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Israel And Freedom For Jonathan Pollard
Jerusalem Post / Israel News Agency ^ | April 28, 2005 | Caroline Glick / Joel Leyden

Posted on 04/28/2005 1:50:07 PM PDT by IsraelBeach

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To: nickcarraway

This is misinformation at its very best.

Pollard had money.
He had a good salary and if he needed any further assistance, his family was there for him.

What his Israeli handlers did do, from what I have read in the media, was to reinforce his Zionism and covert activities with a "thank you" paid vacation to Europe.
There was no salary.
Nothing less than what your local travel agent gets. It's called a "junket".

When you say that Pollard did it for the money, please tell us all how much money did Pollard receive? ;>

You can't substantiate these charges.
But perhaps you are baiting others to offer more to this thread.

Yes, loose lips sink ships ... and Pollard has paid his price.

So has Israel.
And we are still here :>


51 posted on 04/29/2005 12:13:32 AM PDT by IsraelBeach
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To: IsraelBeach

I am glad Israel is still there... and hope it continues to be.


52 posted on 04/29/2005 12:20:18 AM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: sarasmom
He violated his voluntarily sworn oath,betrayed his country, caused huge amounts of damage with his treacherous actions, and if actually tried by a jury of his professional peers (of which I qualified for membership)he would have been executed.

Your post intrigues me. I have to wonder how one whose opinion is formed by inside information can be so condemning and vituperative towards those questioning that opinion without the benefit of said inside information? What's the old saying about pounding facts when they favor you, and pounding the table when they don't?

Furthermore, to me it seems rather doctrinaire to tell defendants at nuremburg "those orders were illegitimate, and you should have known better," and then expect Pollard to sit on his hands while his branch goes "rogue."

One can prattle on about how "he did it for the money," but that is an unprovable assertion: therefore not relevant.

I can distinguish no functional difference between the quality of arguments used against Pollard, and that which *would be* used by supremely arrogant bureaucrats, with a pronounced streak of jew-hatred, punishing an underling who had the audacity to circumvent their pronouncements from on high.

I for one, do not know what to think about the Pollard case, but I do know I have been negatively impacted by the questionable reasoning of those who would like nothing better than to stand Pollard up against a wall.

53 posted on 04/29/2005 1:14:25 AM PDT by Woahhs (America is an idea, not an address.)
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To: sarasmom
He is an American hero.

Hey, "professional", Iraq/Alqueda attacked us -- despite your pension. If not for Pollard when they did they would have used nukes. Pollard pulled YOUR fat out of the fire. And all you can do is spit on him.

Enjoy your pension, "professional"!

54 posted on 04/29/2005 3:41:35 AM PDT by bvw
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To: M Kehoe

Is it now?


55 posted on 04/29/2005 3:46:38 AM PDT by bvw
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To: sarasmom
After we actually attack France, we might consider attacking some of our other putative allies, if we are in a righteous attacking kind of mood. Israel is not in the most deserving top five contendors list, IMHO. It certainly makes more sence to hit France first and hard, if we really wanted to punish occasionally faithless allies.

Huh?
56 posted on 04/29/2005 8:40:21 AM PDT by Borges
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To: andrew r

You missed your Information Super Highway Exit. You should have gotten off at the Israel hating Democratic Underground.


57 posted on 04/29/2005 9:23:58 AM PDT by Bella_Bru (www.JewsforJudaism.org)
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To: bvw

I don't have a pension.
I am a citizen of the USA, and a military veteran of the USA.
What I do have, and you lack, is experience and knowledge on a subject you "feel free" to fabricate facts and express ignorant and ludicrous opinions about.
What nationality are you?

But have a nice day!


58 posted on 04/29/2005 4:29:38 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: Woahhs

Its not hard to understand.

Unless one has such a naive,fanatic or ignorant worldview that one thinks handing over your own governments classified intellgence information,that you swore to protect, including sources and methods, to a foreign country is a good thing for non-elected and incredibly arrogant and traitorous intelligence workers to do.

It seems you think it was just fine and dandy!
Tell me, is it still fine and dandy when done for Islamic "higher moral " reasons?
What if done for stictly "Christian" reasons?
Or is it your contention that only those who support Israel, even against their sworn oath to their own country, should be forgiven their treason?
Why?
Dare I even say it-
Jews can be virulently anti-USA, and not be called anti-Christian, even when they are.
But none must ever question anything related to Israel,or Judaism, lest they be called anti-semetic.

Islam is closer in practice to Judaism than it is to Christianity.

Pollard will die in prison not because he is Jewish, but because he became a paid spy for Israel, against the USA.




















59 posted on 04/29/2005 5:16:32 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: Bella_Bru

Actually, I suggested the opposite.
But it is not surprising, coming from you, that you would imply I did.


