Avian Flu Surveillance Project

Various ^ | May 9, 2005 | Vanity

[Dog Gone]

Some folks suggested that we begin a thread similar to the Marsburg Surveillance Project for monitoring developments regarding Avian Flu.

The purpose is to have an extended thread where those interested can post articles and comments as this story unfolds.

If we're lucky, the story and this thread will fade away.

[fanfan]

Bump

[EBH]

Flu halted on B.C. duck farms, officials say
By PETTI FONG

Saturday, November 26, 2005 Page A10
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051126/BCBIRDS26/TPNational/Canada

VANCOUVER -- One week after a duck at a Chilliwack farmtested positive for avian flu, health officials say they are cautiously optimistic that the virus has stopped spreading.

Canadian Food Inspection Agency veterinarian Con Kiley said yesterday that 4,500 birds from nearly 90 per cent of all farms in the surrounding area have been tested since last week.

(excerpt)

"One week after the initial detection, we are cautiously optimistic," he said. "It remains contained and not extended to the more susceptible chicken and turkey populations."

[EBH]

Daily Bird Flu News Updates:
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/LatestNews/?AREA=LatestNews&Display=6187

CP - 26th November 2005
Wild ducks tested positive for H5 avian flu viruses in Canada
HALIFAX - Officials confirmed Friday that 35 wild birds sampled in the Maritimes tested positive for H5 avian influenza viruses, but said they did not believe any were carrying the virulent strain of H5N1 avain flu responsible for widespread poultry outbreaks in Southeast Asia.
The infected birds, mostly black ducks and mallards, were found largely in an area around the Tantramar marshes near the Nova Scotia-New Brunswick border. One positive case was found in Prince Edward Island. All of the birds were said to be in good health, leading scientists to believe they were not carrying the strain that has killed at least 68 people overseas.
"I don't call it a concern whatsoever," Dr. Pierre-Yves Daoust of the Atlantic Veterinary College in Charlottetown said Friday. "These are still preliminary results, but 35 of them were positive."
But further tests need to be done to fully identify the viruses and conclusively rule out any link to the Asian virus. That testing, which will be done at the National Centre for Foreign Animal Disease in Winnipeg, will include comparing the genetic sequences of the viruses to the Asian H5N1.

---

CBC News - 26th November 2005
Scientists, producers slam proposal to force poultry indoors
CANADA - Chicken producers and scientists have been quick to criticize the province for considering a move to force all birds to be raised indoors.
The move comes after several wild birds in the province tested positive for the H5N1 virus. While this is not the strain blamed for human deaths in Asia, provincial officials would rather be safe than sorry, so they are considering –among other possible risk-limiting measures – a move to have all poultry raised indoors to limit the risk of wild birds passing on the avian flu virus to domestic birds.

---

The Globe and Mail - 26th November 2005
Flu halted on B.C. duck farms, officials say
VANCOUVER -- One week after a duck at a Chilliwack farmtested positive for avian flu, health officials say they are cautiously optimistic that the virus has stopped spreading.
Canadian Food Inspection Agency veterinarian Con Kiley said yesterday that 4,500 birds from nearly 90 per cent of all farms in the surrounding area have been tested since last week.

---

VNA - 26th November 2005
Canada donates CA$1mil to VN's fight against bird flu
VIETNAM - The Canadian Government has decided to donate 1 million Canadian dollars to help Vietnam fight bird flu. The aid was announced by Robert Greenhill, President of the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA), at his meeting with Deputy Minister of Public Health Tran Chi Liem in Hanoi on Nov. 23.
Liem appreciated the Canadian Government's assistance in techniques, lab tests and epidemiological supervision to Vietnam's fight against SARS, bird flu and human influenza type A H5N1 in the recent past. He also praised Canada's help to Vietnam in mapping out a project to prevent several new infectious diseases.

---

Thanhnien News - 26th November 2005
Vietnam mulls spending $300 mln on bird flu fight
VIETNAM’s Ministry of Health asked the government Friday to allocate almost VND4.9 trillion (US$300 million) to buy medicine, chemicals and equipment to fight bird flu. Minister Tran Thi Trung Chien told deputies to the Vietnamese legislative body National Assembly about the proposal as part of the Ministry's plan to combat the deadly epidemic that has claimed 42 lives in Vietnam since late 2003. She said a large part of the proposed money would be used in provinces in the southern Mekong and northern Red river deltas, high risk areas for the spread of bird flu.

---

Reuters via the Boston Globe - 26th November 2005
Vietnam city poisons birds
HANOI -- Vietnam's commercial hub, Ho Chi Minh City, has begun poisoning pigeons and other wild birds as it moves to prevent avian flu from spreading into the crowded city, an official said yesterday. The H5N1 bird flu virus has flared in 19 of the country's 64 provinces, with the most recent cases reported in the northern provinces of Quan Ninh and Nghe An, the Agriculture Ministry said in a report released yesterday. The virus was detected this week in the south, where Ho Chi Minh City is located. The city has a population of about 6 million, the country's largest.

