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Debunking a spitting image - (says Viet Vets never spat upon when they returned to USA!)
BOSTON.COM ^ | APRIL 30, 2005 | JERRY LEMBCKE

Posted on 05/01/2005 8:53:50 PM PDT by CHARLITE

STORIES ABOUT spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.

What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."

Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity. GIs landed at military airbases, not civilian airports, and protesters could not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops.

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: antiwarmovement; boston; bostonglobe; bostonglobehoax; bullzogby; claims; debunking; hippies; jerrylembcke; lembcke; liberalelite; lyingliar; makesitup; mistreatment; nospittingupon; protests; spit; spitupon; vets; vietnam; vietnamveterans; vietnamvets; vietnamwar; vvaw; zogbyism
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LETTER TO THE EDITOR

Dear Sirs,

The Globe does its readers a disservice by failing to inform them of the background of Mr. Jerry Lembcke (Debunking a Spitting Image, April 30), describing him merely as an associate professor of sociology and author. In fact, Mr. Lembcke is a long-time radical activist with a history of publications written in support of Marxist ideals, including the book "One Union in Wood," a political history of the International Woodworkers of America endorsed and recommended by the Communist Party, USA. He was also a member of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, an organization that specialized in making allegations that American troops routinely committed horrendous war crimes in Vietnam, while offering little if any proof to back up their charges.

Mr. Lembcke's article is merely a rehash of the same claim he has made for years; that he has been unable to confirm any spitting incidents in his own research. Without any information on his background and political bias, one might easily mistake this contention for a dispassionate, scholarly opinion.

In his 1990 book, Homecoming, Chicago Tribune writer Bob Greene documented several dozen spitting events, and found no reason to suspect they were untrue. Other accounts abound, reported by stable, honest men who have no reason to lie. But alas, Mr. Lembcke finds all these accounts unpersuasive.

I have a personal friend who had acid thrown in his face by an antiwar demonstrator while serving in the U.S. Army during a protest in San Francisco. His recollection of the event cannot be explained away with psychobabble terms such as "gendered subtext" or "failure of masculinity." There are legal records: his attacker was charged and convicted of assault.

The truth is that many Vietnam veterans did return home to be greeted with contempt and abuse, and a number report having been physically spat upon. Considering Mr. Lembcke's history of political extremism, there is little reason to take his word over theirs. It seems much more likely that his real purpose is to cast doubt on the dismal treatment of America’s Vietnam veterans that he himself helped bring about.

Scott Swett, Executive Director
Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation

http://www.vietnamlegacy.org

1 posted on 05/01/2005 8:53:51 PM PDT by CHARLITE
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To: CHARLITE

Great letter.


2 posted on 05/01/2005 8:57:26 PM PDT by No Longer Free State (Standing in the way of progress is not a party platform)
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To: CHARLITE

Oh. And that urban myth about Jane Fonda sitting atop a Viet Cong anti-aircraft gun? False. Pure myth. Never happened.


3 posted on 05/01/2005 8:58:40 PM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Leftists would have no standards at all)
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To: CHARLITE
Individuals don't usually run to the newspapers to say "Hey, write a story about me, I just got spit on."

I guess this same guy would say there were never back alley abortions because they weren't reported in the papers (except when the women died). And blacks were never spit on because each time it happened, someone didn't go running to the Boston Globe to tell them about it.

I'm sure the Globe would have put every spit-on Vet story on their front page. Yeah. Sure.

4 posted on 05/01/2005 8:59:18 PM PDT by Darkwolf (Jean Shepherd audio: http://www.flicklives.com/Mass_Back/mass_back.htm)
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To: CHARLITE
Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity.

No it is the Globe that Lacks credulity. It is the poor step child of the NYT trying to get the Step parent's approval and as such will attempt anything for that approval. Even trot out a tired old tale and try to sell it as the truth.

5 posted on 05/01/2005 9:02:04 PM PDT by AZHua87 (Insurgent BloggerVet!)
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To: CHARLITE
For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.

