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Cardinals Gather Ahead of Conclave to Elect Pope (NO Clear Favorite!)
Swiss Info ^ | April 18, 2005 | Crispian Balmer

Posted on 04/17/2005 3:52:49 PM PDT by NYer

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Roman Catholic cardinals started to move into sequestered lodgings Sunday ahead of a momentousconclave to elect the successor to Pope John Paul II.

The 115 eligible cardinals will enter the secretive conclave in the Sistine Chapel Monday with no clear favorite to take over the reins of the 1.1 billion-member Church.

Some of the red-hatted "princes of the church" held publicMasses around a rainswept Rome Sunday, refusing to speculate on the vote and underlining the spiritual nature of their quest.

"People think that we are going to vote like in an election. But this is something completely different. We are going to listen to the Lord and listen to the Holy Spirit,"said Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras.

In the run-up to the historic vote, much media speculation has centered on John Paul's closest aide and arch-ideologue Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, suggesting that the German prelate might head initial balloting.

But many Vatican watchers doubt whether such a figure,whose conservative dogma has polarized the Roman Catholic world, would be able to gain the two-thirds majority needed to become the 264th successor to the first pope, St. Peter.

That could leave the field open to a less divisive candidate who could bridge the numerous factions that have risen up within the largest religious organization in theworld.

The cardinals will hold up to four ballots a day until they reach the necessary majority.

Of the eight 20th century conclaves, none took longer than five days, and two of them were completed on the second day. It took just eight ballots over three days to choose the relatively unknown Karol Wojtyla of Poland as Pope John Paul in1978.

Whereas in past conclaves, the elderly cardinals were forced to live in cramped cells inside a sealed-off SistineChapel, this time around they will sleep in the plush Santa Marta residence, built within the Vatican's manicured gardens.

The cardinals will dine together in the Santa Marta on Sunday night and hold a public Mass Monday morning in St. Peter's Basillica. At 4:30 p.m. (10:30 a.m. EDT) they will file into the Sistine Chapel to start their deliberations.

In the build-up to the vote, some 15 cardinals have been promoted in the press as potential popes, including Italian cardinals Dionigi Tettamanzi and Angelo Scola, Brazil's ClaudioHummes, Nigeria's Francis Arinze and the Honduran Maradiaga.

Among the major issues facing the Church are the growing spiritual poverty of Europe, the material poverty of the third world and the centralized workings of the Vatican bureaucracy.

The cardinals themselves have taken an unusual vow of media silence ahead of the conclave, adding to a sense of uncertainty and intrigue within the male-dominated Church hierarchy.

"It's very hard to know what's going on in the church, we feel that it's a different world from where we are," Sister Emanuel, who works in Australia and is on a retreat in Rome, said as she visited John Paul II's tomb in St. Peter's.

The conclave will be like no other election in the world.

There will be no press briefings after the ballots, no spin doctors promoting their candidates, just a simple puff of smoke from the Sistine chimney -- black smoke for an inconclusive vote and white smoke when a new pope is chosen.

In preparation for an eventual decision, Vatican workershave put up red curtains on the balcony of St Peter's where the new pope will make his first appearance to the world.

In the hours leading to Monday's lock-up, leading Catholics made final public appeals to the cardinals about the sort of pope they wanted to see step onto the balcony.

"Dear brothers, chose someone who will guarantee the freedom and openness of the Church," theologian Hans Kueng, one of the Church's most prominent liberal dissenters, said in anarticle in La Stampa newspaper.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: cardinals; conclave; election; nextpope; pontiff; pope; sistinechapel; vatican
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"Dear brothers, chose someone who will guarantee the freedom and openness of the Church," theologian Hans Kueng, one of the Church's most prominent liberal dissenters, said in anarticle in La Stampa newspaper.

Why oh why don't these liberal idiots who don't agree with Church teachings, simply leave and join those faiths that embrace them!

1 posted on 04/17/2005 3:52:52 PM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


2 posted on 04/17/2005 3:54:41 PM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


3 posted on 04/17/2005 3:55:31 PM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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To: NYer
>>>>Why oh why don't these liberal idiots who don't agree with Church teachings, simply leave and join those faiths that embrace them!

For two reasons: 1) They get media attention only because they are "Catholics;" if Kung, Curran, and McBrien went to join the dying Episcopal Church (which already has done what they want the Catholic Church to do) they wouldn't get media interviews any more. 2) They hate the Church and want to destroy it from within.