60 posted on 04/29/2005 5:19:56 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: bvw

Pollard gave his word of honor that he would not betray classified information to persons not allowed to receive it. He broke that word.

Also, Israel was the SECOND country he approached about becoming a spy. He sold out his loyalty to the high bidder.

Finally, he refuses (to this day) to assist in a damage assessment.


61 posted on 04/29/2005 5:24:36 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse
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To: sarasmom

American. Same kind of folks who owned the Mayflower, maybe related. Pre-1666, dear.


62 posted on 04/29/2005 5:28:35 PM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw

"If not for Pollard when they did they would have used nukes."

What DID Pollard do, exactly?


63 posted on 04/29/2005 5:33:46 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
Seven years of solitary. What kind of damage assessment do you think he can still give?

Still what you ask for from him says something. That's you know he's honest.

Ask the Walkers or Hanson for an assessment? Every word a lie. Even the true ones.

64 posted on 04/29/2005 5:37:04 PM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw

"Seven years of solitary. What kind of damage assessment do you think he can still give?"

The one he refused to give back in 1985, which was a condition of his proposed plea bargain.

"Still what you ask for from him says something. That's you know he's honest."

No, it means that I know he promised to give a damage assessment, and then reneged on doing so. That is not a working definition of "honest."


65 posted on 04/29/2005 5:40:50 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse
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To: bvw

Oh I am so impressed...not.
America consists of two rather large, semi-contiguous continents.
The USA is a separate,disinct and sovereign nation in North America.

BTW, my ancestors greeted the Mayflower, along with all the other many ships that arrived centuries before on their shores.
LOL! Loser.


66 posted on 04/29/2005 5:41:44 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
Pollard served more than his time. That's what he did. As the article says "Never has a spy in the employ of a friendly country received such a sentence. On average, spies working for countries considered US allies receive between 4-7 years in jail."

Israel knocked out Iraqs nukes. We didn't have to. Pollard should have been released the day Gulf War One ended. Or the Day we occupied Bagdad.

67 posted on 04/29/2005 5:43:22 PM PDT by bvw
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

Can't say that. There's reasons why an honest man in his shoes might have had to reconsider. You or I we are not in his shoes.


68 posted on 04/29/2005 5:46:19 PM PDT by bvw
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To: SausageDog
He needs to be put in with the general population.

Apparently, his cellmate is the son of David Keene, the head of the American Conservative Union (ACU).

69 posted on 04/29/2005 5:46:37 PM PDT by Koblenz (Holland: a very tolerant country. Until someone shoots you on a public street in broad daylight...)
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To: bvw

"Pollard served more than his time. That's what he did. As the article says "Never has a spy in the employ of a friendly country received such a sentence. On average,
spies working for countries considered US allies receive between 4-7 years in jail.""

That's because, among other things, they complied with the terms of their plea bargains. Pollard did not. He REFUSED to give any information on what he gave to Israel, or who specifically received it.

By the way, did you know that Pollard's case officer was arrested by the Israelis for selling stuff to the Russians?

"Israel knocked out Iraqs nukes. We didn't have to."

Israel bombed the Osirak reactor about three years before they got anything from Pollard. So Pollard does not get any credit for this deed.

So how did Pollard save us from getting nuked on 9/11?

"Pollard should have been released the day Gulf War One ended. Or the Day we occupied Bagdad."

Why? He made promises and broke them repeatedly. Dishonorable scumbags belong in jail, not walking around free.


70 posted on 04/29/2005 5:48:30 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse
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To: bvw

"Can't say that. There's reasons why an honest man in his shoes might have had to reconsider. You or I we are not in his shoes."

It's a contract. The price tag for breach of contract is that one is no longer entitled to the consideration on the other side of the contract.


71 posted on 04/29/2005 5:49:25 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
Israel knocked out the nukes, Israel wants Pollard. There's a debt of honor, eh?

I admit to not checking google as to when the Osirak reactor was bombed and when Pollard did his spying. If that's not right it is a misconception I've had, but there is some reason for that kind of thing or something similar.

Oh! I remember now. It was BECAUSE some parts of the US intelligence community decided to punish Israel for it's hubris in bombing Osirak! It exposed methodologies or somesuch.

So Pollard decided to make up for that dishonorable action. Dishonorable because Israel did us then a great favor, and got punched down by these super-secret super-intelligentalists because of it. And of course that mighty brain thrust missed 9/11, and all the other attacks -- WTC I, Cole, Khobar, etc. etc. So focused on the mighty mighty Russkies!

But the Russkies were all a-tatters, falling apart internally, fighting over mines, banks and assets.

Pollard's acts -- who knows -- maybe they were the most effective of all in those times in assuring our US security. I'll put that forth as a tenable proposition.

72 posted on 04/29/2005 6:07:40 PM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw

"Israel knocked out the nukes, Israel wants Pollard. There's a debt of honor, eh?"

