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U.S. to Open Remote Forests To Logging
Washington Post ^ | 05.06.05 | AP

Posted on 05/06/2005 10:26:00 PM PDT by Coleus

The Bush administration, in one of its biggest environmental decisions, moved yesterday to open nearly one-third of all remote national forest lands to road building, logging and other commercial ventures.

The 58.5 million acres involved, mainly in Alaska and in western states, had been put off limits to development by President Bill Clinton eight days before he left office in January 2001.

In Virginia, 394,000 acres are affected in the Jefferson and George Washington national forests.

Under existing local forest management plans, about 34.3 million acres of these pristine woodlands nationally could be opened to road construction. That would be the first step in allowing logging, mining and other industry and wider recreational uses. New management plans have to be written for the other 24.2 million acres before road building can commence.

Governors have 18 months to submit petitions to the U.S. Forest Service to challenge either the old plans to stop development, or to call for new plans to allow it.

Environmentalists said the new rule would let the administration rewrite the forest management plans to lift restrictions against development on most of the forest land.

"Yesterday, nearly 60 million acres of national forests were protected, and today as a result of deliberate action by the administration they are not," said Robert Vandermark, director of the Heritage Forests Campaign, run by a coalition of environment groups. "The Bush administration plan is a 'leave no tree behind' policy that paves the way for increased logging, drilling and mining in some of our last wild areas."

Agriculture Secretary Mike Johanns said in announcing the rule that his agency "is committed to working closely with the nation's governors to meet the needs of our local communities while protecting and restoring the health and natural beauty of our national forests."

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; News/Current Events; US: Alaska; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: bush43; earthfirstmarslater; environment; forest; good; itsabouttime; logging; mining; nationalforests; reversingslickwilly; timber; trees; usda
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Good, trees were made for us to use and we'll have less forest fires because of this. And we bought Alaska for what main purpose?? It's natural resources.
1 posted on 05/06/2005 10:26:00 PM PDT by Coleus
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To: Coleus

So many trees, so few tree huggers. This will cause difficulties for them.


2 posted on 05/06/2005 10:27:58 PM PDT by xJones
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To: Coleus

This one better get it right on the details. God made forests for the enjoyment of urban hikers and vacationers. If the cutting is not done right, it can result in soil erosion. I am not signing on to this one without seeing the beef.


3 posted on 05/06/2005 10:31:27 PM PDT by Torie (Constrain rogue state courts; repeal your state constitution)
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To: Torie
You forgot the sarcasm tag.

There's enough harvestable timber in the El Dorado NF to make a few million houses without even making a dent in it.

L

4 posted on 05/06/2005 10:34:54 PM PDT by Lurker (Remember the Beirut Bombing; 243 dead Marines. The House of Assad and Hezbollah did it..)
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To: Coleus

YES!


5 posted on 05/06/2005 10:37:34 PM PDT by Kay
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To: Coleus

I was following a logging truck one time that had a bumper sticker that had "Earth First" and some smaller lettering below it. I finally got close enough to see the second line: "We'll log the rest of the planets later"


6 posted on 05/06/2005 10:38:43 PM PDT by microgood
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To: Coleus

Bump


7 posted on 05/06/2005 10:39:59 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ...... The War on Terrorism is the ultimate 'faith-based' initiative.)
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To: Coleus

Maybe we"ll get some healthy forests out of this that won't burn to a cinder if struck by lightening.


8 posted on 05/06/2005 10:41:39 PM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: microgood

BAD DECISION!!

Logging, mining and cattle grazing interests should NOT be permitted to loot national parkland which is the common property of ALL citizens, not just resources to be plundered by the few.

And WHERE will this lumber go??? To CHINA??, JAPAN???

National parks should be restricted to hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, wildlife preservation and use by ALL citizens, not just selected private interests.

FLAME AWAY!!!


9 posted on 05/06/2005 10:44:36 PM PDT by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: ZULU

I'm not going to bother pointing out where you mis-read, mis-understood, or just plain have no idea what you are talking about.


10 posted on 05/06/2005 10:49:22 PM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: ZULU

Well, one issue is whether the logging companies pay full freight to the government for the trees. If they don't, it is a ripoff. I have concerns too, in any event. Folks who rent government land or get government water rarely pay market rates. They are a class of welfare queens in that sense.


