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Quynh Dao: Vietnam protesters fall silent - (Hooah! Chalk up one commentary for the good guys!)
THE AUSTRALIAN.COM ^ | APRIL 29, 2005 | Quynh Dao

Posted on 04/28/2005 8:16:41 PM PDT by CHARLITE

MANY myths and half-truths about the Vietnam War whipped up by the communist propaganda machine have been allowed to persist unchecked in discourse about Iraq. Today, on the eve of the 30th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, perhaps some lessons can be learned from this painful chapter in history.

A point of view held by the anti-Vietnam War movement in the 1960s and still taken as fact by some people today is that the Vietnam War was a civil war, not one fomented or directed by the communist north, which, in turn, was being instructed by China.

With that belief, the anti-Vietnam War movement denounced US involvement in Vietnam as an act of interference. The Vietnamese Communist Party's official biography on leader Ho Chi Minh and the Chinese Communist Party confirms that the communists in the north received instruction from China and were supported by the rest of the communist bloc with aid to foment the war and to spread Marxist-Leninist ideology.

The Vietnam War should thus be seen, rightly, as a fight to preserve freedom and democracy by the people of South Vietnam against communist invasion.

The anti-war movement supported the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam (the Vietcong) portrayed by communist sympathisers in the West as independent from Hanoi. Party documents now reveal it was a product of the north.

As such, members of the anti-Vietnam War movement let themselves be deceived by the communists. Some influential people in the West, wittingly or not, abetted the communists in their deception.

Novelist Graham Greene wrote The Quiet American in 1955 in which he denounced the US and South Vietnam as engaged in acts of terrorism against the Vietnamese people. He could not provide any verifiable detail about one such alleged incident which he asserted was true.

At the time Greene wrote, thousands of people in the north were slaughtered in the so-called land-reform campaign initiated by Ho Chi Minh under the directives of Chinese advisers. Greene was happy to ignore that campaign.

Noam Chomsky, the leading anti-war intellectual, vowed "to speak the truth and to expose lies" as a reason for his pro-Vietnamese communist stand. As he made this passionate avowal, North Vietnamese poet Nguyen Chi Thien was imprisoned for doing just that, writing the truth about the communists. Nguyen was imprisoned for 27 years.

The Western media turned what was a military success on the part of the non-communist forces in the south to a political victory for the communists. The Tet Offensive of 1968 was an unmitigated disaster for Hanoi. Yet it was pictures of US carnage that were publicised to a war-weary audience.

The media also relayed ad nauseam the picture of a South Vietnamese soldier shooting a Vietcong, in civilian clothing. The message was loud and clear -- this is the kind of atrocity that the South Vietnamese army did to their own people, with the backing of the US. The Western media did not report the massacre of 4000 unarmed civil servants and civilians in the city of Hue, committed by the communists.

Nguyen Ngoc Loan, the South Vietnamese officer in the picture, passed away in 1998. Neil Davis, the Australian war correspondent killed on assignment in Thailand, set out the background to the killing when interviewed for David Bradbury's 1980 documentary Frontline. The Vietcong shot by Loan had, not long before this picture was taken, led a team of communist terrorists who killed the family of a South Vietnamese officer, including his 80-year-old mother, his wife and his children. How often is his background explained?

Following their victory in 1975, the communists, hailed as liberators by their sympathisers, put more than 1million people in concentration camps, appropriated property, nationalised all means of production, evicted people from their homes and stripped people of their savings. Before the end of the war, South Vietnam was at par with other developing countries in the region. Now, after 30 years of "liberation", Vietnam ranks with the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world.

After 30 years of peace, intellectuals, artists, Buddhist monks, Catholic priests, tribal people, even communist war heroes, are subject to arrest, torture, harassment and imprisonment for peacefully demanding freedom and democracy.

What is occurring in Vietnam sparks protests from human rights organisations around the world. Amid all of these voices of protest, the deadening silence from the anti-war camp is telling. Those who supported the communists still refuse to see the stark evidence.

It was the pressure from the anti-war elite that forced the US administration to pull troops out of Vietnam. The hasty US retreat made South Vietnam prey to a ruthless enemy still fat with Soviet largesse and left behind it a trail of indescribable human suffering culminating in the boat people tragedy.

Are we going to let this happen to Iraq? Troop withdrawal should be a process that happens gradually to allow the precious new democracy in Iraq time to build up its national security and strengthen its governing institutions in the face of fundamentalist savagery.

Building a democracy is a long process. While 80 million Vietnamese people are now doomed in slavery, the chances for the Iraqi people to live in a society that respects freedom and is based on the rule of law is within reach.

