Cold War goes on for Russia's spies in Germany

Scotsman ^ | 1 May 2005 | MURDO MACLEOD

[Tailgunner Joe]

TO THE rest of the world they seem the perfect couple. After years of bickering between their two countries, German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder and Russian President Vladimir Putin have stood shoulder to shoulder on a host of issues, including opposing the US-led invasion of Iraq.

But behind the outwardly chummy relations between the two countries, it has been business as usual for Russian agents, who have continued to spy on their former Cold War foes.

The spying has reached such epidemic proportions that German intelligence officers say the best way to find out what German MPs are talking about on their mobile phones is to ask the Russians.

Wolbert Smidt, a former German intelligence officer, told the magazine Der Spiegel that Russian spying in the country is proceeding "on a very massive scale. Little has changed in that respect."

There are believed to be about 130 full-time Russian spies operating in the country - the same number as during the height of East-West tensions.

But the Germans have had to bite their tongues over the spying, as they regard Russia as a vital market and strategic ally, and want Moscow’s backing for Berlin’s ambitions to gain a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

In addition, the looming 60th anniversary of the end of the Second World War has made the Germans reluctant to criticise Moscow.

Russia’s growing market is regarded as a key to kick-starting Germany’s sluggish economy. Earlier this month, Moscow signed a deal for fast new German bullet-trains to run on the creaking Russian railways.

And Schröder regards himself as being close to Putin, a fluent German speaker. What is glossed over is the fact that Putin speaks such perfect German because of the time he spent working in Dresden for the KGB during the Cold War.

[RippleFire]

Er, why? What info do the Germans have that the Russians want?

[Wiz]

ping!

[GarySpFc]

I see the WalMart Warrior (Tailgunner Joe) is faithfully sitting in front of his computer wearing his pajama cammies fighting the Cold War against the evil Russians tonight. Joe has never fought anybody, but has taken up the where the great Joe McCarthy left off, and is showing everybody how to win a war.

[AdmSmith]

Thanks and here is the article from Der Spiegel:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,352649,00.html

From Russia with Love

By Holger Stark

For years, a Russian consul spied on the German army. Officials got wind of it and tried to turn him into a Russian defector. As the situation began to blow up in their faces, German officials hustled to end the matter discreetly so as not to endanger the current German-Russian love affair.


The small baroque town of Amorbach in the Odenwald, south of Frankfurt, offered a perfect backdrop for the unique showdown last November. Just like in the good-old-days of the Cold War, German special agents tiptoed about the ruins of a medieval Benedictine convent and followed a nondescript man in his mid-forties who was obviously waiting for someone at a restaurant in this 4,220-person town.

Under the agents' scrutiny, a member of the German army entered the restaurant. He was carrying classified documents with him that contained information about telecommunications and arms technology. As so often occurred in the past, the secret documents quietly changed hands. The man receiving them spoke German with a thick Russian accent and paid a hefty sum. His pockets full and the transaction completed, the the army officer got up and left the restaurant. The other man was left to pay the bill. As soon as he did, he was captured by the waiting German agents. When they arrested him, the agents discovered that the criminal turned out to be a Russian diplomat.

The operation has since turned into myth -- one of the most dramatic espionage scandal since the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. It has all the components of a juicy spy thriller: treason, a chase and a diplomatic scandal. In fact, it even forced the man -- 45-year-old Russian Consul Alexander Kuzmin, to return to Russia early. The truth is that Kuzmin had been working for the notorious Muscovite military secret service GRU. His mission: to spy on the German military.

The case illustrates how keenly, 15 years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, Russian agents are to search for and obtain classified information. In fact, President Vladimir Putin - himself a former KGB agent - and his secret service seem to be creating their very own translation of "Glasnost." For them, it has come to mean the chance to spy on both friends and enemies.

Bosom buddies

The affair has erupted at the worst possible time. Officially, German-Russian relations "have never been better," says Gernot Erler, of the ruling Social Democratic Party. Lately, Schroeder and Putin have put on quite a buddy show and are often photographed joking and laughing together. At the beginning of last week, the two paled around until 1 a.m. at the Hanover Trade Fair for Industrial Goods. Over souffléd turbot, Schroeder toasted the amicable atmosphere and hailed the newly signed economic contracts between the nations - including one to build a Baltic Sea gas pipeline - as contracts "of historic dimension." For Putin, he had nothing but praise.

For his part, Putin is proving quite an unpredictable international operator. In his years at the KGB, he spent time stationed in the German city of Dresden and knows something about German culture. Lately, he has shown that economic investments are not his only goals. He's also after inside information. The Kremlin, for instance, is eager to uncover the inside German view on the Chechnya question, as well as to scrounge up hidden details about NATO. Germany's Office for the Protection of the Constitution is well aware of this Russian penchant and recently warned that Putin currently has about 130 agents spying on Germany. That's almost as many as in the heyday of the Cold War.

"If you want to know what the members of the German parliament are talking about over their mobiles, just ask the Russians," a German defense agent said sarcastically. In some cases, the Russians make no secret of their activities. The roof of the Russian embassy -- centrally located on Berlin's main street, Unter den Linden -- has special antennas affixed to its roof. Such technical wizardry and boldness continues to astonish German security agencies. In particular, Russia's military intelligence agency, known as the GRU, is working on "a massive scale," said Wolbert Schmid, who works for German intelligence (BND) and who for years headed the German spy program against Russia. "Little has changed," he said, from the days of détente.

When Kuzmin was sent to the Russian consulate general in Hamburg at the end of summer 2000, he simply took over the top spying post from his predecessor. The consulate is a small branch of the more powerful Berlin embassy and is situated on the city's idyllic Alster lake. Kuzmin arrived from Moscow with his wife Fljusa, but without his adult daughter, and was soon promoted to consul. Quiet, out-of-the-way Hamburg seemed a perfect place from which to receive and channel information from high-ranking sources within the German armed forces.

Spying on the spies


Kuzmin met his restaurant source around 20 times before he was nabbed and always arranged meetings in small pubs or restaurants in remote towns in southern Germany. The Russian was trying to get information on German weapons systems, secret codes of the armed forces and any salient details he could find out about the troops. The German had only one interest: money.

