Skip to comments.Sundaland (GGG)
Posted on 03/31/2005 8:48:54 PM PST by blam
click here to read article
Professor Stephen Oppenheimer, makes the same case in his excellent book, Eden In The East.
Dr Robert Schoch does essentially the same in his book, Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders
We are about to see the greatest era of archeology unfold.
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Did anyone check Sandy Berger?
Somewhere I've got an old bottle with some Naacal tablets. They're obviously a little past their expiration date...
Kind of like Helen Thomas! Come to think of it, it was probably originally her bottle. . .They didn't find a mummified journalist at the site with the Naacal tablets, did they?
I won't believe any of this untill we find a Case Backhoe or a Manitowoc 2100 rusting in the bay of Campeche!
The land area that went underwater is twice the land area of present day India. A lot of people had to move.
Oppenheimer said that the Ice Age had three major melt surges, the last one 7-8,000 years ago. I expect there would have been a lot of earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanos due to weight redistribution. I guessing that most could have walked/sailed away from the rising melt water.
Excellent article, thanks for posting.
Boy, is this ever interesting. Yeah, thanks for putting it up.
Mu and Atlantis both suffered from melting glaciers. Funny, lot of people seem to think that is only happening now.
Bump for later
I agree. The flooding occurred in three major events. The last one was in the 7-8,000 year time frame. Remember that the Black Sea flood is dated at 5,600BC. I think it took that long for the Mediterranean to refill through the opening at Gilbralter and then cascaded into the Black Sea. I suspect the Gulf Of Mexico went through something similar. I have some wood from a forest thats on the bottom of Santa Rosa Sound (Florida) that dates to about 7,000BC.
BTW, the Gulf Of Mexico scenario is pure speculation (I know of no evidence), I came up with that thought as about the only way to explain the underwater structures (if they turn out to be structures) off the coast of Cuba. They were built on the shore of a dessicated Gulf Of Mexico in pre-history. They are one-half mile underwater and that seems like too much for subsidence.
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I cannot (for the life of me) understand Why this thread got only 21 replies.
Thanks for posting.. very interesting read.
BLAM IM SHOCKED
You believe this crap?
I'm leaning very heavily in that direction, lots of supporting evidence.
Im sure the're where many lands where people lived that submerged, but... you guys don't seriously believe everything this article claims right?
1) All details of this supposed "mu" came from some "ancient tablets" that conveniently disappeared and nobody even saw or translated except for one man. That ranks high on my bullshitradar.
2) Majority of evidence is basically nothing more then vague references in other writings and cultures of 'a land' or 'a land to the east' and 'a civilisation that was destroyed' etc.
Considering how many lands and cultures and civilisations there where, is it really smart to just presume that all references to cultures and lands all refered to the same one?
3) The article claims that the description of Atlantis matches Mu-land perfectly. Well i guess there are SOO many descriptions of Atlantis that are ever so different that maybe one actually does. But he refers to Plato and Plato's description really does mention Atlantis past the Pillars of Hercule. So, not really a perfect match. Also, was there pure copper ore (orichalchum) in that land? Was there immense quantities of gold? How can the guy know, if the area is submerged? How can he possibly claim it is a perfect match?
Most of Plato's descriptions was about the structuring of the society, the marvelous buildings etc.
In place of that Sundaland there are a few "statues and blocks". How does this proof a perfect match? Are the blocks layed out in concentric circles? Is there a huge canal?
Still claiming that the description fits seems like hammering the evidence to fit the theory to me.
4) The whole concept of one sole culture sending emissaries to every corner of the world to teach the poor smucks how to peel a banana and lay one piece of stone on another also scores high on my bullshit radar.
But I could be convinced if there was some evidence. Like, hundreds of identical ship drawings all over the world with "Mu" written underneath. Or, African -type skeletons buried all over the world, preferrably with the same artefacts in their graves.
Do you guys realize the scale of such an enterprise?