Quynh Dao is a member of the Australian-Vietnam Human Rights Committee and a former refugee.


TOPICS: Australia/New Zealand; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: protestors; reality; retrospective; tet; truth; vietnam

1 posted on 04/28/2005 8:16:43 PM PDT by CHARLITE
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To: CHARLITE

The same unwashed of the 60's are at it again.


2 posted on 04/28/2005 8:21:40 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: CHARLITE
What can one say? Every word of this article speaks the truth. That Ho Chi Minh was co-founder of the French Communist Party and the primary founder of the SE Asian Communist Party speaks volumes about the influence of the communists on North Vietnam. The exodus of millions of Catholics from the North post-1954 was expressly due to the hatred of Catholicism by the Communists. How could American leftists be so blind to the obvious truth? Just as they are today about Wahabbi Islam.
3 posted on 04/28/2005 8:41:24 PM PDT by angkor
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To: CHARLITE
I didn't read The Quiet American as supposing to be a true account of anything -- and it was published years before the anti-war movement got its legs IIRC. It was, I'm sure, an indictment of a certain mentality of naivety, specifically from the CIA operative in the novel. I don't know what Greene said about it afterward.

Still, a good article and one worthing bumping! We have an active South Vietnamese veteran group in my city and you can see the sadness in their eyes...

4 posted on 04/28/2005 8:48:11 PM PDT by JohnnyZ (“When you’re hungry, you eat; when you’re a frog, you leap; if you’re scared, get a dog.”)
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To: University Student; Publius6961; Former Military Chick; Congressman Billybob; ThreePuttinDude; ...

FYI Ping!


5 posted on 04/28/2005 8:49:46 PM PDT by CHARLITE ("People are not old, until regrets take the place of their dreams." - John Barrymore)
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To: U S Army EOD

My only critique for the South Vietmanese is why didn't their Army fight as hard and fanatically as the North Vietmanese soldier. If they had fought hard and not constantly relying on the Americans to do all the heavy lifting, they would not be slaves today. Corruption also killed the South Vietmanese Army. They operated very similiar to many non modernized Asian military of its era. Generals and senior colonels were preselected from elite families (patronage system), and payroll was allocated to division commanders based on the number of soldiers in the unit. Commanders skimmed the money and what was left over went to the soldiers. There was less incentive to commit troops to battle, because casualties would reduce the number of men (thus payroll amount and amount that can be skimmed). Many South Vietmanese commanders hesitated to go into combat unless it was absolutely necessary. The good news is the US military learned from Vietnam and we emphasized on building cohesive battalion size units first and not massive divisions when we assist foreign allies in later Low Intensive wars.


6 posted on 04/28/2005 8:53:13 PM PDT by Fee (Great powers never let minor allies dictate who, where and when they must fight.)
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To: All
IMO one of the greatest things so far this century was John Kerry's decision to "report for duty."

The 2004 campaign ripped the lies away and exposed the truth that so many Americans, VN vets or not, knew back then was the truth. The 2004 campaign debate was far more than old people looking to correct misconceptions.

There was at least one reply posted here on FR wishing that the old people would die already so we could stop talking about Viet Nam.

Stop talking about VN? Sure and sit quietly while today's Walter Cronkites lie to the American people about the war to defend against radical Islam? I don't think so.

7 posted on 04/28/2005 9:04:29 PM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (MSM Fraudcasters are skid marks on journalism's clean shorts.)
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To: CHARLITE
Noam Chomsky, the leading anti-war intellectual, vowed "to speak the truth and to expose lies" as a reason for his pro-Vietnamese communist stand. As he made this passionate avowal, North Vietnamese poet Nguyen Chi Thien was imprisoned for doing just that, writing the truth about the communists. Nguyen was imprisoned for 27 years...there's more truth in these few lines by Thien than in every labored tome Chomsky ever produced:

If Uncle and the Party, let's suppose,
Allowed free movement in and out,
Grandfather Marx's paradise
Would soon become the wilds where monkeys roam.

8 posted on 04/28/2005 9:05:02 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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To: Intolerant in NJ
If Uncle and the Party, let's suppose,
Allowed free movement in and out,
Grandfather Marx's paradise
Would soon become the wilds where monkeys roam.


Good stuff. Being from NJ, you're not related by any chance to William Carlos Williams?
9 posted on 04/28/2005 9:47:24 PM PDT by kenavi ("Remember, your fathers sacrificed themselves without need of a messianic complex." Ariel Sharon)
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To: Fee
A lot of the Vietnamese units did fight quite well. In my opinion, the major mistake we made was the US fighting a separate war from the South Vietnamese. During the Korean War, we made an emphasis to integrate individual ROK soldiers into American units with the KATUSA program. While not perfect, it did help for a better cohesion between the ROKs and American units.

