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Did Oswald train at Camp Peary?
Virginia Gazette ^ | Ap 1 05 | Paul Aron

Posted on 04/27/2005 10:24:04 PM PDT by churchillbuff

Did Oswald train at Camp Peary?

By Paul Aron The Virginia Gazette

A purported CIA memo circulating on the Internet says flatly that Lee Harvey Oswald was trained at Camp Peary in 1958, five years before he assassinated President Kennedy. The document is probably fake.

“This is one of those cases where if it seems too good to be true, it probably is,” said assassination expert Jim Marrs in an e-mail to the Gazette. Marrs is the author of the 1990 book, “Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy.”

The document, dated March 3, 1964, purports to be written by CIA director John McCone to Secret Service Chief James Rowley.

“I have no way at this point in time of determining if this document is authentic or not,” Marrs said. “As always, there is considerable controversy even among the experts.”

He added, “The significance of this document, if proven authentic, cannot be underestimated. The implication, namely that Lee Harvey Oswald was being used operationally by the CIA prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, is staggering. This means the assassination was not only a conspiracy, but a coup d'etat in this nation in 1963.”

According to the document, “Oswald subject was trained by this agency, under cover of the Office of Naval Intelligence, for Soviet assignments.” In 1957, Oswald allegedly was “active in aerial reconnaissance of mainland China and maintained a security clearance up to the ‘confidential' level.”

The document goes on to say: “Subject received additional indoctrination at our own Camp Peary site from September 8 to October 17, 1958.”

The mention of Camp Peary prompted a reader to e-mail a copy of the document to the Gazette. While it looks official and has the keystrokes of a 1960s-era typewriter, the image is impossible to authenticate without the original.

Most historians have placed Oswald en route to Taiwan with his Marine unit in September 1958, in which case he couldn't have been here then.

A CIA spokesman at Langley headquarters outside Washington would not comment on the document, other than to suggest a reporter “steer away from it.”

The CIA has always maintained it had no relationship with Oswald. Testifying before the Warren Commission in 1964, McCone stated, “Oswald was not an agent, employee or informant of the Central Intelligence Agency. The agency never contacted him, interviewed him, talked with him, or solicited any reports or information from him, or communicated with him indirectly or in any other manner.”

The Warren Commission's report, released 10 months after Kennedy's death, offered a clear and simple answer to the question of who killed the president: Oswald did it, alone.

Though the document is probably a fake, a number of researchers have previously suggested links between Oswald and the CIA.

Among the early critics of the Warren Report was Jim Garrison, the New Orleans district attorney. He undertook his own investigation in 1966. Garrison was convinced that Oswald was connected with two New Orleans figures, David Ferrie and Clay Shaw. According to Garrison, all three worked for the CIA, which was behind the plot to kill Kennedy.

Garrison's theory proved unfounded, despite generating new attention in Oliver Stone's 1991 movie, “JFK.”

John Newman's 1995 book, “Oswald and the CIA,” concluded he was not an agent, but that the “agency appears to have had a serious operational interest in Oswald and there probably was a relationship, though not that of an ‘agent' or ‘informant.'”

Newman argued that, “while Oswald wasn't James Bond, it is increasingly apparent that the agency's operational interest may have led to his use or manipulation.”

One claim that Oswald was indeed an agent came from James Wilcott, a CIA finance officer. In 1978, Wilcott told the House Select Committee on Assassinations that “Oswald was a CIA agent who had received financial disbursements under an assigned cryptonym.”

Wilcott cited informal conversations with co-workers. The House Committee concluded that his “allegation was not worthy of belief.”

Marrs' e-mail cites numerous ties between the CIA and Oswald. “Even if the document proves unauthentic,” Marrs wrote, “it is nevertheless true.”

Many historians have embraced Gerald Posner's 1993 book, “Case Closed.” Posner refuted much of the evidence conspiracy theorists had gathered over the previous 30 years.

More than any technical evidence, what has undermined many conspiracy theories are flaws in the logic.

The case against the CIA has generally been that the agency had proven itself willing to assassinate, having tried to kill Castro during the early 1960s. The motive for killing Kennedy might have been a fear that the president, embarrassed by the CIA's bungling of the invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs, might try to interfere with the other CIA operations and curtail the agency's independence.

