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The national sales tax (Why the NRST is dopey)
Town Hall ^ | May 3, 2005 | Bruce Bartlett

Posted on 05/03/2005 3:16:24 AM PDT by RobFromGa

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To: groanup
How is a tax on income contstitutional?

If the 16th Amendment was repealed the income tax would not be constitutional. But since a tax on services is a tax on one's fruit of labor, it would also be unconstitutional. A sales tax on services is really a tax on income, it just taxes gross receipts instead of net.

401 posted on 05/08/2005 8:05:09 PM PDT by Always Right
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To: groanup
My biggest gripe with Fair Taxers is they always oversell their case.

Your biggest gripe is that the fair tax taxes new homes.

LOL....OK, you got me there. It is my second biggest gripe.

402 posted on 05/08/2005 8:06:55 PM PDT by Always Right
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To: Always Right

And how is a tax on services Constiutional????

Why should an excise tax laid on the consumer of services provided by a business be any less constitutional than other enterprise that a business may engage in?

That is a question well settled long before the 16th amendment ever came around.

LICENSE TAX CASES, 72 U.S. 462 (1866)

Furthermore, the legal incidence of a federal tax laid with regard to the individual under the Constititution was one of the basic factors of why the constitution was even proposed.

A facit of the reach of the Constitution that both sides of the debate agreed existed:

James Madison, Federalist #39:

 

Anti-Federalist Papers #3 NEW CONSTITUTION CREATES A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT;

There are but two modes by which men are connected in society, the one which operates on individuals, this always has been, and ought still to be called, national government; the other which binds States and governments together (not corporations, for there is no considerable nation on earth, despotic, monarchical, or republican, that does not contain many subordinate corporations with various constitutions) this last has heretofore been denominated a league or confederacy. The term federalists is therefore improperly applied to themselves, by the friends and supporters of the proposed constitution.

 

If the 16th Amendment should be repealed, a tax on services would be as unconstutional as a tax on income.

LOL, a tax on even wage income has never been considered unconstitutional before or after the 16th amendment.

Before ratification of the 16th Amendment:

Hylton v. United States(1796), 3 U.S. 171

  • "A general power is given to Congress, to lay and collect taxes, of every kind or nature, without any restraint, except only on exports; but two rules are prescribed for their government, namely, uniformity and apportionment: Three kinds of taxes, to wit, duties, imposts, and excises by the first rule, and capitation, or other direct taxes, by the second rule. "
  • "the present Constitution was particularly intended to affect individuals, and not states, except in particular cases specified: And this is the leading distinction between the articles of Confederation and the present Constitution."
  • "Uniformity is an instant operation on individuals, without the intervention of assessments, or any regard to states,"
  • "[T]he DIRECT TAXES contemplated by the Constitution, are only two, to wit, A CAPITATION OR POLL TAX, simply, without regard to property, profession, or any other circumstance; and a tax on LAND."
  •  

    Pollock v. Farmers' Loan and Trust Company, 157 U.S. 429 (1895)

    POLLOCK v. FARMERS' LOAN & TRUST CO., 158 U.S. 601 (1895):

     


     

    After ratification of the 16th amendment:

     

    Stratton's Independence, LTD. v. Howbert(1913), 231 U.S. 399:

    BRUSHABER v. UNION PACIFIC R. CO., 240 U.S. 1 (1916)

    Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co.(1916), 240 U.S. 103:

     

    Lucas v. Earl(1930), 281 U.S. 111:

     

    Charles C. Stewart Machine Co. v. Davis (1937), 301 U.S. 548:


    403 posted on 05/08/2005 8:22:36 PM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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    To: Always Right
    And make no mistake, that's what the Fairtax is ~really~ about, -- repeal of the unlimited, unconstitutional power to tax given in the 16th Amendment.

    My biggest gripe with Fair Taxers is they always oversell their case.

    How can you "oversell" a proposed scheme? It's still up for changes & approval.

    Where are the limits on the fair tax????

    An Amendment could limit the taxing power. What do you propose?

    And how is a tax on services Constiutional????

    Make your case that they are unconstitutional. Be refreshing to see a valid argument around here for a change.

    If the 16th Amendment should be repealed, a tax on services would be as unconstutional as a tax on income.

    On what basis? Convince me, as I would certainly like that to be the case, being a building contractor.

