Posted on 03/17/2005 8:19:35 PM PST by buckeyesrule
STATEMENT FROM GRACE TO YOU:
John MacArthur on CNN's NewsNight with Aaron Brown
On Wednesday, March 16, CNN interviewed John MacArthur about The Purpose-Driven Life for a special broadcast of NewsNight with Aaron Brown (Paula Zahn substituting). John agreed to the interview because we saw it as an opportunity to clarify some important gospel truths that have been obscured in all the publicity surrounding the book's popularity.
John's critical comments about the book were brief but substantive. He highlighted some significant points where the thrust of the book is at odds with the message of Scripture. He pointed out, for example, that the true gospel is a call to self-denial, not self-fulfillment. The gospel is a message about redemption, not about life's purpose. The gospel according to Scripture deals with God's law, His grace, human depravity, redemption from sin, justification, sanctification, holiness, the nature of saving faith, and the lordship of Christ. And the true gospel's most essential features are the cross of Christ and the truth of the resurrection. None of those subjects is dealt with adequately or biblically in The Purpose-Driven Life.
In their own post-production editing process, however, CNN removed virtually all the substantive comments from their interview with John MacArthur. A voice-over by the CNN reporter introduced John MacArthur as someone who "preaches the gospel of a stern God," while the subtext identified John as a "skeptic."
CNN also inserted some remarks from secular media experts who seemed to think petty jealousy is the only motive two pastors might possibly have for disagreeing with one another. They made numerical comparisons between Grace Community Church and Saddleback, accompanied by a comment from a local newspaper's religion writer who declared that the difference between Warren and MacArthur was merely a dispute over two different marketing methods.
All of this gave a spin to CNN's interview that utterly misrepresents our concerns about the Purpose-Driven phenomenon. John MacArthur's criticism of this approach is not new, and it is not motivated by anything personal. We have been pleading for a more biblical approach to church leadership and evangelistic ministry for many years. John MacArthur's 1993 book Ashamed of the Gospel sounded this very alarm two years before Rick Warren published his first book describing his philosophy of ministry.
So the concerns we have raised are biblical and substantive, and not merely personal criticisms of Rick Warren. We wish the CNN interview had made those facts clear. We have certainly tried our best to make them clear.
Phil Johnson
I'll let you decide if this belongs in the religion section or not.
I missed this show for two reasons, 1.) March Madness and 2.) Aaron Brown and his blatant Liberal bias is unwatchable.
Well actually the show was on wednesday night....NIT Madness! LOL!
...or should I say Alias madness!
What are Freeper opinions of Rick Warren and his book?
I have my own issues with this book, which I'm currently listening to the audio version of. However, my difficulties with it aren't anything I'm going to press on anyone else who might benefit from the positive aspects of the book. Sounds like the guy criticizing it here is nitpicking because it isn't the book he would have written.
Rick Warren and his books have helped a lot of people. Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them. The books help people. Enough said.
I have read many christian self-fulfillment books myself which I don't like. I haven't read Warren's book but it sounds like it's in that category.
The gospel is a message about redemption, not about life's purpose.I have nothing but respect for McArthur, but this statement is nonsense. If it were true, it would indeed make a pretty good slam on Warren's premise; but it is no more than a soundbyte, and a meaningless one at that.
I can see how some would see this as a petty argument from the silly issues that are being raised. I'm sure there is some valid criticism against TPDL, so why not raise that instead?
And, I can say that it has been one of the best things I have done in years.
I haven't read Mr. McAurthur's book, so I have nothing to compare it to. And, perhaps, because it is Lent or because I have been doing my daily devotion more devotely while reading the book, but The Purpose-Driven Life has had an important impact on me.
And, there's only 1 book that should be taken as scripture: it's called The Bible.
I'm sure that Rick Warren's book (or any of Mr. MacArthur's books, for that matter) could probably be criticized for getting something (or even several things) wrong.
That, though, doesn't seem to be the real issue here. It is CNN's package of the story. They want to show 2 "preachers" at odds. They want to show the "internal strife" that is ripping through the religious community over this or that book.
They do the same thing whenever there is even the slightest disagreement on political policy. One Republican thinks X, another thinks almost X. To CNN, this represents a "major rift" in the party.