Oswald was in a position to act as a spy, since he spent two years in Russia, after having been twice court-martialed by the Marines. A number of historians have proposed he may have been recruited by the CIA while he was a Marine stationed in Japan.

One problem with the theory that the CIA killed Kennedy is that Oswald appeared to be a committed Marxist. Another has to do with the agency's motive.

It was Kennedy who approved the CIA's plan to invade Cuba at the Bay of Pigs. He also brought the world to the brink of nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis, and it was he who escalated U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

So, JFK was hardly a president likely to close down the Cold War or the CIA.

Even if the CIA didn't conspire with Oswald, there remains the possibility of a conspiracy between Oswald and unknown disaffected amateurs, some of whom may have had connections with the CIA, anti-Castro Cubans, or the mafia.

Against the illogic of most conspiracy theories is the logic, albeit twisted, of Oswald's own mind. Norman Mailer's 1995 book, “Oswald's Tale,” portrayed a man clearly capable of shooting the president by himself.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: camppeary; cia; jfkassassination; jfkhit; oswald
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1 posted on 04/27/2005 10:24:06 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
Dan Rather is back!
2 posted on 04/27/2005 10:35:22 PM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: Travis McGee

Well ain't this special.....


3 posted on 04/27/2005 10:40:59 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: churchillbuff

I'm pretty sure the memos were written on a 1958-vintage typewriter.

4 posted on 04/27/2005 10:49:34 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: Squantos
Aww Jeez, not this sh** again.

Holy Grassy Knoll Batman!

L

5 posted on 04/27/2005 10:59:27 PM PDT by Lurker (Remember the Beirut Bombing; 243 dead Marines. The House of Assad and Hezbollah did it..)
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To: churchillbuff

"Grassy Knoll Alert"!!!!


6 posted on 04/27/2005 11:07:00 PM PDT by SAMS (Nobody loves a soldier until the enemy is at the gate; Army Wife & Marine Mom)
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To: Lurker

I've walked that place, grassy knoll and all....tried to think of all the possibilities. What if's etc etc......dunno. Never heard the farm story though....this is different......:o)


7 posted on 04/27/2005 11:10:00 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: churchillbuff

8 posted on 04/27/2005 11:18:04 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: churchillbuff


9 posted on 04/27/2005 11:18:05 PM PDT by monkapotamus
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To: churchillbuff

Did the document come from a Kinko's in Abilene, Texas?

I love the logic of "even if it's fake, it must be true". Where have we heard that one recently?

I contend there were two conspiracies - one to kill JFK which was most likely a mob hit, culminated by Ruby's sllencing of the most important witness at point blank range, and the other by the government after the fact to push it all on Oswald as a Castro/Soviet sympathising "lone nut" because they knew the public wouldn't accept the truth that the CIA enlisted the mob to kill Castro and that Oswald had ties before the assassination with known intelligence informants and operatives.

The government stonewalled the truth because it allowed them to claim they "got their man" without others prying into the larger intelligence quagmire but I don't think the government actually planned and executed the assassination because they wouldn't have let anyone as unstable as Oswald get near Dealey Plaza if they had.


10 posted on 04/27/2005 11:35:30 PM PDT by Tall_Texan (If you can think 180-degrees apart from reality, you might be a Democrat.)
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To: churchillbuff

"According to the document, “Oswald subject was trained by this agency, under cover of the Office of Naval Intelligence, for Soviet assignments.” In 1957, Oswald allegedly was “active in aerial reconnaissance of mainland China and maintained a security clearance up to the ‘confidential' level.”

That set my bogosometer to jangling.

It's inconceivable that the CIA or the ONI would train anybody for operational work without at least a Top Secret clearance, just for openers.

And...maybe my memory is faulty, but wasn't that "United States Government" on the letterhead centered on genuine stationery?


11 posted on 04/27/2005 11:36:54 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Malesherbes
“Even if the document proves unauthentic,” Marrs wrote, “it is nevertheless true.”

Mary Mapes will be glad to hear this.

12 posted on 04/27/2005 11:42:35 PM PDT by Tall_Texan (If you can think 180-degrees apart from reality, you might be a Democrat.)
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To: Squantos
I've been there as well.

I know I'll piss off a lot of conspiracy folks, but I think that Oswald acted alone. After all, he was trained as a marksman by the USMC and there is such a thing as the 'lucky shot'.