The military security service of the German army (MAD) estimates that about Euro 10,000 passed in this way from Russian to German hands. Sometimes sources provided documents. Other times, information passed via computer disks. As the head agent, Kuzmin was responsible for his transactions and had to keep careful records of how his money was spent. As such, he asked for receipts each time money changed hands. With stereotypical German meticulousness, he noted down the name of his tipster, along with the date of the transaction and the amount traded for the information.

What Kuzmin did not know about his restaurant source, however, was that the man had early on told MAD what was going on. MAD then used him as a "counterman," a double-agent who pretended to sell to the Russian, while actually telling the Germans everything that happened at each meeting.

Last summer, MAD began an operation unusual even in the murky world of spies. If they could convince Kuzmin to himself become a double agent, they would accomplish an unprecedented espionage coup. To date, no Western secret service agent has ever successfully infiltrated the GRU. No one really knows how many agents work for the intelligence agency, but the best estimate is about 12,000. Turning Kuzmin would also be a late retaliation for the loss of German defector Hansjoachim Tiedge in 1985. Tiedge worked for the Office for the Protection of the Constitution in Cologne when he was successfully recruited by the East German secret police, known as the Stasi.

As such, the Kuzmin case presented a rare chance to realize a long-sought dream.

Putting the plan into effect

To test the waters, last June, German agents discretely handed Kuzmin a slip of paper with a Cologne phone number and asked him to give a call. In the coded language of spies, this is an unmistakable message. His cover had been blown.

Kuzmin took the paper, but never called. Was he too scared?

The Germans decided to try another tactic. On a cold grey Friday in mid-June, a team of CIA agents and MAD members caught up with the diplomat on the banks of the Alster. They wanted to win him over straight away and tried to reason with him. To no avail.

The Germans then gave the consul time to think over their proposition and allowed him to return to Moscow for his annual vacation. When he returned, they reasoned, they would turn the screws tighter.

Espionage is a dirty business. Money and blackmail are standard operating tools, not only in Russia. Counterespionage works the same way and Germany is no exception.

MAD agents found out that the consul was having an affair and that his wife Fljusa knew nothing about the liaison. They had also heard rumors that the consul had occasionally forged passports, allegedly in exchange for several tens of thousands of euros in bribes.

The consul, it seemed, was an ideal candidate for blackmail. This time around, the German agents approached his wife. It was their third and last attempt to turn him.

When Kuzmin still failed to react, MAD and CIA agents, as well as officials from the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, blew his cover by catching him in Amorbach. They allowed their own double agent -- the man he was meeting -- to slip away. They then gave Kuzman his final choice: cooperation or confrontation, treason or refusal.

One can only speculate why the diplomat -- who clearly had a penchant for intrigue -- refused to cooperate. Perhaps it was fear: The punishment for treason in Russia is years locked away in a prison camp.

That left the German intelligence officials and politicians in an awkward position -- a bit like one feels when one catches a good friend stealing. They were left wondering what they should do. Putin was, after all, their chancellor's close friend.

What do you do when your friends spy on you?

"The chancellor knows about the unpleasant tradition of espionage but tries not to be affected by it," the SPD-member and Russia expert Erler said. Still, it was more than just Schroeder's relationship with Putin that had both sides scrambling for a swift solution. The BND, Germany's foreign intelligence agency, too, is no stranger to spy games and carry on the same sort of operations in Russia. They could hardly take the moral high ground with the Russians.

When all hopes of acquiring a high-ranking defector to their side were shattered, Heinz Fromm, head of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, hopped on the next plane to Moscow.

Fromm, who heads the counter-espionage division, made an appointment for general talks with the civil foreign intelligence agency, known as SWR. He wanted to give the impression he was on a routine visit. Politely, but nevertheless with verve, Fromm told SWR head Sergei Lebedev, who has close ties with Germany, about the Kuzmin case. Lebedev, a fluent German speaker, promised to do what he could to resolve the matter.

That was on December, 3rd 2004.

Two days later, the Kremlin called its dynamic diplomat back to Moscow. This time, for good.

[Atlantic Bridge]

The biggest problem with spying in Germany has the German industry. As a German I do not care that much about millitary spying, since there is nobody to threaten my country seriously in the moment from the outside. If the Russians want to waste their time with the duty rosters of the Bundeswehr, they are welcome. ;-)

BTW - not only Russians are spying here... Chinese spys, Indian spys, Iranians, Israelis, French and even American spys are earning their bread in Germany. Nearly all Germans were looking forward to the final close-down of the US-Echolon-Station in Bad Aibling for instance, since everybody knew, that it was just for controlling our telephone net on our own soil for American industrial causes. This statement has nothing to do with anti-americanism, but with our own well known self-interest. OK - we lost the war, but such plump spying from declared friends and allies was just insulting...

It doesn't matter anyway, because your newer and better Echolon-station in the UK ist good enough to get more information from the old continent than the technically older one in Germany.

Greetings from the Lake Constance!

Andreas

[Red6]

The Germans just threw a Russian and Chinese spy out of their country 3 or so weeks ago.

Red6

[Red6]

"But the Germans have had to bite their tongues over the spying, " The article said.

Funny,

Our "Uebermenchen" also made themselves dependent on Russian natural gas that is piped into their country and used for power generation.

Oh- little do the Germans know how bad their government has Fu**** them.

Red6

[AdmSmith]

The Germans just threw a Russian and Chinese spy out of their country 3 or so weeks ago.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=19193&name=BfV+intelligence+agency+unmasks+foreign+'spies'


BfV intelligence agency unmasks foreign 'spies'

18 April 2005

HAMBURG - The German BfV domestic intelligence agency has in recent months uncovered a Chinese and a Russian spy who were collecting military secrets, according to magazine reports on Saturday.

The Munich-based magazine Focus said the agency had discovered that a Chinese intelligence agent, posing as a diplomat, had been obtaining sensitive information from a former employee of the Dynamit Nobel defence company.

The former arms employee, identified as 60-year-old Hans I. from near Bonn, was offering military documents on new-style ammunition, the magazine said.

The leak was discovered after the BfV bugged the Bonn annex of the Chinese embassy.

Quoting Berlin security sources, Focus said the German man was observed handing over documents to the Chinese intelligence officer on 1 April and was arrested a week later. It said he had admitted part of the allegations.

Focus said Germany was seeking removal of the Chinese official. It said officials feared that an expulsion, as well as the revelation of the bugging, might perturb German-Chinese relations.