11 posted on 05/06/2005 10:56:14 PM PDT by Torie (Constrain rogue state courts; repeal your state constitution)
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To: ZULU

Why flame away?

It would be like trying to teach a pig to sing.


12 posted on 05/06/2005 11:10:56 PM PDT by flashbunny
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To: ZULU

No flaming, just the facts, ma'am.

I've lived and worked in open range country for 7 years and in the Tongass National Forest for 35 years. It is the >>Logging, mining and cattle grazing interests<< who keep the public lands in good shape...if...and this is usually the case...there is proper management and supervision by the appropriate agencies. Good grazing and logging practice actually enhances, improves and beautifies the land. The same CAN be true for mining, but unlike the other two mining is purely an extraction of resource. But the end result can be much improved and beautiful, productive countryside through regrading, soil improvement, replanting, landscaping and other enhancements.

Just like any other asset, if you don't at least maintain (and hopefully improve) the public land, it deteriorates.

Wise use, I say.


13 posted on 05/06/2005 11:13:07 PM PDT by skeptoid
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To: Coleus
Step two:

Tell the ecowhacks to buy gas masks, because we are going to resume aerial spraying to kill bark beetles and other forest destroying beasties.
14 posted on 05/06/2005 11:13:38 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch (The world needs more work horses, and fewer Jackasses!)
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To: Cold Heart

Your tagline says it all.

And I don't need any lessons in missreading. I can understand a public rip-off when I read about it.

Apparently you can't, or maybe you're a miner, rancher or logger yourself.


15 posted on 05/06/2005 11:16:47 PM PDT by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: Torie

Precisely.


16 posted on 05/06/2005 11:17:40 PM PDT by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: flashbunny

Or teaching a flashbunny to think.


17 posted on 05/06/2005 11:18:19 PM PDT by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: Coleus

The George Washington National Forest hasn't been logged since the 1920's. About time.


18 posted on 05/06/2005 11:18:42 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (Grant no power to government you would not want your worst enemies to wield against you.)
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To: ZULU
Logging, mining and cattle grazing interests should NOT be permitted to loot national parkland which is the common property of ALL citizens, not just resources to be plundered by the few.

They cut down trees so you do not have to live in a cave. If we share our natural resources so all Americans can buy 2x4s by using our natural resourses then that means we are smart and not stupid marxists.
19 posted on 05/06/2005 11:19:29 PM PDT by microgood
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To: ZULU
The point is that it is the details that matter. Until we know those, and receive informed opinions from creditable sources on a very complex topic, the tendency is for knee jerk reactions. Thus, my "knee jerk" negative reaction to the seemingly premature ejaculation over the proposal.

And so it goes.

20 posted on 05/06/2005 11:24:12 PM PDT by Torie (Constrain rogue state courts; repeal your state constitution)
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To: skeptoid

There is sense in what ou say.

But based on my experience with the government, I wouldn't rely on it to make certain of much more than it collects whetver revenue it can reap from this to fill its insatiable craving for ever more dollars.

Proper logging and grazing practises can result in imptoved forest lands. The key here is "proper".

As for mining, aside from closely monitored oil or gas removal, I'd be very skeptical.

My point is National Parkland and forests are the common property of every American. The Federal Government is merely the steward of that property, and the ultimate result of any grazing or logging permitted should be to improve that common resource, not to feather the pockets of politicians, loggers, or cattle ranchers.


21 posted on 05/06/2005 11:24:12 PM PDT by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: Coleus

Yabba dabba du!!!!! Timberrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!


22 posted on 05/06/2005 11:27:16 PM PDT by taxesareforever
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To: ZULU

The latest book by Jarek Diamond painted a pretty grim picture of mining practices in the US. The negative externalities now being dealt with by the taxpayers (the mining companies are bankrupt or were allowed to close down and distribute their assets elsewhere through government incompetence), are simply huge. Count me very skeptical too when it comes to mining. Only very deep pockets should even be considered, and yes, very closely monitored. Bill Gates, where are you?


23 posted on 05/06/2005 11:29:11 PM PDT by Torie (Constrain rogue state courts; repeal your state constitution)
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To: microgood

"They cut down trees so you do not have to live in a cave."

This has nothing to do with Marxism. I believe in free enterprise. Let them buy land, manage their own forests, cut their own timber and sell it for a profit.

