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Schiavo Videotape Misleading, Experts Say
Reuters ^ | 3.23.05

Posted on 03/23/2005 2:19:08 PM PST by ambrose

Schiavo Videotape Misleading, Experts Say

Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:06 PM GMT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The videotape that runs endlessly on television stations around the world shows an apparently smiling Terri Schiavo being caressed by her mother's loving hand.

She seems to look deeply, even lovingly, into the off-camera eyes of her mother.

Schiavo's parents and their supporters, including doctors in Congress, have used the tape as evidence the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman is at least occasionally aware of her surroundings and might even be revived from her condition.

They are fighting to get her feeding tube reinserted against the wishes of her husband and legal guardian who says Schiavo would not want to be kept alive in that condition.

But many experts agree the tape is a cruelly misleading trick of biology.

"Pictures do lie," said Dr. Lawrence Schneiderman, a physician and bioethicist at the University of California, San Diego.

"Every time they have done a videotaped neurological examination, the courts have reviewed them and said, 'Yes this woman is unconscious.' Those movements of her eyeballs are reflexive and have nothing to do with recognition."

Studies of people whose cerebral cortices are damaged in the way Schiavo's is show that their eyes will respond to stimuli such as movement or a human face, but there is no way for them to be conscious of what they are seeing.

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, who has been part of the fight to prolong Schiavo's life, said on Wednesday a review of Schiavo's medical records by a neurologist for Florida's Adult Protective Services indicated she may have been misdiagnosed and was more likely in a state of minimal consciousness rather than in a persistent vegetative state.

Such a condition, in which a patient slips in and out of consciousness, was sometimes mistaken for a persistent vegetative state, said Dr. Joseph Fins of New York Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center. But Schiavo was not in that state, Fins said.

"I think now it can be argued that with the advent of minimally conscious state (as a diagnosis), that permanent vegetative state as a diagnosis becomes much more certain," Fins said in a telephone interview.

It is almost certain that when someone suffers brain damage from a lack of oxygen, they are permanently vegetative, Fins said. Schiavo's brain was starved of oxygen after her heart stopped 15 years ago and most doctors who have examined her say there is no chance of recovery.

'UNNERVING PHENOMENON'

Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and bioethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School, said reflexes can fool nonspecialists.

"To the families and loved ones, and to inexperienced health care professionals, PVS (permanent vegetative state) patients often look fairly 'normal,"' Cranford said in a statement.

"Their eyes are open and moving about during the periods of wakefulness that alternate with periods of sleep; there may be spontaneous movements of the arms and legs, and at times these patients appear to smile, grimace, laugh, utter guttural sounds, groan and moan, and manifest other facial expressions and sounds that appear to reflect cognitive functions and emotions, especially in the eyes of the family."

Dr. Timothy Quill of the Center for Palliative Care and Clinical Ethics at the University of Rochester in New York, said reporting about the case had confused people.

"Distortion by interest groups, media hyperbole, and manipulative use of videotape have characterized this case and demonstrate what can happen when a patient becomes more a precedent-setting symbol than a unique human being," Quill wrote in a commentary published on Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine.

"Anybody who been around patients in a persistent vegetative state knows that it is an unnerving phenomenon because they are alternate between sleep and wakefulness but that have no ability to interact," Quill said in a telephone interview.

"It is difficult for families because it is very difficult to discern that."


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: cultureofdeath; expertssay; msp; reuters; schiavo; terri; terrischiavo; terrisfight; terrisfightorg
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1 posted on 03/23/2005 2:19:09 PM PST by ambrose
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To: ambrose

I believe this article as much as I believe Der Sturmer, the official Nazi Party news publication.


2 posted on 03/23/2005 2:21:24 PM PST by tomahawk
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To: ambrose
"Experts Say"

WHICH "experts"? An article that isn't willing to quote real sources is pretty much bunk.

3 posted on 03/23/2005 2:22:32 PM PST by steenkeenbadges
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To: ambrose
Sometimes science cannot discern what love can. I experienced it in the death of my own brother from cancer.

These people would have us ignore what our own eyes tell us, and what the family tells us.

I am glad Bush is taking her into protective custody. There are plenty of other so-called experts who say something different about Terri, including the one the Florida protective services people used from Mayo today.