[GarySpFc]

BTW - not only Russians are spying here... Chinese spys, Indian spys, Iranians, Israelis, French and even American spys are earning their bread in Germany. Nearly all Germans were looking forward to the final close-down of the US-Echolon-Station in Bad Aibling for instance, since everybody knew, that it was just for controlling our telephone net on our own soil for American industrial causes.

Sorry Andreas, I hate to burst your bubble, but I can tell you for a fact the American government does not do any industrial spying.

[dakine]

hahahaha....

[Red6]

It's pointless.

Any "schneeball/snowball" as the parabolic dish covers are called are immediately secret NSA spying stations in Germany according to them.

They are a bunch of idiots. I have become convinced of this in the last three years while stationed here.

Red6

[Red6]

Here's another funny one.

The French get caught wiring up conference rooms in Strasbourg or somewhere and then when they get caught it's blamed on the US. Conveniently the issue of the Spying at the EU conference subsided real quick. That happened about 1 year ago, after they blamed the US a small correction was once later put out in a press statement and the issue was completely off the radar screen with no reference to it anymore.

These guys are a "clown show".

Red6

[durasell]

I want a pair of cammo pajamas, but I fear what the pattern may resemble.

[AdmSmith]

Andreas, furthermore, Bad Aibling was transferred to the BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst) and I do not think that Lt. Col. Gerhardt Weber the German Air Force Liaison officer to the U.S. Air Force would agree with your comment.

[AdmSmith]

Andreas, ping to http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1394484/posts?page=15#15

[AdmSmith]

Maybe, you as well remember the wiretapping of the chairs in Air France (but just for 1:st class passengers)

[Red6]

The US is fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We are in Columbia, Rep. Georgia, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, S. Korea, Peru, Bolivia, Philippines, Sinai, Kosovo, Bosnia and elsewhere. Our whole purpose in life in the US-the most important thing we need to do is spy on the Germans and their great "High Tech" industry.

I hear Intel, TI, Raytheon are dying to get a hold of all those German WWII "Wunderwaffen".

But wait! We already have AIM9X and they are building something like it (IRIS-T). We have stealth, AMRAAM-D (which their METEOR eventually if they figure it out will be like), PAC3 Patriot, SM3, FBCB2 (Which their Herkules is very similar too but still does not work), we have a countermeasure suite and have a second gen coming out (They have NOTHING and the cooperation with Russia "Arena" has failed)......... Sure- We need all those super high tech German super minds with their big foreheads to give us their technology and share their intellect.

Here’s something this little genius didn’t know. Years ago we used to train German intel guys and let them into the facilities at Bad-Aibling.

When did the whole Echelon issue come up is also a very interesting point to check up. It all started about 2001 when a big wig EU official from Portugal (Name with held) tried to bully himself access to a US facility and was told “NO”. After that they were on a war path. Goal? Bully yourself access into something you did not help pay to build nor have been cleared access too. With enough political pressure you can make a lot of things happen. Since then, hundreds of insinuations, little comments, have been flying around. Never is their proof. Never does anything hold up when further investigated.

Fact is; the British, Canada, New Zealand, Australia all have complete access to the NSA. They helped pay for it, they help manage and man it. Some were offered to be part but said “NO”, now years later some want to “strong arm” themselves access. Screw them jokers. Those nations who did not pay should not have access! In the end, they will still get intel from this system as we all share information within various bodies, but those nations have no “right” to access. They are given what is deemed necessary.

The French run a similar system, but where is the criticism by these Euroweenies? In fact, France where industry and government are joined and near indistinguishable it becomes very easy, likely and beneficial to use the state intelligence services to work in benefit of the state run turbine manufacturer. But that’s going into a whole new realm.

Red6

[Red6]

:)

I do remember.

I also know about a French Mirage going off of the yellow line while taxing and getting close to the rear of F16s taking pictures of towed decoys on the back of them. (also something the Germans are WAY behind in- but maybe we steal all this from them with the NSA???)

Sniffer pods which read our ECM signitures have been identified.......... (Maybe they just want to figure out if we stole how to jam certain radars from them?) :)

Red6

[Grzegorz 246]

What's your problem ? You really don't have to read it.

[GarySpFc]

BTW - not only Russians are spying here... Chinese spys, Indian spys, Iranians, Israelis, French and even American spys are earning their bread in Germany. Nearly all Germans were looking forward to the final close-down of the US-Echolon-Station in Bad Aibling for instance, since everybody knew, that it was just for controlling our telephone net on our own soil for American industrial causes. This statement has nothing to do with anti-americanism, but with our own well known self-interest. OK - we lost the war, but such plump spying from declared friends and allies was just insulting...

BTW, I forgot to add something. You focused on the fact that you lost the war, and that gave us certain rights. However, we did not treat you like losers. Rather, we built you up with the Marshall Plan, then we protected Germany for another 50 years. We treated you like allies, and victors when it was actually our willpower that won the Cold War, and you benefited. Now that you have shown how you are an ungrateful bunch we cannot wait to get our troops out of your country. Bye bye.

[GarySpFc]

Russia’s growing market is regarded as a key to kick-starting Germany’s sluggish economy. Earlier this month, Moscow signed a deal for fast new German bullet-trains to run on the creaking Russian railways.

Both my father and grandfather were railroaders, and I know a lot about the industry. While it may be true that Russia does not have any bullet trains, it is very wrong to label their railways as creaking. I have ridden their trains many times, and can tell you the tracks are maintained as good as anything in the US. Almost all of their ties are concrete, which is not true in the US.

[Grzegorz 246]

Cool.

[jb6]

Just a quick question: do we spy on Germany, Russia, France, Japan, etc? Or are we guiltless in this?

[jb6]

Wouldn't expect any less from Tailgunner, getting the shots in after the pass is over.

[Red6]

You said in an email to me:

”BuHuHaHaHa!

You should change your job. You are still in Germany and after three years you are still not welcome. Such misfortune can lead to gastric ulceritis over the years. Belive me - this is not funny...

As far as I know, you come somewhere from Alaska. Beautiful area with great possibilities. Even the girls are nice. Wouldn't it be good to go home instead of wasting your time in K-town, Wiesbaden or any other ugly German garrison town with their cheap brothels and unfriendly inhabitants??! Just think about it.”

