Skip to comments.Seoul downgrading U.S. alliance in favor of closer military ties with China, Russia
Posted on 04/14/2005 8:08:17 AM PDT by Dr. Marten
Time to take the US military from there. They were there as a trip wire, ready to sacrifice their lives if need be for South Korea.
I see this time and time again where we help too much and the country that we help chafes at it and feels impotent. The same thing happened in Germany. The minute we're no longer needed in Iraq, we should leave so that they continue to be our friends (with their honor intact).
That strategy's so dumb it can only come from an NK mole in the SK government.
Gee do you think they will repay the countless billions we've spent to keep our troops over there for the past 40+ years?
Time to take the US military from there.
It was time, quite a while ago. This country has too many issues to deal with, that are costing way too many taxpayer dollars, that need to be focused on at home. Enough is enough -- the American taxpayer is way over-taxed, and getting out of S. Korea is just a good start at cleaning up Washington policy and our expenditures and over-comittments.
OK. Fine. Enjoy your new friends. And say goodbye to freedom and the capitalism that has made your country rich. We're outta here. Hey, no hard feelings, right? All those American boys who died for your country's freedom--we don't mind about them at all.
They've been working it for 50+ years now.
This may be good news. There is no major reason other than ideological reasons to protect S. Korea. If they want to get in bed with the communists, let them. We can better use the troops in other places.
As long as we maintain ties with Japan we should be in good shape in the Pacific theatre. The only other strategic goal in the Asian theatre should be the protection of the shipping lanes in the Southeastern lanes.
My personal opinion is that going to war with N. Korea over S. Korea or China over Taiwan is not in the interests of the USA. We don't have anything to gain materially from a conflict like this. We just threaten both with massive nuclear retaliation if they threaten us. These folks are not idealogues or religious zealots ready to destroy the world for their phillosophies like the muslim extremists.
I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
As Dr.K had quoted in his book "DIPLOMACY"
"COUNTRIES have NO permanent friends or permanent
ONLY permanent self-interests"
We need to re-militarize Japan. And screw the Chinese and SK criticism of Japan History. It is meant to keep Japan weak and China+NK strong.
The word "useful idiot" must be invented to describe Roh Moo-hyun. Not only is he clueless but unpredictable. He says one thing in one day and another thing in another day. Or he says something and his spokesman spins it away furiously.
He is courting a major disaster. The only upside of it is that he and his sorry support base would collapse in the process, along with Kim Jong-il.
I begin to fear that S. Korea would go through its dangerous period in recent history. I see people blissfully ignorant of looming catastrophe, probably worse than IMF crisis in 1997. '97 crisis dealt severe blow to conservatives in S. Korea, which gave momentum to the rise of the left. Now, it is the S. Korean left's turn to get mortally hit. Afterwards, the country would need a lot of fixing.
Lets leave and do nothing when they get over run by the NK/China/Russian invasion.
Is it the bad news?
They shouldn't be getting F-15s from us if thats how they are going to treat us!
We need a score card - something like:
Old Allies leaving us:
France (I know, I know..)
Canada (in name only, we're stuck with each other)
New Allies joining us:
Eastern 'New' Europe
Interesting potential new ally:
Russia - drifts towards us, then away, having an identity crisis?
Japan - an ally that seems to be testing the waters of beefing up their military?
Who am I forgetting?
Consider the source. If anything this seems as a left handed commercial to induce people to subscribe to the net site and the others linked at the bottom of the page.
My dad spilled his blood on that soil. He spent months in hospitals for helping to protect those people. If they want to snub the US, let 'em. I'm all for letting them be hoisted with their own petards. If they want to lay down with dogs like China and Russia to protect them the NK's htey'll wake up with worse than fleas.
So yes, it's a good thing if we now have a reason to finally pull our troops out. I just hope we don't have a misguided president in a few years who thinks it's in our interests to go back in when their inevitable call comes for us to come die on their behalf again.
I am reading a book, the New Chinese Empire. I am all for buying cheap products overseas, but not when they use the money to point missiles at me!
(Post) The Cylon Empire and the PRC (Peoples Republic of China)
NixFlix.com ^ | 4/6/2005 | marylandrepub1
Posted on 04/06/2005 11:19:15 AM PDT by marylandrepub1
"...who am i forgetting?..."
South America, especially after the Carter/Panama Canal fiasco and Chinese subsequent presence there. The place is turning into a Castroite enclave, and it's right in our backyard.
Yes, I've heard that Chavez is trying to estabilish relations with DPRK and China.
I hope all the free traitors someday take notice. Everday there is more and more saber rattling by china and new alliances that are against the US.
