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Note to Tom Sullivan: Thomas Jefferson was not a Deist.
World Net Daily ^ | 4/28/2005 | D. James Kennedy, Ph.D.

Posted on 04/28/2005 11:23:24 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau

Talk Radio Host Tom Sullivan, sitting in today for Rush Limbaugh, failed to challenge a caller (a self-declared "secularist") who labeled Jefferson a 'Deist'. Thomas Jefferson was no deist.

In the source column, Dr. James Kennedy wrote:

"While Jefferson has been lionized by those who seek to drive religion from public life, the true Thomas Jefferson is anything but their friend. He was anything but irreligious, anything but an enemy to Christian faith. Our nation's third president was, in fact, a student of Scripture who attended church regularly, and was an active member of the Anglican Church, where he served on his local vestry. He was married in church, sent his children and a nephew to a Christian school, and gave his money to support many different congregations and Christian causes."

Further reading of the column reveals this:

"Most intriguing is the manner in which Jefferson dated an official document. Instead of "in the year of our Lord," Jefferson used the phrase "in the year of our Lord Christ." Christian historian David Barton has the proof – the original document signed by Jefferson on the "eighteenth day of October in the year of our Lord Christ, 1804.""

Dr. Kennedy does believe (or he did at the time of this column) that Jefferson had rejected the deism of Christ in 1813, after his public career was over. But that in no way makes Jefferson a Deist, which is defined as one who denies the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe. To the contrary, Jefferson wrote in a June 26, 1822 letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse:

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.

1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect.

2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.

3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion. These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews."

A belief that there is a future state of rewards and punishments (as Jefferson believed) denies the basic premise of Deism -- that the creator does not interfere with the laws of the universe. Jefferson was no deist.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: churchandstate; deism; deist; dhpl; djameskennedy; foundingfathers; limbaugh; thomasjefferson; tomsullivan
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A FR discussion of Dr.Kennedy's article, posted on June 19, 2002, can be found at this URL:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/702356/posts

1 posted on 04/28/2005 11:23:32 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Interesting. So what was the deal with the "Jefferson Bible"?


2 posted on 04/28/2005 11:24:50 AM PDT by k2blader (Immorality bites.)
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To: k2blader

>> Interesting. So what was the deal with the "Jefferson Bible"?

I apologize for accidently putting my handle in the space where Dr. Kennedy's name should be. Dr. Kennedy wrote in the column:

"So what about the Jefferson Bible, that miracles-free version of the Scriptures? That, too, is a myth. It is not a Bible, but an abridgement of the Gospels created by Jefferson in 1804 for the benefit of the Indians. Jefferson's "Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted From the New Testament for the Use of the Indians" was a tool to evangelize and educate American Indians. There is no evidence that it was an expression of his skepticism. "


3 posted on 04/28/2005 11:27:42 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau (Congress is defined as the United States Senate and House of Representatives; now read 1st Amendment)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Jefferson certainly wasn't a Christian in the traditional sense. He was opposed to celebrating Thanksgiving as a national Holiday because he felt it was too religious.


4 posted on 04/28/2005 11:29:29 AM PDT by Borges
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To: PhilipFreneau

If Jefferson was so religious, why then did he start an evil worshipping, US hating, muderer loving, tax the people to death cult called the Democ-rat party?


5 posted on 04/28/2005 11:30:10 AM PDT by Imaverygooddriver (ALL YOU BASE ARE BELONG TO US)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Thanks!


6 posted on 04/28/2005 11:31:48 AM PDT by ConservativeMind
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To: PhilipFreneau

Ah, thank you. I should've gone to read the whole thing.

Bookmarking!


7 posted on 04/28/2005 11:32:01 AM PDT by k2blader (Immorality bites.)
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To: k2blader
Interesting. So what was the deal with the "Jefferson Bible"?

The so-called "Jefferson Bible" was an attempt by Jefferson to isolate what he believed the moral core of Christ's teaching was.

It is basically a redaction of the Four Gospels to eliminate all the miraculous elements of the text in favor of the didactic.

This is a facile undertaking, but he thought it was instructive.

It was not intended to be published but was made for his own study.

8 posted on 04/28/2005 11:32:13 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake

Sort of like Tolstoy taking only the 'Sermon on the Mount' and rejecting everything else.