---

1. I'm protestant and don't engage in your "legal" amoral typical German activities. Other things I abstain from that are "typical" German behaviors: Pot smoking, love parades, homosexual sex, sex clubs, men acting like women…………

2. I already have a wife. Sorry, I can't give some German woman an escape from your dismal pathetic socialist state.

3. If you need a job please inquire at the local US consulate for a "Green Card". Unfortunately there are more German applicants than slots available so we have to raffle off who we let in.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/

4. Yes, my state is very beautiful. Our mountains, lakes, rivers, EVERYTHING is bigger than in you wet, grey country with its “gothic” population. Truth is, there even is better skiing in Alaska. I tried your ski slopes, they are over rated. Hunting in Germany SUCKS! Flying in Germany is near impossible (private planes)......... You are right. I AM trying to get back as fast as possible. I am fluent in German. I have lived in Germany before (As you know). I really didn't ask to be stationed there. So what was your point? As before we agree on the point that I need to leave. You keep repeating yourself, do you know that?

5. I suggest you look at officers housing once at Graf, Ramstein or elsewhere. Most Germans can't afford what I live in. Are you jealous?

I’ll make it easy for you! (I don’t know if you can access these sites. So I’ll add it up for you.

This is the table for “base pay”:

http://www.dod.mil/dfas/money/milpay/pay/paytable2005-rev1.pdf

Here you can figure out COLA (Cost Of Living Adjustment):

https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/allowcol.html

Here you can compute what a US soldier makes to pay for rent:

https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/ohaform.html

Then we get bonuses ($150 Parachutist, $220 foreign language), travel pays, combat pays (Tax free when deployed, $250 separation pay, $250 hazardous duty), incentive pays, we pay WAY less taxes than you, have AAFES (You probably try to sneak in or have people buy things there for you-cigarettes or booze) and other places where we don’t pay your over inflated prices.………… My allowance for RENT is more than the average German makes! $2430 a month.

6. You’re even right when it comes to the “friendliness of people”. It’s not an anti-American thing even if you try to twist it. I’m 6’3’’ white blue eyes and blond. I look more German than most Germans and I speak German fluently (Better than most of your people). Fact is, the Germans are an “elbow” society. You can see this at a German Sub-way. They are extremely unfriendly to kids as a society (They don’t have them because they can’t fit children into their “hedonistic” lives (Which I explained to you before). However, looking and speaking German, having lived here before and most Germans never knowing I’m American I do engage in some fairly interesting conversations where I get a true read of the German way of thinking, the moods, opinions and popular trends. This stuff interests me.

7. Don’t worry about my health. I know your type was really concerned when our troops deployed to Iraq. But I neither need nor expect anything from you or anyone else. I do my job because I like it. But reality is that I live outside of your paradigm. I’m like an observer looking into your glass house and all I see I can care less for. I’m not part of the system you are in, but I closely see its day to day operation.

Go on. Live your pathetic communist little life and leave us alone. All you guys have left that defines you is a car. That’s why a German will spend his last Cent on his car. He can’t do much else besides drive fast and screw (But they don’t even seem to have offspring-are you impotent?).

Why don’t you stop using your computer (Probably American processor-Windows OS....)? Don’t use the internet either, DoD invention. Don’t use your Phone (Alexander Gram Bell), and turn off your lights (Thomas Edison). Go crawl away; go back into that hole you came from you troll. Don’t make me have to insult you some more! But I would like to know, how does it feel for someone like you to know that the nation you hate (USA) defines every aspect of your life?

You’re pathetic.

Red6

[Michael81Dus]

I´ll reply with a counter-question: why do you think receive NSA, CIA agents their paychecks? Today, intelligece means not that much like spying in the sense of sending agents to foreign authorities, but collecting and rating informations from foreign countries.

[Red6]

The NSA is the SIGINT branch of our INTEL community at national level. They don't operate like out of a movie. It's no "agent or field officer" who collects.

Go to their web site. www.nsa.gov

They want people with degrees in Information systems management, programming, mathematicians, electrical engineering. No James Bond.

A large degree of their job is actually safe-guarding OUR information. FACT, the US is the MOST spied on nation in the world. We have more enemies, bigger enemies, are world leaders in science, defense, and the leading nation in politics and many want to collect on us. Both in defense (The NSA is tied closely into the DoD) and private industry the US is constantly being probed, collected on or even cyber attacked (As was the case where a few years ago massive damage was done by a punk from Indonesia). The NSA establishes all the standards that other agencies must conform to in regards to SIGINT.

You are flattering yourself if you think the NSA has nothing better to do than to collect on some firm in Saxony. You do realize that people are dying in combat in several places? The NSA has limited resources; these resources are allocated where they are needed the most. There are informal and even formal arrangements and agreements where nations DO NOT recruit or collect on one another. Germany in many respects has little to offer from a collection effort (As arrogant as it sounds, it’s true).

Realize that there is a difference between collecting “IN” a country and collecting “ON” a country. A moron like “Atlantic Bridge” has a hard time with a concept like that. He believes you must sit 5KM from the source to collect on a transmission from the Balkans.

But as stated many times, none of this matters when you’re dealing with an ideologue who hates the US. The NSA became a temporary punching bag in an EU/US power play over access. The EU lost. The issue has all but died. Much of these operations have moved away.

Again, France has a huge INTEL community and their industry is closely tied into their government. They do not have the threats nor are under the pressure we are. Historically the French do spy on their neighbors and HAVE been caught NUMEROUS times. But for the EU playing this up would not fit well into the current picture or mood, wouldn’t it?

Red6

[Michael81Dus]

I find nothing wrong in your post, I just add that the US keeps monitoring e-mails, phonecalls, faxes, by searching for key words. Furthermore, if the company in Saxony develops sensitive technology, it can become operational target of foreign intelligence. Agents are the last option, when informations aren´t available otherwise, and v e r y seldom.

[Red6]

"It doesn't matter anyway, because your newer and better Echolon-station in the UK ist good enough to get more information from the old continent than the technically older one in Germany." You say.

THE BRITISH, AUSTRALIANS, NEW ZEALAND, CANDA AND THE US ARE ALL MEMBERS OF THIS PROGRAM. The Brits RUN a part of this! Pull your head out of your @ss and read something for once other than the "Socialist World News" or the world according to "Chirac's Pan European dream, edited and approved by Gerhard Schroeder”.

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

France is NOT a major player in the fight against narcotics. Columbia, Peru, Bolivia, Afghanistan, Thailand or elsewhere.