    404 posted on 05/08/2005 8:25:58 PM PDT by P_A_I
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    To: P_A_I; Always Right
    How does the fairtax "end the current social security/welfare mess we're in" exactly P?
    The exact details are in the bill, cited many times on these threads, which you admit reading.

    I've read that same line too many times to count. Is that the official AFT response/talking point?

    AFT-FAQ #7----- How is the Social Security system affected?

    Like all federal spending programs, Social Security operates exactly as it does today, except that its funds come from a broad, progressive sales tax, rather than a narrow, regressive payroll tax. Employers will continue to report wages for each employee, though, to the Social Security Administration for the determination of benefits. The transition to a reformed Social Security system will be eased while ensuring there is sufficient funding to continue promised benefits.

    Meanwhile, Social Security/Medicare funds will no longer be triple-taxed as they are now: 1) when payroll taxes are initially withheld; 2) when those withheld payroll taxes are counted as part of the taxable base for income tax purposes; and 3) when the promised benefits are finally received.

    #8 ---How does the FairTax affect Social Security reform?

    FairTax.org is a one-issue organization: Tax replacement. However, its proposal does benefit any Social Security reform proposal. The FairTax.org plan does not change Social Security benefits or the structure of the Social Security system. All it does is replace the current revenue source (narrow, regressive payroll taxes) with a new revenue source (broad, progressive sales taxes paid by all consumers).

    Additionally, research shows that consumption is a more stable revenue source than income. If Social Security is reformed or privatized in a way that reduces the government’s need for revenue, then the FairTax rate can be reduced. For example, if a mandatory private savings program is implemented where people must save 10 percent of their income and Social Security benefits are curtailed, then the FairTax rate can be reduced just as payroll taxes would be reduced.

    A simple concept, yet YOU can't grasp it.

    So where are those "exact details" again?

    What is it about the Fairtax that attracts so many disingenuous frauds?

    405 posted on 05/08/2005 8:28:05 PM PDT by lewislynn (My other car is an XC90 T6 AWD....)
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    To: lewislynn
    How does the fairtax "end the current social security/welfare mess we're in" exactly

    The exact details are in the bill, cited many times on these threads, which you admit reading. [And, - just posted below.]

    AFT-FAQ #7----- How is the Social Security system affected?
    Like all federal spending programs, Social Security operates exactly as it does today, except that its funds come from a broad, progressive sales tax, rather than a narrow, regressive payroll tax.

    Specific enough, lew? The proposed plan ends the income tax/ss withholding mess, and replaces it with a sales tax scheme.

    So where are those "exact details" again?

    In front of your nose lew, -- you just posted them but still refuse to admit that they are quite specific.

    406 posted on 05/08/2005 8:51:21 PM PDT by P_A_I
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    To: ancient_geezer
    LOL, a tax on even wage income has never been considered unconstitutional before or after the 16th amendment.

    Then why was the 16th Amendment needed???? Because income tax was considered a direct tax and had to be apportioned. That requirement made it impossible to actually tax income, thus Pollock vs. Farmer's overturned the tax. That is why we had to have the 16th Amendment and if repealed would make taxing services provided by individuals a direct tax that has to be apportioned.

    407 posted on 05/08/2005 8:56:12 PM PDT by Always Right
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    To: Always Right
    -- why was the 16th Amendment needed???? Because income tax was considered a direct tax and had to be apportioned. That requirement made it impossible to actually tax income, thus Pollock vs. Farmer's overturned the tax. That is why we had to have the 16th Amendment and if repealed would make taxing services provided by individuals a direct tax that has to be apportioned.

    Does this mean that you would support the FairTax idea if taxing services provided by individuals was not included?
    -- Sounds OK to me, -- welcome aboard..

    408 posted on 05/08/2005 9:09:24 PM PDT by P_A_I
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    To: Always Right
    Then why was the 16th Amendment needed???? Because income tax was considered a direct tax and had to be apportioned.

    LOL, Wrong answer. At least the rationale put forward by the Pollock court was that rents of real property were afruit of that property and an appertenance to that property such that taxing rent was the equivalent of taxing property solely because of its ownership thus a direct tax that must be apportioned as a direct tax thus that portion of the income tax law that dealt with returns form property real or personal were to be regarded as under the classification of direct taxes.

    The specific income tax law struck down by Pollock was not found to be unconstitutional because of taxes on wages or occupations (in fact the Pollock court supported such excises as classed as indirect taxes) It was found to be unconstitutional for its provisions that taxed earnings from real property, stocks and bonds merely because of ownership of property, real or personal!!!