CNN is a collection of leftist scum who wouldn't know the inside of a church or synagogue if it hit them in the face.
And, only by the Grace of God and the sacrifice of my Lord, Jesus Christ, do the people who produce this propaganda even have a chance at walking into God's great Kingdom. I only pray that they get it at some point.
Warren's book is hardly a "self-fulfillment" book. However, it would be accurate to say that at least one of the book's theses would be that your self-fulfillment comes in finding God's purpose for your life, with the emphasis being on God's purpose rather than your fulfillment.
I am not a cheerleader for "The Purpose Driven Life", but I can hardly see how Christians would find the book offensive, or even unscriptural. It certainly has many, many strengths, and has helped many people. Is is perfect? By no means.
By comparison, Oswald Chamber's book "My Utmost For His Highest" is also a wonderful book which has been used in the life of millions. But it too, is not perfect.
"What are Freeper opinions of Rick Warren and his book?"
As far as Ronzo is concerned, it is a most perplexing book for me to read. There are some sections that are so goofey it makes me want to throw the book in the garbage, and then there are other sections so brilliant and insightful one is honestly amazed.
While Warren has a five-fold purpose as the thesis of his book, there's really just one purpose: the purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy a relationship with his Creator forever. (A paraphrase of Question 1 from the Westminster Shorter Catechism.)
Overall, I would say this book reads like a systematic theology for dummies. But since there are so many Christians ignorant of their faith, and many non-Christians curious about Jesus, then this is EXACTLY the type of book that many people need.
But, even I get some really good stuff out of it, and I've been a serious Christian for over twenty years.
There are much, much worst Chritian books on the market, even theologically correct ones! Sadly, most Christian authors are writing for the converted. It seems that Rick Warren realized that it might be a good idea to write a book which could introduce non-Christians to Christianity in a non-threatening way. In that goal, he has succeeded.
Well .. salvation was not the purpose of the book.
The purpose of the book is simple - believers and non-believers have asked the same question forever - WHAT AM I HERE FOR.
I haven't read the whole book, but I have read excerpts of it. It's mainly for people who are searching to know GOD better. Sometimes, before people can receive GOD as their personal savior, they need to discover who GOD really is; why he made the earth for them; why he loves them; and that he has a plan for their life.
To me .. this was just another attack upon Christianity by the LIBERAL HEATHENS trying to take down something good. After watching all the video of the lady who rescued the Atlanta killer - the non-Christians had to do something.
Why am I not surprised.
Ping.
If the Gospel isn't the Good News of what Christ has done for humanity, what is it?
Chewed gum is right in perspective here. The Gospel is the Good News of what Christ has done to redeem us to His purpose. Redemption without purpose is purposeless.
There is so much bad theology in the Purpose Driven Life I had to stop reading it. It is just awful.
ick.
Sir, I suggest you read that Scripture more carefully.
The fruit of false teachers is FALSE TEACHING.
Warren has some incorrect teaching that the book then brings to the readers.
This is BAD fruit, not good fruit.
If you want a book that is solid theologically and Biblically about the purpose of life, read "Don't Waste Your Life" by John Piper.
His "Purpose Driven Church" dang near
ruined my home church.
PTL that it was recognized in time.
Whose purpose is it? Mine or Christ's? I believe that it was the purpose of the Gospel to save people for eternal life. And that is the purpose for which Christ suffered, died and rose again.
Personally, as I've said, I have some real problems with some of the themes Warren emphasizes; however, they are difficulties not shared by everyone else who reads the book, and they needn't be. If someone is going to benefit from the overall thrust of the book, I'm not going to throw sand in the gears of their spiritual growth because of those issues. So far, I've found nothing in the book that would steer anyone in any direction other than salvation in Christ.
As I said before, to "His purpose".
Chewed gum is right in perspective here. The Gospel is the Good News of what Christ has done to redeem us to His purpose. Redemption without purpose is purposeless.
Point is, many Christians today are down-playing everything outside of soul-winning as unimportant and in doing so, clear themselves of the purpose for their life that God has for them.
I think the interesting question to Rick Warren or any Christian is, if Ashley Smith was not abducted by Brian Nichols, but had a choice, should she have chosen to risk her own safety to try to "reach" or persuad him. Most people would say no. i think God says yes- this is our purpose.