France is NOT a player in S. Korea. France is NOT a player in regards to China (In fact more of a problem than a solution). France was not a major contributor to the solution in the Balkans (In fact the French sided with the Serbs) and were not a neutral party. France was where in East Timor? When did you arrive in Sudan? You are not a major player, although you “THINK” you are. YOU have been caught several times spying on Germany, but Schroeder needs you now politically.

I guess Britain is spying on themselves? You know there is a huge station in Canada too! Are they spying on themselves too? Steeling their own secrets to give back to themselves, how does this work?

Do you think it’s pure coincidence that the EU spilled out all the info they did right around 2001 when they began to attempt a forced entry? Look at who the source is on near all information about Echelon and it's all spun a certain way. Do you think it’s a coincidence that the topic suddenly died politically? Why is “Frencheon” (Your lesser capable, later built copy of the US system) not on public trial in the EU? After-all, so far it’s been the French that HAVE been caught spying on their neighbors even in EU conference rooms.

Do you think that FM transmissions end at a national boarder? What about transmissions bounced off the troposphere? You think MAYBE you need to relay stuff collected somewhere in Africa to the US for analysis? The US is still collecting in Europe (With the Brits, Canadians, New Zealand, Australians). As I told your German side kick, collecting “IN” does not mean collecting “ON”. You will NOT have access to this program. You didn’t pay for it, have your own and are not even to be trusted. As usual the real loser here is the Germans. Why? Jobs.

Again. German intel personnel used to be able to enter the facilities in Bad Aibling. The US didn't lose here, just the mislead German public which was a pawn in a big power move.

Red6

[patience+plumpudding]

well mister intellectually superior - whats's your profession then ? Rocket scientist ?

you guys behave and don't throw your toys at each other.

[patience+plumpudding]

if you guys got brains - you spy.

do you all believe in santa ? If I ever make it and file a patent that might change something in this world, I will be very paranoid. And I don't trust Uncle Sam just because of his nice hat. If somebody buys a spoon, he might eat with it.

:)

[Wiz]

Ask the intelligence and the leaders for that question.

[Atlantic Bridge]

This is really funny. Red6 is a little pilot...

No - not all Germans are addicted to cars...

Although we have several planes in my family, the "Red 7" (no kidding) is for sure the most interesting one. A quarter of her is owned by one of my uncles (still no kidding):

It is one of the last three airworty Messerschmidt Me 109

Me 109 G4 with a DB 605 A Motor (1475 PS), Maximum Speed: about 650 km/h, The fuel consumption is about 400 liters (106 US-Gallons) per hour. A real nightmare to the German greens. BTW - my grandfather shot down a few Liberators and B-17s with a simular plane 60 years ago. Although he preferd the Fw 190 D-9 for doing that. :-)

Thank God the times are a changing. Today my family is quite cosmopolitan and no one has an intention to shoot down Americans or do something anti-american anymore. Another uncle (not that one with the Me 109) of me is professor in New York and lives there with his family. A part of the family is in Paris and some are in Somerset on the British island. You see - no need for dumb nationalism, America-hate or nazism in my world. I have been quite often in the USA and in Canada and I liked the people and the landscapes. For an old European like me is the "big wide open" something really spechial.

My problem with guys like you is your relativism and your false moral. Every value is relative and exchangeable as long it fits in your contemporary primitive needs. There is a difference in being a killer and a christian. There is a difference between truth and lie. There is a difference between good and bad. I am afraid, that you never learned those lessons.

Your attempt to impress me with your income, housing or whatever was really sweet. I am the boss of two firms, have two univercity degrees, a nice house with a nice garden and own even a fishing pond, which is something very special in the dense populated Germany (Yes I go fishing and skiing. Some of my closer friends are hunting - we seem to have the same interests). My working week has 60 hours and more, I am moving things and there are quite a few people who are dependent on me. Maybe I am no Rockefeller, but I earn my living on my own.

Pot smoking, love parades, homosexual sex, sex clubs and men acting like women are no typical German activities, even if some bumpkins in your barracks think that in their dirty phantasys. I am married and I have a beautiful wife and three wonderful little boys. Nothing in my live to fit in your wet dreams

[Red6]

Personally I don’t really get upset about your type and their meager attempts to prove their “worthiness”. It’s pretty self-evident that your people have been genetically depleted after the two great wars. It appears to me that after all viable men had been killed off, the rest either left or were bread into the large Southern Italian, Yugoslav and Turkish immigrant populations flooding your nation.

What kind of business are you in? Doenner Kebab stands?

Germany before 1945 was IMmoral. Germany after 1945 is Amoral. As I said before, you are a hedonistic society. One that is in pursuit of “pleasure” and that is it. This is evidenced by your “sex tourism” to Thailand for the men and Jamaica for the women. It is true that German churches are near empty. People pay their church tax (Implemented by Adolf to make the church look the other way as the NAZIs did their work) but few practice any religion. The German excuses his complete amoral and relativistic society on the past (The evil years 60 years ago).

However, the German will completely disassociate himself from this time. The events are downplayed or any responsibility is categorically denied. In fact, most see themselves as victims! The most common response from a German about the Holocaust, “I didn’t know”. Sure-6,000,000 people disappear, smoke stacks a rollin, thousands of guards-train-IG Faben employees working to make all this possible. A lot of this WITHIN visual range from villages, scattered all over. But- “I didn’t know”. You don’t even have the intestinal fortitude to admit you’re wrong or take responsibility as a society. Because you take no responsibility for anything, including your own actions, you’re prone to make the same mistakes in the future. As evidenced in the Balkans when you sat on your hands watching the genocide happen 300Km from your boarder. So much for the, “Never will we let this happen again” statement after the war.

Only after you had 250,000 Bosnian refugees in your country did you begin to see a “moral” value in helping them. More example? Sure, Sudan, Liberia…………. So what does one do if you’re “hedonistic” and “irresponsible”? If one does not want to do anything? You attack the moral basis of the operation. You say “Our past prevents us from helping”. Better yet, in long lasting German tradition, you blame the USA. How that? “Well, you wrote our Constitution! You made us not able to help you outside our boarders.” You say that as you rub your hands and hope to make little deals with third rate nations or belligerents like Iraq, China and Libya. Oh Germany-What have you become!? A quivering mess of liberal homos.

