www.jest.art.pl
Posted on 04/17/2005 1:35:25 PM PDT by neverdem
IZMIR, Turkey, April 17 - The Turkish State Archive issued today a list of more than 523,000 Turks whom it said were killed by Armenians in Turkey between 1910 and 1922.
The move appeared intended to counter longstanding Armenian contentions that Turkish Ottoman officials committed genocide during a period of mass deportations of Armenians that began in 1915.
Turkey fears that the 90th anniversary of the start of the violence, which Armenians and their supporters plan to mark on April 24, will cause widespread anti-Turkish feeling. It is also concerned that the issue could interfere with its plans to start talks with the European Union in October for possible membership. There have been growing calls from other countries for Turkey to acknowledge its role with regard to the Armenians.
Last week, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan and the Turkish Parliament called for an international study of the events of that period, but senior Armenia officials turned down the proposal.
Turkey flatly denies that there was any systematic effort at killing or forcing the Armenians out of eastern Anatolia, where the Armenians were trying to establish a separate state. with support from the French, British and Russians. Turkey contends that, instead, hundreds of thousands of Turks were killed by Armenians as they tried to establish themselves as the majority population in that region. Prof. Yusuf Sarinay said.
The list issued today was compiled based on reports by the regional authorities sent to Ottoman officials in Istanbul, as well as the written accounts of international observers, said Mr. Sarinay, the director of the Office of State Archives.
"Europe has used Armenians as a tool in extension of their policies over Turkey, for which Turks and Armenians suffered," Mr. Sarinay was quoted as saying by the Anatolian news agency. "Europe should also face her own history."
Hirant Dink, a leading figure among Armenians in Turkey called the list an official attempt to create an alternate version of an internationally recognized reality. He said that such documentary analysis and confirmation of its accuracy should be left in the hands of international academics.
"Figures and documents should be researched and analyzed," Mr. Dink said, "However, talking merely in figures means that Turkey doesn't understand the pain of the other side; what is undermined here is the conscience and human factor behind all."
this is breaking news ?
Yeah, Turkey is trying to cover up genocide.
Eh, though I don't know if it belongs on the breaking news panel.
How many Armenians left in Turkey - how many Turks left in Turkey. Case closed.
Buuuzzz. too late.. already been recorded for history..
Muslim gov't = exists by lies.. in every case..
Are the Turks now adapting Demorat tatics? LOL
Am I confused? I thought it was in Front Page News not Breaking News.....are they the same thing?
its been moved :)
Proof positive that the "victor" gets to write the history. Most people have never even heard of the Armenian Genocide. If Hitler had won WWII, you can only imagine what would have been written about Jews. Not much, most likely.
I have always bought the story of the "Armenian genocide", but statements like this one always give me pause.
What are the Armenians afraid of in studying events of that period? I have no dog in this fight, but I must confess curiosity.
Billion Moooslims, as well as Euros who are more concerned about staying on their good side, vs a few million Armenians... Think the deck might be a little stacked?
Wrong terminology. Islam was the motivating force behind the death marches.
Until the self-imposed genocide by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, whose anniversary of the take over of the Cambodian capitol happens to be today, the Armenian genocide by the imperial Ottoman Turks was the only other genocide of the 20th century that had any mention besides the Nazi holocaust of the Jews that I remember.
www.jest.art.pl
With all the wriggling they have done in the last 2+ years, they are nearly completely out from under their covers.
Then, there's the not-so-small matter of the current/recent Turk treatment of their 1/3 of the Kurds.
NOT a good country, Turkey......too many masks.
....Buuuzzz. too late.. already been recorded for history..
Muslim gov't = exists by lies.. in every case.....
I thought Turkey had a secular government....
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/turkey/pi_12_03.htm
Everyone knows how fair such studies are ! Incidentally, how many Armenians still live in Turkey ??
IIRC, Joey Steel wasn't too big on genocide. I think the closect he came to ethnic specific misery was the mass deportation of the Chechens and ignoring the starvation of the Ukraine. He inflicted his misery on many different groups. The Turks and Nazis were pretty specific about what folks they picked for killing. Stalin was an equal opportunity killer of the politically incorrect.
Occam's razor wins AGAIN!
This is incredible. I've heard of "the Big Lie" but this takes the cake. I wonder, is there a Muslim alive who does not spend every waking day either lying to himself or someone else?
Paging John Edwards...