     

    BROMLEY v. MCCAUGHN, 280 U.S. 124,136 (1929)

    Hylton v. United States(1796), 3 U.S. 171

  • "A general power is given to Congress, to lay and collect taxes, of every kind or nature, without any restraint, except only on exports; but two rules are prescribed for their government, namely, uniformity and apportionment: Three kinds of taxes, to wit, duties, imposts, and excises by the first rule, and capitation, or other direct taxes, by the second rule. "
  • "the present Constitution was particularly intended to affect individuals, and not states, except in particular cases specified: And this is the leading distinction between the articles of Confederation and the present Constitution."
  • "Uniformity is an instant operation on individuals, without the intervention of assessments, or any regard to states,"
  • "[T]he DIRECT TAXES contemplated by the Constitution, are only two, to wit, A CAPITATION OR POLL TAX, simply, without regard to property, profession, or any other circumstance; and a tax on LAND."
  •  

    BROMLEY v. MCCAUGHN, 280 U.S. 124,136 (1929)

     

    Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #21:

     


     

    But the more likely answer, and the one that fits the facts best as to why the 16th amendment was even proposed was that it was a political gambit to interfere with the enactment of a proposed income tax bill that backfired very badly:

     

    The Bailey Bill

    In April 1909, Senator Joseph W. Bailey, a conservative Democrat from Texas who was also opposed to income taxes, decided to further embarrass the Republicans by forcing them to openly oppose an income tax bill similar to those which had been introduced in the past. He introduced his bill expecting it to get the usual opposition. However, to his amazement, Teddy Roosevelt and a growing element of liberals in the Republican party came out in favor of the bill and it looked as though it was going to pass.

    Not only was Bailey surprised, but Senator Nelson W. Aldrich of Rhode Island, the Republican floor leader, frantically met with Senator Henry Cabot Lodge of Massachussetts and President Taft to work out a strategy to demolish the Bailey tax bill. Their own party was split too widely to permit a direct confrontation, so the strategy was to pull a political end run. They announced that they favored an income tax but only if it were an amendment to the Constitution. Within their own circle, they discussed how it might get approval of the House and the Senate, but they were quite certain that it could be defeated in the more conservative states-three-fourths of which were required in order to ratify the amendment.

    Thus, the Democrats were off guard when President Taft unexpectedly sent a message to Congress on June 16th, 1909, recommending the passage of a consitutional amendment to legalize federal income tax legislation.

    The strategy threw the liberals into an uproar. At the very moment when their Bailey bill was about to pass, the Republicans were coming out for an amendment to the Constitution which would probably be defeated by the states.

    Reaction to the Amendment

    Congressman Cordell Hull (D-Tenn., and later Secretary of State under FDR) saw exactly what was happening. He took the floor to excoriate the Republican leaders. Said he:

    "No person at all familiar with the present trend of national legislation will seriously insist that these same Republican leaders are over-anxious to see the country adopt an income tax...What powerful influence, what new light and deepseated motive suddenly moves these political veterans to 'about face' and pretend to warmly embrace this doctrine which they have heretofore uniformly denounced?" {1}

    He went on to expose what he considered to be a political trick. He needn't have been so concerned. The slogan of "soak the rich" automatically aroused Pavlovian salivation among politicians both in Washington and the states. The Senate approved the Sixteenth Amendment with an astonishing unanimity of 77-0! The House approved it by a vote of 318-14.

    When Republican Congressman Sereno E. Payne of New York, who had introduced the amendment in the House, saw that this end run was turning into a winning touchdown for the opposition, he was horrified. He went to the floor and openly denounced the bill he had sponsored. Said he:

    "As to the general policy of an income tax, I am utterly opposed to it. I believe with Gladstone that it tends to make a nation of liars. I believe it is the most easily concealed of any tax that can be laid, the most difficult of enforcement, and the hardest to collect; that it is, in a word, a tax upon the income of honest men and an exemption, to a greater or lesser extent, of the income of rascals; and so I am opposed to any income tax in time of peace...I hope that if the Constitution is amended in this way the time will not come when the American people will ever want to enact an income tax except in time of war." {2}

    The end run of the Republican leadership did indeed backfire. State after state ratified this "soak the rich" amendment until it went into full force and effect on February 12, 1913


    409 posted on 05/08/2005 9:44:34 PM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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    To: Always Right; P_A_I

    That requirement made it impossible to actually tax income, thus Pollock vs. Farmer's overturned the tax.