Most of my friends who were advisers felt like the local RFPF units fought very well. I am sure that the South Vietnamese were put off by what was going on at the college campus in the US also.

We never tried to tell the public, our side of the war like we did in WWII. Basically the North Vietnamese didn't win the war, we lost it.
10 posted on 04/28/2005 9:59:53 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Agreed and good to hear from you, EOD.

The ARVNs did ok but a lot of the problem was with their dispersal. As well as ours. Too many were based in the provincial capitals, usually for the financial benefit of the provincial governor.

11 posted on 04/28/2005 10:16:59 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
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To: WilliamofCarmichael
I was going to let this thread go by and not say anything. But after reading the comment about the FR poster wishing old people would die so that he/she didn't have to hear about Vietnam anymore really pisses me off.

I have heard this same attitude from a lot of people of the years. Surprisingly many in the military have the same attitude. mention Vietnam and right away their eyes glaze over or as some have said I don't give a F**k about Vietnam.

Thats just too friggin bad because Vietnam vets are not going to stop talking about it. It will stay up there in the American consciousness for a long time to come.

I have heard 4 to 5 million men served during the Vietnam war. At the height of the war as many as 500,000 were serving in Vietnam per year. Approximately 1 in 8 were in the combat arms. No one has ever done a study to see how many of those people were on their second or third tours.
Why would someone go back to a war zone more than once? Maybe it was because they believed in what they were fighting for. Maybe they saw what the Communism for the evil it was and is. Maybe it was because they loved their country and believed what it stood for.

This person who wished us all to die so they didn't have to listen about Vietnam again wouldn't make a good size pimple on a Vietnam vet's ass.
I wish I could have expressed my feelings better but now I am just to pissed to try.
12 posted on 04/29/2005 2:57:52 AM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
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To: ALOHA RONNIE

ping, and thanks for your reply re. Vietnam War Memorial. Who are the first and last names for Ia Drang? Thanks.


13 posted on 04/29/2005 3:04:36 AM PDT by rudy45
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To: Americanexpat

Most Vietnam Vets I know would be willing to go back and do it again. I get a little worked up when I read your post and know what you are trying to say. I want to say the same thing you are thinking but just don't know how. We WERE the good guys in Vietnam, sooner or later that will come out more and more. What pisses me off is people like Bill Clinton and John Kerry, who actively supported the other side, seemed to have come out okay.

You really had some tours you can tell your grand children about. The EOD stuff was just different. It didn't matter if we were in Vietnam, Korea, or CONUS our job was basically the same.

People need to hear about Vietnam, they need to hear about the mistakes so they will never happen again. The world wouldn't be in the mess it is in now if we had been allowed to win. Communism would have still fallen, but a little sooner.


14 posted on 04/29/2005 5:08:18 AM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: CHARLITE
Yes the anit-war left was largely responsible for creating the climate, but it was the 'rats in Congress who knifed our allies in the back by cutting off all military aid.

Ted Kennedy, if there is justice, you will burn in hell for eternity. You left not one, but millions of doomed Mary Jo's in the RVN.

15 posted on 04/29/2005 7:49:07 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: angkor
How could American leftists be so blind to the obvious truth?

They weren't blind. They knew exactly what they were doing --- crushing freedom wherever possible.

16 posted on 04/29/2005 7:54:00 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: U S Army EOD
We never tried to tell the public, our side of the war like we did in WWII.

Unlike in Vietnam, the media was on our side during WWII.

17 posted on 04/29/2005 8:01:07 AM PDT by Bob
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To: Bob

This is true, plus we didn't try to save money and manage the war like a business like McNamara did.


18 posted on 04/29/2005 8:07:13 AM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: angkor
Good morning.
"How could American leftists be so blind to the obvious truth?"

They weren't blind then and they aren't today. People like Medea Benjamin, john kerry, Jane Fonda and that Code Pink person that was blown up in Iraq recently have no illusions about the harm they do.

Michael Frazier
19 posted on 04/29/2005 8:49:29 AM PDT by brazzaville (No surrender,no retreat. Well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: U S Army EOD
Good morning.

The decision to allow the communists to operate freely in the nations bordering South Vietnam doomed the war effort.

I was an adviser to RuffPuffs during my last tour. Like all soldiers those who were well led fought well, those who weren't didn't.

Spineless politicians and communist fellow travelers in our government lost the war and abandoned the people of South Vietnam.

