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Letter from Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to Anglicans opposed to gay bishop
american anglican council ^ | Oct 9, 2003 | +Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

Posted on 04/19/2005 10:39:05 AM PDT by churchillbuff

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To: r9etb

Interesting, thanks.

I wonder if the Orthodox ECUSA coalition joined the catholic church then would the catholic church put their enormous legals resources to help them keep the physical assets of the parishes.


51 posted on 04/19/2005 12:26:01 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: traderrob6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_xvi


52 posted on 04/19/2005 12:44:50 PM PDT by stan_sipple
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To: TaxRelief

I am sorry but I think the Catholic Encyclopedia might have a conflict of interest. Kinda like when Muslim clerics claim Islam is a religion of peace. Every rational, unbiased argument I have heard point to catholicism as idolatry.


53 posted on 04/19/2005 1:11:33 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: econ_grad

"I am sorry but I think the Catholic Encyclopedia might have a conflict of interest. Kinda like when Muslim clerics claim Islam is a religion of peace. Every rational, unbiased argument I have heard point to catholicism as idolatry."

What "idols" do you believe Catholics actually worship?? Catholics worship Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Period. I'm sorry you're so misinformed.


54 posted on 04/19/2005 1:30:15 PM PDT by USArmySpouse
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To: RepublicanMensan

You must not be a good catholic if you do not know that catholics worship saints as well. Remember the words of Paul "You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led."


55 posted on 04/19/2005 1:37:52 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: RepublicanMensan

You must not be a good catholic if you do not know that catholics worship saints as well. Remember the words of Paul "You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led."


56 posted on 04/19/2005 1:38:04 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: econ_grad

We worship saints?

Wow.
I did not know that.

Thanks for informing me about this fact of my religion of which neither I nor anybody in my family or circle of friends was aware.

How are we supposed to do it?
I mean, evidently my catechism was very insufficient, as I do not know how to worship a saint. It seems like an uncomfortable and strange practice.

But you, who seem very knowledgeable of the Catholic Church, could perhaps instruct me on the process of worshipping a saint, which I seem to have missed all the way into this fifth decade of my life as a Catholic.

Do please enlighten me.
I am waiting with 'bated breath for this important addition to my knowledge of the rituals of my religion.

Thank you.


57 posted on 04/19/2005 1:42:24 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: econ_grad

Catholics do NOT *worship* saints! Some ask saints to pray FOR them TO Jesus! Just like asking your FRIENDS to pray for you. Except Catholics believe that saints may have a little extra "pull", seeing how they're, you know, saints. And, according to doctrine, Catholics are not even required to believe in intercession.


58 posted on 04/19/2005 1:45:14 PM PDT by USArmySpouse
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To: Vicomte13

I guess you never prayed to a saint.


59 posted on 04/19/2005 1:47:53 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: RepublicanMensan

Why bother? Why not just have a graven image of God and pray to Him directly?


60 posted on 04/19/2005 1:51:23 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: meandog
I have to admit that I much prefer Rite II BCP over 1928 version.

You might want to take a lookthrough the provinces listed on the page in my tagline. I believe most AMiA churches use the '79, and I know the APCK uses the '28 BCP (which I prefer) and some of its churches the Anglican missal, but I've never researched the various provinces otherwise.

61 posted on 04/19/2005 1:55:39 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Iran Azadi || Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?)
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To: econ_grad

I have asked saints to pray for me, if that is what you mean.

Right at the end of the Ave Maria I do it every time I sing it, which is just about every day:

Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Or, since I am singing it: "Sancta Maria, ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen."

Now, what I think I am doing is asking a holy lady to pray FOR me TO God, like I might ask you to pray FOR me TO God.

If I ask you to pray for me, or ask her to pray for me, as far as I know I am not worshipping either one of you.

You seem to know otherwise.
Enlighten me.


62 posted on 04/19/2005 1:57:24 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: Alkhin
I am only nominally cognizant of what you mean by the 39 Articles of Faith.

You can find them printed in the very back of the '28 BCP. Or online here.

63 posted on 04/19/2005 1:59:44 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Iran Azadi || Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?)
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To: Vicomte13

So, are saints demigods in your religion? They play some minor role before you get to the big league. Seems like polytheism to me.


64 posted on 04/19/2005 2:02:30 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: econ_grad

Ridiculous.
When I ask YOU to pray for me, I am not making a demigod out of you. I am asking a soul, precious to God, to add his voice to my own inexpressible groanings.

And when I ask Mary to pray for me, I am not making a demigod out of her either. I am asking a soul that I KNOW is precious to God, because the Bible says she was full of grace (I do NOT have that certain knowledge about you or any other living person I ask to pray for me) to add her voice to my own.