    Baloney, as the Pollock decision did nothing to prevent the taxation of wages, in fact the Pollock Court made it very clear that excises on business, privileges, or employments were not included within its consideration of the issue at all. In fact expressly sustained there status as allowed excises:

     

    POLLOCK v. FARMERS' LOAN & TRUST CO., 158 U.S. 601 (1895):

    Which what was complained of in the dissent!!!

     

    Mr. Justice WHITE, dissenting.

    16. The injustice of the conclusion points to the error of adopting it. It takes invested wealth, and reads it into the constitution as a favored and protected class of property, which cannot be taxed without apportionment, while it leaves the occupation of the minister, the doctor, the professor, the lawyer, the inventor, the author, the merchant, the mechanic, and all other forms of industry upon which the prosperity of a people must depend, subject to taxation without that condition.


    410 posted on 05/08/2005 9:53:37 PM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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    To: ancient_geezer

    All I can figure out from all this is there was never any Supreme Court ruling on the issue of whether tax on the income from one's labor would be direct or indirect. A handful of cases mentioned it, but the actual issue was never before the court. If income tax on labor was considered an indirect tax, the 16th Amendment had little to no effect. Politicians seemed to assume for our first 130 years that an income tax was a direct tax and did not pass an income tax under after the 16th Amendment was ratified. The logic of Pollock escapes me. If taxes on the income from owning Real Estate is a direct tax, how can they even imply that taxes on one's labor might be an indirect tax. But Pollock does make it clear, they were not ruling on that issue.


    411 posted on 05/09/2005 5:13:48 AM PDT by Always Right
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    To: Always Right

    All I can figure out from all this is there was never any Supreme Court ruling on the issue of whether tax on the income from one's labor would be direct or indirect.

    Prior the ruling of Pollock as regards rents & returns from investment property, Springer encompassed all income without regard to source of it, including wages.

    Springer v. United States(1880), 102 U.S. 586

  • "The central and controlling question in this case is whether the tax which was levied on the income, gains, and profits of the plaintiff in error, as set forth in the record, and by pretended virtue of the acts of Congress and parts of acts therein mentioned, is a direct tax."
  • "Our conclusions are, that direct taxes, within the meaning of the Constitution, are only capitation taxes, as expressed in that instrument, and taxes on real estate; and that the tax of which the plaintiff in error complains is within the category of an excise or duty."
  • "[W]henever the government has imposed a tax which it recognized as a direct tax, it has never been applied to any objects but real estate and slaves."
  • And at that time, income and more particularly gain and profit had specific meaning in law that was inclusive of proceeds derived from one's labor:

    A LAW DICTIONARY
    by John Bouvier, Revised Sixth Edition, 1856:

    INCOME.
    The gain which proceeds from property, labor, or business; it is applied particularly to individuals; the income of the government is usually called revenue.

    A LAW DICTIONARY
    by John Bouvier, Revised Sixth Edition, 1856:

    GAIN.
    The word is used as synonymous with profits.

    A LAW DICTIONARY
    by John Bouvier, Revised Sixth Edition, 1856:

    PROFITS.
    In general, by this term is understood the benefit which a man derives from a thing. It is more particularly applied to such benefit as arises from his labor and skill

     

    A definition carried on into current law:

    Stratton's Independence, LTD. v. Howbert(1913), 231 U.S. 399:

     

    FindLaw: HELVERING v. BLISS, 293 U.S. 144 (1934)

    Eisner v. Macomber(1920), 252 U.S. 189,207
    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=252&invol=189#207

    As well as its continued common usage of the term "income":

    Merriam-Webster's Collegiate® Dictionary © 2000

    Main Entry: in·come
    Pronunciation: 'in-"k&m also 'in-k&m or 'i[ng]-k&m
    Function: noun
    Date: 14th century
    1 : a coming in : , <fluctuations in the nutrient income of a body of water>
    2 : a gain or recurrent benefit usually measured in money that derives from capital or labor; also : the amount of such gain received in a period of time <has an income of $20,000 a year>

    Politicians seemed to assume for our first 130 years that an income tax was a direct tax and did not pass an income tax under after the 16th Amendment was ratified.

    Politicians assume and say many things, often wrongly, especially when it gives them cover for what they do and just happens to conform to what people in general believe about a thing, why correct the public's mistaken beliefs about something when it serves as well or better to let them continue thinking that way.