4 posted on 04/17/2005 3:58:48 PM PDT by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin
Interesting... I once read something that detailed why some theologians espouse the crud of the 'Jesus Seminar' -- basically, they wouldn't be famous if they didn't because the stuff they come up with is revolutionary and new. If they were just 'plain old theologians' teaching what the Bible says and what Catholicism teaches, they wouldn't be breaking new ground and making the news. So, it is kind of all about the five minutes of fame. What a cheap way to sell your soul to the devil, really.

Look at the success of a psuedo-historical novel like "The DaVinci Code" has had on the sheeple. Sad that people are so gullible and intellectually lazy.

5 posted on 04/17/2005 4:04:43 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: NYer
People think that we are going to vote like in an election. But this is something completely different. We are going to listen to the Lord and listen to the Holy Spirit,"said Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras.

And... it'll only take us 33 votes or so to hear him.

6 posted on 04/17/2005 4:10:14 PM PDT by AlGone2001 (You will never know that Jesus is all you need, until Jesus is all you've got-Mother Theresa)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

Stripped of his license to teach theology in 1979, Hans Kueng is a certified nutburger.

8 posted on 04/17/2005 4:32:57 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: NYer

Our priest said something quite enlightening today at Mass. Don't listen to the political pundits and talking heads. They're clueless; they managed to miss the past--what--five American elections. And now they tell us that they know the inner workings of a secretive election from half a world away.


9 posted on 04/17/2005 4:41:44 PM PDT by dufekin (United States of America: a judicial tyranny, not a federal republic)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Stripped of his license to teach theology in 1979, Hans Kueng is a certified nutburger.

And may I add, tedious beyond belief? He wrote one good book forty years ago or more, on justification, which was good because it was his dissertation and his advisor rode herd on him. It's been downhill ever since until he has just become a human cliche.

Actually, it's neck-and-neck between him and Charles Curran (another fossil dug up recently by the MSM) for the most mindnumbing liberal Catholic. In my whole education, I never threw a book against the wall but once. That was about twenty-five years ago when I read the following sentence in a book of Curran's (its dread banality is burned into my brain): "The modern man is always in search of more reality." That's about the level that Kung operates at these days too.

10 posted on 04/17/2005 4:48:57 PM PDT by Southern Federalist
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To: NYer
Since the Pope's death and the media has started all this hype about who the new pope might be, polls among Catholics about what changes should be made, etc. I have stopped watching the news on this issue. It is disgusting to me. People are expecting that the Cardinals and Vatican should handle things like a democracy - which it is not. And the journalists expect to get their "scoop" which, of course, they cannot. Ha! I am praying quietly to the Holy Spirit that the Cardinals will all be receptive to His guidance. No polls, no talking head, no pundit, no columnist, or no disgruntled Catholic will have any influence. That is just frustating them, and people who have little faith are spouting their opinions as though they were significant.

Just pray that the Cardinals (even though they have done their share of playing politics before they convene) accept the word of the Holy Spirit. I don't worry, debate, compare, or criticize. It is in God's hands now. The sanctity of the decision will be subject to the desire of Holy Spirit, no matter how many human feelings, actions, politics, or crafty games have played out before the pope is elected. Just pray and have faith.

11 posted on 04/17/2005 4:53:36 PM PDT by CitizenM ("Rise, let us be on our way" - Pope John Paul, II (noted in Ratzinger's Homily@ PJPII's Requiem ))
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To: NYer

"whose conservative dogma has polarized the Roman Catholic world"

The TRUTH, ie, conservative dogma, has kept the Church faithful to the teachings of Christ for the last 2,000 years. I wish Ratzinger was younger.


12 posted on 04/17/2005 5:17:22 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Choose life!)
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To: NYer; Salvation; All

Thank you this for all good persons
http://www.corchristi.net/spirit.htm

HOLY SPIRIT PRAYER
for the Cor Christi Trinitate Family

Come to us Holy Spirit as you came to the Apostles
Open all our minds that we may see the
hidden things of God
Send love into our hearts
like a flame of fire
That our lives may be changed
by Your Power
To do God's work on Earth
And bring people with us to heaven

Prayer to the Holy Spirit


O Divine Holy Spirit, Eternal Love of the Father and of the Son, I adore You, I thank You, I love You and I ask pardon for all the times I have grieved You in myself and in my neighbor.

