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New Teachers Get Pay Cut Under Recent Contract While Top Level Teachers See Big Salary Boost
Hawaii Reporter ^ | April 28, 2005 | Laura Brown

Posted on 04/28/2005 12:21:28 PM PDT by MikeHu

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To: mysterio

If you're a good worker -- your work experience would be very different. There's no business that wants to get rid of and mistreat a good worker.


21 posted on 04/28/2005 1:12:34 PM PDT by MikeHu
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To: general_re

Oh, so it's not just my imagination like the unions and union mainstream media would like me to believe. Some of you others see through these cons also.


22 posted on 04/28/2005 1:16:29 PM PDT by MikeHu
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To: MikeHu
If I'm really good at what I do, it takes me one hour to do a job a less skilled person may take all day to do -- if at all.

What does that have to do with your earlier argument that both new and experienced teachers should be paid the same? Here's what you said:

When I was in teaching, I felt the new teachers should be paid as much as the oldest teachers because the job was more difficult for a new teacher than someone who is supposedly experienced in the filed.

23 posted on 04/28/2005 1:19:43 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: MikeHu
My wife teaches - she's the expert, and can tell you allll about it ;)

Seriously, I don't think most people mind the idea of salary increases with experience, but dropping the entry level salary for one of the most expensive places to live in the country is just stupid. I'm sure they had plenty of trouble attracting good people at the old salary levels - now they've made it that much harder. Why would you want to go there when you can make more money and live cheaper elsewhere?

24 posted on 04/28/2005 1:21:56 PM PDT by general_re ("Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith, but in doubt." - Reinhold Niebuhr)
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To: MikeHu
That's only true for skilled labor. They can teach anyone to put boxes on a shelf all day. And those people get treated like absolute crap, and I have seen many fired just for the simple fact that there was someone who would work the job for less. They are working there ass off, and Friday afternoon rolls around, security escorts them out, and that's it. The next week, a temp is in there working for $7 instead of $8 an hour.

I take it you haven't worked too many of those type of jobs, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
25 posted on 04/28/2005 1:22:15 PM PDT by mysterio
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To: Balding_Eagle

I've earned seven hours of free time. There's no way management is going to get rid of the guy who can do the work of eight. That's a valued employee -- among everyone. That's partly why people work. Pride in their own workmanship -- that that's what they do best.


26 posted on 04/28/2005 1:24:14 PM PDT by MikeHu
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To: mysterio
A lot of people on this thread would argue that we should just trust government to pay teachers well, or just trust companies to do the same. Remember why unions happened in the first place?

It can be argued that government has no reason to be involved in education, but leaving that to address your union views... I have thought about what you believe quite carefully, and what I believe is that unions survive because many of their members sincerely believe they could not make it in the private sector. Given that some members have no choice and must join, and some are good and could make in the private sector, and some other extenuating circumstances, I stand by that.

What you, and many socialists - not you, do, is take the isolated incidents where a worker is fired unfairly and use that as a broad brush to demand union protections for all employees. This is a cure worse than the disease in that yes, life is not fair, but making it fair means handicapping the taller, faster, smarter, driven, hard-working folks. That is socialist. Yes, some workers are treated unfairly... But getting a union involved in this leads to Europe. Is that what you sincerely think is best for our country?

27 posted on 04/28/2005 1:28:15 PM PDT by SandwicheGuy
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To: mysterio

You're still making the case for a poor worker. A large part of a good business is to differentiate the good workers from the bad workers -- and not to regard them identically, with no discrimination, with no preference for the best and the worst -- as the union insists. That's why these unionized industries eventually have to fail. They cannot be competitive; they're prohibited from being competitive.

Unions are the antithesis of professionalism.


28 posted on 04/28/2005 1:31:03 PM PDT by MikeHu
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To: MikeHu
If I'm really good at what I do, it takes me one hour to do a job a less skilled person may take all day to do -- if at all.

If you do it in one hour and then don't do anything else all day, then perhpas you should get the same. If you do 8 times the work you should probably approach 8 times the pay.

29 posted on 04/28/2005 1:32:46 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: MikeHu
$28K is probably at least the median income for an individual even in Hawaii.

