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Newt Targets Tenure: Proposals to Fire All "Anti-American" Professors (note source)
Revolutionary Worker Online ^ | March 13, 2005

Posted on 03/13/2005 8:48:53 AM PST by billorites

On February 25, the prominent Republican thinker Newt Gingrich gave a speech at the leading conservative think-tank American Enterprise Institute (AEI). Gingrich, who is a former Congressman and Republican majority leader of the House of Representatives, is now preparing for his presidential run in 2008.

His sharp comments on Professor Ward Churchill and the future of academic freedom in the U.S. were reprinted in the conservative magazine National Review :

"Ward Churchill is a viciously anti-American demagogue. He has every right to free speech, and I support his free speech. We should give him free speech by not paying him. You don't need tenure in this country anyway. The idea that he would be oppressed without tenure is nonsense. There are 75 whacked-out foundations that would hire him for life. Dozens of Hollywood stars would hold fundraisers for him. His life will become a film by Michael Moore. The question here, is `What obligation does society have to fund its own sickness?' ...Tenure did not exist before the twentieth century, and we had free speech before then. You could introduce a bill that says, proof that you're anti-American is grounds for dismissal."

Let's break this down: Gingrich is calling for a law that will empower the government to fire professors on political grounds.

And, of course, in keeping with nature of Republican double-speak: he insists that imposing loyalty trials on universities is not any threat to "free speech."

To make this argument, Gingrich is deliberately pointing to the distinction between "free speech" and "tenure."

Free speech refers to the legal right of someone in the U.S. to speak or say their views without being jailed or censored by the government . It is based on the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Tenure is part of the protection of free speech that has to do with intellectuals. Tenure protects thinkers and researchers from being fired for what they say or write, once they are attached to universities as "full professors."

It sets up universities to be an especially protected zone of inquiry and debate.

This modern institution of tenure has its roots in the important struggle during the European "Middle Ages"-- where university communities literally fought against having their members tortured or burned at the stake by government and church authorities. (In those days, under the rule of absolute monarchs and papal authorities, whole areas of investigation like human anatomy, astronomy, chemistry, and medicine were often considered heresy, witchcraft, subversive and illegal. (Just one example from that history: Servetus, the man who discovered that blood circulates through the lungs, was burned at the stake in 1553 in Geneva, officially for his heretical views on the Holy Trinity.)

So now, in the twenty-first century, Gingrich is calling for the abolition of tenure. This amounts to a frontal assault on the very notion that universities should be a zone dedicated to open and unrestrained inquiry and debate.

This is a deliberate stab into the very heart of "academic freedom." Of course everyone who is familiar with university life knows that there is intense politicking and pressure at every university (after all, we do live in class society!); and U.S. history is full of examples where the government and the ruling class intervened to suppress controversial radical anti-system views on campus and persecute radical thinkers and professors.

But carrying out Gingrich's proposal would deeply change the fabric of intellectual life. It is a call to return to an intellectual Dark Ages--where thought was legally enslaved to the powerful.

"I want him fired"

A few days after his AEI speech, Gingrich appeared on Fox's "O'Reilly Factor." It was just a few days before the University of Colorado was formally considering charges against Ward Churchill, and Gingrich again weighed in, to increase the political pressure on the school.

Gingrich again called for firing Churchill from his professor's job, and specifically for the political content of Churchill's writings about 9/11. And Gingrich specifically argued that universities that take government funds (i.e., the so-called "taxpayers' dollars") should have political standards on who can teach and what they can say (or even write) publicly.

GINGRICH (misquoting Churchill's article on 9/11): But to compare the 3,100 people who died in that attack on 9/11 to Adolf Eichmann, I think, is so despicable, so hateful, so anti-American that the taxpayers of Colorado shouldn't be paying his salary. I think it's that straightforward..

O'REILLY: Doesn't that say to the rest of the world we are an oppressive society because, if we tolerate someone like that, does--don't--that just strengthens our freedoms here.

GINGRICH: Bill, I can tolerate his saying it, but, as a taxpayer, I don't want to pay for it. Taxpayers don't have to pay for lunatic professors to have a salary to miseducate their children. If he's having classes where he tells young Coloradans that Americans who died from a terrorist attack were like little Adolf Eichmann's, I want him fired. Why would you want somebody like that paid by the taxpayers?