9 posted on 04/28/2005 11:35:12 AM PDT by Borges
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To: PhilipFreneau
I've been debating foolish secularists for years. People who barely even know what they are talking about when they say "the founders weren't theists - they were deists". It's as old as the hills. It's part of a smoke screen that creates the appearance of an argument so that neutral onlookers will stay neutral - that's sufficient for their purposes.

But at the heart, there is something interesting there. Once in a while, you run up against someone who knows what they are talking about using a form of that argument in some context.

10 posted on 04/28/2005 11:35:35 AM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: Imaverygooddriver

The democrat party of today was founded by FDR. The old, great democrats, like Cleveland, Horatio Seymour, and even Al Smith wouldn't recognize their party today. Jackson, Van Buren, Polk, and Lewis Cass were all great men worthy of following. It wasn't always like it is today.


11 posted on 04/28/2005 11:36:20 AM PDT by cotton1706
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To: PhilipFreneau
"While Jefferson has been lionized by those who seek to drive religion from public life, the true Thomas Jefferson is anything but their friend."

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823:

"One day the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in the United States will tear down the artificial scaffolding of Christianity. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
12 posted on 04/28/2005 11:36:31 AM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: Imaverygooddriver
Really, Jefferson's "Democratic Republicans" evolved into the "Republicans" of the 1810-1824 period when the Federalists disappeared. It is simply wrong to claim he is the "founder" of the modern Dems---that was Martin Van Buren and Andrew Jackson, who created the Jacksonian Democrats in 1824. See the excellent chart on this that my co-author, Mike Allen, did in our book:


13 posted on 04/28/2005 11:37:45 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: Borges
He was opposed to celebrating Thanksgiving as a national Holiday because he felt it was too religious

Actually from reading he signed the proclamations at the state level. However, he did oppose it at the national level, as any good conservative would. It's not the business of the national government to set aside days for holidays. This goes for every major holiday, special day, birthday, etc. recognized by the national government. If the states want to, which they did and still do, let them handle holidays.

14 posted on 04/28/2005 11:39:02 AM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: PhilipFreneau
So what about the Jefferson Bible, that miracles-free version of the Scriptures? That, too, is a myth. It is not a Bible, but an abridgement of the Gospels created by Jefferson in 1804 for the benefit of the Indians.

That's misleading. No one knows *exactly* why Jefferson created such a work other than Jefferson himself.

Jefferson's "Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted From the New Testament for the Use of the Indians" was a tool to evangelize and educate American Indians.

If I remember correctly, that's what one of the drafts was titled. But Jefferson never directly referred to it as such.

There is no evidence that it was an expression of his skepticism

I would say it's the most likely based on his correspondence to others about it.

If nothing else, it's irrefutable that Jefferson rejected what he saw as the supernatural apsects of Christianity - the Virgin Birth, Immaculate Conception, Resurrection, miracles, etc.

15 posted on 04/28/2005 11:40:45 AM PDT by gdani
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To: wideawake

I've seen the Jefferson Bible; it's still sold in Charlottesville, VA today. However, I believe that Jefferson probably grew less deistic as he got older. As I read his later comments, they do not sound like words from a deist either. I haven't done a study on his writings, so I don't really know. It's a hunch.


16 posted on 04/28/2005 11:41:32 AM PDT by twigs
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To: BikerNYC

You forgot the first part of this quote.

"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors."

And the last line.


17 posted on 04/28/2005 11:44:57 AM PDT by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: PhilipFreneau

bump


18 posted on 04/28/2005 11:46:16 AM PDT by bubman
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To: BikerNYC

Yes, he did write these things. But he wrote other things that would argue against deistic tendencies as well. I remember reading what was written on the Jefferson Memorial and being really surprised. His writing that slavery concerned him because we have a just God is not the view of a man who believed that God was passive and no longer involved in the events of man. Jefferson is a complex man and taking a few of his words will never give adequate evidence of the totality and complexity, the nuance if you will, of his thoughts.


19 posted on 04/28/2005 11:46:36 AM PDT by twigs
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To: twigs
However, I believe that Jefferson probably grew less deistic as he got older.

I agree, and the totality of his writings show that. But reason falls to current politics with statements like this:

Dr. Kennedy does believe (or he did at the time of this column) that Jefferson had rejected the deism of Christ in 1813, after his public career was over.

Utterly bogus. An attempt to Christianize Jefferson at the time of the Declaration of Independence by flipping his history.

