Black holes 'do not exist'

Nature ^ | 03/31/05 | Philip Ball

[Michael_Michaelangelo]

Black holes are staples of science fiction and many think astronomers have observed them indirectly. But according to a physicist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, these awesome breaches in space-time do not and indeed cannot exist.

Over the past few years, observations of the motions of galaxies have shown that some 70% the Universe seems to be composed of a strange 'dark energy' that is driving the Universe's accelerating expansion.

George Chapline thinks that the collapse of the massive stars, which was long believed to generate black holes, actually leads to the formation of stars that contain dark energy. "It's a near certainty that black holes don't exist," he claims.

Black holes are one of the most celebrated predictions of Einstein's general theory of relativity, which explains gravity as the warping of space-time caused by massive objects. The theory suggests that a sufficiently massive star, when it dies, will collapse under its own gravity to a single point.

But Einstein didn't believe in black holes, Chapline argues. "Unfortunately", he adds, "he couldn't articulate why." At the root of the problem is the other revolutionary theory of twentieth-century physics, which Einstein also helped to formulate: quantum mechanics.

[silverleaf]

cosmos ping

[Fiat volvntas tva]

Black holes do not exists?

Obviously, someone hasn't looked inside Barney Frank's head.

[PeterFinn]

Well, they do exist because we can observe their effects. But can they "exist" the way we understand existence?

Probably not.

And isn't it nice to know that scientists are willing to admit that they don't know it all?

[Michael_Michaelangelo]

Times are changin'. :)

[Dr. Frank fan]

Science just keeps screwing up the best science fiction. First they told me that laser-guns and explosions in space wouldn't make any noise. And that faster-than-light travel wasn't possible, and even near-light travel would screw up peoples' ages relative to each other. That you couldn't have gravity on a ship to let you walk around, etc. Now this?

What's next? No Klingons?

[Kimba]

Obviously, someone hasn't looked inside Barney Frank's head.

Barney's head is very selective about what it "sucks in"!

[ElkGroveDan]

Oh yeah? Well then where do our tax dollars go?

[facedown]

But Einstein didn't believe in black holes, Chapline argues.

Einstein also believed that "God doesn't play dice" when in fact The Old Guy is an inveterate gambler.

[punster]

Black Holes suck!

[edeal]

If you ever had a long haired dog, you would be well aware that Klingon will always exist.

[Straight Vermonter]

Another recent theory is that black holes are essential to galaxy formation. So who is correct?

[ApplegateRanch]

So black holes don't exist, we're just seeing something that looks and acts like a black hole would, except for utilizing a different mechanism?

No matter what, it still sucks.

[G32]

Well this would just throw out about 60 years of cosmology.. Jeez.

[Publius6961]

Sorry guys, but you'll have to resolve this one without me.

Every time I try to grasp quantum physics, event horizons, black holes and super-dense dark matter, my head starts to explode and I have to go find something I can deal with like digging a posthole or sorting my socks.

[martin_fierro]

70% the Universe seems to be composed of a strange 'dark energy' that is driving the Universe's accelerating expansion.

I AM THE FATHER OF 70% OF YOU.

[the right side jedi]

yeah im not buying this. I need to see some equations and evidence before I believe any of this. I have a background in physics and I get the impression that he doesnt understand some aspects about general relativity. The problem with quantum mechanics at the boundary comes most likely from the fact that we have no theory of gravitational quantum mechanics. I've noticed that some physicists when they cant explain something like to say its because of dark matter/energy

[SalukiLawyer]

And isn't it nice to know that scientists are willing to admit that they don't know it all?

Yes it is, and you often see it with astronomers, who also have a little-kid-excited attitude lots of times. The anti-ID folks in the life sciences just don't seem to have the same curiosity and humility, but I guess being grim defenders of Western Civilization against the Creationist Theocrats doesn't leave much room for fun.

[Starve The Beast]

I'm shattered. I mean, when you can't put your faith in an object of zero dimension, infinite surface gravity and incalculable spin connected by an instantaneous link to another point in the universe, what CAN you put your faith in?