Turkey did resent England, France & Russia for calling it out on the Islamics pogroms against the Christian Armenians that preceded the later full scale genocide. And this resentment may have been a part of the latter genocide. BUT the one European country that did stand by Turkey for the entire time was Germany. Germany even had military advisers in Turkey during the entire period - no doubtingly observing everything.
For those who are skeptical of the Armenian claim:
'...the Armenian Genocide gave Adolf Hitler... the hideous conviction that killing millions
of people was achievable. Some 27 years later, he reminded his Generals at Wansee that
"Who remember the Armenians?". '
Daniel Pipes
Library list bump
Apologies. Here's a more reliable citing for the same quote on a site that has the added bonus of more info & very good photos:
"Most famously, Armenians cite Hitler's speech to his Death's Heads, on the eve of the
invasion of Poland....According to the London Times, Hitler said, "Go, kill without mercy.
After all, who remembers the Armenians?" "
Nicholas Jubber "Who Remembers the Armenians?" Catholic World Report (April, 2001).
.... 
Big whoop-di-doo! Just about ALL of the Armenians were killed by the Turks.
At the same time the Ottoman state (a very secular institution by the 20th century) found it useful to relocate large numbers of Armenians. As everyone knows who's ever looked at any "relocation", vast numbers of people die simply by being moved. It doesn't even take intent to effectuate a high death rate under those conditions.
That is, the Ottoman government did not even need to intend to kill people; still it's beyond belief that they were unaware of what happens when you move people on foot vast distances. So, they knew and they did it and Armenians died.
The current Turkish state argues that it is not a successor state to the Ottoman government but rather a seperate revolutionary institution founded by Kemal Attaturk and young associates in the former Ottoman military. Therefore they argue that they should not be held accountable for the Armenian death marches.
Unfortunately for the Turkish government today, it is argued by many that it actually is the successor state to the Ottoman Empire.
In reality, the Ottoman Empire had been falling apart for quite some time, and a large degree of it's decline was due to the efforts by some large and wealthy areas to pursue independence.
Those places should not escape blame for helping create the condition that led to the Armenian death marches.
It's quite a list of states, too, including Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Greece, Egypt, Sicily (and by extension Iraly), Sardinia, Corsica, Morocco and other North African states, Iraq, Kuwait, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Palestinian Authority, Iran, Russia and various other places that had been part of that empire.
All must accept the blame for having let their empire turn into such a weak entity that in the end all it could do was kill it's citizens.
I expect an apology from all of them, not just the Kurdish and Turkish speaking people who occupy Anatolia!
Shirley Temple starred in a movie about a little girl whose father was lost in the Boor War. Because of that movie, most of the negative stuff about that genocide tended to be stuffed under the collective rug.
That didn't happen according to the New York Times you know.
"IIRC, Joey Steel wasn't too big on genocide."
Oh Really?
Its amazing how Papa Joes Famine stopped at the Ukrainian B order where 10 million were killed during World War 1.5 - more than all soldiers killed in WW I.
http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/famine_map.html
Bump again ... library catalog is down!
Armenian Deportees:
Photographs http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_wegner.html
Yes, but we have photo evidence of genocide, committed by the Turks, against Armenians taken by a German medic in WW1, who risked his life out in the desert to get it.
The American consul in Harput also hired a guide and went out in the desert and witnessed it for himself.
The Turks have been in denial of it for ninety years, now. It wouldn't surprise me if that is where the Germans learned genocide in WW2.
Denial of the Armenian genocide avoids reparations......
>>"the mass deportations of Armenians in 1915">>
That must have been when the Armenian couple who lived next door to us when I was a kid came to the US. Those people could have killed the Turks with their breath! What do those people eat?
AMIN AL HUSSEINI AS OFFICER OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE - 1915. 
AMIN AL HUSSEINI INSPECTING NAZI MUSLIM TROOPS - 1943
Some of my very good friends are Armenians, and even the most reasonable of them have a vicious hatred/distrust of turks.. they say its simply not possible to forgive them for what they did in the past.
HUSSEINI/NAZI/ARAFAT CONNECTION. (SNIP)
"These leanings never completely ceased. Hitler's Mein Kampf currently ranks sixth on the best-seller list among Palestinian Arabs. Luis Al-Haj, translator of the Arabic edition, writes glowingly in the preface about how Hitler's "ideology" and his "theories of nationalism, dictatorship and race… are advancing especially within our Arabic States." When Palestinian police first greeted Arafat in the self-rule areas, they offered the infamous Nazi salute - the right arm raised straight and upward.