Israel sells advanced weapons technology developed here to countries such as China. Please do not speak of a "debt of honor."

If I steal technology and information from your company, but then proceed to whack the local firebug around so that he doesn't (hypothetically) burn your business down, and I resell that stolen information to one of your competitors...I should get a pass for the hypothetical good deed I did for you.

Have I accurately stated your position?


73 posted on 04/29/2005 6:18:14 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse
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To: sarasmom
Spare me the breathless hyperbole. It simply defies reason for an analyst who's crimes may have inadvertently given vital information to the Russians, to draw greater condemnation and harsher treatment, than an administrator that gave it to them directly, and lead to the actual deaths of field agents. That is, unless there is another factor involved.

Without that missing piece, it just looks like someone wants to put a dog to sleep, because it tried to bite them when they kicked it.

One need not be religious in the least to recognize the inherent immorality of a bureaucrat unilaterally taking it upon himself to "punish" the Israelis for bombing Osirak. The agreement to share intelligence with the Israelis was made way above Inman's pay grade, yet he chose to jeopardize a vital ally in a fit of pique over the way they handle their foreign affairs.

You can spout platitudes till you're blue, but nothing you've said so far provides sufficient reason for your over-the-top animosity toward this guy. There may indeed be mitigating circumstances I am unaware of, but if there are not, I can only be thankful you've retired if you are a typical example of our analytical talent.

74 posted on 04/29/2005 8:22:47 PM PDT by Woahhs (America is an idea, not an address.)
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To: Woahhs
"The agreement to share intelligence with the Israelis was made way above Inman's pay grade, yet he chose to jeopardize a vital ally in a fit of pique over the way they handle their foreign affairs."

Well stated!

Can any Pollard / Israel basher here please tell us "how much" money Pollard received from the "highest bidder?"

Again, this is not about Jonathan Pollard, not after serving 20 years. This is about keeping Israel in prison, for Pollard represents the image of Israeli security in the US. Something for which the US is and should be jealous of.

We must all remember that the Pollard Affair took place 20 years ago, before 9/11. Pollard represents division between the US and Israel - something we do not in these days of Islamic terrorism.

In the name of justice and humanity, release this symbol of Jerusalem and let's focus on our real enemies - Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

If Pollard is not released in the immediate future, I would suggest to the Israeli government to start "detaining" CIA / NSA and Mil Intel operatives who are now spying on Israel's military and hi-tech infrastructure. Subsequent threats of depriving Israel of military and economic aid would be impotent as US defense contractors would have to cancel some golf outings ;>

75 posted on 04/29/2005 8:52:15 PM PDT by IsraelBeach
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To: sarasmom
Only the ignorant,fools and anti-USA individuals agitate for his release.IMNSHO.

I am neither ignorant, nor foolish, and I'm firmly committed to the belief that Pollard should be turned over to Israel. As an aside, it's always the people who should have the humblest of opinions who never do.

76 posted on 05/02/2005 4:13:09 PM PDT by Melas
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To: bvw

You win the cigar. A man who actually reads the constitution, a rarity in this thread.


77 posted on 05/02/2005 4:15:55 PM PDT by Melas
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To: Melas

Why?
Pollard is not an Israeli citizen.
He just got paid to spy for Israel against his country and his own voluntarily sworn oathes.
Why should I pretend to fasely have a "humble opinion" of his deserved fate?


78 posted on 05/02/2005 5:18:18 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: Woahhs

Spare ME your willfull ignorance.

The facts you claim you "are unaware of" is not a concern of mine.
Nor do I care what you label my stated opinions.
"Breathless hyperbole" seems to be your forte, not mine.
Pollard will rightfully die in prison, serving out his extraordinarily lenient sentence to its full completion.
He should have been executed years ago.


79 posted on 05/02/2005 7:26:13 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: sarasmom
Why?

Because it's time. There comes a point, where punisment is no longer just. There comes a point, where punishment just becomes cruelty. We've passed that point. That's the simplest explanation I can give, and I know in advance that you not only disagree, but will take great umbrage that I even hold an opinion so markedly different from your own.

80 posted on 05/02/2005 7:42:31 PM PDT by Melas
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To: sarasmom

You are unhinged. You've passed the point of rational argument, and taken to gainsaying and petulant contradiction.

Why bother?


81 posted on 05/02/2005 9:56:37 PM PDT by Woahhs (America is an idea, not an address.)
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To: Melas
I don't "take great umbrage" about your opinion.
I do judge your opinion as wrong and ignorant.
As does the USA UCMJ.
So whatever number of unnamed "we" sources you claim as the basis for claiming Pollard has "suffered enough" for his crimes, even though he has not yet finished his already lenient sentence of life in prison, is less than worthless.
Unfortunately, barring another trial on separate additional charges, he can not be sentenced to death.
Pity.
82 posted on 05/03/2005 7:34:57 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: Regicide
Like I said, I've always been a supporter of Israel, but after your posts today, I'm probably just a little less supportive.