And no evidence but a few references to unnamed cultures and lands in writings, who could be refering to about every culture and land, and the supposed translations of old tablets of which nobody ever heard of till some guy wrote a book claiming he discovered them, and nobody ever heard again from.
This is NOT science.
"Further examination suggested the ruins were made between seven and ten thousand years ago as well, although Japanese researchers put the walls construction at between 10,000 and 80,000 years ago."
I have an open mind. I'll even list to your ideas about Atlantis.
What are they?
Ideas? sure. Aslong as I dont have to make up evidence to be interesting enough to get people to read it. That is the current way to go right?
I think the story of Atlantis told by Plato is as interesting as any story told by one ancient guy. And there are a lot. However, since Aztecs mention that there used to be this great empire called Atlan, and since
Atlan and Tis are Aztec and Inca words meaning City and Water, and Plato talks about how Atlantis was so tied to the sea, im willing to believe that Atlantis may have been located on or next to south america.
South america itself is after all past the pillars of Hercule, and it contains plenty of gold and copper.
Not to mention piramids, which everyone associates with Atlantis anyway.
Just because Plato said that Atlantis went down in the sea, doesnt necessarily mean that it is completely at the bottom of the sea. Perhaps only some of the islands, perhaps part of the coast, perhaps only the capital city. Perhaps not at all and the culture was only destroyed by a flood.
When half of Washington would burn to the ground, wouldn't newspapers claim that "Washington burns"?
Wouldn't that day be remembered as the day that Washington "went down in flames"?
Even though only half the city burned!People like dramatizing.
Besides, looking at the devastation of one tsunami,
i can imagine what it might do to a culture, who's majopr cities would have been localised at the coast, without foreign aid, canned food or emergency workers. Ir would end it.
This is only an idea, and i don't postulate that there is "in fact more evidence is cited here than for most other currently accepted theories for other civilizations" as that moron claims who postulated his idea.
One last post. This is from Plato's dialogues:
Plato's accounts of Atlantis are in his works Timaeus and Critias. These philosophical dialogues, usually dated to the 360s BC, are the earliest known references to Atlantis. The Timaeus begins with an introduction, followed by an ccount of the creations and structure of the universe and ancient civilizations. In the introductory portion, Socrates muses on the perfect society (as described in Plato's Republic) and wonders if he and his guests could come up with a story which puts this society into action. Critias mentions an allegedly historical tale that he would make the perfect example, and follows up by describing Atlantis in the Critias dialogue, mainly its origins and form. (Ancient Athens represented the "perfect society," and Atlantis the opponent, representing the opposite of the "perfect" traits described in the Republic.) Critias' account is purported to have originated from a visit to Egypt by the Athenian lawgiver Solon, where Sonchis, priest of Thebes, translated it into Greek for him.
According to Critias, the Hellenic gods of old divided the land so that each god might own a lot; Poseidon was appropriately, and to his liking, bequeathed the island of Atlantis. The island was larger than Libya and Asia Minor combined, but has since been sunk by an earthquake and became an impassable mud shoal, inhibiting travel between the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea. The Egyptians described Atlantis as an island approximately 700 km across, comprising mostly mountains in the northern portions and along the shore, and encompassing a great plain of an oblong shape in the south "extending in one direction three thousand stadia [about 600 km], but across the centre inland it was two thousand stadia [about 400 km]."
Fifty stadia inland from the middle of the southern coast was a "mountain not very high on any side." Here lived a native woman with whom Poseidon fell in love and who bore him five pairs of male twins. The eldest of these, Atlas, was made rightful king of the entire island and the ocean (now the Atlantic Ocean), and was given the mountain of his birth and the surrounding area as his fiefdom. Atlas's twin Gadeirus or Eumelus in Greek, was given the easternmost portion of the island which also lay at its northern extreme facing Gades, a town in southern Spain. The other four pairs of twins Ampheres and Evaemon, Mneseus and Autochthon, Elasippus and Mestor, and Azaes (the Azores?) and Diaprepes "were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea."