Keep shopping at wal-mart folks.
"So yes, it's a good thing if we now have a reason to finally pull our troops out. I just hope we don't have a misguided president in a few years who thinks it's in our interests to go back in when their inevitable call comes for us to come die on their behalf again."
I agree completely.
When we pull our troops out of Seoul or anywhere else I will believe it. Personally I don't think it will happen. Those bases are almost like Pork. Somebody in the gubmint is getting their palms greased to keep the bases where they are at.
I rememebr the BJ president saying the troops will be out of Bosnia in 5 years. Yeah right, 7-8 years later still there.
I think you are correct. A lot of money trading hands when millitary bases are involved. Rumsfeld has beein floating this baloon of repositioning for several years now though.
Pull the troops NOW. See how long it takes North Korea to cross the DMZ.
South Korea must be looking for something.
Just let them talk and let them do their thing. They will fall on their face and when they do they will cry for help AND blame us for their failing.
We need not do anything. Just wait. N. Korea will lift its ugly head (As it periodically does), China is behind N. Korea. Who are the S. Koreans trying to fool? Those people they want to have better relations with want them dead, crushed, annihilated. They are acting out a fantasy that could seriously backfire on them. When it does, they will blame the US and some grand conspiracy of how we are the force that is keeping them divided. Many there really believe that the US is the force behind the division and driving a wedge between the North and South.
Reality is, the US is about the only one that does not care and even favors unification IF the North were to change its ways (We didnt oppose unification in Germany). Why are we the only ones that are not against it? Let me explain.
Secretly the S. Korean government fears unification. Think of Germany, the East/West unification times a BAZILION. You think the DDR was bad? N. Korea would bankrupt the South, and they know it. Japan fears a unified peninsula. They fought them as did the Chinese who also like N. Korea because they are a handy crow bar to use for leveraging against the US at certain times (US says theyll back Taiwan, coincidentally N. Korea acts up-strange how that works.). Besides, the N. Korean regime likes its pleasure houses, platform shoes and big parades. Unification can not happen with the old regime sticking to its power. Some people seem to forget that some of these guys kind of like living the way they do. Dr Evils (Kim Jong Il) opinions matter in this case. Ironically, some college students in S. Korea think the US is the force behind Korean division. Now, their left leaning anti US government after making all kinds of promises and (Oh-well bring N/S Korea much closer) is in power and is confronted with a difficult situation. They are expected to deliver by those who voted for them! Yea, OK- Lets see where this sunshine leads us :)
I question the validity of the source.
I believe Taiwan about has a lock on the microchip industry.
"We?" The Japanese are as proud--in a positive sense--as any people on earth. One may certainly hope that they prepare to protect themselves from the Red Chinese and the Red North Koreans--one suspects that they already have very serious contingency plans to do so. They certainly have the technology to compete with anyone in modern weaponry--and on fairly short notice. But it needs to be their choice.
MacArthur succeeded in demilitarizing Japan by understanding their pride, and working with their Emperor, as the spiritual leader of the people. The present "bull in a china shop" mentality in Washington needs to be very careful here.
Correct. Although the degree of North Korean/Chinese subversion of South Korean universities should not be understated. We should be wary of their becoming, at the least, a communist satellite country. This is the long-term plan of the Chinese Communist Party for their surrounding neighbors. We need to back out, meanwhile...flood the country with a bunch of East Bloc European 'teachers' who can knock the commies back on their ears....and at least prepare the next generation for what is coming.
Harry Wu might beg to differ, i.e., "Yes, they will trigger nuclear war to win. They are crazy."
Korea and Taiwan both have huge shares of the U.S.'s electronics market. China will, after capturing both Taiwan and South Korea, be able to monopolize its control over the supply to the U.S.'s electronics needs. We will then definitely be dealing from a position of industrial dependency...and self-created weakness.
And I would not be so sanguine about the long-term hegemonistic aspirations of China. They constantly accuse us of being the "Hegemon"...i.e., dominant power in all international relations. It appears to me that they are very envious...and that they are doing a great deal of "projection" here...what they hope to achieve: I.e., displacing us. Will that Chinese-Communist-Dominated world be one that will be better for Americans, our safety, liberty and prosperty?
Can we do something about it now, before the Dragon overtakes us?
Not if the psuedo Free-Traders continue to control our policies.
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, stated in the report "South Korea Extends 3,600-Member Iraq Mission", broadcast on December 31, 2004 :
"South Korea deployed its forces in the Kurdish town of Irbil last month, becoming the third-largest contributor of troops to the coalition after the United States and Britian."
