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FRANCISCAN FRIARS PRAYING TO ARCHBISHOP SHEEN FOR MIRACLE FOR SCHIAVO
EWTN News ^ | March 11, 2005 | Catholic News Agency

Posted on 03/12/2005 1:06:34 AM PST by Lauren BaRecall

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To: B Knotts

That's ok! :o) There are many people who have sincere questions about this topic.


51 posted on 03/12/2005 11:49:37 AM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: CouncilofTrent
I always figure that trolls help us keep the threads bumped! :o)

Shhhh, he's helping us!

52 posted on 03/12/2005 11:52:47 AM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: FL_engineer

Thanks for posting the "swallow info" on this thread. :o)


53 posted on 03/12/2005 11:54:26 AM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: FL_engineer
He has deceived you into thinking that you have an authority that you don't have, Michael. You don't have it. You don't have any authority to starve Terri.

And neither does Judge Greer.

Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above....

John 19:10-11 (King James Version)

54 posted on 03/12/2005 12:15:16 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: Capriole
I'm not meaning to be especially hostile, but we Catholics get this stuff over and over in the news forum, and your initial tone sounded like more of an attack to me. If you were being sincere, please accept my apology.

If you are sincerely interested in how most Christians (e.g., Catholics and Orthodox) understand the Communion of Saints, read a couple of these brief explanatory tracts:


The Intercession of the Saints
Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?

And as Bishop Sheen would say, "Peace be to you."

55 posted on 03/12/2005 12:17:14 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: The Lumster
I'm not bashing anyone but I do reject the traditions of men when they stand in contradiction to the word of God.

Good. That means you reject Sola Scriputra.

56 posted on 03/12/2005 12:18:07 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: DManA

Hmmm. I'm going to have to look that one up!

Right now, I know it's something I'd never do. I wouldn't sign my life away to open interpretations.


57 posted on 03/12/2005 12:18:32 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: Lauren BaRecall
Sorry. I hadn't had my coffee yet, and may have been a bit too crabby to post.

I'm sensitive to anything I perceive as an attack on Bishop Sheen.

58 posted on 03/12/2005 12:20:07 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: The Lumster

Requesting intercession from a deceased saint (a member of the Body of Believers who has passed over into eternity) has nothing to do with the occult.

Please see my post #48.


59 posted on 03/12/2005 12:23:51 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: 8mmMauser

I see your bump, and raise you a bump! :o)


60 posted on 03/12/2005 12:25:01 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: Capriole

"Why are they praying to a deceased human being instead of to God? Why not ask God for His help?"

Very good question.
He did win a popularity contest but only God knows what is in a person's heart and mind.


61 posted on 03/12/2005 12:28:17 PM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (When you compromise with evil, evil wins. AYN RAND)
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To: churchillbuff

Jesus loved His Mother so much that she didn't even have to ask. All she said was, "They have no wine."

She was pre-figured in the Word of God, as the Queen Mother who sat at Solomon's right hand.


62 posted on 03/12/2005 12:29:01 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: gopwinsin04

We can pray to St. Jude, too! :o)


63 posted on 03/12/2005 12:31:18 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: sweetliberty

They are. Please re-read the prayer at the beginning of this thread.


64 posted on 03/12/2005 12:32:46 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: queenkathy
Thanks for your interest and good will. Please see my post #48 for an explanation. :o)
65 posted on 03/12/2005 12:35:16 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: Capriole

Please understand, dear sister, that many of our fellow posters who are Catholic have been very harrassed on FR for believing different articles of faith.

They are not being adverse to you, but rather steeling themselves because they have learned to expect a blow.

Welcome to an exploration of the Catholic faith! :o)


66 posted on 03/12/2005 12:40:54 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: Lauren BaRecall

OK, well I'll call your bump.


So bump, bump, bump, for Terri and the Franciscans..


67 posted on 03/12/2005 12:44:03 PM PST by 8mmMauser (Vade satana)
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To: Lauren BaRecall

The best thing about watching Bishop Sheen's TV show was that our extremely divisive family would gather around the TV set. There was no fighting or bickering, which usually went on 24/7. I so much appreciated that time when there was peace in the family. Bishop Sheen had the ability, at least in my family, to speak to both the Catholics and Protestants, and most likely had the ability to speak to people of all religions and nationalities.