God created us to serve Him. In our love for Him, it is His will that we tell others of His saving grace. If you want to call this purpose, that's fine. Romans 8:28, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."
As will I, and I'm a Wesleyan/Arminian Classical Pentecostal. John MacArthur is top notch IMO.
Good points.
Someday, when all of us God fearing Freepers are gathered at Christ's feet in heaven, He will explain all of scripture. All the "hard" parts will be made clear. I am sure that sometime in that talk, one of us will interrupt and say, "That's not quite right."
Excellent book. Almost didn't read it because it hit me the wrong way at first, but I took my time and grew to appreciate it. I like Purpose Driven Church even more.
Warren might be accused of a type of soft evangelism, but I don't think there's a thing wrong with that. His methodology is to reach out to as many people as he can and try to draw them in. The only crime would be to deny truth appropriately.
Is it a perfectly comprehensive book? No. But it has plenty of good fruit, including the dramatic change in the Atlanta court killer.
Paul
Just wanted to add that I think more harm than good is usually done by the kind of criticism that has been reported here. "The Gospel is about redemption, not life's purpose" is false dichotomy at its very worst. Life's purpose is redemption, and redemption's purpose is that we have "life more abundantly".
Christ told us that there is a place for ignoring the tares, for fear of destroying the wheat as well. Unfortunately the church continues to miss this important lesson. If MacCarther had merely added greater theological depth to the base that Warren had laid, I would applaud his actions. But at least as it's reported here, he went beyond that, into criticism. Biblical scholar, theological wiz, or not, that is very unfortunate. The kingdom of God is about far more than theological exactitude.
Sorry, make that, "The only crime would be to deny truth INappropriately. "
I personally believe that Warren's book has brought many 10's of thousands MORE unbelievers to the
BIBLICAL POINTS OF DECISION, PROGRESS AND LIVED-OUT FAITH
than all of McArthur's sermons and books put together.
Becki
sorry to split hairs, but God did not create us foremost to serve Him. He created us foremost to glorify/love Him. If serving Him were the main reason, He could have made robots. and your Romans quote seemed out of left field to me. with love but this stuff's important.
Paul_B, you have spoken more clearly on this than anyone. Great!
As George H W Bush once said in a debate....that was about as clear as the boston harbor. LOL! Just kidding!
I love MAc Arthur too....I listen to his radio show every night. I'm reading thru the book Truth Matters!
I flipped thru the book at the bookstore once for about 10 minutes once. I had heard about the book and wanted to take a look at it. After reading thru it I could not help but wonder what the big deal was. It didn't strike a that much of an earth shattering book. It has lots of weird bible translations which struck ne as weird.
I geuss after reading Watchman Nee, J I Packer and MacArthur PDL just seemed kind of tame.
I think one initial reason for its success was that he's a southern baptist and southern baptist general love their own. As my sister says, "southern baptist are a breed unto themselves."
#1. Your first sentence answers what we were discussing. Sounds to me like a purpose. #2. God gave man from the beginning the knowledge of good and evil, therefore your robot is a non-issue. #3. My Romans quote was fitting but I guess you don't see "called according to his purpose" meaningful to this discussion. #4. Check out these verses and then tell me we are not called to serve Him: Exodus 7:16 John 12:26 Colossians 3:24 Hebrews 9:14 Even when we are in heaven we will serve him. Check out this verse: Revelations 7:15
To me, the worst aspect of this scenario is McArthur going on a national program through a secular broadcast to denounce the work of another brother. I know that he understands what Paul is saying I Corinthians 6, so I'm pretty disapointed with this course of action.
I almost wrote a blog post dealing with it, but then decided that - hey - I would be doing the same thing.
This was the statement that you were in disagreement with which led to our discussion. I still stand by my support of this statement. However, it does not make me draw a line in the sand for either one of these people. There is a danger though in directing the finger to what man should be doing instead of acknowledging all that God has done for us. From that acknowledgement comes our desire to tell others of the Good News.
Imagine that, they misrepresented someone who really preaches the WHOLE Bible, and made a guy who corrupts the Gospel look good. Imagine that....
"What are Freeper opinions of Rick Warren and his book?"