O'REILLY: I'm not sure that...

GINGRICH: Now, if a private school wants to hire him, fine, let some private school pick him up, you know.

O'REILLY: OK. I'm not sure that he said that in the classroom. If he did, I'd be with you. We give everybody the presumption of innocence. This was an essay that he wrote. We don't have any reports that he brings this kind of extreme outlook into the classroom. If we get it, I'll change my opinion. But right now...

GINGRICH: All right.

O'REILLY: Right now, I don't want to punish the man in the eyes of the world. I want to kind of say, look, we despise him, we shun him, he's a pariah, but we're not going to take retaliatory action.

GINGRICH: Bill, I'm shocked at your thought, though. We're not crushing him. We're simply saying he...

O'REILLY: Oh, come on.

GINGRICH: ...shouldn't earn a living--he shouldn't...

O'REILLY: He lost his chairmanship, and now you want him to lose his job? That's crushing the man. And I'm not feeling sorry for him. I'm just saying that's what it is. You boot him out of there, that's -- you know, you're crushing him. But, look, why do you think that a college like Hamilton and a college like the University of Colorado at Boulder would even entertain the man in the first place?

GINGRICH: Because the American left has an entire litany of despising America, talking viciously about America, saying really destructive things. I mean, just watch Michael Moore's tours across Europe where he slams America again and again and again, and the American left--this is a totally acceptable way to talk about America, and that's why, I think, it's a good time to draw the line in the sand and say we don't have to pay them. I'm not asking for censorship. I'm just saying taxpayers don't have to pay people who say these kind of hateful and vicious things about America.

O'REILLY : Well, he is a tenured professor. You know that. They can't fire him.

GINGRICH: But tenure is a purely artificial construct invented early in the last century. It has no long-term meaning. It is not a constitutional right. And somebody who says the things he said, I think--if he's not prepared to withdraw them and apologize for them, I can't imagine why the taxpayers ought to pay his salary.

O'REILLY: Well, the regents are meeting at the University of Colorado on Thursday, and we, of course, will follow that story.

(Full transcripts of this Feb. 1 interview are on Gingrich's own newt.org)

*****

Extreme methods and demagogy are on full display. We have to learn to recognize them and answer them.

The work and beliefs of Ward Churchill, a scholar and activist with a life's work on the genocide against Native Americans, is distorted down to some sound bite about "Eichmanns." And Churchill is turned into a stand- in for all of academia (which as a whole is under fire here).

The value of tenure--and the whole importance of open inquiry--is dismissed with a cynical wave of the hand. The freedom of debate is reduced, in a know-nothing way, to a bizarre budgetary matter.

Millions of people are being told to think, "Why should my tax dollars go to teaching ideas that I don't agree with!"

(Just think what the intellectual and scientific world would be like if those standards were really applied!! What kind of evolutionary theory would get taught? What kind of quantum physics? What kind of history and politics? What would philosophy look like? What about poetry, art and filmmaking?)

According to Gingrich, firing radical professors for off-campus writings will not chill "free speech" in the larger society--which, if you think about it five seconds, is ridiculous. And it is, in fact, the opposite of the truth: since chilling free speech and research (especially radical and challenging speech!) is exactly his conscious political intent !

And then, as the punchline, out pops a real-world political agenda:

Gingrich, influential Republican leader and tactician of law-making, is actually proposing a specific bill here that would set up loyalty trials for university intellectuals .

Just making this extreme proposal is intended to "make people look over their shoulders"--starting with those whose work defies those now in power, but including those in authority who have to decide whether to hire or fund controversial thinkers.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: academia; aei; antiamericanism; fired; freespeech; gingrich; newt; oreilly; radicalleft; tenuredradicals; wardchurchill

1 posted on 03/13/2005 8:48:53 AM PST by billorites
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To: billorites
Maybe we should have a congressional un-American activities committee. OK, I just wanted to be first.

Well really! What's Gingrich's thinking here?

Fire him because he's lied on his resume and has several counts of plagiarism but academic freedom means he gets to say outrageous stuff.