[DakotaGator]

Of course black holes exist. That's where all of my money goes. Wait. That's taxes!

[neutrality]

Your link doesn't appear to be working

[neutrality]

Actually it seems I just can't access nature.com for some reason

[Phsstpok]

Science just keeps screwing up the best science fiction. First they told me that laser-guns and explosions in space wouldn't make any noise.

Niven's Law number 2:

Never fire a laser at a mirror.

And if you thought that laser-guns and explosions in space would make a noise then you haven't been paying attention to science fiction for about 30 years.

Remember the tag line to the first Alien movie (1979)?

[satan]

Just another contractor from Lawrence Livermore posing as a National Laboratory and looking for more contract money.

A Nuclear Weapons Lab without any mission.

[Hot Tabasco]

"It's a near certainty that black holes don't exist,"

Obviously the writer has never spent a spring here in Michigan and blown a tire and ruined his suspension hitting one of those non-existant black holes.........

[Dr. Frank fan]

And if you thought that laser-guns and explosions in space would make a noise

You know - when I was, like, 5 years old :)

Remember the tag line to the first Alien movie (1979)?

Of course. That's what burst the bubble for me. "They CAN'T?" ;-)

[mhx]

sorting my socks.

And where do you think all the missing socks go to? It's caused by dark energy, I'm telling you.

[fieldmarshaldj]

Oprah ?

[Publius6961]

And where do you think all the missing socks go to?

Nice catch.
I was totally oblivious as to why a thread about black holes would make me think about socks...

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

Barney's head is very selective about what it "sucks in"!

Putz comes to mind.

[Bars4Bill]

George Chapline never met Hillary Clinton.

[JohnnyZ]

Obviously, someone hasn't looked inside Barney Frank's head.

Not to mention his ___

[Nick Danger]

I don't know from this stuff, but when I look up at night, what I see are white holes. Whatever is out there is black, and there's a whole bunch of it. Except there are these little white holes in it in the shapes of bears and crabs and stuff. I think these might be primitive sky drawings done by asteroid men whose only tool was the "pin."

[MaxMax]

Free space trips tomorrow. Eat at Cosmos.

[Personal Responsibility]

The real question is:

Has he made this announcement on Art Bell or George Norry's show?

He is not an *official* wack job until then.

[Nick Danger]

where do you think all the missing socks go to?

Socks are the larval form of wire coathangers. Every time a sock disappears from your washing machine, a wire coathanger appears in your closet. This is why, every six months or so, you have to grab a big handful of them and throw them out, lest they take over your closet.

The sock manufacturers do not want you to know this.

[traviskicks]

And isn't it nice to know that scientists are willing to admit that they don't know it all?
---

Learn to say "I don't know." If used when appropriate, it will be often. - Donald Rumsfeld

[grey_whiskers]

Every time I try to grasp quantum physics, event horizons, black holes and super-dense dark matter, my head starts to explode and I have to go find something I can deal with like digging a posthole>/b> or sorting my socks.

Post-Hole Digger = "PhD".

So what don't you understand? :-)

Cheers!

[Dick Vomer]

yeah im not buying this. I need to see some equations and evidence before I believe any of this. I have a background in physics and I get the impression that he doesnt understand some aspects........noticed that some physicists when they cant explain something like to say its because of dark matter/energy

Damn it... your forcing me to do this but...... ok

[Dick Vomer]

OK... had enough???

[TailspinJim]

I'm halfway through "Parallel Worlds" by Michio Kaku, published in January 2005, and he writes of black holes in great detail. (wormholes and strings, too).

[Dick Vomer]

[Dick Vomer]

and just in case you want to see the rough draft of the black hole "not there" theory...

/sarcasm off roflmao

[RightWhale]

Use the duct tape if the head seems likely to explode. But wait! There was an explosion at a duct tape factory today. Don't know if they were product testing.

[getsoutalive]

Check your calendars.

[Right Wing Assault]

Oh, Yeah? Well, take this!
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html