Descend, O Holy Spirit, with the abundance of graces at the Sacred Ordination of Bishops and Priests, at the Consecration of Religious, and at the Confirmation of all the faithful: be light, sanctity and zeal.

To You, O spirit of Truth, I entrust my mind, imagination and memory: enlighten me. Grant that I may know Jesus Christ, the Divine Master and that I may understand His Gospel and the Doctrine of the Church. Increase in me the gift of Wisdom, of Knowledge, of Understanding and of Counsel.

To You, O Sanctifying Spirit, I entrust my will: guide me in the ways of God, sustain me in the observance of His commandments and in the fulfillment of my duties. Grant me the gifts of Fortitude and the Holy Fear of God.

To You, O Life-giving Spirit, I entrust my heart: preserve and increase the Divine life in me. Grant me the gift of Piety. Amen.



Something to say...
Verse of the Day

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26


http://www.geocities.com/mdj559500/holyspirit.html

be strong good persons


13 posted on 04/17/2005 5:35:02 PM PDT by anonymoussierra ("Et iube me venire ad te, ut cum Sanctis tuis laudem te in saecula saeculorum. Amen."Totus Tuus!!!!)
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To: NYer
"doubt whether such a figure,whose conservative dogma has polarized the Roman Catholic world, would be able to gain the two-thirds majority needed to become the 264th successor to the first pope, St. Peter"

I know I heard that John Paul II changed this rule so the Pope can be elected by a simple majority. Is this article that far off?

Ratzinger reflected JP II's beliefs, JP II was a great unifying Pope, why is it being said this philosophy "polarized the Roman Catholic world"? What a load of liberal nonsense. The Church's teachings on core issues are many hundreds years old. Why would a religion change its core beliefs to satisfy immoral liberals?

14 posted on 04/17/2005 5:38:16 PM PDT by Williams
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To: NYer
Here are the brackets...


15 posted on 04/17/2005 5:41:59 PM PDT by southernnorthcarolina (UNC Tar Heels: NCAA Basketball Champions 1957/1982/1993/2005)
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To: southernnorthcarolina

I'm rooting for Duke....but Arinze's acceptable too. :) LOL


16 posted on 04/17/2005 6:02:38 PM PDT by iceemonster ("Be not afraid")
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To: NYer
But many Vatican watchers doubt whether such a figure,whose conservative dogma has polarized the Roman Catholic world, would be able to gain the two-thirds majority needed to become the 264th successor to the first pope, St. Peter.

Yet another example of the media throwing out their opinion that the world is pining for a liberal pope. And liberal doesnt mean "anti-war, help the poor". It means a pope who will pull the rug out from under the church, changing core church dogma that has stood for thousands of years. I other words a radical reformer. And whenever that happens, people lose a little of their awe for the church as an institution and are more likely to thing they can/should steer their own course. Fortunately, none of these journalists get to vote.

17 posted on 04/17/2005 6:11:27 PM PDT by pepsi_junkie (Often wrong, but never in doubt!)
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To: NYer

Hans Küng is just a whiney old liberal who can't stand he was censured and silenced (as a Catholic theologian) by the Pope for being out of line.

Why doesn't he just become Lutheran and leave the rest of us Catholics alone? I don't know.


18 posted on 04/17/2005 6:31:28 PM PDT by Norman Bates (In memoriam: Pope John Paul II†, Theresa Marie Schindler†)
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To: Norman Bates
The Lutherans don't want him.

He's just a troublemaker.

19 posted on 04/17/2005 6:33:17 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Williams

If 30 votes have taken place and there is still no candidate with a 2/3rds plus one majority, the Conclave may decide whether or not they want to use a simple majority for electing a Pope.


20 posted on 04/17/2005 6:38:51 PM PDT by Norman Bates (In memoriam: Pope John Paul II†, Theresa Marie Schindler†)
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To: NYer

"Cardinals Gather Ahead of Conclave to Elect Pope (NO Clear Favorite!) "

Ratz!


21 posted on 04/17/2005 6:42:04 PM PDT by bnelson44
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To: NYer

Argh, all I hear on the radio (no TV, thank the Lord) is "don't forget the women" and "the Church must address the women issues" -- GAG. I am a woman and I like the Catholic Church just as it is, thank you.