That only illustrates how sloppy his research is. There were plenty of claims and news reports about it. Plenty. Anyone who lived through that time has to be aware of that. How old is this loser anyway?

6 posted on 05/01/2005 9:03:47 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: CHARLITE

Excellent response.


7 posted on 05/01/2005 9:04:15 PM PDT by Numbers Guy
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To: CHARLITE
Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity. GIs landed at military airbases, not civilian airports, and protesters could not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops.

Utter and complete BS right there. The vast majority of troops arrived via chartered civilian aircraft, and landed at civilian airports. From there, they made connections on other civilian airlines. Just like today.

The only difference today is that returning troops at least get a round of applause when deplaning. Any spitters would be quickly handled by patriotic citizens and airport cops.

8 posted on 05/01/2005 9:04:41 PM PDT by 300winmag (FR's Hobbit Hole supports America's troops)
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To: Howlin; eddie willers; cajungirl; wirestripper; Southflanknorthpawsis; Peach; prairiebreeze; ...
Five bucks says they never print it.
9 posted on 05/01/2005 9:09:14 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: CHARLITE

This article is a "spit in the face" to every soldier who served in Vietnam.


10 posted on 05/01/2005 9:11:21 PM PDT by Peace will be here soon
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To: Interesting Times
I'll take that bet - at 20:1 odds.

Great letter.

TS

11 posted on 05/01/2005 9:11:36 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.swiftvets.com & www.wintersoldier.com - The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: The Shrew
Thanks.

Uh, 20-to-1 which way?

12 posted on 05/01/2005 9:15:27 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: CHARLITE
What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam.

Funny, I was hearing stories of it before I even left Viet Nam in early 1971.

As I've said over on SVPT, it's strikes me as very odd how these people will blindly accept sKerry's words of war crimes and atrocities committed in Viet Nam, even after Naval Intelligence performed an in depth investigation, ordered by Congress and offering those winter soldiers of sKerry's amnesty and not one would back up, support, or show any proof or documentation of their claims.

Now, in an effort to heap further garbage on the backs of Viet Nam Veterans, they demand documentation and police reports of us being spit on.

I hate to tell the editors at the Boston Globe, but the spitting wasn't always a literal spitting upon. Having someone sit next to you with their small child, visiting with you and playing games with the child, while on a flight from Seattle to St. Louis to change planes, having her realize you were in the Army, after landing and putting on my Army Greens Jacket, then snatch her daughter away while yelling get away from that killer is just as hurtful as being physically spat upon, if not more so.

13 posted on 05/01/2005 9:20:24 PM PDT by DakotaRed
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To: CHARLITE

I once knew a Marine in 1968 who was standing on a corner in Anaheim, CA who was on his way to Disneyland on a weekend liberty before being shipped off to Viet Nam.

While the Marine was standing on the corner with others waiting for the traffic light to change so they could cross the street, a car came by and was slowing down to make a right turn right in front of the Marine and others.

As the car slowed down, a young man leaned out of the window and spat at the Marine.

I know this story is true because I was that Marine.

Semper Fi,
Kelly


14 posted on 05/01/2005 9:22:59 PM PDT by kellynla (U.S.M.C. 1st Battalion,5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Div. Viet Nam 69&70 Semper Fi)
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To: CHARLITE
When I came back,we landed at Seattle Tocoma Airport.It was not a military base.We were cursed at by a small group(10 or so) and one guy got soda splashed on him by a really skanky looking hippie girl.

Some of us flew on to Chicago and landed at OHare (again,not a military base)where there was a larger group of protesters.This group had some spitters,but they mostly just cussed us.

From there,3 of us flew to our final stop at Norfolk Regional Airport(not military).There were no protesters,the three of us said our goodbyes and hustled off to meet our families who we could see were waiting for us.

The writer is a liar.

15 posted on 05/01/2005 9:24:18 PM PDT by smoothsailing (Qui Nhon Turtle Co.)
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To: Interesting Times
If they print it I get $100.00.

If they don't print it you get $5.00.