They are trying to do it again to the people of Iraq.

Michael Frazier
20 posted on 04/29/2005 9:08:54 AM PDT by brazzaville (No surrender,no retreat. Well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: brazzaville

My room mate at APG was a RUFF PUFF advisor for six years around Bambi Touit (spelled like it sounds) His name was Ron Osimo. He thought the world of the Vietnamese.

I had a 12 year old kid save most of my unit one day on my demo range by picking up a burning WP round and throwing it in a water filled crater. He got to it first and picked it up instead of running like most of us were going to do. It was right in the middle of 1,500 lbs of explosives and propellent when it started burning.

Our decission to let the communist freely demonstrate and operate in this country probably cost us even more.


21 posted on 04/29/2005 9:26:19 AM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: BIGLOOK; U S Army EOD

The most important thing is we learned from Vietnam War is more than just battles and firepower, it involves coordinating politics and being adept to the local culture and politics of the people in country. Look at our approach in Iraq and you will see not only the network centric technologies but also the political/cultural sophistication in our military.


22 posted on 04/29/2005 3:04:06 PM PDT by Fee (Great powers never let minor allies dictate who, where and when they must fight.)
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To: kenavi
Good stuff. Being from NJ, you're not related by any chance to William Carlos Williams?...nope, not a chance......
23 posted on 04/29/2005 8:33:26 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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To: brazzaville; U S Army EOD; Fee; Americanexpat
Spineless politicians and communist fellow travelers in our government lost the war and abandoned the people of South Vietnam.

I was too young for VN, but have traveled there quite a bit and know a large number of former ARVN officers and enlisted as well as former civilian employees (all through wifey who is Vietnamese).

One of the most poignant comments I've ever heard came from a former civilian employee who's still (trapped) in VN - he was highly trained in the US and speaks flawless English, though now he's pretty much blacklisted because of his previous line of work.

Anyway we were talking about 1975 and he was saying "Terrible, terrible, we didn't know how bad it was going to be", and etc, until he finally looked me in the eye and said "Why did America abandon us? I can't understand that. We were winning, and America abandoned us."

What was I gonna' do, explain John Kerry and Jane Fonda to him?

24 posted on 04/29/2005 10:46:36 PM PDT by angkor
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To: angkor

Not only did we not give them every thing we promised them when we pulled out, we didn't even make up their ammunition expenditure for the 1972 Easter Offensive. It was a Democratic congress that cut the funding with Ted Kennedy in the lead.


25 posted on 04/29/2005 11:05:17 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: U S Army EOD

May Kerry and Kennedy et al rot in hell for the evil they inflicted upon the South Vietnamese people, not to mention 2.5 million Cambodians.


26 posted on 04/29/2005 11:19:46 PM PDT by angkor
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To: CHARLITE

Awesome article.


27 posted on 04/29/2005 11:24:07 PM PDT by July 4th (A vacant lot cancelled out my vote for Bush.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Good morning.

Two ARVN divisions and some Regional Forces units fought to the last round at Xuan Loc. After they ran out of ammunition, thanks to the US Congress, the survivors were either shot or sent to reeducation camps.

Ted Kennedy,his protege, john kerry, Jane Fonda and the DemocRat Party did that.

I get twitchy on April 30 every year. Damn DemocRATS.

Michael Frazier
28 posted on 04/30/2005 9:04:40 AM PDT by brazzaville (No surrender,no retreat. Well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: brazzaville

Good afternoon out there.

I am the infamous 'Teacup', Assistant Team
Leader of Team 1/7 in Vietnan, fortunately
for me, under 'Brazzaaville'.

It is my opinion that following the Tet
Offensive of 1968 the Viet Cong, as an
organization, virtually ceased to exist.

I agree with Brazzaville, following that,
the enemy we encountered were primarily
very young troops send south from the north.



29 posted on 04/30/2005 12:16:00 PM PDT by Teacup17
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To: brazzaville

I talked to one Vietnamese company commander who was trying to hold that big bridge north of Saigon. He said he had 17 rounds of 5.56 for his company right toward the end. NOT 17 rounds per man, BUT 17 rounds for the entire company. He told his men to get in civilian clothes and try to go home and at least save their families. I think I would have done the same thing. It was all over.

While flying from the west coast back to Virginia there was an American sitting next to me who had just gotten out of Saigon. The poor guy was still in shock. He related to me what it was like right at the very last. He claimed that some of the Vietnamese mothers were running by his bus trying to toss their children through the windows in hopes they would be saved. He saw at least one baby go under the wheels of the bus as it headed to the airfield. I wish Kerry, Fonda, and Kennedy would be forced to watch a film of something like that every night, because those people played a big part in it.