2 posted on 03/13/2005 8:55:19 AM PST by StACase
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: StACase
"Well really! What's Gingrich's thinking here?"

IMHO, What Newt is really touting, is for colleges and Universities to clean up their act with these anti-Americans and other plagiarists amongst them - Or Else! Tenured or otherwise, teachers who lie and cheat should be given their walking papers and I suspect some of those employees are getting right down nervous as well as the Boards who support same.

4 posted on 03/13/2005 9:10:08 AM PST by yoe
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To: StACase

Not TRUE! His students are there for an education, not to be filled with outrageous loonie leftist propaganda disguised as the truth. He is an incompetent pure and simple and should be fired for that very gross incompetitance.


5 posted on 03/13/2005 9:10:48 AM PST by aspiring.hillbilly
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To: billorites
As a tenured professor, I can see both sides of this. First, let me point out I'm at a PRIVATE school, so the "tax-funded" comments probably don't apply much, although as we all know, there are very few truly "private" schools that don't slurp at the government trough, all the time.

Second, I can say that at the few schools I've taught at (two universities, been a grad student or TA at two others), I have never seen a faculty or administration officially try to silence a tenured prof. There are lots of "water cooler" comments, and lots of harassment ("Diversity" meetings etc) but no official attempts to control what is said in the classroom or on a podium outside the classroom. This goes for both faculy of the left and right.

It is true that if you are MARGINAL and CONSERVATIVE, you are fair game. If you don't publish much or have average teaching, you open the door for them to deny you tenure or promotion, probably much faster than liberal profs. However, it usually never gets to that because most of the conservatives are weeded out in the search committee process. Very few conservatives get through these committees.

All that said, if you allow administrations, for whatever reason, to go after profs for what they say in or out of the classroom (as opposed to clear morals violations or lawbreaking behavior) then trust me on this: the VERY FEW conservatives on college campuses will be eradicated in a heartbeat. It is ONLY tenure (and excellent production) that ensures that they keep their jobs. Yeah, there would be some Ward Churchill-type scalps taken, but on a year-to-year basis, conservatives would get culled out.

6 posted on 03/13/2005 9:11:37 AM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: StACase

Exactly right. WC has violated school and state laws by LYING on his job app and resume, and that's enough to can him.


7 posted on 03/13/2005 9:12:22 AM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: billorites
Copied from that site..
About the, "Revolutionary Communist Party, USA"...

IF these guys are against what Newt said... Its got to be good and beneficial for the United States..

That site is like political porn...

8 posted on 03/13/2005 9:25:41 AM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: billorites

I'd be all for it, 'cept I'm not in charge.

It's just stupid to consider laws like these. For one thing, having the gubmint decide who gets fired from what's really an indirect institution is just ludicrous. There's plenty else that can be done. In the case of Fugly Ward, the public spoke out, was heard, and the U is taking all kinds of hits on it.

The public has to keep it up. Just like we have to keep on top of our mis-representatives in DC to stop making stupid decisions about everything from birth to death.


9 posted on 03/13/2005 9:41:52 AM PST by AmericanChef
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To: LS
Nah, CNN is profitable.

MSNBC is the Amtrak of news.

:^)

10 posted on 03/13/2005 9:42:14 AM PST by SAJ
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To: StACase

bump


11 posted on 03/13/2005 9:43:51 AM PST by missthethunder
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To: billorites
Gingrich ... is now preparing for his presidential run in 2008.

[Snicker] Why isn't Newt still in Congress? Oh, yeh, ethics violation. That'll go over well in the primaries.
12 posted on 03/13/2005 9:49:08 AM PST by TomGuy (America: Best friend or worst enemy. Choose wisely.)
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To: LS
[ Yeah, there would be some Ward Churchill-type scalps taken, but on a year-to-year basis, conservatives would get culled out. ]

A short term approach or analysis... (your job)...

More important is the press would get all pissy faced over this.. and alert people to the issue.. especially parents, so-called conservative parents. Long term.. this liberal Nazism would get exposed somewhat.. There is ONLY David Horowitz up in arms about this, as far as I know.. Americas colleges are leftist re-education camps pure and simple.. The illusion that the campus is a marketplace of ideas is propaganda.. Whats being done, almost nothing.. Any exposure would be good..