;-)

Regards,

TS

16 posted on 05/01/2005 9:24:51 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.swiftvets.com & www.wintersoldier.com - The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: CHARLITE

I'll offer this: In early May 1969 I flew into Travis AFB. While moving through SFO, and in uniform, I was spat at. None of the spittle landed on me although it did hit some of those next to me.

I will testify, under oath, that this event happened.



17 posted on 05/01/2005 9:25:45 PM PDT by ponsdorf (different strokes for different folks)
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To: 300winmag

In 1972, I remember landing in Oakland and then catching a flight home to Phoenix from San Francisco airport. These weren't military bases. It was on that flight from San Francisco where a young hippie couple decided to humiliate me because I was required by regulation to wear my uniform when traveling. But hey, what do I know? I'm only a veteran not a brilliant Leftwing journalist trying to impress my boss with my anti-American/anti-military psychobabble.


18 posted on 05/01/2005 9:25:56 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (We did not lose in Vietnam. We left.)
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To: CHARLITE

Thanks for posting this. I have a friend who was in the Air Force as an undergraduate pilot, just out of college, attending pilot training at Williams AFB in Chandler, AZ. He's told me several times about having to be careful when they went into town (Phoenix)-- especially near the University of Arizona. They liked hanging out around the area because of the young women-- but many times they'd be shouted at (such as called "baby killers" by activist students) or otherwise harassed, including spitting, as they were identified as GI's by their short hair and military pass stickers on their car.

Meanwhile some of their fellow pilots were being shot down in Vietnam, and held by their captors in the infamous "Hanoi Hilton", as Hanoi Jane openly sided with the communists and ridiculed their claims of harsh treatment.


19 posted on 05/01/2005 9:26:23 PM PDT by zipper ("The fear of God makes heroes, the fear of man makes cowards."-- Sgt Alvin C. York)
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To: CHARLITE

This is just more of the Boston Globe's way of preparing for the campaign of Kerry.


20 posted on 05/01/2005 9:27:55 PM PDT by CyberAnt (President Bush: "America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth")
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To: The Shrew; writer33; Nam Vet; CBart95; Wudan Master; Beth528
"Great letter."

It really is such a great letter. I worked with Scott Swett and his veterans against Kerry group throughout the campaign. He's a great man. He emailed a copy of the letter to Bruce Kesler, whom some of you know. Bruce forwarded it to me, and I was very glad to have it to post right under this "zotable" Globe article. It's a terrific reply to Lembcke's whitewashing piece.

Incidentally, he said the same thing on his email to Bruce. "I'm not holding my breath that the Globe will ever print this," he said.

21 posted on 05/01/2005 9:36:05 PM PDT by CHARLITE ("People are not old, until regrets take the place of their dreams." - John Barrymore)
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To: Interesting Times; CHARLITE; MeekOneGOP; Grampa Dave; BOBTHENAILER; devolve; potlatch; ntnychik; ...

Hanoi Jane and Hanoi John slandered the thousands of U.S. servicemen who served in Vietnam as war criminals, rapists, murderers.

They are responsible for the spitting--they created the propaganda which motivated it.

They should be in Leavenworth for treason, as they actively gave aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war.

Comrade Lemke is recommended reading on the CPUSA site.

22 posted on 05/01/2005 9:38:27 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: CHARLITE

I dunno, I always wondered about those stories. Spitting on a young, fit, fighting male sounds like more courage than leftists generally display.


23 posted on 05/01/2005 9:47:45 PM PDT by Plutarch
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To: PhilDragoo
"They created the propaganda which motivated it."

Exactly. Well said, Phil. Not enough emphasis is placed upon this irrefutable truth. Jane Fonda, John Kerry and the VVAW group which included the author of this denial piece with the help of Uncle Walter at CBS all set up the climate for the abuse of our veterans when they returned from their nobel, heroic and thankless tours of duty.

Swiftie Kerry ran over there, trained out of harm's way for the first month, so actually only saw 90 days of "real" duty, and from what I've learned, he ran away from trouble whenever he had a chance. The only time he presumably pursued the "enemy" was that one incident when an already severely wounded teenager was fleeing Kerry and our triple Purple Heart winner shot the kid in the back.