When there is doubt like this, differing medical opinions, when the family is split like it is...you err on the side of life.

Bush understands this and is acting accordingly.

4 posted on 03/23/2005 2:22:35 PM PST by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
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To: ambrose

Cripes, I'm getting more and more %&#!ing confused with each new article.

It seems like everyone has a different idea of what PVS is and whether Terri Sciavo has it.


5 posted on 03/23/2005 2:22:36 PM PST by MplsSteve
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To: ambrose
"Don't believe your lying eyes. She's a Vegetable. We're Experts."
6 posted on 03/23/2005 2:22:43 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: ambrose
Reuters doing its usual utterly dishonest thing, here disguising liberal death culture spin as news.

My current favorite was the "news" report yesterday that "experts" claim people starving to death experience euphoria.

7 posted on 03/23/2005 2:22:53 PM PST by FormerACLUmember (Honoring Saint Jude's assistance every day.)
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To: ambrose

One of these days I'm going to make a compilation of all the thoroughly ridiculous things that journalists allege "experts agree" on.


8 posted on 03/23/2005 2:22:55 PM PST by thoughtomator (Murder by Judges, 1 - 2 - 3, it's as easy to learn as your ABCBSCNNMSNBCs)
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To: ambrose

I saw a video where someone asked her to open her eyes and she opened them really wide. It wasn't a reflex. So what if her life is similar to that of a baby. That doesn't mean she should die.


9 posted on 03/23/2005 2:23:02 PM PST by 1Peter3v14
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To: ambrose

whatever. she stays alive when fed, and that about settles it.


10 posted on 03/23/2005 2:23:07 PM PST by the invisib1e hand ("remember, from ashes you came, to ashes you will return.")
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To: MplsSteve

Exactly...and in such an environement what should we do? Kill her, or err on the side of life? The answer is obvious.


11 posted on 03/23/2005 2:23:24 PM PST by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
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To: MplsSteve
It seems like everyone has a different idea of what PVS is and whether Terri Sciavo has it.

Gee, that sounds like reasonable doubt to me....

12 posted on 03/23/2005 2:23:38 PM PST by mewzilla (Has CBS retracted the story yet?)
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To: Dr. Frank fan

I won't believe it until I see it.

I don't believe what I see.

I believe what I want to believe.


13 posted on 03/23/2005 2:23:39 PM PST by TheDon (The Democratic Party is the party of TREASON)
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To: ambrose
What does this have to do with state and federal sanction starvation of an innocent woman?

What does it have to do with the courts siding with some appearent prick on hearsay testimony?

Is this article really trying to ellude to killing a person if they are in a PVS no matter what!?

14 posted on 03/23/2005 2:24:31 PM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: ambrose

Does anyone ever stop and ask these "experts" if they are pro-choice?

Because I'd bet most of them are. And therefore, their motives are suspect.


15 posted on 03/23/2005 2:24:36 PM PST by nuffsenuff
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To: ambrose

"It's just gas."


16 posted on 03/23/2005 2:25:19 PM PST by Redcloak (There is no "I" in team. But then again, there is no "us" in it either. There is "meat" however.)
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To: tomahawk

"I believe this article as much as I believe"

I'll add that they can look at you with intense glare as if they know you.

Then they'll give the same recognizing glare out into space.

The one's I've seen have more seeming eye recognition ability than Terri, less vocal sounds.


17 posted on 03/23/2005 2:26:03 PM PST by Shermy
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To: ambrose

I don't know what her real medical condition is, and I accept the possibility the doctors on either side are correct. But the case still troubles me and I wouldn't remove the tube at this point due to all the familiar facts - differences in medical opinions and observations, the husband's estrangement, and teh parents' desire to provide additional care.


18 posted on 03/23/2005 2:26:36 PM PST by Williams
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To: tomahawk
Does Herrn Doctor have an office in the Joseph Goebbels ministry?
19 posted on 03/23/2005 2:26:56 PM PST by demlosers (Soylent Green is made in Florida)
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To: 1Peter3v14

I pointed to a tree, and asked my dog "what's that?" He said "bark!"


20 posted on 03/23/2005 2:27:08 PM PST by ambrose (....)
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To: ambrose

I guess it all depends on which experts you ask.