Where is the worship?
Where is the demigod?

There isn't any I am aware of.

Now, perhaps you don't like the idea of ever asking anyone else to pray for you, but that seems like a strange and singular doctrine of your own.


65 posted on 04/19/2005 2:18:12 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: econ_grad

Grow up.


66 posted on 04/19/2005 2:28:04 PM PDT by stands2reason (When in doubt, err on the side of life.)
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To: econ_grad

Not only do I have a statue of Mary but I have one of Saint Anthony too! And guess what? I pray the rosary and wear a scapular around my neck. How's that?


67 posted on 04/19/2005 2:29:20 PM PDT by cyborg (Serving fresh, hot Anti-opus since 18 April 2005)
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To: sionnsar
Thank you! Appreciate it!

In defense of the ACC, I again say I am only new member of it (only since 2001), and am learning slowly bit by bit the history of the Christian church in the British Isles, but since I have joined this particular church, which our Bishops and our Archbishop stress is a continuation, rather than an innovation, I have yet to hear anyone teaching me about the history tell me that the ACC supports any other doctrine than Transubstantiation. Indeed, we have in the past, lost the interest of several Episcopalians who quibbled that CONsubstantiation was the proper form of worship. Apparently, we were too Catholic for them in that respect.

I must also add that our church is NOT NOT NOT under the auspices of the Archbishop of Canterbury, just as it is not under Rome. This distinction was made clear by the fact that the ACC was formed to decisively distance the Anglican Communion from the heresies that were acted upon in the 70s...hence the Affirmation of St. Louis. Please check out the site if you wish to know more about that. The links are on the left hand side of the main page.

We use the BCP because it is closest to the traditional liturgy that the ACC wishes to uphold.

68 posted on 04/19/2005 2:43:14 PM PDT by Alkhin ("Ah-ah," admonished Pippin. "Head, blade, dead." ~ Peregrin Took, The Falcon)
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To: Vicomte13; econ_grad
praying in Communion with the saints is a function of humility. It helps to keep us in mind just who are we are in God's creation and how far we have fallen, that we are not worthy so much as to untie the strap of Christ's shoe. Those who pray with the saints feel that the saints are at least closer to God and that perhaps he will listen to them, who have joined the angels, than some poor sinner who keeps failing Him. It also helps in one's sorrows, knowing that there were those who suffered as well, if not more, and that if God had mercy upon them, then He would perhaps have mercy upon you as well. This is not idolatry. This is getting all the help one can get, because God is so big and awesome, we would be arrogant to think that we could lift our eyes to Him.

Humility is the key here.

69 posted on 04/19/2005 2:47:31 PM PDT by Alkhin ("Ah-ah," admonished Pippin. "Head, blade, dead." ~ Peregrin Took, The Falcon)
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To: jacquej
Am an Anglican by faith, but not a contemporary Episcopalian. Am giving up on the US Episcopal church, and am going to convert to the Roman Catholic church.

I am also an Episcopalian (half of my family is Roman Catholic). I have not been to church in years when the church turned left and left me behind. I too gave much consideration going Catholic again (I was baptized as an RC); but I tried, and just can’t do it. I live in Latin America, and maybe their views are different from U.S.; but I just couldn’t warm up to the snootiness and distance when I tried to talk with them a couple of times.

Watching the “marriage” of the Prince of Wales in St George’s chapel reminded me why I want to continue as an Episcopalian some day. The service was so uplifting.

70 posted on 04/19/2005 2:47:37 PM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: sockmonkey

My heart lept with joy to read this. I think you should prepare to lead many more in a like journey. I have a feeling this pope is going to cause a great winnowing.


71 posted on 04/19/2005 2:57:38 PM PDT by SolomoninSouthDakota (Daschle is gone.)
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To: churchillbuff

bump


72 posted on 04/19/2005 2:58:02 PM PDT by fso301
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To: Alkhin

I am sorry that is not Christian doctrine. Nowhere in the New Testament is such things clearly written down for Christians to follow. Also, I cannot find holyness of the saints in the New Testament? What makes them holy? Is there some group that has a monopoly on declaring people to be saints? I also need to know what is the hierarchy among saints. Are any saints "holier" than others? Should one pick a saint carefully for communion so that he can be assured that his prayers will reach God?


73 posted on 04/19/2005 2:59:27 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: cyborg

You are headed for a really really hot place for eternity.


74 posted on 04/19/2005 3:00:29 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: FormerACLUmember
Pretty clear to me.