Robin Wright and Bradley Graham, journalists, stated in the article "U.S. Works to Sustain Iraq Coalition", published in The Washington Post on July 15, 2004 :
"South Korea is increasing its force from 600 to 3,700." 07/15/04 R.WRIGHT & B.GRAHAM
Roh is a traitor to his own people and to the alliance as a whole. He is nothing more than a communist under the pay of other communists, or worse, even a mole. If he wants to side with the enemy then we should pull our troops out and put them in Taiwan.
"Can we do something about it now, before the Dragon overtakes us? "
Yes. But I don't think millitary intervention over Taiwan is worth the costs. Going to war with China over Taiwan would be tantamount to risking the Republic over a small island halfway around the world. The US Armed Forces and the POTUS are obligated to protect the Union, not Taiwan. In my opinion, the US Constitution trumps all treaties.
Your point about the electronics market is true. However, should we focus on creating an electronic manufactring base at home? Or should we prepare for war over this market? This is much the same dilemna as oil. But we can't provide enough oil domestically to meet our consumption needs so there is an argument for millitary intervention in the ME. We can certainly provide our own circuit boards and algorythms.
China views itself as the center of the world. It takes the "long view". China will not risk an all out challenge to the US any time in the next few decades. However, they have spent the last 15 years shaping their millitary with three goals in mind:
1. Recoup Taiwan and the Spratly Islands.
2. Repell any intervention by the US or any other regional power.
3. Exert its influence in the SE Asian and Western Pacific theatres.
Their millitary capabilities and geo-political strategy are designed to accomplish this mission. They have patiently been planning and building for this mission for over two decades. Unfortunately, while Clinton and Europe were celebrating the end of the Cold War, China was in full force production of naval interdiction platforms and tactical missle production. Its latest fighter is designed around the mission of taking Taiwan. The US would be forced to park its Carriers in deep blue due to the current subsurface naval abilities they have attained in the last 4 or 5 years. This greatly reduces the effectiveness of our strike packages and tactical air operations.
I don't know if you are old enough to remember the Falklands. But a rag tag 3rd world Argentina took a nice chunk out of Her Majesties ass with anti-shipping missles. These are very hard weapons to counter.
Frankly, I am afraid it is to late to solve this problem at an acceptable cost millitarily. I have been harping on this subject to my friends for 10 years. Bill Gertz and a few other prominent defense analysts were also but no one acted. Now it would be very costly to counter a Chinese grab for Formosa.
We need to accept that China is going to incorporate Taiwan. Hopefully peacefully. What we need to be doing is planning the long term containment of Chinese influence into to geographic and economic areas that are vital to our domestic needs.
No, we don't.
The consequences are far more potentially "costly" to us and our Constitution, to use your major consideration. They vastly outweight the "cost" of defeating China...if we do it today, rather than wait until they have perfected their strategic force compositions. Old enough to remember the Falklands? Heck, I am old enough to remember blast drills in Elmentary School during the Cuban missile crisis.
I may be an alarmist, but I am not a defeatist. I think we can still prevail. And we needn't even risk the carriers. We have already surreptitiously helped the Taiwanese arm themselves with their new supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles, and now a new Surface to Air Missile system as well. They will mass manufacture each...and be able to 'flood the zone' and create a 'cordone sanitaire' between the Straits if we can keep the Chinese IRBMs from wreaking havoc with Taiwanese C4I.
And if we are not caught off guard (a big if..which is why I favor taking an offensive posture) we have striking power even beyond the Carriers. The modified Tridents will be able...with stealth cruise missiles...to effectively mop up the Chinese coastal military installations at liesure (inclusive of their C4I, their IRBMs, Su-30 Bases, SAM-300 bases)...all comfortably out of range of China's new littoral ASW capability. The Carriers meanwhile will feint towards the Strait, but then stay in Blue Water as you noted, and be able to lead China's whole ASW navy on a wild goose chase out to sea...stringing out their attack force, and destroying it in detail. And then interdict and throttle China's oil supply. Our pre-positioned Patriots and Aegis SM-2's & 3's will throw up an aerial umbrella around the Island, and the cruise missile attacks of the Chinese green-water coastal flotilla will be dealt with at an effective interception rate of 99%...while being blown out of the water. Dicey business for our surface fleet, and costly, yet unavoidably necessary.
But, we need the political will to put this confrontation and these assets into play, and this is the real key, recognizing that time is of the essence. The vectors of change are against us. We need to get the Reds to tip their bloody hand too soon. Taiwan should immediately be encouraged to declare itself a sovereign, independent nation of China...now...while we still have the capability to effectively defeat China. Meanwhile, we need to deploy our Aegis seabased missile defense in detail (rather than squander time and money on the land based approach) and aggressively go after China diplomatically...and destabilize its occupied territories...and police state oppressions of its citizens. From religious persecution, personal liberty, to union persecution, across the spectrum. A full court press is required, isolating it, and calling its depradations to account.