20 posted on 04/28/2005 11:47:17 AM PDT by Shermy
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To: Bigh4u2
The surrounding sentences are in keeping with Jefferson's letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814:

“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own”
21 posted on 04/28/2005 11:48:49 AM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: BikerNYC

Nice selective quoting.


22 posted on 04/28/2005 11:49:43 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Borges
Sort of like Tolstoy taking only the 'Sermon on the Mount' and rejecting everything else.

Good analogy.

23 posted on 04/28/2005 11:50:21 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Imaverygooddriver

>> If Jefferson was so religious, why then did he start an evil worshipping, US hating, muderer loving, tax the people to death cult called the Democ-rat party?

He didn't. The so-called "Democratic-Republican Party", also called the Republican Party by Jefferson, was started by Jefferson and Madison in 1792 in opposition to the Federalist Party. The Republican Party's ideology was close to that of the anti-Federalists, promoting a weak federal government, with the bulk of the power resting in the states.

The party named "the Democratic Party" was formed in 1828 after the Republican Party splintered into the Whigs and the Democratic Party. This was the origin of the modern-day Democratic Party; but it was in no way ideologically similar to the modern-day democrats.

The original Democratic Party was a states-rights party, like the modern-day conservative branch of the republican party (it was, after all, the party of Andrew Jackson). The Democratic Party's ideology evolved (or became bastardized) in the 20th Century from a limited-federal government, strong state's rights party, to a strong federal government, limited state's rights party.


24 posted on 04/28/2005 11:50:57 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau (Congress is defined as the United States Senate and House of Representatives; now read 1st Amendment)
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To: twigs
Jefferson is a complex man and taking a few of his words will never give adequate evidence of the totality and complexity, the nuance if you will, of his thoughts.

This is true.
25 posted on 04/28/2005 11:51:08 AM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: cotton1706

I seriously doubt that even JFKennedy would recognize the Democrat Party of today. LBJ would.


26 posted on 04/28/2005 11:52:11 AM PDT by norge
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To: b4its2late; Recovering_Democrat; Alissa; Pan_Yans Wife; LADY J; mathluv; browardchad; cardinal4; ...

27 posted on 04/28/2005 11:57:31 AM PDT by Born Conservative ("Mr. Chamberlain loves the working man, he loves to see him work" - Winston Churchill)
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To: PhilipFreneau

I don't find that him going to church and so on is great evidence of him being a believer. Even today it is expected that our leaders go to church. Why would anyone expect it to be different in Jefferson's time?


28 posted on 04/28/2005 11:58:39 AM PDT by Mr. Blonde (You know, Happy Time Harry, just being around you kinda makes me want to die.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

"He didn't. The so-called "Democratic-Republican Party", also called the Republican Party by Jefferson, was started by Jefferson and Madison in 1792 in opposition to the Federalist Party. The Republican Party's ideology was close to that of the anti-Federalists, promoting a weak federal government, with the bulk of the power resting in the states. "



Thanks for handling this, Philip. Nice post that hopefully provided some education.


29 posted on 04/28/2005 12:01:46 PM PDT by Blzbba ("Under every stone lurks a politician. " Aristophanes, 410 BC)
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To: Born Conservative
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." President Thomas Jefferson

"Of all systems of morality, ancient of modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson To William Canby, 1813

"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..." President Thomas Jefferson

“I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make better citizens, better fathers, better husbands... the Bible makes the best people in the world." President Thomas Jefferson

"My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others—" Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush On April 21, 1803

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a cisciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator." Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his Bible.
30 posted on 04/28/2005 12:06:18 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: PhilipFreneau

*Bump*


31 posted on 04/28/2005 12:06:42 PM PDT by Yardstick
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To: NutCrackerBoy
I've been debating foolish secularists for years. People who barely even know what they are talking about when they say "the founders weren't theists - they were deists".

At that point, I usually just curtail the discussion because I know I am dealing with someone who hasn't the slightest idea what they are talking about.

32 posted on 04/28/2005 12:09:18 PM PDT by Skooz (Jesus Christ Set Me Free of Drug Addiction in 1985. Thank You, Lord.)
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To: BikerNYC

No one's claiming Jefferson (or any other protestants at the time) liked Catholics. If I'm not mistaken, "priest" was meant literally here.


33 posted on 04/28/2005 12:17:16 PM PDT by Mach9 (.)
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To: GarySpFc
Not sure where you stand on this, but none of the quotes you provided are inconsistent with a Deist of the 18th century. They accepted the moral code of Christ as the highest yet achieved by Man; they also spoke of Providence and the Creator too.
34 posted on 04/28/2005 12:23:54 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Theft is taking something you don't own and you didn't pay for without permission.)
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To: LS

Thanks for posting!