There are very few "conservative"" profs. anyway.. What is a conservative ?.. The terms liberal and conservative are loose cannons anyway.. they can mean about anything.. If the proper light was put on the/this subject your job might be threatened short term, maybe even long term but at least the boil would be "pricked".. Been festering a long time..

Academia is as bad or worse than the MSM not as democrat dupes but as willing members of the third way or the fifth column.. I disagree with you.. Lancing this "boil" probably won't happen YET.. but "pricking it" could happen.. Newt is a prof. himself.. and knows the problems intimately.

Might cost you your job though.. What say ye.?.

13 posted on 03/13/2005 9:50:18 AM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: billorites

> Millions of people are being told to think,
> "Why should my tax dollars go to teaching
> ideas that I don't agree with!"

And phasing out government schools, as well as ending all
federal funding for private schools (except for specific
results-oriented R&D), makes this entire debate just go
away.

... along with zillions of other "ought wallowing" issues.

By the way, is there any evidence that events like the
Churchie scandal are opening parents eyes to the agendas
of these so-called institutes of higher education?


14 posted on 03/13/2005 10:00:55 AM PST by Boundless
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To: billorites
Why are my tax dollars being used to keep a tenured professor in his job when he slanders my country and my values?

The Left will answer this question citing his freedom of speech, and the fact that lots of liberal tax payers don't mind slander at all.

As far as his freedom of speech goes, he has that right. But, not with my tax dollars.

As far as liberals who don't mind the slander and agree with him, that's too one sided. If Churchill is to stay at his tenured job then UC should spend some of my tax dollars hiring Conservative professors to balance out the liberal's slander.

I mean that's what the Left is all about isn't it - diversity and multiculturalism?
15 posted on 03/13/2005 10:22:36 AM PST by Noachian (Impeach a Judge - Save a Nation)
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To: billorites
...that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law... so help me God. From the Citizenship Oath

What these (braying) jackasses all forget is that when you cross the line from dissent into blatant anti-americanism you are violating your oath of citizenship and can not only be censured, I'm pretty sure you can be jailed as well.

16 posted on 03/13/2005 10:34:13 AM PST by johnb838 ("You Have Ruled, Now Let Us See You Enforce" Need some wood?)
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To: yoe

Hah, hah, hah, the left thinks we've gone so right wing... we have not yet BEGUN to go right wing. Especially if we get attacked again.


17 posted on 03/13/2005 10:35:30 AM PST by johnb838 ("You Have Ruled, Now Let Us See You Enforce" Need some wood?)
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To: hosepipe
First, this isn't the solution. Ending tenure would not, in any way, "reform" the universities to be more honest, reliable, etc., because the faculty still control the hiring. Until or unless somehow trustees or parents actually hire faculty (fat chance) nothing would change. All that would happen---regardless of what happens to "my job" (and by the way, it was liberals who hired me, promoted me, and gave me tenure, based on my work)---would be that the same liberal committees that dominate tenure and promotion would evaluate and pass judgment on annual contracts or 3-, 4-, or 5-year contracts.

Second, you are missing the central fact the faculty controls the terms of hiring and promotion (and trust me, now matter how legislatures or trustees word any "enforcement" legislation, the faculty STILL would be the ones to interpret it). Take, for example, "Western Civ." courses. We (and many, many other schools) had a WC requirement---but it is impossible to regulate WHAT individual faculty say about western civ. So many of them taught it, and taught it cricially (i.e., WC destroyed the world). Now, unless or until you have parents and administrators in every class taking notes, you aren't going to control that except through the hiring process. (See #1 above).

3) It is the nature of most conservatives NOT to go into academics. Newt wasn't tenured (I don't think) and was not, to my knowledge, a full time faculty member. The last such person to serve in Congress was, I think, Phil Crane of Illinois or Dick Armey, both of whom were college profs. In short, merely doing away with tenure in the short run would hurt what few conservatives are in universities (and there are some) while at the same time do absolutely nothing about the fundamental problem, which is that the universities are NOT subject to market forces. That is where any "reform" of higher education must start---by making students pay for their education without "aid" or scholarships. This is the conclusion of Richard Vedder's study, "Going Broke by Degree."