Vote for Hillary.

83 posted on 05/03/2005 7:42:53 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: Mi-kha-el
And Sandy Berger will pay $10,000 for stealing and destroying top secret docs.

He did not commit his crimes for the sake of Israel.

84 posted on 05/03/2005 7:46:27 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: bvw
He is an American hero.

No, but if he is an Israeli hero then surely Israel will seek his release.

85 posted on 05/03/2005 7:48:02 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: sarasmom
Unfortunately, barring another trial on separate additional charges, he can not be sentenced to death.

He was not charged, much less convicted, of treason or a comparable crime that brings the death penalty.

86 posted on 05/03/2005 7:49:44 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: sarasmom
Pollard is not an Israeli citizen.

He is an Israeli citizen.

87 posted on 05/03/2005 7:50:57 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: IsraelBeach
If Pollard is not released in the immediate future, I would suggest to the Israeli government to start "detaining" CIA / NSA and Mil Intel operatives who are now spying on Israel's military and hi-tech infrastructure.

Israel considers Pollard to be expendable and that it is better for the State if one man die.

88 posted on 05/03/2005 7:52:27 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: af_vet_1981
No to the no. There are American heros and American villains in this story. Pollard lines up with the heros.

Like Daniel Boone, Pollard was a pioneer. Many arrows in his back.

89 posted on 05/04/2005 4:31:09 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Mi-kha-el
"And Sandy Berger will pay $10,000 for stealing and destroying top secret docs."

Isn't Sandy Berger also of the Jewish persuasion? Hmmmmmm!

90 posted on 05/04/2005 4:41:44 AM PDT by albee (A paranoid schizophrenic is somebody who just found out what is going on.)
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Comment #91 Removed by Moderator

To: af_vet_1981

Pardon my "tense" error.
When Pollard committed his crimes, he was not an Israeli citizen.
In order for Pollard to have attained access to the highly classified information he sold to Israel, he would have to have sworn to renounce any dual-citizenship status to any other nation he may have been entitled to claim.
Security requirements for DOD members were and remain, much more stringent than those for elected government officials.


92 posted on 05/04/2005 5:35:45 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: sarasmom
Pardon my "tense" error. When Pollard committed his crimes, he was not an Israeli citizen. In order for Pollard to have attained access to the highly classified information he sold to Israel, he would have to have sworn to renounce any dual-citizenship status to any other nation he may have been entitled to claim. Security requirements for DOD members were and remain, much more stringent than those for elected government officials.

All true

93 posted on 05/04/2005 6:45:35 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: bvw
No to the no. There are American heros and American villains in this story. Pollard lines up with the heros. Like Daniel Boone, Pollard was a pioneer. Many arrows in his back.

No

He was not a hero of Rome the United States.

He was serving Israeli interests while breaking American laws.

94 posted on 05/04/2005 6:48:27 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: albee
Isn't Sandy Berger also of the Jewish persuasion? Hmmmmmm!

Being Jewish has (or should have) nothing to do with it. The focal point is who was he serving while breaking the law. Sandy Berger was ostensibly serving Bill Clinton and the Democrat wing of the United States Congress while Jonathan Pollard was working for Israel.

95 posted on 05/04/2005 6:50:07 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: IsraelBeach

Good lord, what horsepuckey. I don't care how PURE his motives were for being a spy in our intelligence agency. He did it. I wouldn't care if another inmate smashed his head against a toilet.


96 posted on 05/04/2005 7:04:34 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: bvw

Look, I know we need to keep this discussion civil, but your charge that Pollard is in jail because he is Jewish is just, plain, BS. Period.

He is in jail because he is an unrepentant spy who is keeping hs mouth shut.

If you want to be taken seriously here, please leave the charges of anti-semitism at the door.


97 posted on 05/04/2005 7:15:35 PM PDT by rlmorel
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To: af_vet_1981
Well, time will resolve this argument one way or the other.

Rome's greatest leaders (in its empire stage) were often drawn from amoung those it had been at war with.

In the war we are now in Israel is on our side with no doubt at all -- Pollard's instincts were ahead of his time.

98 posted on 05/04/2005 7:17:53 PM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw
In the war we are now in Israel is on our side with no doubt at all -- Pollard's instincts were ahead of his time.

No

Pollard, like Benedict Arnold, went outside his chain of command to do it his way.

99 posted on 05/04/2005 7:19:09 PM PDT by af_vet_1981
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To: rlmorel

All the punctuation in the world and then some would not support your postulate, unfortunately.


100 posted on 05/04/2005 7:19:17 PM PDT by bvw
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