You mean like this "gift" from Uncle Joe?
Posted on 03/30/2005 11:37:59 AM PST by Grzegorz 246
The Jewish property left in Poland on the eve of World War II is today worth more than $30 billion, according to a comprehensive report drawn up at the request of the Israeli government.
The estimate does not include communal buildings and facilities held by the various Jewish communities in different parts of Poland. The report was drawn up by experts from the government, the business sector and non-profit and non-governmental organizations.
Some 10 percent of Poland's population was Jewish before the Holocaust.
The report relates not only to the value of the property but also to its legal status, and proposes to the government how to proceed. It will be discussed at the upcoming meeting of the ministerial committee on returning Jewish property.
The Foreign Ministry is opposed to explicit government intervention in returning Jewish property in eastern Europe, saying it could affect ties with these countries, particularly with Poland.
The government approved a proposal by Diaspora Affairs Minister Natan Sharansky at the end of 2003 to set up under his leadership a ministerial committee on the subject. A steering committee, headed by Sharansky's adviser on Jewish property affairs, subsequently heard historians, legal experts and representatives of Jewish organizations, and examined archival material in various places including Yad Vashem and in Poland.
Sharansky's spokesperson, Rivka Kanarik said predawn Tuesday that the experts were not finished working on the report. As a result, Kanarik said, the steering committee has yet to formulate a policy regarding how to dispense the property in question.
According to a source close to the committee, many of the Polish Jews were very wealthy.
"They controlled the oil and textile industries, and held expensive properties, many of which are now in the downtown areas of the cities," the source said.
The Hebrew daily Ma'ariv reported Monday that the Polish government had proposed a new draft law permitting heirs to receive 15 percent of the worth of their property. Sources said it was unlikely that the law would be approved, and that the sum was insufficient, but expressed satisfaction that such a precedent had been set.
Since 90 percent of Polish Jewry perished in the Holocaust, it was unlikely that there would be many heirs, they said, and therefore a joint Jewish body should be set up and recognized as representing the Jewish people, as had been done in Germany.
Foreign Ministry sources say that the issue of returning property is a very sensitive one in Polish society today, and should be handled by Jewish organizations rather than the Israeli government.
There is a great deal of tension over German demands for possible restitution for German citizens who were forced to leave Poland, they say. However, the former Israeli ambassador to Poland, Shevah Weiss, said Monday that there was a strong moral responsibility to return the property to the Jews of Poland.
"I don't believe the Poles will break off diplomatic relations over this moral issue," he said, "particularly in light of the fact that the elite in Poland certainly has an awareness of the issue and the readiness to make amends."
Well, haven't the Germans paid reparations for this? I can't see how the current Polish government should have to pay.
How not to win friends and influence people chapter 2.
Germany has nothing to do with what the Polish government stole from the Jews, and yes, they should have to pay it ALL back to the Jews!
Any direct heirs to property should be considered for some sort of compensation for their specific real estate, the rest should be left alone.
IMHO.
This is disgusting. Vile, disgusting, unhinged greed.
It was the German State which stole from the Jews in Germany and in Poland. Poland did not profit from the Holocaust; it shared in it. Poland endured horrific suffering at the hands of the Nazis, then the Soviets, and made into a destitute, ravished, barren landscape.
Why sue Poland? In a credit to her people, she has spring alive again, and has more cash than her oppressor, the New Soviet Empire. So the snivelling sycophants of Pluto dash to her like ticks. Not to relieve the suffering of the heirs of the Holocaust; the world must mourn that they do not exist. Rather, to fatten the lawyers: "[I]t was unlikely that there would be many heirs, they said, and therefore a joint Jewish body should be set up and recognized as representing the Jewish people, as had been done in Germany."
So just as Poland staggers to her feet, the vipers return to drain her life.
Sickening, just sickening.
"Foreign Ministry sources say that the issue of returning property is a very sensitive one in Polish society today, and should be handled by Jewish organizations rather than the Israeli government."
Please note: This is the give-away. This is not the Jewish people. This is the "Non-Government Organization" crowd!
>> Germany has nothing to do with what the Polish government stole from the Jews, and yes, they should have to pay it ALL back to the Jews! <<
Which Polish government stole it from the Jews? The Nazis or the Stalinists?
If the original owners want it back, then the governments of Germany and Russia should buy it back for them at market prices.
Otherwise it's an injustice, especially to the millions of Poles living in Poland who have never had their property returned to them.
will get back to this
I believe the initial post-war coalition government, though compensation covers property confiscated between 1945 and 1962.
Otherwise it's an injustice, especially to the millions of Poles living in Poland who have never had their property returned to them.
They were compensated, unless they didn't file claims. Unfortunately the initial legislation required that claimants be Polish citizens, effectively elimating most Jews and their heirs.
Sounds like a good precedent to me. There are millions, maybe billions in dollars worth of property in Missouri and Illinois stolen by anti-mormon bigots from my mormon ancestors prior to the civil war.
The anti-mormon mobocracy, officially sponsored and supported by the state and federal governments at the time, came much closer to proportionately wiping out the mormons than the nazis did to wiping out the jews. Where's this group's outrage over that?