30 posted on 04/30/2005 3:33:45 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: brazzaville; Fedora; ALOHA RONNIE; Squantos; archie; B4Ranch; U S Army EOD; CHARLITE; ...
I find a lot of stirring material about Xuan Loc with Google. And then there's this revolting account that I won't repeat here by In the Sorrow of War author (NVA veteran) Bao Ninh: NVA The Battle of Xuan Loc; Mar 17 - Apr 17, 1975 & The End.

Thanks for mentioning Xuan Loc, brazzaville. Our Democrat-controlled Congress was despicable in those days.

I'm half in the bag from too much alcohol consumed in the first class section of my Pan Am clipper from New York, and punchy from the time zone change. Queuing up to the Air Vietnam counter to get my boarding pass for the flight to Saigon, I see a sign being posted, “All Flights to Saigon Canceled.” --Drick Halstead

31 posted on 05/01/2005 11:42:22 AM PDT by risk
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To: risk

It really brings tears to your eyes when you read that stuff. I wonder how many of those guys in the South Vietnamese unit were looking vainly to the skies for American aircraft?


32 posted on 05/01/2005 12:08:29 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: SAMWolf; snippy_about_it

For your review and comments, don't know if have seen this one, might want to ping it to the Foxhole


33 posted on 05/01/2005 12:13:01 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: U S Army EOD
We can't leave our Iraqi and Afghani friends like this. If those ARVN 18th division troops died on Highway 1 in 1976, they shouldn't have had to die in vain. Their sacrifice should be a reminder to us that must never leave our friends to die without mercy again.
34 posted on 05/01/2005 12:13:22 PM PDT by risk
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To: U S Army EOD

1975, not 6


35 posted on 05/01/2005 12:20:05 PM PDT by risk
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To: CHARLITE
"As such, members of the anti-Vietnam War movement let themselves be deceived by the communists."

When are the rank and file Americans gonna realize that the anti-Vietnam War types are not deceived at all? They aren't deceived, they really believe in communism.

We have the Dan Blathers hugging Castro, and the air-headed Janie Fondas telling us to pray that we become communists.

What more do we need to know to realize that there are dangerous subversives right here in our midst?

36 posted on 05/01/2005 12:37:01 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: risk
Go to the news comments on Yahoo sometime and read the post, it will make you sick. Its going to happen again unless we get more active in getting the truth out.

Other Vietnamese units held out for several years. When we as Americans started knocking them, we never could understand that they didn't get to rotate back to the world after one year duty. I met some RFPF's who had been engaged in some sort of combat since the invasion on Japan in 1942. The world is watching us and if we let this happen again, no one will or should ever trust us again.
37 posted on 05/01/2005 12:40:18 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (My US Army daughter out shot everybody in her basic training company.)
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To: CHARLITE
members of the anti-Vietnam War movement let themselves be deceived by the communists. Some influential people in the West, wittingly or not, abetted the communists in their deception.

Not to mention the Soviet Communist inbeds in our media such as Hollywood, music industry, news (both TV and print), Democrat party and Madison Ave. Senator McCarthy warned us about these inbeds back in the 50s but they had complete control of the media and were able to hide the truth ad discredit him. Later when the KGB records were opened to review it was seen that everyone that "Tail gunner Joe" said was a commie was a commie but the MSM has never gotten around to talking about that.

38 posted on 05/01/2005 1:51:05 PM PDT by fella
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To: U S Army EOD; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; SAMWolf
The Chinook that we thought we would never see again rises into the air, carrying us out of Xuan Loc. Dao evidently felt responsible for our safety. He had called in his personal command helicopter to get us out, and has it landed in an area where it would not get mobbed. As General Le Minh Dao says good-bye, tears begin to well in his eyes…"I do not want you to die with me...if they give you a chance to return here, you must refuse. Please tell the Americans you have seen how the 18th Division can fight and die. Now please go!"
 
ARVN troops scurry for choppers.
 
Troops and press left behind as helos lift off.

39 posted on 05/01/2005 4:13:30 PM PDT by risk
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To: BykrBayb; Former Military Chick
Xuan Loc ping - if you thought the evacuation of Saigon was "regretful," just wait until you hear about the battle of Xuan Loc, days before. The entire 18th ARVN division was wiped out making its last stand against Charlie.
40 posted on 05/02/2005 1:59:03 AM PDT by risk
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To: TigerLikesRooster; Dr. Marten

ping to #31 and #40.


41 posted on 05/02/2005 2:06:31 AM PDT by risk
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