Like some in this thread have mentioned. There is unity in the true faith in the Catholic Church. In a very innocuous way the Cardinal was encouraging the groups rebellion against a now totally rebellious Christian sect. He in effect left his calling card.
75 posted on 04/19/2005 3:01:03 PM PDT by SolomoninSouthDakota (Daschle is gone.)
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To: cyborg

What's on your dashboard?


76 posted on 04/19/2005 3:01:49 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Maynard Dixon Country)
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To: Utah Binger; Petronski; fortunecookie; onyx

a blessed virgin prayer card sealed to the dash with some spilled coffee :-)


77 posted on 04/19/2005 3:03:49 PM PDT by cyborg (Serving fresh, hot Anti-opus since 18 April 2005)
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To: econ_grad
No, no heirarchy. And what makes them holy are miracles attributed to their works and lives. And there has never been any statement made that one must pray to saints in order to achieve salvation.

As for your accusation that praying in communion with the saints (of which anyone who seeks out God and endeavors to follow Christ is a saint) is not a Christian 'doctrine', you are under the idea that tradition has no bearing on a walk in faith. You miss the point completely when you narrow it down to faith alone.

Christian 'doctrine' stands like a three legged stool : faith, tradition, and reason. But I would hazard to guess you have a problem with the concept of the Trinity as well.

78 posted on 04/19/2005 3:04:21 PM PDT by Alkhin ("Ah-ah," admonished Pippin. "Head, blade, dead." ~ Peregrin Took, The Falcon)
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To: fish hawk
Doesn't anyone have his picture?


79 posted on 04/19/2005 3:06:11 PM PDT by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb Republicans - Capt. Tom)
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To: econ_grad

Better stick to economics till you learn Catholocism. You appear as a brainwashed fool to the informed.


80 posted on 04/19/2005 3:06:47 PM PDT by SolomoninSouthDakota (Daschle is gone.)
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To: cyborg

"Being There" works for me.


81 posted on 04/19/2005 3:09:17 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Maynard Dixon Country)
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To: econ_grad
You must not be a good catholic if you do not know that catholics worship saints as well.

LIAR!

82 posted on 04/19/2005 3:09:22 PM PDT by Petronski (Pope Benedict XVI: A German Shephard on the Throne of Peter)
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To: Alkhin

The problem with mixing tradition and faith is that over time (and it is the case here), people confuse the two to be one and the same. There is a place for tradition and there is a place for faith. For example, objection to female ordination is based on tradition, but it has nothing to do with the Christian faith. The first person to start a tradition is by definition a heretic. I have a problem with anything doctrinal that is outside the bounds of logical interpretation of the New Testament.


83 posted on 04/19/2005 3:11:27 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: Capt. Tom

Thanks Capt.


84 posted on 04/19/2005 3:12:30 PM PDT by fish hawk (I am only one, but I am not the only one.)
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To: econ_grad; cyborg

God? Is that you?



Silly me. Of course not.


85 posted on 04/19/2005 3:12:46 PM PDT by Petronski (Pope Benedict XVI: A German Shephard on the Throne of Peter)
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To: SolomoninSouthDakota

What can I say my Bible is missing the section on holyness of saints.


86 posted on 04/19/2005 3:14:23 PM PDT by econ_grad
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To: jacquej

Welcome!


87 posted on 04/19/2005 3:15:59 PM PDT by alice_in_bubbaland (We will always remember.We will always be proud.We will always be prepared, so we may always be free)
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To: Petronski

"You must not be a good catholic if you do not know that catholics worship saints as well.

LIAR!"

When a Christian comes to the point in their journey that they "disover" the saints, they've found a buried treasure in the field. Our family prayers includes an invocation to each of our Patron Saints: Vincent de Paul, James the Apostle, St. Therese of Avila, St. Helen, St. Rita, St. Clair, St. Kevin, St. Ava, St. Joseph, St. Albert the Great, St. Leo the Great, St. Agnes, and St. Simon Stock. We try to lead our four children at home through these every night with simply St. _____-, pray for us. The saints are such a treasure of witness and powerful intercessors.


88 posted on 04/19/2005 3:17:37 PM PDT by SolomoninSouthDakota (Daschle is gone.)
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To: SolomoninSouthDakota

Nothing like a really good litany!


89 posted on 04/19/2005 3:19:35 PM PDT by Petronski (Pope Benedict XVI: A German Shephard on the Throne of Peter)
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To: Bosco

At the risk of sticking my nose in where it wasn't invited, I've never quite understood there to be that substantive a difference betweeen the two views of the communion host. Both believe that Christ is truly present; that, it seems to me, is the miracle.