Sucking off the pubnlic tit by running their operations with public property is a form of public welfare.
Controlled logging of forests can improve forage for deer and other game animals and improve the resource. Uncontrolled harvesting of timber is raping public property.


24 posted on 05/06/2005 11:31:15 PM PDT by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: ZULU
As for mining, aside from closely monitored oil or gas removal, I'd be very skeptical.

Knowing the gubmint they will permit wholesale clear cutting of forests.

I would tend to agree with your worries. Yeah, I'm one of those enviromental wack jobs. I became one after witnessing the wholesale rape of the North Maine Woods by the timber companies.

25 posted on 05/06/2005 11:32:27 PM PDT by zarf
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To: ZULU
FLAME AWAY!!!

OK. Not National PARK, but National FOREST.

There is a difference. One is to be preserved, the other to be used.

Timber (in the form of trees) is a resource with a finite lifespan and an ideal age at harvest. Beyond this, it is just so much fuel for a fire, but not a useable resource.

Part of the increase in housing costs came from increased lumber prices when huge tracts were closed to logging to save spotted owls, iirc.

Why run a deficit when that timber is at prime age to harvest? Let the gubmint pick up some bucks so I won't have to pay them in out of my pocket.

National parks should be restricted to hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, wildlife preservation and use by ALL citizens, not just selected private interests.

Try hunting in the park some time. National Forest, yes, National Park, a Felony.

26 posted on 05/06/2005 11:34:28 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (Grant no power to government you would not want your worst enemies to wield against you.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

"Part of the increase in housing costs came from increased lumber prices when huge tracts were closed to logging to save spotted owls, iirc.

Why run a deficit when that timber is at prime age to harvest? Let the gubmint pick up some bucks so I won't have to pay them in out of my pocket."

So I guess we can expect the price of housing to come down. And I suppose our tax bill will be reduced.

As you can tell, I simply don't trust the government when money is involved. Never did.

Sorry about confounding the terms "forest" and "Parks"


27 posted on 05/06/2005 11:43:08 PM PDT by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: Coleus

This is good news! First, trees are a renewable resource. Second, most of these areas are so remote that even the tree huggers can't get to them. Third, there would still be over a million acres of "protected land" (aka unproductive fireboxes) left sitting there. That's a lot of land. To put that in perspective: every man, woman, and child in America could claim a 1/2 acre lot of "protected land" for themselves and there'd still be land to spare.


28 posted on 05/06/2005 11:48:54 PM PDT by Jaysun (The road to despotism is paved with "fairness")
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To: Jaysun
CORRECTION:

Third, there would still be more than one hundred million acres of "protected land" (aka unproductive fireboxes) left sitting there. That's a lot of land. To put that in perspective: every man, woman, and child in America could claim a 1/2 acre lot of "protected land" for themselves and there'd still be land to spare.

Sorry.
29 posted on 05/06/2005 11:51:11 PM PDT by Jaysun (The road to despotism is paved with "fairness")
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To: Coleus

Hold on a minute everyone . . .

I've been reading a couple articles about this. What it appears is happening is that the Bush Administration is simply leaving the control of the use of these national forests up to the states in which they are located. This could potentially lead to an opening of these forests to industry, but it is really all up to the states.


30 posted on 05/07/2005 12:25:22 AM PDT by Red 5 (Michael Moore is Goebbels' spiritual descendant.)
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To: zarf; ZULU
Knowing the government, since they have been thoroughly corrupted by UN Agenda 21 and sustainable development, they probably will sue themselves to stop all beneficial use of public lands (which is directly the opposite of the purpose of founding the national forests)

Here is an example of a totally corrupted government agency, the Army Corps of Engineers

http://www.cecer.army.mil/SustDesign/info.cfm

What Is Sustainable Design & Development? Sustainable Design & Development

Meets the needs of the present without compromising the quality of life of future generations.

Maintains economic growth while producing an absolute minimum of pollution, repairing environmental damages of the past, producing less waste, and extending opportunities to life in a pleasant and healthy environment.

Meets human needs by maintaining a balance between development, social equality, ecology, and economics

Demands systematic considerations of environmental impact, energy use, natural resources, economy, and quality of life.

Has optimal benefit only when addressed at the inception of a project, and throughout the entire life cycle of a project -- from concept to planning, to programming, design, construction, and ownership.