The Germans are a “gay” people. And I don’t mean this in the context of a “happy Volk”.

http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/info/publications/infocus/traveland/rainbow.html

http://www.glaubeaktuell.net/portal/nachrichten/nachricht.php?IDD=1103520959

Turn on German TV and what will you see? Lilo Wanders:

http://www.radiobremen.de/tv/hoechstpersoenlich/wanders.html , http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/11/0,1872,2007211,00.html

Or Liebe Suende, or Peep, or 500 other Porn shows that run on your TV. I have never seen as many Homos as in Germany.

You are best described by a Saturday Night Live skit, “Sprockets.”

http://snl.jt.org/char.php?i=153 Since you’re so “cosmopolitan” you should know it.

Germans and “cosmopolitan”. You’re provincial people who think you’re cosmopolitan! Nevertheless, we forgive you, we know you’re just the product of a bad education system and morally corrupted society.

Red6

[Atlantic Bridge]

I am not in the Doener Kebab Business, but as a civil engineer and as a architekt, I own a engineering company for industrial architekture and a separated firm that destructs and dynamite old buildings and moves earth in the big way. For instance we blew large parts of the facilitys of the US forces in Augsburg away, after they were not needed there anymore. You see, for me it is even a business when you and your buddies disappear. BTW - I have a quite sucessfull turkish friend who runs a Doener Kebab stand alongside his other business. That is not slanderous.

After 1945 thank God most Germans stopped thinking in racial dimensions. If I reinterpret your reasoning right, you seem to have a problem with Southern Italian, Yugoslav and Turkish immigrants because they -as you say- deplete the German gene pool. Sorry - that is just dumb racisim and is for sure not the attitude in that a officer of the US-forces should behave. I am quite sure that your commanding officers would roast your ass if you would have your "come out" (hehe) as a racist in your daily duty. Your own country, the US are just a melting pot of different races and nations. And that is not bad at all.

Germany is not perfect and we have for sure a lot of poor, perverted sinners like this crazy Lilo Wanders. I have never been to Thailand or Jamaica (my wife was in Jamaica but for sure not because of sex tourism since she has me), but I am quite sure that all those perverts meet their American equivalents there. Sorry - but the sex industry is just not my world.

You say that you are a protestant. The thing that can be learned from Martin Luther -as the most important prostestant- is how to use its own brain. For many Europeans it is very sad how some (thank God not all) churches in your country pervert the happy message of Jesus into a pulp of blood. It is true that war can be righteous. But the difference between self-righteous and righteous motives are sometimes very thin. I had some fellow students from Iraq (that was during the first US-Iraq war) when I visited univercity. The funny and strange thing to me was, that they hated Saddam Hussein and (!) the US with verve. Same thing with the Iranians (and I know quite a few). They hate Chamenei but they hate the US also (espechially for their mean role in the Mossadegh-affair during the 50ties). Is it okay to "help" people that do not want to be helped with carpet bombing of their capital city? Just use your brain.

Most Germans do not deny their responsibility for the holocaust. The thing is, that I am 37 years old and this disaster happend 60 years ago. Maybe it fits in your world to prosecute the seventh son of a seventh son. To me this is bullshit. If you join into a war, you have to take sides. Former Jugoslavia was a littlebit like Afghanistan. In Afghanistan the US where against the Taliban because they stoned women on base of the sharia law. Now the jurisprudence of Hamid Karzai is stoning women on base of the sharia law. Do you understand? Sometimes the form of "help" that you and your compatriots are providing doesn't solve the problem.

[Atlantic Bridge]

"...I have a BS and am working on my MBA..."

You are for sure a "(M)eister der (B)esonderen (A)rt".

Have a nice day!

[RJL]

the tracks are maintained as good as anything in the US.

Isn't this damning them with faith praise?

[Red6]

Stop, stop the madness!

You obviously don’t understand basic genetics or the theory of evolution. When 3 MILLION German men die in one war (WWII) and these are primarily between the ages of 16-45 and they are “viable” ones, you quickly run into a situation where your “stock” looses quality. Simply put, the intelligent and healthy ones have been killed off.

I’m referring to the “quality” of genes probably still present in your people. Never did I say that one race was better than the other! But-this does give insight into “your” thinking process. But what can one expect from a society that still determined nationality based on blood rights until a few years ago?

Everyone knows that the Germans were genetically mixed already before they ever were a nation. There is a reason why the German is referred to as a “Hun”. We all know about the story of Roland, elephants in the Alps, Romans……… There is a reason why you even refer to “Down syndrome” as “Mogolismus”. Yes, we know about the Ottomans. Despite Hitler’s racial dreams, you were a genetically racial mixed population long before is reign.

However, before the Romans were there you can say that their was a lot of “in breeding” going on. Some German barbarian tribes didn’t mate outside their population.

Never would I put down the Germans because they are mixed. Hell, my grandfather was there after WWII, we may even be related for all I know? However, this does not change the fact that qualitatively the genetic pool was depleted during WWI and WWII. It’s natural selection in reverse (Assuming you believe in natural selection). This does not mean that any one race is better or worse.

Don’t twist my words. Try taking off your racially selective glasses and understand that all races have quality stock. You were just exhausted after the wars and then mixed with Italians, Yugoslavs and Turks. If you doubt what I say, go to a German school and look around!

You obviously have an issue with Americans living in (by German standards) over sized homes.

http://www.onestoparmy.com/_hqd/BaseHousing_show.asp?base=360&planid=9&rid=2&k=0

I understand you worked in US housing areas. Then you should know that after the US Army left Frankfurt, the apartments were nearly cut in half and given to German families. I guess that’s OK? You’re used to living in closer my tight confined homes.

You do understand though that US housing in Germany is “sub-standard” by even official policy? In the US the places are better. We really don’t want to invest money in a place we don’t know we’ll be at in 10 years.

Example is Fort Leavenworth.
http://www.onestoparmy.com/_hqd/BaseHousing_show.asp?base=90&planid=24&rid=7&k=0

See the difference?

Here’s a listing with a pictorial guide of all housing areas in the Army. Yes, as usual the USAF has better facilities than the Army.

http://www.onestoparmy.com/ahos_contacts.asp

But reality is that 40% of US forces (Army and USAF) live OFF POST. In Germany that’s about 28,000 houses and apartments.