68 posted on 03/12/2005 12:45:13 PM PST by tob2 (Old Fossil and Proud of It!)
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To: B Knotts

Good one! *grin*


69 posted on 03/12/2005 12:47:03 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: NYer
"There are not over a hundred people...who hate the Roman Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church"

     -Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
70 posted on 03/12/2005 12:47:25 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: B Knotts

That's ok! I've been so busy on the Terri threads that I'm getting a bit desperate for a cup, myself! LOL! :o)


71 posted on 03/12/2005 1:11:35 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: The Lumster
One mediator - not many. If you think you need "some allies" other than Christ you minimize his great sacrifice.

One Mediator, many intercessors, who are intercessors by virtue of the Sacrifice of Christ.

If this is true that we need no "allies" among the saints (the Body of Believers), then our prayers for each other mean nothing, are to no avail, and are an insult to God. I could go only to Jesus and only pray for myself.

It is the VERY SACRIFICE of CHRIST that has conquered sin and death. If Christ conquered DEATH, both spiritual and physical death, then how could it be possible that the same spiritual abilities we had in life, namely the privilege of making intercession, could be lost by passing over into eternity?

Since all hinges on the Sacrifice of Jesus, how can it be minimized by using the spiritual ability of making intercession that God has given us, both in physical life and afterwards?

72 posted on 03/12/2005 1:35:26 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: krunkygirl

Franciscan Bump!


73 posted on 03/12/2005 1:37:30 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: MarMema

Amen!


74 posted on 03/12/2005 1:39:48 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: 8mmMauser

I'll bump your bump!


75 posted on 03/12/2005 1:42:36 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: Capriole
Also, here is an explanation of the Communion of Saints, and the intercession thereof, from an Orthodox perspective here:

The Saints of the Orthodox Church

76 posted on 03/12/2005 1:44:09 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: Lauren BaRecall

Coffee bump back to you.


77 posted on 03/12/2005 1:44:28 PM PST by MarMema ("America may have won the battles, but the Nazis won the war." Virginia Delegate Bob Marshall)
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To: tob2

He did. He could speak to a universal audience. And he knew when to be gentle, or get really tough. No PC there! And when he spoke, you knew what the Catholic Church really taught.

People of different faiths, and Catholics alike, all loved him. Above all, Bishop Sheen spoke to the truth that God places in every heart.

He always ended his shows with, "God Love You!"


78 posted on 03/12/2005 1:51:10 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: MarMema

I still didn't get that cup of coffee, yet!


79 posted on 03/12/2005 1:52:02 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: B Knotts

THIS is the TRUTH!


80 posted on 03/12/2005 1:53:48 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: MarMema; Lauren BaRecall
It's afternoon...have a couple Peet's Caffè Mochas.


81 posted on 03/12/2005 1:55:19 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: The Lumster; NYer

Something I just thought of:

We are a "chosen race, a Royal Priesthood, a people set apart" (and that IS Biblical), and therefore, we have a share in Christ's work of salvation. This includes making intercession while on earth, and in heaven.


82 posted on 03/12/2005 2:00:08 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: B Knotts

Whoa! Yum! I think I'll have some of that there Life Support! :oD


83 posted on 03/12/2005 2:02:53 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: Lauren BaRecall

With all this bumping going on, people are going to talk....

It used to be a dance.


84 posted on 03/12/2005 2:11:29 PM PST by 8mmMauser (Vade satana)
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To: Lauren BaRecall

“Catholics and some other Christians believe that the ability to make intercession on others' behalf, before the throne of God's Mercy, does not end with death”

I understand that you believe that but you go beyond scripture in so doing. There is no scriptural basis for believing this. It is the tradition of men. I understand that Catholics regard tradition as equal to scripture but I believe you are wrong in that belief.


“One Mediator, many intercessors, who are intercessors by virtue of the Sacrifice of Christ.
If this is true that we need no "allies" among the saints (the Body of Believers), then our prayers for each other mean nothing, are to no avail, and are an insult to God. I could go only to Jesus and only pray for myself.”

There you go again adding to the word. The scripture does not say one mediator many intercessors.

Then you set up a straw man by claiming that I said we need no allies among the saints. What I said was we need no additional allies in Heaven. Jesus is our mediator, not any dead saints



“and therefore, we have a share in Christ's work of salvation”

Whoaaaaaaa Nelly – Now you’ve gone waaaaaaaaay beyond. In fact you have believed the original lie -

Gen 3:4-5
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

We have no part to play in Christs work of atonement and any suggestion that we do is heresy.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


85 posted on 03/12/2005 2:49:58 PM PST by The Lumster
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To: The Lumster
I understand that Catholics regard tradition as equal to scripture but I believe you are wrong in that belief.

Scripture was tradition before it was written down.

There you go again adding to the word. The scripture does not say one mediator many intercessors.

Once again, the scripture does say that we are a Royal Priesthood, and part of fulfilling our Christian vocation in the Royal Priesthood is by making intercession.