I want my share of the reparations--at today's fair market value of course.
Are the israelis going to give back the money to the pallies for their buildings that were conquered during the wars in 1948, 67', 73', 82'?
Ancestors of mine on my father's side lost a whole lot of nice property in Ireland after Cromwell's campaign. Maybe I should be compensated. O but then again, Im a UK citizen so should I pay myself?
Those who filed claims by 1954 were compensated. Very few did, since accepting compensation was (and is) punishable by death by their Arab brethren. Israel has and is still willing to negotiate financial compensation for refugees, but only in a comprehensive regional fashion, which is a non starter for obvious reasons.
They were not compensated with land or with the market price of land. They were given a scheduled compensation below true market value.
Unfortunately the initial legislation required that claimants be Polish citizens, effectively elimating most Jews and their heirs.
The intent of that legislation was to exclude German claimants to Pomerania.
I'm not saying that the heirs of Holocaust victims are not entitled to compensation - they certainly are.
But it's not fair to Poles to say that they get a token amount of comp for their lost property but the descendants of other Poles should get actual restitution of the property.
That's extremely inequitable.
It should be equal for all, or if land is to be restored it should not be confiscated from Poles but purchased from them at market by the successor governments of the real culprits.
Thanks for clearing that up, I was just curious if they were compensated.
I beg to differ
Sheesh, half of my father's Catholic family was wiped out in the war. My grandfather was shot for refusing to help rebuild a bridge that was blown up by the resistance. My grandmother was sent to work in Germany and disappeared.
I agree, but I see noting to indicate anyone is asking for inequitable restitution. The article, and as you're clearly aware this issue is several years old, doesn't indicate anyone is asking for anything, other than mentioning the 15% proposal, less than a third of the 50% of value given to Polish citizens. Interestingly a few years ago I believe the Polish Government estimated the value of Jewish property as considerably more than $30 billion.
"They were compensated."
They weren't compensated.
I saw quite a few pre-war buildings in Warsaw and Krakow
Funny... Germany invaded Poland in 1939. What you described happened in 1941. Yes, Poles committed the atrocity. But at the same time, the behavior of Poles in a Nazi-dominated society would be very different than Poles in a free society:
* Hateful idiots exist in every society. In a free society, others would probably have held them in check. In Nazi-dominated Poland, the evildoers confidently knew that if anyone opposed them, it would be the peaceful people who would be killed.
* The Germans were destroying Polish society, creating a new one, and making very plain that they supported the extermination of the Jews. Millions of non-Jewish Poles were being slaughtered. Enthusiastically embracing the desires of their overlords would be a good way for unprincipled Poles to secure their own safety. As such, these Poles must be understood as traitors to their own people.
Your quite right about Krakow, former capital of the German's General-Government. The "old" buildings you saw in Warsaw were lovingly recreated in the 50's and 60's.
I lost an entire branch of my family tree in Poland during WWII.
In Warsaw you saw " lots " of prewar buildings.....? Warsaw Poland?
If that 15% is 15% of current market value, it's probably substantially more than the rate at which in-country Poles were compensated.
Quite frankly, the article doesn't give enough detail.
Interestingly a few years ago I believe the Polish Government estimated the value of Jewish property as considerably more than $30 billion.
I would expect it to be far more. After all, something like one of every eight or nine Poles was Jewish in 1939.
I thought Poland passed a compensation bill a few years ago. If I'm wrong, then everyone's in the same boat.
Krakow, yes.
My understanding is that the Praga district of Warsaw pretty much was left intact during the war, but the side of Warsaw on the other side of the Wisla was pretty much destroyed.
My guess there's nothing to give any detail about. If Grzegorz is right, and he should know, maybe the law I'm thinking of was never implemented. In any event, imo if compensation should be reasonably equitable irrespective of the religion of the original owners.
Lots of good farmland in County Cork, probably worth a nice sum today. I can imagine that what the Germans didnt destroy the communists did (and replaced with lovely soviet-style concrete abominations).
Since the Communists nationalized everything, what makes you think that anyone got "fair market value"? And how to determine such value in a Stalinist state?
Where and when has Polish government stole anything from Jews?
I specifically stated that no one got fair market value.
However, at this moment it would be quite easy to establish the current market value of much of these assets.
True enough. To be honest, some of the Soviet era "Stalin Gothic" buildings grow on you.
You mean like this "gift" from Uncle Joe?
How would it be easy to establish the value of a claim from a 1939 owner, which went through extensive damage, who paid zero to rebuild the damage, which was nationalized by the Communists? What is the fair market value of a building or factory that hasn't existed for 60 years and was destroyed by third and fourth parties?
This is BS. Some Jewish families sent away their children on the eve of the invasion. I'm living proof of that.
When I was in Moscow I saw lots and I admit I quite liked them - a bit like a Batman style building. The later stuff from the '60s and '70s is awful though.
I quite like that one!
Why, the amount of money that people are willing to pay for the land that it stood on, of course.
Stories like this make me wonder how much longer we're still going to be fighting World War II.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.