I understand you did some work on US installations. Glad that we could help your business. Here’s an article I found interesting about Germany, and it covers Germans who work for us.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=23675&archive=true

If you want the whole and complete story (Not the edited down version of estripes that’s missing 90% of what he said) go to:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nypost/373029601.html?did=373029601&FMT=ABS&FMTS=FT&date=Jul+21%2C+2003&author=&desc=PETERS%27+SLAM+AT+GERMANS+IS+THE+WURST

But basically he defines it fairly well in this article.

You know, a lot of US soldiers have been to Iraq. Most will tell you that the relationship between the US and Iraqi’s is anything but bad. I worked with some Iraqis for several months. I’m sure you’re now a Middle East expert too. Or are you French? German? A Civil Engineer or an Airbus test pilot? I don’t know nor do I care. But reality is. With all your “Scheinheilligkeit” (Fake morals) you have actually tried to JUSTIFY keeping an oppressive and horrible regime in power in Iraq. You ask me to “think about something.” All I can think of, is what an Iraqi Prime Minister must think of the Germans who fought against all efforts to remove Saddam and his two sons from power? Go take your pseudo-moral-science and tell it to someone who don’t know better.

What must over 70% of the population in Iraq who voted be thinking about a people like you who wanted to keep this Regime in power? Yea, right, they didn’t want to change. One saw that after he was caught in all the celebrations. Those who are educated and in government must surely think a lot of your people who would have rather made deals with this slimy Regime! YOU are the ones making little deals behind closed doors with corrupt third rate nations and their Regimes. Read:

http://www.entwicklungspolitik.org/index_8116.htm

http://home.t-online.de/home/gplatzdasch/irakdeba.htm

http://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/wuf/wf-91/9130701m.htm

War is ugly and the end state may require death and destruction as its means. If we were to apply your reasoning to WWII we would still have Hitler in power today. You are the epitome of those who use “Scheinheilligkeit” and “Schadenfreude” to justify your inaction. You hide behind these fake morals and a fake historical pretence of why you shouldn’t help. You’re the guy at the train station watching someone have a heart attack and refusing to help. Just keep rubbing your hands and “pretending” to have morals.

The Germans are probably on the worlds face one of the most despised people there are. The Russians, Poles, Jews, EVEN THE IRAQI’s do not like you. Even your new found friends the French can’t stand you (There is a difference between Chirac and Schroeder’s love affair and what the people in France on the street think of you). The Brits have no love for you either, nor do the Dutch! Schroeder had to break off his vacation in Italy because the Italians love the Germans so much. You live in a fantasy world.

Think about who likes you? The REGIME (Mullahs) in Tehran, Saddam and his sons, Quadaffi is developing a new liking for you. Syria’s little dictator likes you too! Your relationship with China is good also. If the people you hang out with are an indicator (The defining argument) of who you are, you’d be a sleazy slime bag of a nation. Consider Schroeder who went to China and now with no where to go hopes to make sales for the Airbus A380 by dropping EU arms restrictions to them. You have become the vermin that you once defined another race/religion as being. You are rapidly becoming the “unter or niedermensch.”

I can’t imagine what it must be like for Schaeuble who was drilled by a terrorist bullet and made to a cripple consequently, to have to sit there and listen to Fischer (One of Germany’s most popular men-who supported the Autonomen and was even on the fringes of the RAF) talk? Think about that.

You are wasting my time. You make me feel dirty just writing you. Yuck.

Red6

[Red6]

Well,

Bush has an MBA.

If the Germans had a "clue" about economics and business maybe your economy wouldn't be in the dumpster.

Red6

[Atlantic Bridge]

"...You obviously don’t understand basic genetics or the theory of evolution. When 3 MILLION German men die in one war (WWII) and these are primarily between the ages of 16-45 and they are “viable” ones, you quickly run into a situation where your “stock” looses quality. Simply put, the intelligent and healthy ones have been killed off..."

That is wrong. Those who are the best carriers of the best genetic material managed to survive the war (like my grandfathers i.e.) due to their intelligence. BTW - reduced to the individuum they were fitter than their enemys during the war too. Just ask your downed buddies from the airforce. They didn't had the possibility to pass on their genes anymore... Nature is unfathomable and at no time evenhanded.

You should not talk about things you do not understand properly. Hitler did that before and we all know the effect. I will not compare you with that moron since you will not change anything on this planet. But - wouldn't it be better to read some more books and change your "bachelor of science" into a real master of science??! After all you are just working on your "Meister der besonderen Art". BuHuHaHa!

I have absolutely no issue with people living in big homes. If you emphasise on the reduction of space in transformed flats in Frankfurt - is it possible that they were needed for singels or elderly persons instead of soldiers with complete families? I do not know the case and frankly I am not too interested in it. Your floor plans are rather boring. If you are in architecture you should buy some books of (we say something American for little Red6) Frank Lloyd Wright. Great designs but usually not affordable to a "Meister der besonderen Art" in the US Airforce. Sorry.

Fact is, that the construction of houses in Germany and the US is completely different. Germany has much higher standarts in fire prevention and noise insulation. Most houses in the US are made of wooden framework while German buildings usually are made of bricks and concrete. That doesn't mean that the German houses are the better ones. We have a horrible problem with red tape and legal standards in my country. This lead to extremly high basic prices of German houses. The cost/performance ratio of houses in America is much better. BTW - the victims of 9/11 would have had much better chances to survive in a German skyscraper since a framework out of steel (with a coating to prevent superheating of the core) like in the WTC would have been illegal in my country. Our buildings have to be made out of concrete wich gives them a much better stand in a firestorm.

"...All I can think of, is what an Iraqi Prime Minister must think of the Germans who fought against all efforts to remove Saddam and his two sons from power..."

BuHuHaHa! The really last one I can think of is the Iraqi Prime Minister. There are enough others who had to pay a hard price for their new system.

I already said before that you have a problem with relativism. Maybe you need an example:

Is democracy

a) Democratic centralism? (for you - communism - I doubt that you ever read Karl Marx)
b) Representative democracy?
c) Direct democracy?