Poseidon carved the inland mountain where his love dwelt into a palace and enclosed it with three circular moats of increasing width, varying from one to three stadia and separated by rings of land proportional in size. The Atlanteans then built bridges northward from the mountain, making a route to the rest of the island. They dug a great canal to the sea, and alongside the bridges carved tunnels into the rings of rock so that ships could pass into the city around the mountain; they carved docks from the rock walls of the moats. Every passage to the city was guarded by gates and towers, and a wall surrounded each of the city's rings. The walls were constructed of red, white and black rock quarried from the moats, and were covered with brass, tin and orichalcum, respectively.
According to Critias, 9,000 years before his lifetime, a war took place between those outside the Pillars of Heracles and those who dwelt within them. The Atlanteans had conquered the Mediterranean as far east as Egypt and the continent into Tyrrhenia, and subjected its people to slavery. The Athenians led an alliance of resistors against the Atlantean empire and as the alliance disintegrated, prevailed alone against the empire, liberating the occupied lands. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea."
"South america itself is after all past the pillars of Hercule, and it contains plenty of gold and copper. Not to mention piramids, which everyone associates with Atlantis anyway."
Thanks. I have considered this area too as have many others, Jim Allen's Historic Atlantis In Bolivia. Dr Robert Schoch believes these people were refugees from Sundaland when it went underwater at the end of the Ice Age. This can be found in his book, Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders
LOL, I had some PhD's do a study that showed how the Gulf Of Mexico could have been blocked off and isolated from the world's oceans during the Ice Age and when the waters rose and the dam broke, Atlantis was flooded. I thought of that idea while trying to explain how man-made (?)(the jury is still out) structures came to be lying under 2,500 feet of water off the western edge of Cuba.
Were the Chapoapoyas (of South America) exiled workers from the gold mines (ophir) of King Solomon?
I think there are a lot of big suprises for us in South America, yet.
Im sure the're where many lands where people lived that submerged, but... you guys don't seriously believe everything this article claims right?Blam likes the ideas in Oppenheimer's book, me, not so much. But regarding belief, I post a lot of topics that I don't necessarily agree with, just because they are food for thought. There are FReepers who don't like this or that, and I'm one of them :') but I don't get all that hot and bothered any longer, other than last week...
I cannot (for the life of me) understand Why this thread got only 21 replies.Wow. Post something like that in my Illinois Bison DNA topic, willya? ;')
It's all theory, everyone know that. Geez, don't get so bent out of shape over a theory. If it was conclusive, it would be headlines all over the world.
Everyone is looking for proof/evidence for their theories. That's all.
Oops, what did I miss last week?
From the Author
'Eden in the East'overturns conventional ideas of the origins of western civilization in Mesopotamia. In this book I place Southeast Asia for the first time as the key to the first roots of civilisation.
At the same time I provide scientific explanations for numerous, and previously unexplained, cultural links between early Eastern and Western cultures. Notable among these links are the hundreds of myths of a great flood which forced people into boats and left only a few survivors.
I can now identify this flood as the dramatic rise in sea level at the end of the ice age that suddenly inundated vast areas of Eurasia. In other words the Biblical Flood really did occur. It had its most disastrous effects, however, in the continent of Southeast Asia - now a lost and half-sunken Eden.
As the Ice Age ended, there were three catastrophic and rapid rises in sea level. The last of these, which finished shortly before the start of civilization in Mesopotamia, may have been the one that was remembered.
These three floods drowned the coastal cultures and all the flat continental shelves of Southeast Asia. As the sea rolled in, there was a mass emigration from the sinking continent. These flood-driven refugees, carried their domestic animals with them in large ocean-going canoes in all directions.
The networks of sea trade, created by their settlements around the Indian Ocean, fertilized the Neolithic cultures of China, India, Mesopotamia and Egypt.
The Southeast Asian contributions to the building of the first cities in Mesopotamia may not have been solely technological. While they may have brought the new ideas and skills of megalithic construction cereal domestication, sea-faring, astronomy, navigation, trade and commerce, they may also have introduced the tools to harness and control the labour of the farmers and artisans. These included magic, religion, and concepts of state, kingship and social hierarchy.