Your statements seem to give a limitation on the Word of God. They seem to indicate a literal reading that doesn't acknowledge the hight, breadth, and depth of meaning that is to be found within the Bible. There are, in fact, many layers of meaning.

Then you set up a straw man by claiming that I said we need no allies among the saints. What I said was we need no additional allies in Heaven. Jesus is our mediator, not any dead saints.

I didn't set up a straw man here. Your words did seem to indicate that we do not need allies among the saints. Now it seems that you're saying we do not need allies among the saints who have passed on.

We have no part to play in Christs work of atonement and any suggestion that we do is heresy.

We cannot add to or subtract from Christ's one time, complete, and perfect Sacrifice. However, we do participate in His saving work by virtue of our participation in His Royal Priesthood. Whenever you make intercession for someone, or witness to someone, you are participating in Christ's saving work. Do you see it otherwise?

I think the bottom line of our discussion is the question did Christ really conquer death, and conquer it entirely?

By the way, I think this is a good discussion. :o)

86 posted on 03/12/2005 3:32:15 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: queenkathy
Question: Is this person dead that they are praying to?

They believe he's in heaven. There aren't any dead people in heaven. Jesus Christ himself said so.

87 posted on 03/12/2005 3:39:07 PM PST by Campion
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To: The Lumster
Hebrews 12:1 states that we are surrounded by a great company of witnesses but it does not say that they hear our pleas or intercede on our behalf.

Neither does it say that they are deaf and uncaring. If they are with God, how could they be?

One mediator - not many. If you think you need "some allies" other than Christ you minimize his great sacrifice.

Tell it to Paul, who had this annoying habit of asking other people to pray for him. He evidently did not know how much this insulted Jesus, but we trust you'll set him straight.

Oh, and, btw, if you actually read the passage in 1 Tm 2 where it talks about the "one mediator" in context, you'll find that Paul is even there commanding his intercessory prayer heresy, right there in verses 1 and 2, where he commands prayer for "kings and all who are in high positions". Seems like he actually thinks that Christians interceding for each other and even for pagans before the throne of Christ, so that He can mediate those prayers to the Father, glorifies Jesus. However, I'm glad you've set us straight and explained just what an insult that practice really is to him.

88 posted on 03/12/2005 3:49:00 PM PST by Campion
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To: Lauren BaRecall; The Lumster
We are a "chosen race, a Royal Priesthood, a people set apart" (and that IS Biblical), and therefore, we have a share in Christ's work of salvation. This includes making intercession while on earth, and in heaven.

You are so correct and kudos on an excellent catholic apologetics response throughout this thread. I will post a separate thread on this topic and will bump you both to it. Perhaps "that" will clarify matters more.

89 posted on 03/12/2005 4:01:52 PM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: Lauren BaRecall; NYer; Salvation
Speaking of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, I was just at a mass today celebrated by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. He's the president of Good Council Homes,
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1175984/posts?page=54#54
I've done volunteer work for them in the past and was invited to the celebration.
90 posted on 03/12/2005 5:16:57 PM PST by Coleus (Abortion and Euthanasia, Don't Democrats just kill ya! Kill babies, Save the Bears!!)
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To: Lauren BaRecall

Just a follow up question here. So do you think that when someone dies and goes to heaven, that they are aware of what is going on here? If that is the case, I would think it would bring great sadness if one of their loved ones was experiencing difficulty. I just think that I'm so careful because to pray to someone who died and ask them for help could open the door to someone who wants to believe their loved one is right there with them, talking to them etc. Like Sylvia Browne. It's too easy for some people to start glorifying the dead. Again, looking for answer here. Not trying to start anything.


91 posted on 03/12/2005 5:33:37 PM PST by queenkathy
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To: The Lumster
There is no scriptural basis for believing this.

Really? How about "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

If Christians stop being able to pray for one another and love one another when they are separated by physical death, I'd say death has quite a sting, and the grave has quite a victory.

What I said was we need no additional allies in Heaven. Jesus is our mediator, not any dead saints

"You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God ... have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."--Mt 22:29,31,32

If you call my brothers and sisters in heaven "dead," you are calling Jesus a liar.

92 posted on 03/12/2005 5:42:53 PM PST by Campion
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To: Coleus
How is Fr. Groeschel doing? Is he well recovered from his accident?

He wrote the foreword to a Scott Hahn book I just finished reading. . . . sort of a Seal of Approval as far as I'm concerned . . .

93 posted on 03/12/2005 5:45:16 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother

He didn't look to well on the other hand he is alive and continuing his ministry...It's a miracle he's still with us.