You'll get the whole gamut here. I personally think it is totally NewAge. It's just Robert Schuller repackaged. Warren even has a "Global Peace Plan" which plays right into the hands of the end time "One World" scenario. It's just unreal. If he is sincerely trusting Jesus, then he is profoundly ignorant of Scripture as well and should NOT be leading any church or even a Bible Study.
Some GREAT pages with links to LOTS of refutation of Warren's 'poison pablum' (as I like to call it).
Biblical critiques
of Rick Warren's (Essentially Robert Schuller's) teachings:
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/downloads.php
especially the articles entitled
"Redefining the Church"
"Church Health Award - From Rick Warren or Jesus Christ?"
"How the Purpose Driven Life Obscures the Gospel"
and "Robert Schuller and the Seeker Sensitive Church"
http://www.moriel.org/discernment.htm#this
scroll down and click on the “church issues” tab – there you will see a list of topics, click “purpose driven.”
http://www.erwm.com/Church%20Growth%20Movement.htm
Many many links there.
http://www.seekersensitive.com/articles.shtml
as well as here.
http://www.myfortress.org/RickWarren.html
has quite a few also. Some may be duplicated between these three lists of course.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/purpose.htm
6 papers on Rick Warren's teachings from Grace Community Church (John MacArthur's church)
http://www.challies.com/archives/000573.php
challies has a lot of stuff on the Rick Warren Phenomenon. Search through his articles for church growth topics and through his book reviews.
here's a good excerpt from Dietrich Bonhoeffer:
“Innumerable times a whole Christian community has broken down because it had sprung from a wish dream. The serious Christian, set down for the first time in a Christian community, is likely to bring with him a very definite idea of what Christian life together should be and to try to realize it. But God's grace speedily shatters such dreams. Just as surely as God desires to lead us to a knowledge of genuine Christian fellowship, so surely must we be overwhelmed by a great disillusionment with others, with Christians in general, and, if we are fortunate, with ourselves.
By sheer grace, God will not permit us to live even for a brief period in a dream world. He does not abandon us to those rapturous experiences and lofty moods that come over us like a dream. God is not a God of the emotions but the God of truth. Only that fellowship which faces such disillusionment, with all its unhappy and ugly aspects, begins to be what it should in God's sight, begins to grasp in faith the promise that is given to it.
The sooner this shock of disillusionment comes to an individual and to a community the better for both. A community which cannot bear and cannot survive such a crisis, which insists upon keeping its illusion when it should be shattered, permanently loses in that moment the promise of Christian community. Sooner or later it will collapse. Every human wish dream that is injected into the Christian community is a hindrance to genuine community and must be banished if genuine community is to survive. He who loves his dream of community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.
God hates visionary dreaming; it makes a dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own law, and judges the brethren and God Himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together. When things do not go his way, he calls the effort a failure. When his ideal picture is destroyed, he sees the community going to smash. So he becomes, first an accuser of his brethren, then an accuser of God, and finally the despairing accuser of himself.
Because God has already laid the only foundation of our fellowship, because God has bound us together in one body with other Christians in Jesus Christ, long before we entered into common life with them, we enter into that common life not as demanders but as thankful recipients. We thank God for what He has done for us. We thank God for giving us brethren who live by His call, by His forgiveness, and His promise. We do not complain of what God does not give us; we rather thank God for what He does give us daily... In the Christian community thankfulness is just what it is anywhere else in the Christian life. Only he who gives thanks for little things receives big things.
We prevent God from giving us the great spiritual gifts He has in store for us, because we do not give thanks for daily gifts. We think we dare not be satisfied with the small measure of spiritual knowledge, experience, and love that has been given to us, and that we must constantly be looking forward eagerly for the highest good. Then we deplore the fact that we lack the deep certainty, the strong faith, and the rich experience that God has given to others, and we consider this lament to be pious. We pray for the big things and forget to give thanks for the ordinary, small (and yet not so small) gifts. How can God entrust great things to one who will not thankfully receive from Him the little things? If we do not give thanks daily for the Christian fellowship in which we have been placed, even where there is no great experience, no discoverable riches, but much weakness, small faith, and difficulty; if on the contrary, we only keep complaining to God that everything is so paltry and petty, so far from what we expected, then we hinder God from letting our fellowship grow according to the measure and riches which are there for us all in Jesus Christ.
-- Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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