Every named form of "democracy" claims to be the true and real one. Personally, for me there is only one form that is a real direct transmittance of power between executive and the sovereign (for a happy American like you: "We the People..."). The thing they do in Switzerland works wonderful and is really democratic. They make every year a plebiscite about the current issues and their politicians can handle the small things. No wars, no faschism, no moral breakdown just wealth and a good living. The German system, which we recieved from America after the WWII, is just a anodyne to keep the common people calm. It has nothing to do with "real" democracy. Like in the US there is a small functionary caste that rules the whole country. I am so fed up with all Kohls, Schroeders, Merkels, Raus, Schillys and their bloodsucking friends. As far as I know you gave the Iraqis the same rotten system (since it is your very own). As we see it seem to work perfectly with morons like you, who would give their life for it. Be careful - you obviously don’t understand basic genetics.

[Red6]

(I’ll attempt to teach you something, since you’re evidently an ignoramus)

My little “expert”, you just prove your ignorance by stating that we carbon copied our democracy and placed it upon you.

1. Germany has a Parliamentary system with a Chancellor; we have an executive who is “voted” into office directly through the electoral college.

2. Your states are powerless and near meaningless. You have a “centralized” system where we have a lot of real power at the state level (decentralized).

3. Your judicial system is different from ours (Our Federal system and 49 states, since LA uses Napoleonic code like in Germany)

4. There is a lot of variation between states and how things are done. Alaska for example has a lot of referendums that are combined with the elections. When we voted for Bush the first time, we had all kinds of questions on the ballot other than Bush vs. Gore.

Although we created your Deutsche Mark, and it was first printed in part even in the US, our nations are not alike. We didn’t dictate all aspects of how this democracy in Germany would work. Just like Iraq will have an Iraqi flavor of Democracy. The peoples culture, history, demographics and much more shape how this democracy looks, yet they have a democracy, just like in Afghanistan or even Japan. Who would have ever thought that Japan (Asian, Shinto, an Emperor with NO democratic traditions) would work out so well?

Germany is beginning to fail economically. While you believe in you “Sozial Staat” (And in the past even preached national superiority based on this- “Heinz look, the Ami’s have 35 million uninsured! Ha ha ha”) you are unwilling to accept that it’s this system that is causing you to fail combined with very poor policies laid down in the last 10 years or so. “Atomkraft nein danke”, “Genetechnik nein danke”, “Arbeit nein danke!“ The German has been a socialist for a long time. He was so even before Hitler took power. The German is a central thinker and is prone to “group think”.

I understand that you do not know much about the US, so you probably don’t know that things like building codes vary from state to state. (Remember, we are decentralized) In some places, “fire” is a hazard and the code requires brick or concrete construction. In CA the building code is different from what you’re used to because of earthquakes.

In war, one takes his youth and future and throws it into a meat grinder. Germany was only surpassed by Russia in losses I believe. When 14 year old Hitler Youth kids are getting shot dead because that’s all a nation has left to fight with, they are depleted. Germany lost nearly it’s whole middle age male viable population in WWII. When they went into universities and took any able body, and sent people out to die on the “Volks Sturm” there were not engaging in a practice that weeded out the weak. No, what happened was that many surrendered; many Germans to old, sick or even deserters survived the war and breed on afterwards. The healthy, able-bodied ones died like the 250,000 that fought US troops from France into Germany. They were captured like the over one hundred thousand in the Africa Corps (Hand picked troops that were considered better than average). They died in pointless battles like at Stalingrad and those who did survive did so out of pure luck, not skill or talent.

Culture makes wealth. Wealth makes no culture. The Germans are a sheltered society disconnected from the realities of this world. The post war generations grew up in a society that was infused with outside money, protected from competition and are used to an entitlement society. They will have a hard time competing on the world stage in the future. For sure, the great “Sozial Staat” will come to an end. Ironically this will come at the hands of the SPD and Greens. However, Hartz is too little WAY too late. There eventually will be some affect, but in economics as in most big systems, changes come slow. A trend that is systemic as it is in Germany is especially hard to turn around.

I’m tired of berating you. I don’t have the time nor interest to educate some 14 year old pre-pubescent German about civics. Grow up and get a job, but I hear that’s hard in Germany. I can't possibly make up for years of poor education. As the Pisa studies have revealed.

Red6

[OKWNORD]

Why don’t you stop using your computer (Probably American processor-Windows OS....)? Don’t use the internet either, DoD invention. Don’t use your Phone (Alexander Gram Bell), and turn off your lights (Thomas Edison). Go crawl away; go back into that hole you came from you troll. Don’t make me have to insult you some more! But I would like to know, how does it feel for someone like you to know that the nation you hate (USA) defines every aspect of your life? You’re pathetic. Red6

He forgot the first radio broadcast (Germany), first TV broadcast (1936 Olympics, Berlin), so Red6 give up your cellPHONE and computer MONITOR!

To:Atlantic Bridge

I know the type person Red6 is. I've lived here in the USA since 1952 (I was 3), when my parents came here after the war. I have seen/heard his SUPER PATRIOT rant from hundreds like him. The only thing missing from Red6's rant is he is an Ubermensch!

There are many many good people here in the USA but a few arrogant, hate mongers like Red6. They are the ones I like to tell that even though I've live here in the USA since I was 3, I still maintain my German citizenship (parents, sisters, brother all US citizens). You should see the looks on their faces. Most of them sputter, "you live here but don't want to be a US citzen?" As if being "one of them" makes you almost god like. I just laugh and say I love MY country just like you do yours. That makes them madder!

GERMANY is a great country! It took 14 individual nations to defeat a small German nation in WWII and the outcome was in serious doubt for a while. Most of these hate mongers deep down fear that the German nation might once again rise up against the worlds demo-commie governments and this time we'd win.

You should have seen the newspaper headlines here during the East/West German reunification a few years ago. You'd have thought Hitler's body had come back to life. There were many writers who opposed reunification becasuse Germans are so war like. Then a few years later it was, "Germany needs to send troops to one country or another and help the USA."

If I were you, I'd ignor Red6! He's most likly a southern goober who sits on front of his mommy's computer, in his stained boxer shorts, drinking beer, writing on FR in between looking at porno shots of Hillery C.

Ein Kamerad

[Atlantic Bridge]

"...There are many many good people here in the USA but a few arrogant, hate mongers like Red6..."

It is like everywhere else on this planet... We have a simular problem here in Europe with such narcissists being drunk from their crude and dumb nationalism. To publicise their silly lies seem to be their very own form of auto-erotic.

It is nice to know that America is more than Red6!

Have a nice day and best wishes from the Lake Constance!

Andreas