18 posted on 03/13/2005 10:47:26 AM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: LS
[ First, this isn't the solution. Ending tenure would not, in any way, "reform" the universities to be more honest, reliable, etc., because the faculty still control the hiring. ]

Wrong...
Tenure flys in the face of capitalism, thats why there IS tenure.. Its like a Super Union.. Enabling the same dialectic just like unions do.. Commies love unions for just that reason.. Its feeds their Utopian concepts.. Did I say SUPER UNION.. AH! yes I did..

The same mangement or management sorry, will probably perform the same way, true. But light THIS situation is muted by many other world affairs.. Tenure is at the base of America problems.. especially collegiate problems.. If your pro-union then you will be pro-tenure.. for the same reasons.. If you are anti-union, like me, you MUST be anti-tenure.. Lets call a spade a spade..

Like you almost CAN'T fire a federal worker.. because of the Federal Workers Party Union.. for damned near anything.. same thing.. The American Teachers Union(s) are a POX on the American education system.. Tenure.. same thing..

The basic idea of tenure rewards incompetence not excellence.. as fleeting as excellence is.. A job for life rewards laziness, like socialism does.. Socialism is slavery by givernment... and Tenure is slavery too incompetence..

There was a time for Unions, now is not that time.. especially of Super Unions.. Reforming the University's will happen gradually AFTER tenure is trashed. BUT not until then.. Since America slowly eroding to socialism the chances of that happening is not great..

19 posted on 03/13/2005 11:24:08 AM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: LS

I agree with you. Conservatives need to study educational governance and find ways to make public schools serve public interests. As a historian, Newt Guerinrich is well qualified to evaluate the Ward Churchill record, but that does not mean O'Reilly will allow time for it. I am a former academic and historian, and I watched the man for an hour on c-span. A professor should be able to plan a very good one hour presentation, but he did not. What I saw was appalling. He was incoherent, disjointed, and abusive, and hostile. He doesn't repect any one's rights. I am amazed that he is still in the classroom. He should have been suspended and he should be fired. He's embarassed himself and his college, and when he had a chance to redeem himself on national tv he blew it imho.


20 posted on 03/13/2005 11:32:32 AM PST by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: LS
I agree with your comments and would add that the main beneficiaries of ending tenure would be academic administrators, who would have faculty entirely at their mercy...and administrators tend to be even more ideologically-driven and politically correct than the faculty.

Tenure cannot be taken away from those who already have it (barring malfeasance on the part of individual faculty members)...it could only be denied to future hires. That would make an academic career much less attractive to the best and brightest, and would do nothing about the proportion of leftists coming out of graduate schools.

Right now one problem with universities is the high proportion of courses being taught by part-time adjuncts and temporary hires...eliminating tenure would make faculty turnover much more common, without any increase in intellectual diversity, and probably make for an academically poorer experience for the serious students at a given institution.

21 posted on 03/13/2005 12:02:01 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: hosepipe
You can rant all you want, and I wouldn't be opposed to ending tenure. But Richard Vedder, a conservative who has written "Going Broke by Degree," discounts any substantial gain to the capitalist aspects of universities caused by tenure. Now, if you have data or facts, I'd like to hear them. But the #1 factor in driving up college costs is not tenure (because faculty only get about 3% of all cost increases, while administration gets about 30% and buildings about 30%), but student aid. That is where reform must start.

You still appear to be clueless about the hiring process, which will in no way be affected by the end of tenure, becuase universities are NOT concerned with price or effectiveness. If they were, removing tenure might (and I still underscore MIGHT) make a difference. But I know some VERY conservative schools with tenure, and it didn't affect their price structure.

Now, explain to me again how even without tenure, the liberal faculty who sit on all the search committees and report to the liberal administrators have an incentive to a) keep and b) hire new conservative faculty?

22 posted on 03/13/2005 12:42:11 PM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: ClaireSolt

Churchill, you mean, not Gingrich, right?


23 posted on 03/13/2005 12:42:48 PM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: billorites

Commies for Churchill. I am shocked, shocked!