The Church is not a democracy. It's not media driven. It doesn't have to explain to everyone why certain things are certain ways. They just are. If you don't like it, move on to something you do like. What do you think Luther and Henry the 8th did? "Go and do likewise."


22 posted on 04/17/2005 7:20:44 PM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (Gov'ments 7 Branches: Executive,Legislative,Judicial,Bureaucracy,Lobbies,Political Parties,Media)
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
It took ten days of intense prayer after the Ascension before the Holy Spirit descended upon the Church at Pentecost.

But that was planned.

The Spirit had to fall on Pentecost.

That was not a new Holiday. Like the events that unfolded on the Passover (crucifixion) and the First fruits of the Barley Harvest (raised from the dead), the Lord had it happen on a particular day.

Did you ever notice that there were over 500 people who were told to tarry in the city and pray for the promise of the Father? There were only 120 who kept that commandment.

And ... it was only seven days. We know that Pentecost 50 days from the Passover, and that He spent three days in the Earth.

On top of that, the biblical record states that He spent 40 days with the Apostles before His ascension. That means that they spent 7 days (50 minus 43) praying at the most.

And there is a distinct difference between voting for a new leader (which totally requires man's doing), and praying for the Promise of the Father to appear. If it were the Holy Spirit, why does He have such a difficult time agreeing with Himself?

24 posted on 04/17/2005 7:57:30 PM PDT by AlGone2001 (You will never know that Jesus is all you need, until Jesus is all you've got-Mother Theresa)
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To: Stingy Dog; southernnorthcarolina

"I hope it will be an Italian pope. We haven't had one in the lat 26 years."


That's fine , but if I see Dick Vitale come running out of the Vatican yelling "It's the Italian, baby!!!", I may have to stop attending Sunday mass.... :)


25 posted on 04/17/2005 7:58:49 PM PDT by Hand em their arse
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To: NYer
"Dear brothers, chose someone who will guarantee the freedom and openness of the Church," theologian Hans Kueng,

Translation: Dear Brothers, chose someone who will worship me as I do.

26 posted on 04/17/2005 8:06:32 PM PDT by pbear8 (Please,Lord, make the new pope really, really Catholic)
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To: Stingy Dog

I don't mind a schism so long as it is lopping off the liberal dead weight. Any guy who can piss off 70 Georgetown professors at once is a good guy in my book.


27 posted on 04/17/2005 8:46:14 PM PDT by ReagansRaiders
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Williams
Is this article that far off?

For factual information, go to the following thread.

LIVE THREAD - CONCLAVE

29 posted on 04/17/2005 10:58:17 PM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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To: southernnorthcarolina

ROFLMAO!

Holy Romans, Batman!


30 posted on 04/18/2005 1:27:11 AM PDT by LibertarianInExile (The South will rise again? Hell, we ever get states' rights firmly back in place, the CSA has risen!)
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To: NYer

bttt


31 posted on 04/18/2005 2:38:08 AM PDT by lainde
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To: ReagansRaiders

"Any guy who can piss off 70 Georgetown professors at once is a good guy in my book."

I'm matriculating at Georgetown in the Fall.

I'm gonna have to wear an Arinze T-shirt around to ward off the bad people. And I know I will have to go off campus for Mass, confession and the like.


32 posted on 04/18/2005 5:23:39 AM PDT by tlRCta (St. Thomas More, Pray for Us! St. John Fisher, Pray for Us!)
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To: dufekin

That's it!!!...we really NEED a Zogby poll on this papal election.


33 posted on 04/18/2005 5:30:04 AM PDT by Stand Watch Listen
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To: southernnorthcarolina
I just LOVE that chart!

But why Duke and not Notre Dame?

34 posted on 04/18/2005 6:14:03 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother

bc Dick Vitale is obsessed with DUKE, that is what makes it so hilarious.


35 posted on 04/18/2005 6:15:47 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: xsmommy
Thanks!

I am not a basketball fan (baseball is my game), so the only contact I really have with the sport is the lunacy that ensues around here every year while all the guys in the office draw up their "brackets" and place their bets.

Everywhere I have ever worked, there's been a huge office pool and scribbled charts discarded everywhere . . . so this is funny even for those of us who are just watching the passing show . . .