*** balances development and social equality? What in the name of freedom does that mean?

Meets the needs of the present? How can the needs of the present be met when they are not allowed to use their private property and their granted land, water and mineral rights for economic gain?
31 posted on 05/07/2005 12:38:59 AM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: ZULU; All

Zulu, your initial post on this thread, brought back to mind one of my favorite jokes:

A scruffy, unshaven, underfed , backwoods looking individual is standing at the defense table with his public defender in a Florida court of of law, waiting for the judge to enter to begin the trial
for which he is charged and pleading guilty with killing a Florida panther. Seated in the front row of the courtroom are his equally shabbily dressed and undernourished wife, and their four small children. All talking suddenly stops and everyone rises as the bailiff announces to the courtroom the arrival of the judge who is to preside over the trial. The judge tells the courtroom to be seated as he sits and begins the trial by reading the charges of the defendant to the now totally quiet court.

The judge begins;" Sir you are in this court of law today charged with the criminal offense of killing a Florida panther, which is a felony in this great state. I have carefully reviewed your past criminal history, of which you have none, and have also found out that the small monthly checks that you do receive for being physically handicaped, and no longer able to to be gainfully employed, is barely enough to sustain you and your family in the simple backwoods lifestyle that you have by nessesity have had to endure for the past decade.

"Since this is your first ever offense, I am not going to give you any jail time for this crime, but I am going to fine you for it, and small monthly payments will be taken out of your monthly check, untill the fine is totally paid.
Now before I send you to the clerk to finish your paperwork concerning this, is there anything you would like to say to this court?"

The frail man rises to his feet and replies "Yes I do your Honor. I did not kill this animal for fun or sport, I killed this animal to survive. The meat from this animal sustained my wife and family for over two weeks, and after the hide was sufficienly tanned, it was made in to small articles of clothing for my four children. I did not waste this animal your Honor"

With hardly a dry eye in the courtroom, the scruffy gentleman returns to his seat. The judge replies " I believe you, but my verdict still stands. This trial is adjoured, and you can follow the bailiff to the clerks office to finish the legal paperwork, but before you do, would you please approach the bench?"

The defendant nods in the affirmative, and makes his way to the judge's bench. The judge pushes his courtroom microphone
out of sounds reach, leans over his bench, and softly but inquisitively inquires;" I'd like to ask you one question before you depart. What in the world does a Florida Panther taste like?"

The shabbily dressed gentleman raises his right hand to his scruffy beard and begins to rub it in deep thoght as he ponders the judge's question, and then after a few seconds, gives the judge his reply.

"Well your Honor, that's kind of difficult question to answer you see, because it's kind of a toss-up between a bald eagle and a manatee........."


32 posted on 05/07/2005 12:45:15 AM PDT by musicman
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BAN MINING!
Let the morons freeze in the dark
33 posted on 05/07/2005 12:49:01 AM PDT by LegendHasIt
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To: musicman

That IS funny.


34 posted on 05/07/2005 1:30:54 AM PDT by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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Leave Bigfoot alone!! ..We did for the spotted-owl!
35 posted on 05/07/2005 1:33:57 AM PDT by Pro-Bush (Can't afford Medical care? Thank an illegal alien.)
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To: ZULU

Thanks...I'm glad you liked it, and thanks for your reply.


36 posted on 05/07/2005 1:39:48 AM PDT by musicman
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To: Pro-Bush

Is Bigfoot is missing his left leg? Looks like he has ample breast.


37 posted on 05/07/2005 2:20:35 AM PDT by Jaysun (The road to despotism is paved with "fairness")
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: TAMU_Neocon
You're right Doctor Neocon, zat is very very inter-vesting. By the way, I guess addressing the post to "All" doesn't really work. I didn't get a message from you, just happened to see your post. Although apparently inactive, I think there's a FReeper that actually calls himself or herself "All".
39 posted on 05/07/2005 3:16:32 AM PDT by Jaysun (The road to despotism is paved with "fairness")
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To: Jaysun

Didn't Clinton put an area with the highest amount of clean burning coal off limits by naming it a national park or treasure? And the only other large source of this type of coal was somewhere outside of the USA, meaning we would have to start buying this coal from foreign countries.