---

Thanhnien News - 26th November 2005
China confirms 23rd bird flu outbreak among poultry
CHINA - China's Ministry of Agriculture confirmed a bird flu outbreak in Zalantun city in northern China's Inner Mongolia, the official Xinhua news agency said Friday, bringing to 23 the number of outbreaks of the disease. A state avian flu lab confirmed that 246 fowl which died last Sunday in Zalantun had the H5N1 strain of highly pathogenic bird flu, Xinhua said. Local veterinary departments have culled 16,567 poultry within three kilometers (two miles) of the affected area, it said.

---

Sapa-dpa - 26th November 2005
Bird flu taking financial toll on farmers
BEIJING - Chinese agriculture officials have confirmed an outbreak of bird flu in the north-western Xinjiang region, state-run media reported on Friday. It was the seventh outbreak in 10 days with the confirmed presence of the deadly H5N1 avian influenza virus sub-type. The outbreak was found at a farm in the city of Turpan in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, China's Ministry of Agriculture said.

---

Agri News - 26th November 2005
Measures to counter avian flu issued by USDA
WASHINGTON — Agriculture Deputy Secretary Chuck Conner outlined U.S. Department of Agriculture efforts to protect the United States against highly transmissible forms of avian influenza, a disease that commonly affects birds and has been transmitted to humans in Asia. "For more than two decades, USDA has worked to prepare for and prevent an outbreak of dangerous strains of avian influenza in our country," said Conner. "Attacking the disease at its source overseas is a main focus for USDA. We also have strict importation restrictions to prevent the spread of the virus in our country and an elaborate surveillance system in place to monitor our bird populations."

---

AP - 26th November 2005
Researchers urge monitoring farmers for avian flu exposure
US - University of Iowa scientists say birds are not the only risk for human exposure to the influenza virus carried by animals. Despite the worldwide focus on the avian flu virus, research by Dr. Gregory Gray shows pigs, too, pose a threat for passing the virus to humans.
In a study published this week in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases, Gray said hogs' genetic makeup make them perfect mixing vessels for producing new strains of influenza virus.

---

AP via Canton Rep - 26th November 2005
Could free-range flocks be vulnerable to bird flu?
US - State officials and poultry researchers say there’s little risk of bird flu coming to Ohio, but if it does, the flocks most at risk are the ones being raised in outdoor pastures to meet growing consumer demand.
Farmers who specialize in free-range poultry downplay the concerns, saying their birds are protected and their farming methods inherently healthier.

---

AP via Chillicothe Gazette - 26th November 2005
Farmers dispute risks of bird flu
US - State officials and poultry researchers say there's little risk of bird flu coming to Ohio, but if it does, the flocks most at risk are the ones being raised in outdoor pastures to meet growing consumer demand.
Farmers who specialize in free-range poultry downplay the concerns, saying their birds are protected and their farming methods inherently healthier.
A new strain of avian influenza that infected geese appeared in July in Asia, and the worry is that the disease could spread to wild birds that migrate to North America, said Theresa Morishita, an Ohio State University veterinarian. The disease also could be imported through smuggling of parrots, songbirds or fighting chickens.

[bitt]

bump for excellence.

[EternalHope]

Thanks for the update.

[steve86]

I know on various flu forums there seem to be two Tamiflu camps, pro and con. I would rather have it on hand and not need it than the other way around.

Yeah, I would hate for it to be sold short. Many times, in close brush with death cases, very little makes the difference between life and death. You can see this in ICUs. Tamiflu doesn't have to be a "King Kong" against viruses, it only needs to interfere with replication enough to make the difference.

I know there are quite a few casual readers of this thread and I'd hate to see them write it off, along with curcumin, NAC and other things that have their own pros and cons.

[2ndreconmarine]

I have been doing some additional research on herbal anti-virals as an additional protection against H5N1. I started with the post by ThePythonicCow, on a summary of herbal anti-virals and substitutes for Tamiflu (or in addition to Tamiflu). Original link here.. I also considered the many excellent posts on the FR Thread: Bird Flu May Over-Stimulate Immune System.

The article on herbal Tamiflu alternatives was a pretty good article because it gave PubMed references for most of the suggestions. I decided to loop up those references and learn a little more.

One of the best was: Proinflammatory cytokine responses induced by influenza A (H5N1) viruses in primary human alveolar and bronchial epithelial cells., which discussed the "cytokine storm" and the possible mechanism for the lethality of H5N1, namely the overstimulation of the immune cytokine system. This article had also been referenced in the Avian Influenza Bird Flu Information summary.