The PLO and notably Arafat himself do not make a secret of their source of inspiration. The Grand Mufti el-Husseini is venerated as a hero by the PLO. It should be noted, that the PLO's top figure in east Jerusalem today, Faisal Husseini, is the grandson to the Führer's Mufti. Arafat also considers the Grand Mufti a respected educator and leader, and in 1985 declared it an honor to follow in his footsteps. Little wonder. In 1951, a close relative of the Mufti named Rahman Abdul Rauf el-Qudwa el-Husseini matriculated to the University of Cairo. The student decided to conceal his true identity and enlisted as "Yasser Arafat."
Writers: Paul Longgrear, Raymond McNemar"
THE ARAB /MUSLIM NAZI CONNECTION:
http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/medigest/may00/arabnazi.html
3. Official Soviet allegations of "kulak sabotage," upon which all "difficulties" were blamed during the Famine, are false.
14. While famine also took place during the 1932-1933 agricultural year in the Volga Basin and the North Caucasus Territory as a whole, the invasiveness of Stalin's interventions of both the Fall of 1932 and January 1933 in Ukraine are parallelled only in the ethnically Ukrainian Kuban region of the North Caucasus.
Stalin wanted to break kulaks and private agriculture. I don't consider starving multiple ethnic groups genocide. If it was limited to only the Ukrainians, then I would agree. But Stalin was an equal opportunity killer for all of his political enemies, e.g. Red Army general officers, Poles, Nazis, Trotsky, people of the Baltic States, Finns, etc.
Thanks for the link.
France calls on Turkey to recognise Armenia killings
EU Observer | Dec 14 2004 | Honor Mahony
Posted on 12/14/2004 10:06:36 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1301675/posts
Sultan Abdul Hamid II was also a despotic ruler, who did his utmost to repress, and in many cases, extirpate the indigenous Armenian population.
The only reason that these specific atrocities are highlighted is because they occurred within the context of one of the 20th century's most horrendous international conflicts, and because they marked the start of scientific, empirical methods being applied to the barbaric practice of ethnic/racial/religious genocide.
In fact, Nazi Germany would go on to replicate-albeit, on a much grander scale-many of the same methods first used by the Ottoman Empire two decades earlier, during the Second World War.
Silliness. Even for those of us who used to regard the Turks as allies - I am one - there remains the historical fact that the Armenian holocaust happened. It cannot be minimized and it cannot be denied, and it cannot be evaded by charges of moral equivalency. One and a half million Armenians died, and the responsible parties went on to rule Turkey after the Ottoman Empire broke up. No one has ever been called to account.
"Massacres Of Sultan Adbul Amid" (snip)
http://www.ourararat.com/eng/e_sultan.htm
"At last in 1894, the limited and scattered massacres turned into mass murders that spread all over the empire. Suddenly the number of murdered reached a rare level, and the massacring of Armenians generalized and spread contagiously from place to place. First the matter started because the Armenians of the mountainous region of Sasoun, located in Bitlis province, stood up against criminal encroachments of Kurds. At the same time, the Turkish army joined in the attacks on Armenians, first burning some Armenian villages and then murdering thousands, cooperating with Kurds. The European powers with, England at the head, intervened in order to stop the massacres and the Sultan promised some reforms to European governments by the particular trickery which he had. But the slaughters not only weren't stopped but also gained more intensity and speed.
In the slaughters of Armenians during the years 1894-1896, which harvested the Armenian inhabitants one after another, in Western Armenia and Anatolia (eastern parts of Turkey), Trabzon, Erzinchan, Bitlis, Van, Marash, Urfa, Bayburt, Sasoun, Mush, Diyarbakir, Erzrum, Cilicia (Adana), Angora (Ankara) ... , over 300,000 Armenians were butchered disastrously. For an example of their crimes, take the 28th of December 1895 in Urfa. Over 2500 Armenian men, women and children, fearing for their lives, had sought refuge in the altar of a church; undeterred Ottoman gendarmes set the church afire and its inhabitants were burnt alive.
On the 26th of August 1896, some of the Armenian youth, in order to draw the attention of the public figures of Europe to the events which were happening in the empire, took over the central bank in Constantinople (Istanbul), the capital of Ottoman, and asked that the Armenian massacres be stopped and that the promised reforms be carried out. But three days after the end of the venture, the violence of Ottoman Turks exploded and tens of thousands of Armenians were butchered and cut to pieces in the streets of Constantinople. These were vengeances which had been designed beforehand and led by Sultan Abdul Hamid himself."
JUST ISLAM DOING WHAT IT ALWAYS DOES TO INDEGENOUS PEOPLE.
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