35 posted on 04/28/2005 12:26:41 PM PDT by cvq3842
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To: NutCrackerBoy
I've been debating foolish secularists for years. People who barely even know what they are talking about when they say "the founders weren't theists - they were deists".

It seems I've been discussing (or reading discussions about) it for years, too (though I'm normally on the other side of the discussion). And one thing I've noticed: BOTH sides pick and choose text from Jefferson's letters to support their argument.

Only one fact is indisputable: Jefferson is no longer around to tell us what he was really thinking.

My guess is that, like every single other human being, he thought and wondered and may have even changed his mind about certain things once in awhile; thus, we have all these different writings from him that sometimes seem to contradict each other.

All I have to say is, if he and the other Forefathers wanted to create an exclusively Christian nation, they certainly erred by not being more specific in the Constitution, because it's not mentioned there.

36 posted on 04/28/2005 12:29:28 PM PDT by Tired of Taxes (News junkie here)
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To: Mach9
Here is an interesting discussion of how fear of Catholicism has played a role in the judicial history of our country, beginning with Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation Between Church and State
37 posted on 04/28/2005 12:31:29 PM PDT by sageb1
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Not sure where you stand on this, but none of the quotes you provided are inconsistent with a Deist of the 18th century. They accepted the moral code of Christ as the highest yet achieved by Man; they also spoke of Providence and the Creator too.

There is a real problem, because both Jefferson and Franklin believed God works in the affairs of man. CLEARLY, Franklin, Jefferson, and Wilson were not anything like the skeptics and Deists we see today.
38 posted on 04/28/2005 12:44:13 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: Tired of Taxes
All I have to say is, if he and the other Forefathers wanted to create an exclusively Christian nation, they certainly erred by not being more specific in the Constitution, because it's not mentioned there.

Every man either grows in grace and knowledge of the Lord or he regresses. They did not foresee the ACLU, People for the American Way, and other God-hating groups in the future. Let's remember that many of the states had a state church until 1925.
39 posted on 04/28/2005 12:48:45 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: GarySpFc

These are very selective quotations on your part. Jefferson believed Jesus was a great philosopher rather than the son of God and thus the Virgin Birth was a nonsense. Indeeed, hbelieved that all supernatural elements of New Testatment were later additions. If you think that still makes him a Christian, that is your right.


40 posted on 04/28/2005 12:49:08 PM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: Tired of Taxes
>>All I have to say is, if he and the other Forefathers wanted to create an exclusively Christian nation, they certainly erred by not being more specific in the Constitution, because it's not mentioned there.<<

Mentioning Christianity would have been redundant since the nation was already an exclusively Christian nation. The founders did not, however, want to create an exclusively Baptist nation, or an exclusively Methodist nation, etc..

For example, Oliver Ellsworth, a Connecticut delegate to the Constitutional Convention of 1787, in explaining to the people the clause that prohibits a religious test for public office, stated, "A test in favor of any one denomination of Christians would be to the last degree absurd in the United States. If it were in favor of Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Baptists, or Quakers, it would incapacitate more than three-fourths of the American citizens for any public office and thus degrade them from the rank of freemen."

On swearing to a belief in God at the time of appointment or admission to government office, Ellsworth resolved, "His (an officeholder) making a declaration of such a belief is no security at all. For suppose him to be an unprincipled man who believes neither the Word nor the being of God, and be governed merely by selfish motives; how easy is it for him to dissemble! How easy is it for him to make public declaration of his belief in the creed which the law prescribes and excuse himself by calling it a mere formality."

Ellsworth summarized by arguing that it must be left to the people to ensure the people elected and appointed to public office be of high moral character and not selfishly motivated, rather than via some legislated formality. We, the People, are ultimately responsible for moral leadership.

It is clear the Founding Fathers favored traditional Christian moralities; but they were also concerned with government legislated ideologies of a selective, immoral or oppressive nature. However, they were just as fearful of government legislating religious morality out of our lives.

For example, in his Farewell Address, George Washington warned we should forever be "indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." He added, "With slight shades of differences, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together."

On the instructions of George Washington I wear an indignant frown, and I wear it like crown.