90 posted on 04/19/2005 3:21:08 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: cyborg; Utah Binger; Petronski; onyx

My current dash is too 'swoopy' and curvy. I have a Crucifix clip on the visor. I had the Sacred Heart dash emblem, too, but it doesn't work on current dash.


91 posted on 04/19/2005 3:22:56 PM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: Clint N. Suhks
Am giving up on the US Episcopal church, and am going to convert to the Roman Catholic church.

I am neither an Episcopalian or Catholic but am a conservative, evangelical-type of Protestant. Congratulations on finding a church that supports the Bible and Christian doctrine! Cannot believe the US Episcopal Church has so heartily embraced Robinson & his evil dogma. Talk about itching ears.

Won't it be great to have a church leader who believes as you do? (Just in case you're wondering...no sarcasm intended whatsoever.)

92 posted on 04/19/2005 3:23:08 PM PDT by madison10
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To: fortunecookie

I have a rosary too. I never throw away rosaries that unravel themselves :-) My mom hung it up on the rearview mirror.


93 posted on 04/19/2005 3:24:17 PM PDT by cyborg (Serving fresh, hot Anti-opus since 18 April 2005)
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To: econ_grad

"What can I say my Bible is missing the section on holyness of saints."

Does your bible tell you anything about the year and date of Christ's death? No. But Tertullian did.
Not all our knowlege comes from the bible. Some pretty relevant stuff comes from other sources. Including the writings of the magesterium which established an institution that is both of a human and of a divine origin. The RCC established the bible. The bible is impotent in creating a Church.


94 posted on 04/19/2005 3:24:39 PM PDT by SolomoninSouthDakota (Daschle is gone.)
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To: fortunecookie; cyborg; Utah Binger; onyx

As soon as I finish (or start!) cleaning and detailing my car, I'll have to get something nice on there. My Sacred Heart Auto Club medallion fell off last summer. :O(


95 posted on 04/19/2005 3:24:49 PM PDT by Petronski (Pope Benedict XVI: A German Shephard on the Throne of Peter)
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To: Petronski

Amen.


96 posted on 04/19/2005 3:25:10 PM PDT by SolomoninSouthDakota (Daschle is gone.)
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To: Bosco
Are you aware of the Agreed Statement on the Eucharist?

Agreed Statement on the Eucharist (June 9, 1983)


  1. We agree that in the Eucharist the Church assembled is carrying out the injunction of the Lord to do what he did in the Last Supper, in commemoration of him.

  2. We agree that just as bread and wine became Christ's body and blood at the Last Supper, so do bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ when the Eucharist is celebrated by our Churches.

  3. We agree that the power of the triune God effects the change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. Traditionally, this has been attributed either to the Word or to the Spirit.

  4. We agree that the exercise of this divine power most properly is attributed to the Holy Spirit as source of God's action and grace in the Church. This corresponds well with the Spirit's role as life-giver, as overshadower in the incarnation, as sanctifier who sanctifies the bread and wine, become the body and blood of Christ, so that it sanctifies us when we receive it.

  5. We further agree that the consecration of the elements is effected through Christ, the risen Lord, true God and true man, who operates through the Spirit in the life of the Church. This corresponds well with Christ's role in the Last Supper.

  6. We recognize that some Fathers of the Church, such as John Chrysostom, Severus of Antioch, and Ambrose of Milan, have taught that the Eucharist is effected by the words of Christ, "This is my body . . . ; This is my blood." For when the priest pronounces these words during the anaphora, he does not do so in his own name but as representative of Christ and the Church.

    But since what Christ did, once and for all, is made present now through the work of the Holy Spirit, other Fathers have held that the Eucharist is effected when the Holy Spirit has been invoked upon the gifts of bread and wine.

  7. We agree that in the anaphora or canon the account of institution, the anamnesis, and the epicletic prayers are all integral parts of a functional unity, and that the function of each can be properly understood only in the context of their mutual relations.

97 posted on 04/19/2005 3:31:05 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Proud parent of Vermont's 6th grade state chess champion.)
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To: cyborg
I never throw away rosaries that unravel themselves :-) My mom hung it up on the rearview mirror.

I never do, either. I have a bunch in a variety of stages of broken and usable. Both my mother and my grandmother had a drawer full of tangled broken rosaries, in addition to usable ones, and prayer books. There are worse habits! ;-) I don't currently have one in the car though.

98 posted on 04/19/2005 3:32:25 PM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: sockmonkey

My wife and I have been active in our parish's RCIA program. I have a special place in my heart for converts. Welcome to the family.


99 posted on 04/19/2005 3:33:59 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Proud parent of Vermont's 6th grade state chess champion.)
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To: fish hawk


100 posted on 04/19/2005 3:35:43 PM PDT by monkapotamus
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