Couple that with the fact that high velocity projectiles do some pretty strange things once they strike something, especially something as complex as a human body and a vintage 1960 car seat.

Is it possible that Oswald was part of a larger plot? Yea, maybe. But I must apply Occams Razor to this problem and that tells me that Oswald was a lone nutbag who was in the right place at the right time.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary...

Take care my friend.

L

13 posted on 04/27/2005 11:57:11 PM PDT by Lurker (Remember the Beirut Bombing; 243 dead Marines. The House of Assad and Hezbollah did it..)
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To: churchillbuff

As far as I'm concerned, one can stop reading any article about the Kennedy assassination at the point where it trots out that low-life Jim Marrs as an "assassination expert". Jim Marrs is an expert at conspiracizing, and he has to be: for him, it beats working. Marrs is the Jesse Jackson of assassinationalia; if people don't believe in a conspiracy, then he's out of a job. His Rather-esque, the-document-is-false-but-the-story-is-true-anyway assertion says it all about him.

At least this article does its readers a favor further down (I know, I didn't take my own advice) by mentioning Gerald Posner's "Case Closed". I would strongly urge anyone who still believes in the conspiracy bullcrap to do themselves a favor, and put a dent in Jim Marrs' livelihood, by reading that book.

-Dan

14 posted on 04/28/2005 12:01:42 AM PDT by Flux Capacitor (Trust me. I know what I'm doing.)
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To: Lurker

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem........

Stay safe !!


15 posted on 04/28/2005 12:02:33 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: churchillbuff

16 posted on 04/28/2005 12:05:33 AM PDT by Slings and Arrows ("You would have to double your IQ to be stupid. " --zip)
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To: churchillbuff

Who's Norman Mailer?


17 posted on 04/28/2005 12:06:08 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: churchillbuff

I don't know about all that with the memo and what not. The one thing that's been a question in my mind since the Nov election was something I heard on the radio.

I can't remember which station I was listening to but they had an ex FBI agent talking about john kerry. And the one thing that stuck in my mind about what he said was that Oswald had stayed at kerry's cousins house for, I can't remember, maybe a week or two just before oswald went out to Dallas and killed President Kennedy. But anyway he said that john kerry had been going over to his cousins and hanging out while oswald was there.

Anyway, that all seemed strange to me.


18 posted on 04/28/2005 12:08:56 AM PDT by GloriaJane ("Democrats Stop Playing Your Block And Blame Game" http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/gloriajanemusic)
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To: Squantos
Damn, now you're going to make me brush up on my Latin.

You're a heartless SOB....(It's one of the things I like about you BTW.)

Good Night my friend.

L

19 posted on 04/28/2005 12:09:31 AM PDT by Lurker (Remember the Beirut Bombing; 243 dead Marines. The House of Assad and Hezbollah did it..)
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To: struwwelpeter; MeekOneGOP; PhilDragoo; Happy2BMe; potlatch; ntnychik; Smartass; Travis McGee; ...



              


20 posted on 04/28/2005 12:15:25 AM PDT by devolve (My WWII Tribute: http://pro.lookingat.us/WhiteCliffsOfDover.html - more traffic than DU-Koz-LDot -)
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To: Lurker

I used to be a believe that the mob had JFK killed, but after reading Posner I think Oswald acted alone too. The document is a fake through and through.


21 posted on 04/28/2005 12:57:12 AM PDT by KC_Conspirator (This space outsourced to India)
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To: Lurker
After all, he was trained as a marksman by the USMC and there is such a thing as the 'lucky shot'.

Every Marine is a "marksman" or they don't get out of boot. And Oswald wasn't much of a marksman --or a Marine either.

The Warren Commission went at the evidence backwards, given: Oswald, Kennedy, Connelly, Tague, and three bullets.

"How can we explain how the dead perp (Oswald) fired three rounds and killed the President with two wounds, injured a Governor with three wounds and also injuring a by-stander (well outside the line of fire) with only three bullets?"

Then add in the obvious (and admitted) stonewalling by the CIA and FBI, the whole mess reeks.

JMO.

22 posted on 04/28/2005 1:05:41 AM PDT by dread78645 (Sarcasm tags are for wusses.)
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To: devolve
Will the mysteries never cease?