24 posted on 03/13/2005 12:47:28 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: Verginius Rufus
Yah. A great place to begin a study of what is wrong with the universities is NOT Newt, but it is Richard Vedder, "Going Broke by Degree." He uses economic multivariate analysis to pinpoint the cost drivers. Hint---it ain't "unionized" faculty salaries. It's administrators/programs and buildings.

For ex., at my school our department had 20 full-time tenured faculty about 20 years ago. Now we have 16, but two or three of them are really functioning part-time because they serve other "programs" and only teach one course in history and often don't serve on our committees, etc.

A "union cartel" argument would make sense IF---but only if---faculty salaries were increasing faster than a) inflation and b) other outlays in the administration. But it isn't close. Most big state schools have 2% salary increases. We have been lucky---we are at about 3%. Admittedly, our benefits costs have skyrocketed (as have all industries and companies). But Vedder shows a consistent DECLINE in the $$ going to faculty, even accounting for bennies. Instead, administrators, and especially "programs" such as psychological help, "special needs," English as a Second Language, and so on have driven costs through the roof. So viewing tenure as a "union card" is marginally correct, at best.

25 posted on 03/13/2005 12:47:34 PM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: LS

However, it usually never gets to that because most of the conservatives are weeded out in the search committee process. Very few conservatives get through these committees

Sounds like the conservatives are already "out".


26 posted on 03/13/2005 2:34:26 PM PST by KingofQue
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To: billorites

BTTT


27 posted on 03/13/2005 3:01:21 PM PST by SweetCaroline (I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me...Philippians 4:13)
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To: LS

Can you tell me why we have tenure at all? I have really never understood it. What does it accomplish? Thank you.


28 posted on 03/13/2005 3:36:03 PM PST by maxwellp
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To: maxwellp
The original idea behind tenure was that academics needed to be free from pressure of the crown or even the civil authorities in order to pursue true knowledge. If, for example, you worked in Massachusetts and came across some remarkable scientific evidence that proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, intelligent life before birth, you wouldn't want to be afraid of making that public, or continuing your research, if you thought that the liberals would fire you.

Likewise---this didn't happen, but it's a good analogy---say Charles Murray had been an untenured academic in a PC state when he wrote "the Bell Curve." He would have been fired for daring to speak heresies.

Sooner or later, tenure does protect legitimate research from social impingement. It allows science to "go where the evidence leads."

While I believe in markets and personally think I would have no trouble competing in a truly open market, I do see the value of tenure in times of social upheaval.

29 posted on 03/13/2005 5:04:05 PM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: LS
[ Now, if you have data or facts, I'd like to hear them. ]

No data, just an anecdotal whining.. I do that..
I hate un-win-able scenario's and when the bad guys win..
I am only open to when the good guys win..

Tenure is just a chess move.. but a good one.. and it puts the good guys in double check.. The good guys shouldn't need tenure.. True, that a bad administration is the source of most of the malfeasance.. This tenure thing could capture attention of the rubes, like me, to a real problem..

Parsing intellectual discussions about the intricacys of running a University will bore the hell out of normal people.. Churchill (and others) being able to run rough shod over logical discourse is hard to touch .. BECAUSE HE IS TENURED.. tenure has BECOME sacrosanct to Universitys.. Touch THAT and you have them by the balls even if they don't have any.. Ok. one ball, the other ball is MONEY and Grants .. Harvard is rife with Churchills.. like Chomsky.. as is Berkeley.. and a buttload of other University's..

The subject of "TENURE" is a touchstone.. not the whole answer but it can be a catalyst for action.. Because one thing is certain a catalyst is needed for change to occur.. The "University's" cannot and will not help itself/themselves.. it must be forced upon them.. Socialism and socialists are NOT open to competing ideologies.. never have been, and never will.. and the system is run by hard core socialists.. not DUPES..

30 posted on 03/13/2005 5:23:50 PM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: StACase
"Maybe we should have a congressional un-American activities committee. OK, I just wanted to be first."

Oooh, poor baby.

Newt hit a sore spot?? Like your @ss?

I say replace "fire" with "indict."