94 posted on 03/12/2005 5:48:36 PM PST by Coleus (Abortion and Euthanasia, Don't Democrats just kill ya! Kill babies, Save the Bears!!)
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To: queenkathy
That's a good question. I would suggest a very fine book that gives one answer to this question . . . C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce. (It's also a great read and not a long book - a little gem from a

The narrator finds himself on a bus ride from Hell to the outskirts of Heaven, where the Ghosts/Poor Souls are given a chance to renounce their sins and "enter into joy".

After an encounter between a Ghost and a saint (his late wife) in which the saint is unsuccessful in persuading him to forgo his sin and join her in Heaven, the narrator asks his guide (George MacDonald - whose books are also well worth reading) if it is "fair" that she feels no sorrow or compassion for the lost Ghost. MacDonald responds, "Would you rather he retained the power to hurt her? He used it many and many a time in their mortal life." He adds that Hell is so incomprehensible because it is so nearly nothing, in comparison with the joys of Heaven - "if you took all the hatred and sorrow of Hell and put it into the consciousness of that wee bird over there, it would be swallowed up."

As the Lady Saint said, "I am in Love, and out of it I will not go."

I think this also answers the question about communicating with the dead. Saints tend to send "signs", but rarely communicate directly.

And Lewis was not even Catholic, but Anglican.

95 posted on 03/12/2005 6:02:32 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Coleus

I hope he continues to recover. I really didn't hold out much hope for him after the initial reports of the accident - it is indeed a miracle, much less has killed much younger men outright.


96 posted on 03/12/2005 6:20:34 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Coleus

I'm VERY glad to hear that he has recovered enough to celebrate Mass in public. I hadn't heard anything for awhile.


97 posted on 03/12/2005 6:48:37 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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To: Capriole

Episcopalians have intercessory prayer. Last I heard, they were still protestants.


98 posted on 03/12/2005 7:02:32 PM PST by EDINVA (i)
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To: The Lumster

"One mediator - not many. If you think you need "some allies" other than Christ you minimize his great sacrifice."

You just summed up the crux of the matter between Prots and RC's.


99 posted on 03/12/2005 7:05:57 PM PST by bonfire
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To: queenkathy
I can tell that you're sincerely looking for an answer. I can also tell you that I'm the type of person who wouldn't want to get involved with spiritualism, and the occult. It scares the he!! out of me to even THINK of it for 5 seconds, and I don't want to go THERE.

I have the impression that you don't want to go anywhere dangerous, and yet you are trying to find out if you can legitimately have a continued, albeit changed, closeness with your mother. Having been a Catholic all my life it's just part of me to know that the communion of saints is entirely separate from the world of the occult. I can only imagine that you are torn between the possibility of having closeness with your mother, and the possibility that if you move towards it, you may find out that it's wrong to go in that direction.

I think I have the answer for you. Do you remember the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:22-26 (King James Version)

****************************************

Right away, we can see that in verses 23 and 24 Lazarus and the rich man are in two separate places, and their conditions are vastly different.

In verse 26 Jesus tells us that there is a great chasm between heaven and hell and there is no crossing over.

What the question boils down to, is that you want to know if your mother is saved, for if she is resting on the Heart of Jesus, what would be the danger to you of speaking to her there? If your thoughts are lifted to heaven, how could you possibly be leaving yourself open to the occult? You would have to purposely solicit the occult to put yourself in danger.

I would say that if your mother was a basically good, God loving woman, that it is not unreasonable for you to think of her as being in heaven. There is no way to know this for certain, baring an undisputable sign from God, until you get there yourself. To make up for this uncertainty, the only thing you can do is trust the Divine Mercy of Jesus Christ.

Go to God, and hash this out with Him. Re-read and pray over these Lazarus/rich man verses in your own Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to His truth, and ask Him to help you see if my answer to you is right or wrong, or if he has another answer. Wait upon the Lord for His answer - He may answer you quickly, or prepare you a bit for receiving his truth. Be at peace, because God WILL give you an answer.

Above all, trust in His Mercy, and rest assured of His love for you.

So do you think that when someone dies and goes to heaven, that they are aware of what is going on here? If that is the case, I would think it would bring great sadness if one of their loved ones was experiencing difficulty.

Those in heaven are blessed with a perfected joy, and they are also blessed with perfected love. Although they don't experience sadness as we do, they love so much more. They know what's going on with us, and they make intercession for us. :o)

100 posted on 03/12/2005 8:15:22 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Let me go indulge myself with a bit of chocolate Haagen-Dazs Life Support.)
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