23 posted on 04/28/2005 1:21:19 AM PDT by Sirc_Valence (Soy El Famoso Sirc Valence)
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To: devolve


24 posted on 04/28/2005 2:29:20 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP (There is only one GOOD 'RAT: one that has been voted OUT of POWER !! Straight ticket GOP!)
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To: Flux Capacitor

I'm always amazed at the amount of information these internal 'documents' contain.
Each one seems to give a brief biographical sketch of who, what, when, why and where even though that information may not have been requested.
No one can keep a secret, especially in such a far ranging and complex conspiracy as this purports to be. Someone would have talked by now - if they had anything to say that could be verified.
But, here's something for the conspiratorialists to chew on: Absolutley everyone connected with the Lincoln Assassination conspiracy (the only proven conspiracy)is dead. Pretty strange huh?


25 posted on 04/28/2005 3:18:10 AM PDT by Paisan
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To: Slings and Arrows
That is one funny doctored photo. For years that has been one of the best ones out there.

"Thank you, Dallas! Goodnight!"

26 posted on 04/28/2005 3:22:30 AM PDT by GOPyouth (De Oppresso Liber! The Tyrant is captured!)
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To: churchillbuff
A CIA spokesman at Langley headquarters outside Washington would not comment on the document, other than to suggest a reporter “steer away from it.”

That's all I need to hear. I'm outta here!

27 posted on 04/28/2005 3:31:00 AM PDT by Flyer (If I were 8 pixels tall I could fit in my tag line)
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To: churchillbuff
The Warren Commission's report, released 10 months after Kennedy's death, offered a clear and simple answer to the question of who killed the president: Oswald did it, alone.

And America bought that lie.


28 posted on 04/28/2005 4:54:13 AM PDT by rdb3 (To the world, you're one person. To one person, you may be the world.)
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To: Lurker

You ought to know, that rifle (bolt action) could not be fired that rapidly. Oswald was not that great a marksman.
I believe that there were three shooters; A professional
hit. Oswald was, as he said, a patsy.


29 posted on 04/28/2005 7:24:29 AM PDT by upcountryhorseman (An old fashioned conservative)
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To: struwwelpeter; Squantos

After the CBS fiasco, even the dimmest forger will go out and find an era-correct typewriter.


30 posted on 04/28/2005 7:26:51 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Lurker

While what you said does not piss me off

(Thank you for putting your argument out logically and not with an emotional "all conspiracy theorists are nuts")

I do have to respectfully disagree with you on Lee's training as a marksman.

Lee was at best, at best, a mediocre shot. He didn't have the skill to do the kind of shooting that would have been required that day. Lucky shot I could agree with, but what was done here was not doable by someone with his skill level.

I was a PMI (Primary Marksmanship Instructor) in the Marine Corps, and speaking from a professional point of view, it is my professional opinion that he did not have the necessary skills to pull this off.

Frankly, I don't think he ever pulled a trigger that day, but that's just an opinion not a professional one :)

Semper Fi


31 posted on 04/28/2005 7:41:37 AM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (3-7-77 (No that's not a Date))
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To: churchillbuff

While I don't know about the legitimacy of the "memo" the discussion of the CIA's lack of motive is absurd.

1- JFK had the BoP operation dropped in his lap. He hardly was involved in any planning of it.

2- He or someone in the administration dropped the crucial element of air cover thereby dooming the invasion.

3- After its defeat Castro turned to the USSR even more and allowed it to put the missiles in which FORCED JFK to respond. In other words that crisis was of his own making.

4- After the operation failed Kennedy had the top leadership, including the only Director in its history, canned and threatened to destroy the Agency.

5- JFK had escalated the Vietnam war only slightly and had indicated to his chief aides his intention to withdraw after the 64 election.

6- IMMEDIATELY after his death his policies in Vietnam were diametrically reversed.

Hardly a convincing argument that the CIA and JFK were on the same page.

BTW contrary to the opinion of some on this thread Posner's book is not authoritative and has many errors which have been pointed out by others. I found it deceptive and rhetorical in far too many instances.