I don't for a second think a China that succeeds in militarily incorporating Taiwan and South Korea into its evil empire, (and it truly is evil...ask the denizens of the Laogai) will stop at the Asian region.
They have revolutionized their military outlook...just as Alfred T. Mahan, and T.R. (then acting Sec.Navy) did for our country and its navy.
Their alliances with Pakistan, Burma, Cambodia,Brazil, Venezuela, Cuba, and their bases around the Carribean...the Panama Canal, and the Bahamas...and on and on. They have a far flung 'string of pearls' strategy for global domination.
Not regional in the slightest. They are laying the groundwork to become top dog.
If we are to effectively contain China, best to defeat it outright, and do so where it will be the most effective place of confrontation...rather than premature capitulation and 'letting the genie out of the bottle'.
Thanks for sharing your views!
The solution is simple. Open immigration with Russia, Korea, and China. Anyone from there who can afford to buy a ticket to America can come and get a green card, provided that you pass a background check (criminal record). A nation's wealth and power is dependent on its human resource, so let's suck out theirs.
At the rate that things are going around here, we'll be speaking spangalish in couple of generations anyway. So maybe with an influx of chinese we can offset the rising hispanic and muslim population here too.
shoulda left a long time ago.
taiwan would make an excellent aircraft carrier.
That is a wonderful tactical analysis. I mean that sincerely. If we were to analyze the situation in a vacuum, I would completely agree with your view.
However, commiting ourselves to this scenario would certainly end up in WWIII. As wonderful and mighty as our millitary is, there are too many opportunists in this world who will use the opportunity to act upon their own ambitions. We are currently embroiled in two conflicts with the potential for a third at any moment. To throw a major conflict with China in this mix at this moment is certainly not a good strategy.
I am not an isolationist by any means, but the cost economically, politically and millitarily to go to war with China over Taiwan is still simply not worth it. I don't mean to lend the impression that we couldn't stop the Chinese millitarily. What I mean to say is that it is not worth the costs.
I think it is in our best interests to accept this and develop a plan for containment. Much like the Cold War. It didn't make sense to challenge the USSR for Afghanastan, or Eastern Europe or any other land grab they made. Instead, we used a long term goal of containing their influence and eventually let their flawed form of government cave in on itself without any direct confrontation. The argument can be made that this policy saved 10s or 100s of millions of lives. That includes Americans.
You reference China's exerted influence in the western hemisphere. If you study closely, the sole purpose behind these strategic moves is to cause the US to think twice about intervention over what China consider's to be its "sphere of influence".
If you study China carefully, or read non-alarmist analysis of the Chinese state, you can see that they will soon implode. The communists may last a decade or two longer, but they are doomed to fade away into history's trash bin. In addition to this, China does not have the capability of supporting its own population. Here is where the true "China Threat" lies. If the Chinese continue on this growth rate, they will be required to attain natural resources they can't provide by themselves.
We need to be focusing on securing our major national security interests. Despite your argument, the fact is that the only fundamental security interests we have in East Asia are shipping lanes. Forget about Taiwan. We should be preparing for a major war in South Asia. All roads lead to the middle east. As i said in a previous post. We should be developing bases along the Malacca Straits and fortifying Japan and Australia, who the Chinese consider to be in their immediate sphere of influence. We should also be preparing for a major conflict in the ME. We are in the process of building a forward operating capability in Iraq and Afghanastan. CENTCOM is going to be where the next WW is fought. Not east Asia.
The world changed on Aug 7, 1945. China is not going to threaten our existence as a state our consider severe harm to the US. Why? Becuase they are intelligent enought to realize it would result in the utter destruction of their country. There is nothing for China to gain by challenging the US on a grand scale. Our market is the greatest market on the face of this planet. It would be ludicrous for them to hurt that market when it is what feeds a large part of their population or bring certain destruction on their country.
We should arm the Taiwaneese to the teeth and ignore the Chinese protests. I don't want to see China take Taiwan and if Taiwaneese want to be independent of China, they can fight for their own independence. I'm not advocating abonding them.
We should arm the Japaneese and encorage Australia to make major increases in defense spending. Many friendly southeast asian nations like Malyasia should be brought into a new NATO type organisation. Most of all, we should be forging a strong relationship with India to counter the Chinese and more than likely the Pakistanis. I
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.