Is this true? I would say it makes his an ass but he was one before then


40 posted on 05/07/2005 3:46:26 AM PDT by BookaT (Sorry I couldn't be here for the earlier part of the postings. I really don't feel comfortable...)
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To: Coleus

"In Virginia, 394,000 acres are affected in the Jefferson and George Washington national forests."

BAD decision. This is not an area that bursts into flame like the West. We don't have large amounts of pristine forest left in Virginia.

This stinks.


41 posted on 05/07/2005 3:50:16 AM PDT by OpusatFR (I live in a swamp and reuse, recycle, refurbish, grow my own, ride a bike and vote GOP)
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To: Coleus

Cutting trees (with replanting) is the best thing we can do for atmospheric carbon loads. If they actually knew anything, environmentalist would be the ones leading the pack for increased logging.

BTW, a single 10' stick of 4X4 cedar was nearly $25.00 at the Home Depot yesterday. More cutting is what is sorely needed all through the national forests.


42 posted on 05/07/2005 5:45:36 AM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Get back into your closets, you pinkos! We're setting the way-back machine for the fabulous fifties!)
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To: ZULU

"FLAME AWAY!!!"

You have provided the rebuttal to your nonsense more concisely than I could.


43 posted on 05/07/2005 5:48:43 AM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Get back into your closets, you pinkos! We're setting the way-back machine for the fabulous fifties!)
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To: Torie

Actually, the full costs of the logging are not in monies paid to the feds. Have you ever wondered where remote counties that have all of those trees that are being cut keep their infrastructure in order? Where heavily forested counties may have a few thousand for population, roads, culverts, bridges, retaining walls, plowing and a score of other services are provided courtesy of logging company funding through agreements with the feds. I saw one analysis that actually put the total costs of logging in the U.S. at higher levels than overseas. The give-away logging myth (corporate welfare) is a canard that has been around forever in the environmental left.


44 posted on 05/07/2005 5:57:41 AM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Get back into your closets, you pinkos! We're setting the way-back machine for the fabulous fifties!)
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To: BookaT

America's largest resource base for low-sulfer coal is now called Escalante National Monument. The supplier for that resource is now Indonesia's Lippo Group courtesy of the usual dealing in the Clinton administration. Cool, huh? Stroke of the pen - law of the land.


45 posted on 05/07/2005 6:00:48 AM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Get back into your closets, you pinkos! We're setting the way-back machine for the fabulous fifties!)
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To: Coleus

What I don't understand is why don't environmental groups just buy up forests, or compete with the loggers price-wise on usage fees?


46 posted on 05/07/2005 6:09:26 AM PDT by P.O.E.
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To: ZULU

Wow, in the bizarro world, that would be considered clever.


47 posted on 05/07/2005 8:07:24 AM PDT by flashbunny
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To: ZULU
I simply don't trust the government when money is involved.

Actually, on this we agree.

While housing costs may not drop, the cost of building materials may come down. Unfortunately, it has been years since entire towns were practicaly shut down by Clinton in the waning days of his administration. It would take a lot to rehabilitate the infrastructure associated with the logging activities which used to happen.

If there is a profit, though, it will happen.

48 posted on 05/07/2005 11:58:15 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (Grant no power to government you would not want your worst enemies to wield against you.)
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To: ZULU
You're gonna get flamed. There exists here on FR a growing number of folks who cannot and will not allow themselves to hear any point of view but that which aligns itself with blind Bush admin policy..

Don't get me wrong, I love W. He's been awesome on so many scores I lost count. But he, and the GOP, have been way off the mark on many more. This is just one example...There's the Patriot Act, The Parental Consent Act, The (quasi)National ID..., with Ron Paul being the lone voice of reason in a vast wilderness of sh!theads.

It will be intesting to watch how our closed-mindedness plays out over the next 5-10 years. My guess - it'll come back to haunt us.

Wonder if we'll like the hindsight view as much as the closet commie left does these days? ;]

49 posted on 05/07/2005 12:19:50 PM PDT by softengine (The revolution will be televised.)
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To: BookaT
Didn't Clinton put an area with the highest amount of clean burning coal off limits by naming it a national park or treasure? And the only other large source of this type of coal was somewhere outside of the USA, meaning we would have to start buying this coal from foreign countries

I don't know but I'll find out. Such things are typical of the left.
50 posted on 05/07/2005 12:50:39 PM PDT by Jaysun (The road to despotism is paved with "fairness")
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