31 posted on 03/13/2005 5:31:14 PM PST by F16Fighter
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To: billorites

Freedom of Speech has nothing to do with tenure. There are limits to free speech. Is a tenured Professor allowed by law to stand up in a movie theater and scream "FIRE!" There are limits that must be set and adhered to. The courts decide which is which.


32 posted on 03/13/2005 6:14:21 PM PST by KingofQue
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To: hosepipe
See, you continue to miss the point. Tenure is NOT the "touchstone." Absence of market forces on the administration is. Doing away with tenure does NOT drive up prices for conservative profs---quite the contrary, it drives up prices for LIBERALS.

Again, the solution is not tenure---it's irrelevant. The solution is to eliminate all funding for STUDENTS. It begins, and ends, as with everything, with the consumer.

And this is not "unwinnable." It is realistic, and until you get a grip on reality, whining about tenure is a smokescreen for adopting policies that truly enact change.

33 posted on 03/14/2005 4:30:28 AM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: LS
[ Again, the solution is not tenure---it's irrelevant. The solution is to eliminate all funding for STUDENTS. It begins, and ends, as with everything, with the consumer. ]

Really... And the chances of that happening soon ARE.?. ZERO, of course..
Have about the chances of that happening as killing Social Security.?...
Inflaming the old entrenched brain washed socialists..

Nah!.. Attacking Tenure is the WAY.. It won't KILL the roaches but it does turn the light on in the kitchen scattering the roaches for the baseboards..

Abrogating tenure as sacrosanct in the education bible sends a message..
The message: We're watching you.. and are presently reviewing education spending in general and federal and state sponsored GRANTS in particular.. The very drama of it all will inspire many parents to review the dispensation of the funds they THROW at the people educating their KIDS.. Corporate sponsored GRANTS can be handled at a later time.

Because they cannot be trusted, that is the administrations cannot be trusted.. The "ENRON" of education has not happened yet.. Abrogating tenure although cosmetic it is still the Elephant with its nose in the tent.. THEN the "ENRON" expose of education just MIGHT happen... Heads can ROLL and the socialist cabal running the place can be eviscerated..

Did I say the "ENRON" of education.. Ah! yes.. I did..
I Want to be the first to use that term... and hopefully not the last..
(A Curly(Howard) shuffle, and a poke in eyes to you my man, [exit stage right])..

34 posted on 03/14/2005 9:15:11 AM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe

Nope. Tenure is irrelevant. It begins with consumers, as with everything.


35 posted on 03/14/2005 9:29:23 AM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: LS
[ Nope. Tenure is irrelevant. It begins with consumers, as with everything. ]

Denial is not a river in Egypt.. The consumers are serfs..
Its the administration's perks that must be overthrown..

The Education "ENRON" is LOOMING... can you hear it..
Just as with "ENRON" its the golden parachutes they are protecting..
Also; like "ENRON" its the higher-ups that must attacked..

The consumers are clueless.. like cross-eyed chickens..
They can cluck all they want they will lay eggs they have no choice in the matter, they are chickens afterall.. TENURE gathers the eggs.. and Socialism cooks the omelet..

36 posted on 03/14/2005 10:20:31 AM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: yoe

What is so sacrosanct about tenure? Does that give you the right to publish anything which is conceived out of thin air? Or to spew any propaganda in your poisoned mind,to your students. True, education should be the expression and opportunity to widen your horizons, but most universities now operate in a very narrow and restricted political horizon.

The education, especially in Liberal Arts,being taught at the universities is loaded with political propaganda and our students, who obviously represent our country's future, should not have to be a captive audience to these screeds without some prospective penalty to those who spew it.


37 posted on 03/14/2005 10:33:11 AM PST by Zivasmate (" A wise man's heart inclines him to his right, but a fool's heart to his left." - Ecclesiastes 10)
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To: hosepipe
Dude, you are the one in denial. You admit you have not facts. You obviously are not in academia; haven't read Vedder's book; have no clue about the statistics. You have no idea how search committees work; why tenure actually protects conservatives; or why the process would be even worse for conservatives (if you don't change anything else) without tenure. Spouting off is one thing. Try some factual data.