While most alternative prehistories are based more on speculation than fact, I have found some very solid evidence; and have built on the work of specialists in many fields in addition to my own research, to support a comprehensive new picture.
The most solid facts come from oceanographic research of the last decade. It now appears that the great rise in sea level after the last ice age, known about for many years, was not gradual; three sudden ice-melts, the last of which was only 8000 years ago, had catastrophic effects on tropical coasts with flat continental shelves.
Rapid land loss was compounded by superwaves, set off by cracks in the earth's crust as the weight of ice shifted to the seas.
Archaeology holds the most accurately dated clues to the past. I have devoted two chapters to archaeological evidence found on coasts and in caves throughout the Indo-Pacific region. All of the technological 'firsts' which signalled man's emergence from the long Palaeolithic era towards the end of the Ice Age come from the Pacific Rim islands.
These include evidence of deliberate long-distance sailing and grinding of cereal flour in the Solomon islands from 30,000 years ago. The world's first pots, 12,500 years old, come from Japan. The first evidence that swamps were drained for agriculture comes from the New Guinea Highlands 9,000 years ago.
These snapshots hint at a much older history to the discovery of Neolithic skills in the East. The better archaeological preservation of the later stages of human development in Mesopotamia and Egypt, however, has given rise to the view that civilization started in the West.
I review the evidence of the spoken word in the two linguistic chapters. Experts in the history of language now recognise that Southeast Asia not Europe or West Asia was the centre of language dispersal at the end of the Ice Age.
The ancestral language of the Micronesians and Polynesians did not come out of China, as has been recently assumed, but further south over 8000 years ago out of the drowning islands of Indonesia.
As the Flood engulfed Indo- China and separated Sumatra from Malaysia the ancestral languages of the Khmers, whose descendants built Angkor Wat, moved west into India.
The most dramatic new findings in this book come out of my own research field. I have published more than 25 scientific papers on the genetic prehistory of the Indo-Pacific region over the past 15 years. Building on my initial work, in Eden in the East I have shown that genetic disorders can be used as people-markers revealing a new view of prehistoric migrations in the Indo-Pacific region.
My latest finding, made in collaboration with the Oxford Institute of Molecular Medicine, was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics in October 1998. This paper arose directly out of my research for Eden in the East. It provides compelling evidence that Polynesians and other argonauts of the Indian and Pacific Oceans originated in eastern Indonesia back in the Ice Age rather than in China, as previously thought.
This finding alone forces the realisation that the Polynesians' skills of sailing, navigation, astronomy and agriculture had their origins, back in Indonesia, during the Ice Age.
Another objective tool that I use to explore ancient East-West cultural influence in the last part of the book is comparative mythology. Uniquely shared folklore shows that counterparts and originals for nearly every Middle Eastern and European mythological archetype, including the Flood, can be found in the islands of eastern Indonesia and the southwest Pacific.
Southeast Asia is revealed as the original Garden of Eden and the Flood as the force which drove people from Paradise.
My multidisciplinary approach to prehistoric enquiry has been recognised in the academic fields of linguistics and comparative folklore.
I have been invited to present papers on my work on prehistory at international linguistic meetings. This year I contributed a chapter to a book on Flood myths in the Moluccas published by the Department of Languages and Cultures of Southeast Asia and Oceania, Leiden University (Netherlands). --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
I don't recall that Oppenheimer mentions Atlantis at all in his books. It was Dr Robert Schoch, citing Oppenheimer's work, who does in his book, Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders.
I think there is some truth to all ancient myths. I think there must have been an Atlantis. My ideas of it's possible location have changed numerous times. Sundaland is presently my preferred location.
Great article,thanx.I won't comment on the veracity of the theory,but i've held the opinion for years that civilization is considerably older than estimates would indicate.The fact all civilizations mention an "ancient" society that was lost to flooding and/or seizmic activity is compelling.
All very interesting links.. ty for posting!