41 posted on 04/28/2005 12:49:32 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau (Congress is defined as the United States Senate and House of Representatives; now read 1st Amendment)
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To: GarySpFc

Actually, Franklin and Jefferson's views on religion are better described as Masonic rather than Christian.....though I agree that they were quite different than many modern secular humanists.


42 posted on 04/28/2005 12:50:57 PM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: PhilipFreneau
I appreciate the work of Dr. Kennedy in defending the religious moorings of the Founders.

Jefferson's writing reveal a man whose true beliefs may have wavered, changed, and changed back again during his life. So have mine.

However, the only real thoughts that have an impact are those of our Lord Himself. His words, His acts, His love overwhelm even the philosophy of a giant like Jefferson.

43 posted on 04/28/2005 1:04:27 PM PDT by Dr. Thorne
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To: GarySpFc
"There is a real problem, because both Jefferson and Franklin believed God works in the affairs of man. CLEARLY, Franklin, Jefferson, and Wilson were not anything like the skeptics and Deists we see today."

Agreed, in that saying someone was a Deist in the 18th century is not the same as being a skeptic today (most people don't call themselves Deists anymore; they either use Agnostic or have become Atheists.)

Deists quite often spoke of Divine Providence and of God's plan. They thought that the universe was started by a wise, benevolent Creator who in creating the laws of nature, was able to know what was going to happen. The Creator didn't have to fix what he had already done. And they may have rejected the idea that any Scripture of any religion was Divinely Revealed, but they almost universally admired and thought highly of the moral teachings of Christ. I am not saying I agree, or that there aren't logical problems with this idea, but that is the thrust of what was believed by people who have been fit under the umbrella statement *Deist*. There was no one doctrine or absolute system.

And as for Jefferson, I will only say I have not really done enough research to make a good estimation where his beliefs placed him. I plan on doing it though, for him and many other of the Founders.
44 posted on 04/28/2005 1:08:07 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Theft is taking something you don't own and you didn't pay for without permission.)
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To: PhilipFreneau
True in everything except that I don't think the Jacksonians were as "states rights" oriented as everyone thinks.

1) Jackson had a plan for a national bank to replace the BUS. It was no different in any sense, except it would be controlled by Dems, not Whigs.

2) Jackson advanced a plan for the federal government to prohibit and eliminate all PRIVATE note issues. (That doesn't sound very small government/states rights to me)

3) Jackson overrode a states rights Supreme Court decision on the Cherokee and imposed a racist national removal policy, rather than let the fair Georgia policy stand.

4) The federal budget in real terms, and in per capita terms, grew throughout Jackson's terms. It did flatten under Van Buren---only because there was a bad depression (in a couple of depressions, the federal budget flattened).

5) Several new departments were added under Jackson.

6) He threatend to crush South Carolina over the tariff "nullification." There was a compromise, but again this hardly marks AJ as an advocate of states rights.

Jackson was for JACKSON. He was the Clinton of his era, and had nothing in common with a real small government Dem, Grover Cleveland, who took stand after stand on principle.

45 posted on 04/28/2005 1:28:18 PM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: PhilipFreneau

good post thanks


46 posted on 04/28/2005 1:32:22 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Mr. Blonde

>>I don't find that him going to church and so on is great evidence of him being a believer.<<

Of course. But there are more examples of Jefferson's faith in the WND column (click on the World Net Daily link), and in his letters. On at least three occasions Jefferson wrote explicitly that he was a Christian, the most notable of which I mentioned in the main body of this thread.


47 posted on 04/28/2005 1:35:43 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau (Congress is defined as the United States Senate and House of Representatives; now read 1st Amendment)
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To: LS

LS, thanks for the Jackson info.


48 posted on 04/28/2005 1:37:41 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau (Congress is defined as the United States Senate and House of Representatives; now read 1st Amendment)
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To: sageb1

Thank you. I'll read immediately.


49 posted on 04/28/2005 1:38:22 PM PDT by Mach9 (.)
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To: PhilipFreneau
Phil, let me say my view is not the norm, and there are a lot---especially the Libertarians at Pacific Institute---who disagree.

But since I'm a Christian, I have to go by the Bible which says that you can't get good fruit from a bad tree, or vice versa. I think there is actually a pretty straight line from the Dems of the 1800s to the Dems of today. They've always hated blacks---except now they enslave them with welfare. The GOP, with some zigs and zags around the tariff---has always liberated people and still is.

50 posted on 04/28/2005 1:40:28 PM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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