21 posted on 03/23/2005 2:28:25 PM PST by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Legislatures are so outdated. If you want real political victory, take your issue to court.)
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To: MplsSteve
It seems like everyone has a different idea of what PVS is and whether Terri Sciavo has it.

Someone that has PVS.

22 posted on 03/23/2005 2:28:25 PM PST by isthisnickcool (This space for rent.)
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To: mewzilla
Gee, that sounds like reasonable doubt to me....

But I forgot...She's not a crook, a criminal, a murderous sexual predator...She's not entitled to the same due process...

23 posted on 03/23/2005 2:28:29 PM PST by mewzilla (Has CBS retracted the story yet?)
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To: sirchtruth
The 23rd Psalm --- Translated to Terri's Present Reality !!!

The Lord is Terri's Shepherd --- That's Relationship !!!
She shall not want --- That's Supply !!!
He maketh her to lie down in green pastures --- That's Rest !!!
He leadeth her beside the still waters --- That's Refreshment !!!
He restoreth her soul --- That's Healing !!!
He leadeth her in the paths of righteousness --- That's Guidance !!!
For His name sake --- That's Purpose !!!
Yea, though Terri walks through the valley of the shadow of death --- That's Testing !!!
She will fear no evil --- That's Protection !!!
For Thou art with her --- That's Faithfulness !!!
Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort her --- That's Discipline !!!
Thou preparest a table before Terri in the presence of her enemies--- That's Hope !!!
Thou annointest her head with oil --- That's Consecration !!!
Her cup runneth over --- That's Abundance !!!
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow Terri all the days of her life --- That's Blessing !!!
And she will dwell in the house of the Lord --- That's Security!!!
Forever --- That's Eternity !!!
Congressional Subpoena & President Signs Schiavo Bill --- That's Expectation !!!
Gov. Jeb Bush takes Terri into protective custody --- That's Deliverance !!!
Face it ---- The Lord is crazy about Terri !!!
Otherwise --- Why else would He continuously deliver her from
the evil hands of her attempted murderers ???

24 posted on 03/23/2005 2:29:01 PM PST by GeekDejure ( LOL = Liberals Obey Lucifer !!!)
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To: ambrose
Maybe there IS something to this.

We need more STUDIES!

I think there needs to be more clinical research to determine what is at work here.

I submit Terri Schiavo as an excellent case study. Would you agree she should be taken from the hospice, put back on the tube, given fluids, food and electrolytes, therapy and further therapeutic help, further congnitive analysis, and we can conduct even more and detailed tests? I agree! We could do those tests for the next number of weeks or months, maybe even a few years or more comprehensive tests studying reflexes, will, PVS, etc. Now you do realize that meanwhile that would give others of us chance to get her parents back into true guardianship from her former spouse who is now engaged to be remarried.

Since this is such a controversial issue and the data is incomplete and the jury is out, we should side on the side of care and life, as research continues. Yeah, maybe we SHOULD study these PVS-reflex-willing movement cases more closely!

25 posted on 03/23/2005 2:29:05 PM PST by AmericanInTokyo (Illegal Aliens "Those Wonderful People" in Jail Now Are $1.4 Billion A Year For California Taxpayers)
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To: sirchtruth

"What does this have to do with state and federal sanction starvation of an innocent woman?"

There's good arguments that PVS or not life should not be terminated. But many are relying on the video shots propping up Terri in a chair, etc., for their position that she's not PVS - implicitly if she were the tube could be removed.


26 posted on 03/23/2005 2:29:07 PM PST by Shermy
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To: Jeff Head
Is he?

She must be seriously sick.

Every second counts after this many days.

27 posted on 03/23/2005 2:30:03 PM PST by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: ambrose

Who are you gonna believe, *US* or your *LYING EYES*?


28 posted on 03/23/2005 2:30:03 PM PST by Lazamataz (Cleverly Arranging 1's And 0's Since 11110111011...)
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To: steenkeenbadges

I count four named sources. Did you actually read the story?


29 posted on 03/23/2005 2:30:14 PM PST by Trust but Verify (Pull up a chair and watch history being made.)
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To: ambrose

Experts said that the HMS Titanic could not sink.