32 posted on 04/28/2005 7:49:33 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
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To: churchillbuff
My father wrote a book with a woman named Marita Lorenz who contended that she worked for the CIA (not disputed) where she worked with Oswald whose mission was to kill Kennedy and her mission was to kill Castro. Long story about the book, but fascinating story. BTW, she went to Cube, but fell in love with Castro, had his baby whom she contends he had murdered. Fascinating.
33 posted on 04/28/2005 7:56:00 AM PDT by Hildy
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To: devolve

Thanks for the ping!


34 posted on 04/28/2005 7:59:27 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Slings and Arrows

It looks like the guy in the white suit could be wearing a bullet proof vest under there.


35 posted on 04/28/2005 8:09:34 AM PDT by uncitizen
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To: justshutupandtakeit

Well put.


36 posted on 04/28/2005 8:23:54 AM PDT by P_A_I
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To: Travis McGee

Like such a document would have anything less than a TS or SRD level stamped on it anyway..........no doubt it sold a few papers. This is just a NOC NOC joke IMO.........:o)


37 posted on 04/28/2005 8:26:15 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: Squantos
Wait for a German magazine to "find" a memo "proving" that Pope Benedict was Hitler's boy lover.

Yawn.

38 posted on 04/28/2005 9:34:57 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: devolve; MeekOneGOP; Travis McGee; Squantos; Leatherneck_MT; justshutupandtakeit; churchillbuff; ...
JFK

LBJ


39 posted on 04/28/2005 4:38:04 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: monkapotamus

In that bottom picture, the upper right picture is actually of Dana Carvey. LOL


40 posted on 04/28/2005 5:39:42 PM PDT by perfect stranger (I need new glasses.)
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To: Slings and Arrows
Thanks for posting. I expected to see this pic on the thread and if it wasn't I was gonna post it myself.

I've not listened to DK but I do get a laugh out of seeing that pic. But what's with that pickguard on the Tele? I've never seen one like that.

41 posted on 04/28/2005 5:46:40 PM PDT by perfect stranger (I need new glasses.)
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To: Hildy
That link doesn't work unless you edit the address by taking those quotation marks off the end.

Click here

42 posted on 04/28/2005 5:57:19 PM PDT by perfect stranger (I need new glasses.)
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To: PhilDragoo; MeekOneGOP; Happy2BMe; potlatch; ntnychik; Smartass; Travis McGee; Czar

 THEY ARE OUT THERE 


43 posted on 04/28/2005 6:04:37 PM PDT by devolve (My WWII Tribute: http://pro.lookingat.us/WhiteCliffsOfDover.html - more traffic than DU-Koz-LDot -)
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To: monkapotamus

Great montage....was that little twit only 5 feet tall? (picture with the "yardstick")


44 posted on 04/28/2005 6:15:20 PM PDT by ErnBatavia (I'm pleased that my banishment was reversed on appeal)
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To: perfect stranger
But what's with that pickguard on the Tele?

It may be a relic of the photoshopping process, most likely from editing out the original player's hand. FWIW, I'm 95% sure that that Tele is taken from a picture of Albert Collins and flipped left-for-right - note the humbucker neck pickup, capo, and strap over one shoulder only.

45 posted on 04/28/2005 6:29:23 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows ("You would have to double your IQ to be stupid. " --zip)
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To: Slings and Arrows
I see your point with the capo. Not many others used a capo on a tele other than him.

What was the point of the capo? I know he liked different tunings, but the capo seems like a crutch to me, but I don't play guitar too much.

46 posted on 04/28/2005 7:13:59 PM PDT by perfect stranger (I need new glasses.)
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To: ErnBatavia
"Great montage....was that little twit only 5 feet tall? (picture with the "yardstick")"

Looks like 5' 9" is at the top of his head.

47 posted on 04/28/2005 7:39:14 PM PDT by monkapotamus
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To: perfect stranger

The capo lets you use open chords and open strings in higher positions. This is not a substitute for barre chords; they sound fundamentally different - try playing an open G chord, and then a 3rd fret barre G.


48 posted on 04/28/2005 7:51:02 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows ("You would have to double your IQ to be stupid. " --zip)
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To: Slings and Arrows
It's not the standard for knowing how to play a song in a different key, it just makes it alot easier.

I think I get it now.

49 posted on 04/28/2005 8:07:24 PM PDT by perfect stranger (I need new glasses.)
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To: devolve

Ooooh, that is really pretty devolve. Sexy but pretty, lol.


50 posted on 04/28/2005 8:34:28 PM PDT by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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