    As far as an income tax being enacted, Flint made it clear that income taxes on income from the conduct of any business was considered constitutional before the 16th and after Pollock.

    Flint v. Stone Tracy Co.(1911), 220 U.S. 107

    If income tax on labor was considered an indirect tax, the 16th Amendment had little to no effect.

    In that the U.S. Supreme Court agrees with you.

    Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co.(1916), 240 U.S. 103:

     

    The logic of Pollock escapes me. If taxes on the income from owning Real Estate is a direct tax, how can they even imply that taxes on one's labor might be an indirect tax

    Actually Pollock was an aberation of a specific Supreme Court not following precident rulings in prior cases and the usage of the term as it was regard by the authors of the Constitution. It was the exception of its day, the same as Roe is an exception today.

    In fact going as far back as the War of 1812, an income tax was under proposal to help finance that war, fortunately for the folks of that time as the War ended before they actually got to the point of enacting it.

    The reality is, until Pollock, only taxes laid on land and slaves (i.e. property per-se) were considered direct!! And all income regardless of the source or how it was come by was considered fair game.

    Springer v. United States(1880), 102 U.S. 586

  • "The central and controlling question in this case is whether the tax which was levied on the income, gains, and profits of the plaintiff in error, as set forth in the record, and by pretended virtue of the acts of Congress and parts of acts therein mentioned, is a direct tax."
  • "Our conclusions are, that direct taxes, within the meaning of the Constitution, are only capitation taxes, as expressed in that instrument, and taxes on real estate; and that the tax of which the plaintiff in error complains is within the category of an excise or duty."
  • "[W]henever the government has imposed a tax which it recognized as a direct tax, it has never been applied to any objects but real estate and slaves."
  • "If the laws here in question involved any wrong or unnecessary harshness, it was for Congress, or the people who make congresses, to see that the evil was corrected.
    The remedy does not lie with the judicial branch of the government."
  • Pollock merely attempted to carve out an exception for earnings from invested capital and rents in its attempt to negate what was long settled law as regards the nature of what constituted a direct tax.

    The problem is that people mistake an income tax to be a tax upon the money the receive for what they do. As Flint pointed out, the money received merely sets the value of the endevour engaged in, and is not what the tax is actually laid on. Indirect taxes are laid upon exchanges or activity such as are the basis of commerce, the amount of the tax merely measured by the value of the activity engaged in.

    Flint v. Stone Tracy Co.(1911), 220 U.S. 107

    KNOWLTON v. MOORE, 178 U.S. 41 (1900)

    Tyler v. U.S. 281 U.S. 497, 502 (1930)

     

    House Congressional Record, March 27, 1943, pg. 2580:


    412 posted on 05/09/2005 9:19:50 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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    To: Always Right
    As a postscript, the above analysis is why merely repealing the 16th amendment will not be enough to get rid of the potential for income taxes forever.

    Any amendment that has a hope of removing taxation in regard to income must, of necessity, include specific air tight language that actually prohibits the use of income as a measure for taxation and utterly destroy the authority of Congress to levy any such tax.

    413 posted on 05/09/2005 9:31:43 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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    To: newgeezer; Final Authority

    A *crisis* will occur during the obligatory transition phase, and voila, two tax systems instead of one!!

    Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

    Laugh now, while you can.


    414 posted on 05/26/2005 9:26:46 PM PDT by hripka (There are a lot of smart people out there in FReeperLand)
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    To: hripka
    WRT 414, Precisely, as that has been my observation and argument for years to dissuade any actions which are intended to augment our system of taxation under the guise of "fairness". Fair is not a term of art and can not be defined thusly and should not be used or associated with taxation. Certain terms can be defined that are used with taxation and therefore should be applied but not 'fair".

    As I have written on these threads we will end up with a NRST and it may even have some of the features of the farttax but we will keep the IRS or a similar administrative unit and will certainly still have the income tax. Pure and simple, the government needs our money and more and more every day. We need $billions to pay for the cost of criminal aliens and GWB's desire to give them amnesty. We need your money to pay for the defense of Israel and we need to give several hundred million to the Palestinians to so they can afford the weaponry to kill the Israelis as the cost of killing has gone up lately. I think the homicidal/suicidal bombers must have unionized because I understand they cost much more these days.

    Just think, the sweat of your labor will be transfered to these fine folks so the killing will never cease.
    415 posted on 05/27/2005 7:10:49 AM PDT by Final Authority
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