Last I checked, she's two miles below the waves.

I do not place much faith in 'experts'. They are wrong more often than not.


30 posted on 03/23/2005 2:30:20 PM PST by ex 98C MI Dude (Our legal system is in a PVS. Time to remove it from the public feeding trough.)
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To: mewzilla

" Studies of people whose cerebral cortices are damaged in the way Schiavo's is show that their eyes will respond to stimuli such as movement or a human face, but there is no way for them to be conscious of what they are seeing. "

What about the video showing her purposefully following the balloon moving from side to side, moving not just her eyes but her whole head?? It seems like a conscious act to me.


31 posted on 03/23/2005 2:30:45 PM PST by floridavoter2
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To: ambrose

At one point "experts" thought the Earth was flat.


32 posted on 03/23/2005 2:31:14 PM PST by dfwgator (It's sad that the news media treats Michael Jackson better than our military.)
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To: Shermy
We're seeing true colors come out in this ordeal. The fact is, those who don't want to be convinced one way or the other will not be.

Even if the article were true (which is doubtful in light of REAL EVIDENCE YOU COULD SEE AND HEAR FOR YOURSELVES IF YOU WANTED) that doesn't justify killing her... unless we've finally devolved to a eugenics society.

Any one of us could be labeled as subhuman using the types of argumentation in this case. I'm just a machine, for example, a bundle of nerves typing this, and because I stubbed my toe this morning and life is tough, I wouldn't want to live this way. Nor are my protests to the contrary to be believed BECAUSE of my subhuman state. The state knows best.

The state is, in fact, shirking its duty according to the 14th Amendment.

33 posted on 03/23/2005 2:31:16 PM PST by Lexinom (You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him.)
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To: ambrose

Experts say "Who are you going to believe, us or your own eyes?".


34 posted on 03/23/2005 2:31:35 PM PST by KC_Conspirator (This space outsourced to India)
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To: tallhappy
At 3PM Eastern he indicated the abuse investigation had developed to the point where they legal could, and would take her into protective custody.

I pray he does so soon, very soon.

35 posted on 03/23/2005 2:31:55 PM PST by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
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To: Williams

That's what I think. There's way too much doubt.

I guess in lieu of not being able to know, we should err on the side of letting her live.


36 posted on 03/23/2005 2:32:03 PM PST by MplsSteve
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To: ambrose
Hm... Reuters.

( Checking credibility-meter.)

Yep.

Still "zero."

Dan
Biblical Christianity BLOG

37 posted on 03/23/2005 2:32:04 PM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: tomahawk
What is your compulsion to believe that the Florida Courts did not weigh all sides to this question? Why the rush to not believe those who have no dog in the fight between Terri's family members? This mindset is making people who are otherwise fairly Conservative, look like a bunch of hysterical "Liberals."

I do not suppose there is any way to persuade you how totally self-defeating this whole emotional tangent over a local case in Florida, is to the cause of restoring Conservative values in America!

38 posted on 03/23/2005 2:32:23 PM PST by Ohioan
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To: ambrose

So if the tape that is out there is "misleading", why is there no other videotape available? As far as that goes, how much of whatever medical records there are on Terri Schiavo, have been made available for perusal by qualified medical personnel who have no stake in the outcome either way?

Inquiring minds want to know.


39 posted on 03/23/2005 2:32:30 PM PST by alloysteel ("Master of the painfully obvious.....")
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To: ambrose

Apparently you've not seen the video I'm referring to. There's a difference between opening your eyes and opening them wide. If you believe your dog said bark, you need help.


40 posted on 03/23/2005 2:32:33 PM PST by 1Peter3v14
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To: ambrose
Does anyone else remember seeing video footage of Michael Schiavo wheeling Terri around in a wheel chair fully made up with hair nicely done and sitting up in the wheel chair with a strap around her keeping her in the chair? It was on Fox News many months ago. I believe it was before the large sum of money awarded Terri. Help! Am I remembering this right? She looked like a handicapped disabled lady. NOT comatose nor brain dead.
41 posted on 03/23/2005 2:32:54 PM PST by Bellflower (A new day is Coming!)
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To: ambrose

42 posted on 03/23/2005 2:33:12 PM PST by Recovering_Democrat (I'm so glad to no longer be associated with the Party of Dependence on Government!)
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To: ambrose

Bioethecists are really scary people. Read what novelist Dean Koontz wrote about these people, back in 2001. It's a stunning passage.