I'm sure that nobody spat upon John False Kerry upon his triumphant return to the States.

24 posted on 05/01/2005 9:49:02 PM PDT by CHARLITE ("People are not old, until regrets take the place of their dreams." - John Barrymore)
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To: LibWhacker

Correct.

The libs did lots of things, including telling my me and my elders sisters that my dad (USAF Vietnam) was shot down.

I have a VERY personal recollection of this event.

Also, as a Gulf War vet (me), coming back to college in Boston --- while I did not get spit on, I certainly got things like "Gee, you don't seem like you enjoy killing babies," doors that close suddenly, dirty looks, etc.

Liberals. So tolerant.


25 posted on 05/01/2005 9:49:55 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan
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To: kellynla

Thank you for your service, Kelly. from a VietNam-Era vet.


26 posted on 05/01/2005 9:51:38 PM PDT by de Buillion (God bless John Moses Browning and the NRA)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Interesting Times

Bump!


28 posted on 05/01/2005 9:53:26 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: The Shrew
If they print it I get $100.00.

If they don't print it you get $5.00.

Well, okay.

Where do you plan to get the $100?

29 posted on 05/01/2005 10:01:37 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Plutarch
I dunno, I always wondered about those stories. Spitting on a young, fit, fighting male sounds like more courage than leftists generally display.

IMHO your doubts are unfounded. The Servicemembers involved were under strict orders not to retaliate - especially while in uniform. The Pentagon was so cowed by the anti-war protestors and their allies in the MSM that no fight - no matter how justified - would have been portrayed in a fair manner.

As recounted in the letter above the documentation of "spitting" incidents is legion. Including the testimony of members of this forum.

It is like taunting a tiger in the zoo. The bars that prevented retaliation were the discipline that the soldier/sailor/airmen/Marine had inculcated in their training. By not fighting back against the smelly hippy he kept faith with his brothers-in-arms still in harms way.

Regards,

TS

30 posted on 05/01/2005 10:02:00 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.swiftvets.com & www.wintersoldier.com - The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: Interesting Times
From our bet!

It's a win-win. If the Boston rag prints your outstanding letter you win. IF they print the letter I get $100 bucks from you and I win!

If they don't print the letter you still get $5.00.

What could be better?

;-)

TS

31 posted on 05/01/2005 10:04:25 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.swiftvets.com & www.wintersoldier.com - The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: Interesting Times
Five bucks says they never print it.

Excellent letter. Thank you. I will happily pay you the five bucks if they print it.

32 posted on 05/01/2005 10:04:30 PM PDT by zot (GWB -- four more years!)
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To: zot; Interesting Times
See, now you're only out $95.00 bucks! It's getting better all the time!

Outstanding!

TS

33 posted on 05/01/2005 10:05:49 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.swiftvets.com & www.wintersoldier.com - The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: CHARLITE

I think I would have preferred being spit on. At least I would have had a throat to wrap my hands around. Far worse than spitting was the assumption we were somehow damaged goods, had committed routine war crimes, and the unwillingness to treat any of us as normal men, home from a war and wanting to get on with our lives.


34 posted on 05/01/2005 10:07:30 PM PDT by Casloy
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To: The Shrew; zot
See, now you're only out $95.00 bucks! It's getting better all the time!

Now I'm confused. I thought I was betting they wouldn't print it.

35 posted on 05/01/2005 10:10:04 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: CHARLITE

The Boston Globe? Isn't that the paper that stoked the fires of hate against US citizens and military when they published discredited "prison abuse" photos AFTER THE FACT that were sourced from an internet porn website?


36 posted on 05/01/2005 10:11:50 PM PDT by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: Interesting Times
Now I'm confused. I thought I was betting they wouldn't print it.

Can you tell I was a dim in a former life?

I hope they do print the letter!