Your answer is the consumers are stupid: this, of course, is what the Dems always say with every election loss. The consumers know exactly what they want, and right now they are emphasizing COST over value (i.e., the quality of the education).

There is NOTHING in tenure/hiring stats that indicates it would have much of an impact on the problems.

38 posted on 03/14/2005 10:33:53 AM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: LS
[ Dude, you are the one in denial. You admit you have not facts. You obviously are not in academia; haven't read Vedder's book; have no clue about the statistics. You have no idea how search committees work; why tenure actually protects conservatives; or why the process would be even worse for conservatives (if you don't change anything else) without tenure. Spouting off is one thing. Try some factual data. ]

No facts, true, but I do like to make my "betters" drool with their tongues hanging out.. lisping is just a perk.. it gives me a sense of empowerment.. You are my "better", true.. I'm just a "serf".. a really extreme extremist..

"Do I not bleed like you, or feel pain when pricked", or "feel helpless when un-enabled".?.
Actually, NO, I don't..

I'm a hard head.. I could break things with my head. I'm so dumb that I post mainly for Lurkers.. There are a hundred Lurkers for every poster out here..

Can you feel the earth shaking preparing for the education "ENRON" expose'..
I can.. feels good too... OH! the credit card debt that will lie unpaid when tenure is absolved and heads roll.. makes me almost orgasmic at the thought.. The big houses in default.. The IRA's unrequited, the financial ruin of the left wing professors and RINOs.. makes me jump for joy.. Sure, a few so-called conservatives will be hit too but like they say.. You gotta break some eggs to make an omelet..

(Jaws theme)
The education "ENRON" expose' is begging to HAPPEN...
Collegiate Affirmative action hiring IS racism..
An affirmative action slot placement is the same.
(Jaws theme with tar and feathers and villagers with pitchforks)

39 posted on 03/14/2005 11:13:18 AM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe

And, I rest my case.


40 posted on 03/14/2005 12:00:40 PM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: LS
I believe that you are correct. Tamper with tenure and any conservatives that have survived the committee process will be immediately purged.

What we really need to do is gut the entire University system... or at least cut off Federal funds for 'em. Make colleges dependent on tuition. My understanding is that these days, teaching takes a backseat to grant-writing, and tuition is a drop in the bucket compared t grant money.

The rest of the responsibility belongs to parents and alumni: they need to to send their children and their money to schools that don't support such losers as Ward Churchill.

I don't hold out any hope that this could happen, though.
41 posted on 03/14/2005 12:10:55 PM PST by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: LS
[ And, I rest my case. ]

WAIT... did I tell you about the education "ENRON" expose'.?.
(dogging at his heels like an ankle biter in the persona of Paul Gottfried with that voice)...

Damn, funny looking goatee that guy LS had.
Wonder if it was because of too many face lifts.. Oh!.. well, see ya later dude, or not..

NEXT

42 posted on 03/14/2005 12:11:46 PM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: TomGuy

I used to live in Newt's district. It wasn't his "ethics violation" that made him leave. That never amounted to a hill of beans, especially compared to standard Democrat practices.

Newt didn't run again (in a safe Republican district) 'cause his personal life doesn't stand scrutiny. 'Bout the only differences morally between Newt and Bill Clinton is that Newt didn't rape anyone and that he divorced his wife to marry the intern.
One version of his story has the divorce papers being delivered to his wife just before an operation for cancer. Class act, that.

Newt isn't running. If he's the Republican candidate, get used to saying "President Hillary!".


43 posted on 03/14/2005 12:17:40 PM PST by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: LS

Thank you very much for the explanation.


44 posted on 03/14/2005 3:24:56 PM PST by maxwellp
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To: Little Ray
Yep. Gotta start, as in health care reform, by linking the people who pay (the kids/parents) to the product. That introduces a level of pricing accuracy that exposes what the universities are spending money on (administrators, "programs," and buildings) and what they are not spending it on (us).

Once price competition is introduced at the top by making schools compete for students rather than fooling them with phoney "aid" packages that are nothing more than redistribution and rebates, then competition will follow for better teachers. Once there is competition for teachers, you can do away with tenure because good teachers---liberal or conservative---will be in high demand.

45 posted on 03/14/2005 5:46:04 PM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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