"Great universities like Harvard and Yale, like Princeton, once citadels of knowledge where truth might be pursued, had become well-oiled machines of death, instructing medical students that killing should be viewed as a form of healing, that only selected people who meet a series of criteria have a right to exist, that there is no right or wrong, that death is life We are all Darwinians now, are we not? The strong survive longer, the weak die sooner, and since this is the plan of Nature, shouldn’t we help the old green gal in her work? Accept your expensive diploma, toss your mortarboard in the air to celebrate, and then go kill a weakling for Mother Nature.

Somewhere Hitler smiles. They say that he killed the disabled and the sick (not to mention the Jews) for all the wrong reasons, but if in fact there is no wrong or right, no objective truth, then all that really matters is that he did kill them, which by the standards of contemporary ethics, makes him a visionary."

Dean Koontz, “One Door Away From Heaven” December 2001


43 posted on 03/23/2005 2:33:20 PM PST by EggsAckley
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To: the invisib1e hand
whatever. she stays alive when fed, and that about settles it.

Exactly. I work with patients like her everyday (in a DD hospital that hold about 100 patients like Terri.) Her brain is seriously damaged and she will likely never improve, just like the experts in this article assert. Nevertheless, she should not be killed, but rather treated humanely and sustained.

44 posted on 03/23/2005 2:33:43 PM PST by Rudder
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To: tomahawk

We can always count on Reuters to give a balanced account of every issue. After all, they were so objective in their coverage of the Presidential election. Impossible to detect who they wanted to win.


45 posted on 03/23/2005 2:33:46 PM PST by speedy
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To: ambrose

Who

Who speaks for Terri ?
Michael loves another.
Who cares for Terri ?
They won’t let her mother.
Who’s feeding Terri ?
Greer says, no food at all.
Who will save Terri ?
We watch our nation fall.

CG 3/23/2005


46 posted on 03/23/2005 2:33:46 PM PST by Conspiracy Guy (dot dot dot dash dash dash dot dot dot)
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To: ambrose
Dr. Ronald Cranford

Oh, please...and they expect us to take this seriously?

From Fr. Rob Johansen's National Review piece:

In cases where other doctors don't see it, Dr. Cranford seems to have a knack for finding PVS. Cranford also diagnosed Robert Wendland as PVS. He did so in spite of the fact that Wendland could pick up specifically colored pegs or blocks and hand them to a therapy assistant on request. He did so in spite of the fact that Wendland could operate and maneuver an ordinary wheelchair with his left hand and foot, and an electric wheelchair with a joystick, of the kind that many disabled persons (most famously Dr. Stephen Hawking) use. Dr. Cranford dismissed these abilities as meaningless. Fortunately for Wendland, the California supreme court was not persuaded by Cranford's assessment.

47 posted on 03/23/2005 2:34:55 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: All
LITTLE KNOWN FACT....
Most or ALL of that video was played to GREER with the AUDIO TURNED OFF!!!

Terri can be made to look spaced out, without her glasses, and without AUDIO of the DOCTOR exclaiming GOOD JOB! GOOD JOB YOUNG LADY!!!!

48 posted on 03/23/2005 2:35:16 PM PST by Future Useless Eater (FreedomLoving_Engineer)
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To: alloysteel
What does it matter? Anyone who says she has no chance of recovery will be called a 'Death Cultist' or worse. I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole if I were an expert in neurological function.

Our 'experts' right here on FR have spoken. Their truth is the only possible truth.

49 posted on 03/23/2005 2:35:30 PM PST by Trust but Verify (Pull up a chair and watch history being made.)
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To: 1Peter3v14

"I saw a video where someone asked her to open her eyes and she opened them really wide. It wasn't a reflex."

I have heard that that 4 minute video was edited down from about 40 hours filming, all apparent 'reactions' just coincidental. Anyone eles hear anything about this?


50 posted on 03/23/2005 2:35:53 PM PST by Ignatius J Reilly
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