The only data I can find on a quick search is from the Bureau of the Census which gives a (2003) median income of $71,320 for a family of four. I really don't think $28K is going to hack it.

30 posted on 04/28/2005 1:33:04 PM PDT by Grut
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To: SandwicheGuy
No, think about it.

OK, I've thought about it. It still seems just plain silly, in fact, if that concept were put into law, can you imagine the devistation that would occur?

Probably not, so let me give an example:the 15 year policeman, who knows he isn't going to get a raise, no matter how hard he works. All that happens is that he puts in his shift, and no matter how hard, or fast, or skillfully he works, he's stuck there until the end of his shift. They simply pile more and more cases to his responsibility. He looks over at his buddy, who has only been there 3 months, earns as much as he does and always will. He handles 10 cases for each of his buddies 1. And that new recuit, the one just starting this AM, he's getting paid just as much too.

OK, how long do you think he'll stay? Actually, he's stupid for still being there for as long as he has been. After all, he could be drawing a senior pilots salary just by changing where he punches the time clock in the morning.

31 posted on 04/28/2005 1:39:56 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: Grut

28K for 9 months work, than work tourism during the summer. People will stay in it for the huge benefits and future salary increases.


32 posted on 04/28/2005 1:40:20 PM PDT by sharkhawk (I really have to stop surfing at DU.)
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To: lepton

Realistically, what they'll do is make you supervisor or move you into a management position -- or ask you, "What job do you want to have and how much do you want?"


33 posted on 04/28/2005 1:41:10 PM PDT by MikeHu
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To: MikeHu
I've earned seven hours of free time. There's no way management is going to get rid of the guy who can do the work of eight.

Which is it? Free time or working time for the company?

The way I see it, the company is going to look over and say to themselves that they haven't defined the job properly if you spend most of your day sitting around.

Your responses are too bizarre for the real world. I smell something in the air.

34 posted on 04/28/2005 1:44:14 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: MikeHu

These union negotiated contracts make no sense. An award winning, experienced teacher from out of state, (like my wife), would make only a little more than the 28K starting salary, since increases from experience outside is tiny compared to in district tenure. Experienced teachers within the state, transfering from a district only a few miles away, would also get only a pitance more than a newly minted 20 something.

Collective bargaining creates situations that are terribly unfair to experienced, high performing teachers. It degrades our entire public school system by not rewarding performance in anyway.


35 posted on 04/28/2005 1:46:32 PM PDT by Wiseghy ("Sometimes you're windshield, sometimes you' re the bug")
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To: Balding_Eagle

Exceptional work changes parameters of the whole job experience so that it won't fall into the union job classifications -- it creates a new paradigm of business and industry. That's why you're having trouble grasping real productivity and innovation. You're not simply doing the same thing day after day, or looking busy like a cog in a machine -- which is the union paradigm for the world of work. You're breaking new ground and rewriting all the rules for industry.

That's the kind of people who should be teaching.


36 posted on 04/28/2005 1:51:44 PM PDT by MikeHu
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To: Wiseghy

Schools (if nowhere else anymore) should be places where excellence is identified and recognized above all else -- and not just forcing people to be around uninspired, "lifers" as the kids call them, who have no interest but collecting another paycheck for doing nothing.

What are we teaching them?


37 posted on 04/28/2005 1:58:09 PM PDT by MikeHu
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To: Grut

One of the great ploys of the union tactics is to give everybody the impression that everybody else makes a whole lot more than they do -- and they alone are the only ones only getting $100,000 anymore for just showing up and eating lunch.

This is the kind of resentment and envy they need to breed at the union halls and propagate through the complicit mainstream media.


38 posted on 04/28/2005 2:04:19 PM PDT by MikeHu
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To: MikeHu

And yet everyone, newby and experienced alike, gets paid the same under your scenario. Seems to me that's been tried once on a very large scale.


39 posted on 04/28/2005 2:05:15 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: SandwicheGuy

Knee-jerk reactions are precisely what these Demorat/union operatives want. They don't want people thinking through any of this.

Their power is jerking everybody around. Fortunately, it's easy for us to see in Hawaii because the meainstream media here is so obvious and revealing that they give all the other mainstream media a bad name.


40 posted on 04/28/2005 2:09:14 PM PDT by MikeHu
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