Posted on 05/04/2005 3:40:19 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
When the Soviets invaded the Baltic States, the decision for many male Latvians, Estonians, and Lithuanians was a simple one---be once again under Russian control or join the Germany army and fight alongside them against Stalin and his troops.===
But what was german army on thier territories? If ther wasn't soviet army then german army will be same occupators.
DO you know that those latvians, estonians and lithvinians fought in rows of soviet army against german occupation of baltic states.
Surprised isn't it? BUT it is FACT that number of baltrics in rows of csoviet army was bigger then in german SS.
Interesting how do you think about SS troops? ARE they new "good guys" for you?
Gary if you claiming that nuking Japan was OK. Because Japan attacked USA. Then following your logic if Poland would had nukes at that time, we would have every right to nuke Soviet Union. Is that right? Please answer…
"Germans would have been the dominant privileged class and Eastern Europe would have been drained of resources to support Germany, but that's pretty much what the Soviet Russians did to Eastern Europe after they won instead."
If Hitler had won, there wouldn't be Russians, Poles, Czechs, etc either. They would be either exterminated, Germanized, or enslaved to serve Master Arian Race. As for Soviet Union draining resources of E.Europe. it's actually a bit other way around. Stalin and especially Brezhnev drained the resources of Soviet Union to prop up Soviet minions in E.Europe and around the world, subsidizing local Communist Parties, militaries, etc. It was a slave like system, and Stalin and Brezhnev drained resources of their own country (or Empire if you will) to spread this ugly system round the world.
FYI, the artificial famine in Soviet Ukraine 1932-1933 was happening when Soviet Union exported grain at record numbers while their own people were starving. Perverse regime.
Ok, so maybe they weren't slaves. They were merely oppressed.==
OK with that I agree.
BUT you see how far the modern political propaganda carries people. Step by step they changes definition, do pathetic accusation. Compete with each other how to "condemn" bad guys more blackier or more dramatic.
As result of process they lost the sense of reality and even offend those people which they try to defend. And made laugh of themselves.
In place of Poles I would be offended if someone call me a "slave". I don't think that any poles could be "slave".
L
Then following your logic if Poland would had nukes at that time, we would have every right to nuke Soviet Union. ==
This question is not to me but I'd like to answer.
YES Lucash if you had nukes then you has any right to answer on aggression with nukes.
BUT to nuke someone who didn't attack you and to kill many innocent civilians in country which didn't do you any wrong - you have to be second Adolf Hitler. The devil yourselves.
Garry Truman couldn't to become second "Adolf". I praise him for that.
To defende indefensible is simply self-defeating for Russia. Russian leadership and unfortunately a significant segment of Russian society still can't face the fact that Soviet Union played a very mixed role in World War II.
Collapse of the USSR and social and economic chaos that followed plus disillusionment in pseudo-Democratic post Communist leaders created a value vacuum in the Russian society. Understandably, Russian people want something in the past to feel proud about it, but eventually Russia has to come to terms with its past, including all the aspects of the Soviet Union role in WWII, to become a truly democratic, stable and healthy society.
Ivan, If it would depends of my decision I would not nuke your Moscow. This is not my taste. But Gary is funny because he using double standards. He also repeating so often that he is so good Christian…
Wrong. It is a joke, and you're crazy. This was covered adnauseum yesterday, and can't figure Tailgunner Joe re-listing the topic.
Russian leadership and unfortunately a significant segment of Russian society still can't face the fact that Soviet Union played a very mixed role in World War II. ==
Serge you are patetic again.
If you read article above you red the words of Sergey Ivanov about Soviet advance to E.Europe. He sounded like this: if you comdenm the role of SOviet Union in liberation of Europe then imagine what would be TODAY with same Europe if Stalin stopped on western border of USSR and signed with Hitler separate peace accord.
By his words he agree that the matter is controversual.
BUT think.
HOW the liberation of Europe continues if against anglo-americans would be against ALL german army: 3\4 of which was tied on Estern front. Imagine if those troops was moved to western front against anglo-american in teh middel of 1944?
HOW then allies would win Hitler without use nuclier weapon in center of Europe. Are poles for example ready to be fred from Hitler by nuclier explosion over Warsaw.
American one in year 1945-6 for example.
These questions are to be answered by those who "comdemn" Soviet Union for liberation of Europe.
You seem to be very much offended by the word "slave". OK, let's forget about slaves and masters. "Oppressed" is just as good. Discussion about definitions is useless and boring.
Take it easy, Ivan, I don't blame you of being a slave master or even an oppressor.
I do not "Condemn" the role of Soviet Union in WWII--I say there were very mixed role Soviet Union played in this War. See the difference ?
This is not my taste. But Gary is funny because he using double standards. ==
WHY double standards if he said already that you may answer agressor with all you have.
The discussion here is around question. If United States had to be aggressor aganst Soviet Union in 1945 and use nukes against russian towns. Without provocation and first place agression.
I'd say to do so Garry Truman has to be second "Adolf Hitler".
Tailgunner and some others tell that if you have nuke but someone else has not then you are save to nuke this country.
And you use the opportunity or you are "chicken".
(Adolf Hitler has same mentality.)
Take it easy, Ivan, I don't blame you of being a slave master or even an oppressor.==
Thank you very much. Let us go then bit further.
If I wasn't oppressor of anyone and my ansestors same way wasn't.
Then WHY on earth you are for nuclier bombing of Moscow "when United States had a chance to get away with it".
I'm absolutely not denying the crucial role the Soviet Armies played in destroying the Wermaht machine in 1941-1945. Nobody denies the Hitler Plans to annihilate or Germanize Non Arian Slavs and other "subhumans" in E. Europe in USSR.
But we must not overlook the facts what the ugly regimes were established by Stalin in the E.Europe after the WWII. We also can't forget that 1939-1941 USSR and Nazi Germany were tactical allies in carving E.Europe among themselves. We must look at ALL the facts--not just the facts we'd like to see. If you prefer not to see the entire truth, that's your choice. But don't expect me to follow you.
"my ansestors same way wasn't."
I haven't said that.
It is a good point in retrospect. If the Russians weren't fighting the Germans on the eastern front, who is to say that the whole war would not have been prolonged by a couple more years (since more eastern front troops would have been used on the western front), and taking that a step further...prolonging the war could have given Hitler the bomb first.
"nuclier bombing of Moscow"
I haven't said that either. Read my earlier comments.
But we must not overlook the facts what the ugly regimes were established by Stalin in the E.Europe after the WWII. We also can't forget that 1939-1941 USSR and Nazi Germany were tactical allies in carving E.Europe among themselves. ==
Did I deny these? I just asked you and other to be not overhelmed by these and think what would happen if soviet armies stooped on western border of USSR.
For russian people it would be relief. Many soldiers could make home alive.
Hitler paied reparations to USSR and his POWs worked to rebuild destroyed.
In same time Hitler may do on western fromt whatever he liked.
FOR SURE his armies enstrenthened by troops from east made second Dunekerk for ango-americans. So next step is nuclier bombing of Germany and occupied countries.
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