36 posted on 04/18/2005 6:19:19 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother

my husband and son are huge Big East fans and they can't STAND DUKE VITALE, as they call him! so i literally died laughing while forwarding it to xshub that even when it comes to picking the POPE, dick thinks DUKE has a chance!!


37 posted on 04/18/2005 6:20:41 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: xsmommy

Now that IS funny. Layers on layers. Whoever drew this chart up must know the game inside out.


38 posted on 04/18/2005 6:23:30 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: AlGone2001
If it were the Holy Spirit, why does He have such a difficult time agreeing with Himself?

It is not our place to question the Holy Spirit. If so, how come my prayers to win the lottery haven't been answered yet? I learned in my catechism classes decades ago that all prayers are answered in God's time, not ours. And sometimes we don't understand the answers we are given.

39 posted on 04/18/2005 6:34:59 AM PDT by phil1750 (Love like you've never been hurt;Dance like nobody's watching;PRAY like it's your last prayer)
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To: Southern Federalist

I thought John Kerry held the title for "Most Mind Numbing Liberal Catholic."


40 posted on 04/18/2005 6:44:03 AM PDT by Military family member (Bless the Legacy of John Paul II)
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To: Stingy Dog

I hope it will be Ivan Dias. NOT an Italian (no issue with Italians, lovely people, it's jsut that the church MUST be more cosmopolitan), in fact, NOT a European.


41 posted on 04/18/2005 7:33:53 AM PDT by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: xsmommy
bc Dick Vitale is obsessed with DUKE, that is what makes it so hilarious.

Coach K for Pope. That would make it two Poles in a row.

42 posted on 04/18/2005 7:36:05 AM PDT by dfwgator (Minutemen: Just doing the jobs that American politicians won't do.)
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To: dfwgator

i am sure Duke Vitale would be all for raising Coach K to the Papacy!


43 posted on 04/18/2005 7:36:54 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: Military family member

I guess I meant "Catholic thinker." The bar for being considered a "thinker" has been lowered considerably in religious circles lately, but I think you still have to know that there was no Pope Pius XXIII, and be able to tell the difference between John 3:16 and John 16:3.


44 posted on 04/18/2005 7:43:07 AM PDT by Southern Federalist
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To: Southern Federalist

Actually, the business about John 3:16 may be an internet legend. But adding 11 non-existent Pope Piuses is still a problem.


45 posted on 04/18/2005 7:44:41 AM PDT by Southern Federalist
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To: xsmommy
i am sure Duke Vitale would be all for raising Coach K to the Papacy!

"it's a slam dunk baby"

46 posted on 04/18/2005 7:44:48 AM PDT by NeoCaveman ("It's time for the constitutional option Senator Frist" route-82.blogspot.com)
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To: FatherofFive

That's my sole issue with Ratzinger - at 78, he would be unlikely to have a very long papacy. We need another long conservative papacy to uproot the last vestiges of liberalism.

Regards, Ivan


47 posted on 04/18/2005 7:45:30 AM PDT by MadIvan (One blog to bring them all...and in the Darkness bind them: http://www.theringwraith.com/)
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To: dubyaismypresident

to hear xshub tell it, duke vitale wants to have Coach K's child....


48 posted on 04/18/2005 7:45:46 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: AnAmericanMother; xsmommy
I just LOVE that chart!

But why Duke and not Notre Dame?

As a follow-up to the very good answer provided by xsmommy, we UNC fans had great fun mocking Vitale all season long for his worship of Dook (the preferred spelling of that institution by Tar Heel fans); we called him "Dookie V" because of his repeated praise, ad nauseum, of everything Blue Devil-related.

So we were presented with quite a dilemma when, with the field narrowed to eight and Dook having been eliminated, Vitale proclaimed that UNC would win the title. Many of us took it as a bad omen. Personally, I took it as a sign of intellectual and analytical growth.

49 posted on 04/18/2005 8:04:02 AM PDT by southernnorthcarolina (UNC Tar Heels: NCAA Basketball Champions 1957/1982/1993/2005)
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To: southernnorthcarolina; NautiNurse
well to Big East fans, i hate to say it but ya'll are tarred with that Duke Vitale ACC-lovin' brush! ; )

xshub is a HUUUUUUGE Syracuse fan, undergrad and law school, and it galled him no end that Duke Vitale has NEVER given SU it's due, even when they won the Natioal C'ship!

50 posted on 04/18/2005 8:06:58 AM PDT by xsmommy
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