Z

37 posted on 05/01/2005 10:12:13 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.swiftvets.com & www.wintersoldier.com - The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: Darkwolf

There weren't back alley abortions. Who went into an alley for such a procedure? They were conducted in offices without disclosing the procedures to the public.


38 posted on 05/01/2005 10:13:35 PM PDT by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: Interesting Times; The Shrew
Excellent letter. Thank you. I will happily pay you the five bucks if they print it.

Revised wager -- I'll pay you a hundred bucks if they print it, so you can pay off The Shrew.

39 posted on 05/01/2005 10:13:51 PM PDT by zot (GWB -- four more years!)
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To: Texas Eagle

You mean that picture of her sitting on the gun thats the front cover of her new book?


40 posted on 05/01/2005 10:15:37 PM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
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To: Interesting Times
Five bucks says they never print it.

I am a Boston Globe subscriber and sometime gadfly (the ombudsman and I exchanged emails several times). I've yet to get a Letter printed, but I have a notion of what kind of conservative-leaning letters they will print. They might print that letter edited, but they won't print the part that impugns Mr. Lembcke. They institutionally believe Lembcke has the right to the phrase "associate professor of sociology and author." A book endorsement from the Communist Party USA of his book makes him an unworthy radical Marxist activist? That won't be printed.

41 posted on 05/01/2005 10:17:29 PM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: AZHua87

The Boston Globe, USA Ptooey, NY Slimes, LA Slimes, Chicago Tribune, 60 Minutes, BBC, Guardian, and CNN have all been caught making up news stories.

I don't want to see another Walter Cronkite "most trusted man in America". All journalists should first and foremost tell the TRUTH. That is their job. Pushing their ideology should always come second.

While we would like politicians to be brutally honest in all situations, it will not happen as they have a motive to push for their position on the issues. The same could be said of any lawyer. Defend your position. Hard to win a debate if you keep conceding points.

News is supposed to be impartial. That is what editorials (and idiotorials) are for.


42 posted on 05/01/2005 10:17:36 PM PDT by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: CHARLITE

I was spit on for having a BUSH sticker on my walkman, so why does this moron find this so incredible? The revisionsim of the Vietnam era continues--all those peace-loving hippies probably didn't set fires and trash school and government property, either, right?


43 posted on 05/01/2005 10:18:35 PM PDT by Darkwolf (Jean Shepherd audio: http://www.flicklives.com/Mass_Back/mass_back.htm)
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To: weegee
They were conducted in offices without disclosing the procedures to the public.

SO, have you seen any disclosures from Planned Parenthood about their procedures, rates of asceptic abortions, deaths, transfers to hospitals of patients, etc?

Just wondering what the difference is?

Regards,

TS

44 posted on 05/01/2005 10:18:47 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.swiftvets.com & www.wintersoldier.com - The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: zot; The Shrew
Revised wager -- I'll pay you a hundred bucks if they print it, so you can pay off The Shrew.

Suddenly I'm 17 years old again, standing before a rickety booth at a beach-front carnival. The nice man is telling me about his numbers game, which is both simple and easy to win...

But enough free association. There is a web site that must be written.

Ta ta for now...

45 posted on 05/01/2005 10:19:02 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Americanexpat

probably the result of the same prankster who fabricated the images of her with John Kerry at the commie antiwar protest. < /sarcasm >


46 posted on 05/01/2005 10:19:06 PM PDT by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: The Shrew
There is no difference except when it comes to the act of murder itself.

Women are still going home and dying of internal hemorrhaging.
47 posted on 05/01/2005 10:20:22 PM PDT by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: NutCrackerBoy
A book endorsement from the Communist Party USA of his book makes him an unworthy radical Marxist activist? That won't be printed.

It isn't limited to a book endorsement. It's the guy's whole career...

48 posted on 05/01/2005 10:20:36 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: The Shrew

"Legality" of the act of murder.


49 posted on 05/01/2005 10:20:47 PM PDT by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: Darkwolf

They didn't blow up police cars or plot the assassination of congressmen who supported the war either.


50 posted on 05/01/2005 10:21:42 PM PDT by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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