What I found particularly interesting about this particular article is that it cited the specific cytokines that were associated with the immune response. Those were: TNF-a, IL-6, and IP-10. Significantly, the Avian Influenza Bird Flue Information Summary also cited: "Below is a list of foods that are said to contain substances that are natural antivirals, immune boosters or they decrease cytokines TNF-a and IL-6." Therefore, the summary of anti-virals and cytokine suppressants discussed in the summary only included TNF-a and IL-6. IP-10, which was prominently mentioned in the ProMed article was absent from the summary. So, I decided to look more closely in the Promed database for IP-10 suppressants. I found one article: Ginger extract components suppress induction of chemokine expression in human synoviocytes.

Significantly, the only reference I could find on the suppression of IP-10 was Ginger. Moreover, this research was done at the renown Johns Hopkins Medical School.

In our previous discussions, we had come up with a tentative list from those discussions. My variant of this list was (in rough order of importance):

Vitamin C
Resveratrol
Sambucol (this is somewhat controversial)
Cinnamon
Turmeric
St. Johns Wort

I have eliminated other candidates because the results were not well-substantiated or there were significant side effects.

To this list we must now add:

Ginger.

[Judith Anne]

Outstanding post. It should be added to the Avian Flu Prep thread, if and when you get a chance...

I am presently using Cinnamon and Turmeric for other reasons, primarily these:

Cinnamon is good for insulin response and blood sugar levels, also benefits triglycerides and good cholesterol. Turmeric is an anti-inflammatory and has a shown detectable improvement in my RA.

I also take my elderberry "potion" on days I go out in public, just before and just after.

Ginger is an excellent addition. Thanks for the information.

[Oorang]

Thanks for posting your research. Excellent info 2ndreconmarine.

[Domestic Church]

Thank you!!!!

[ThePythonicCow]

Thanks! - Bump.

[steve86]

Of course, it is better not to get the flu in the first place. That is why NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine) is high on my list (e.g. reference from Swedish Medical Center Hospital, Seattle).

http://www.swedish.org/110925.cfm

Actually, it didn't really prevent infection. "Rather, the supplement seemed to reduce the rate at which influenza infection became severe enough to cause noticeable symptoms."

Also, for new readers, curcumin is the active ingredient from turmeric. Turmeric used as spice has far too little to be useful. It should be in a concentrated form (about 95% standardized). And curcumin in any form has to be supplemented by an absorption facilitator (i.e. piperine), or it is not absorbed effectively. The usual cautions about piperine over-facilitating absorption of prescription medications applies and should be observed.

[2ndreconmarine]

I also take my elderberry "potion" on days I go out in public, just before and just after.

My son came down with this year's flu (not bird flu, obviously) this last weekend. He got it full-bore. I immediately gave him Sambucol in large doses. The fever broke in 36 hours and all symptoms (nausea, fever, headaches, bodyaches, coughing) were gone in 3.5 days. This stuff is great.

[2ndreconmarine]

That is why NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine) is high on my list (e.g. reference from Swedish Medical Center

Thank you for this addition. Also, thank you for the reference. We now have peer-reviewed journal articles for every single item.

The location where I buy Turmeric has it as a supplement, not a spice. It is standardized to 95% curcuminoids.

Thank you all for your responses.

BTW, all of the items we have discussed I have purchased very inexpensively at: Swanson Vitamins, and no I don't own stock or anything. The entire list can be had in reasonable quantity for under $100.

The revised list is then:

Vitamin C
Resveratrol
Sambucol (this is somewhat controversial, but I like it)
Cinnamon
Turmeric (standardized to 95% curcuminoids)
St. Johns Wort
Ginger
N-Acetyl Cysteine

By the way, an interesting observation I have made about all of this. Most of these items are listed as antioxidants in the nutritional catalogs, in fact, all of them are antioxidants except Sambucol, St. Johns Wort, and maybe Cinnamon.

[steve86]

I hadn't seen that NAC-Sustain product before, interesting! Time release is always a nice feature.

The reason I brought up standardization and percentage of active ingredient is that some people will buy a product just because they see the name, when in fact the potency varies wildly. We have seen the articles indicating that standardization isn't a perfect science either, but it's a start.

When I went through my lists and purchased OTC products, I first ordered two of each. Then I went back and ordered four of each. Now I'm going to order another four (I'll order the NAC-Sustain this time). With a product like NAC, if you have a few people in the family and take it twice a day, a bottle doesn't last long!

Same with Elderberry extract. I did choose the Planetary Formulas brand because it had twice the potency per volume, but it has since gone up twice in price!

[Judith Anne]

Also, for new readers, curcumin is the active ingredient from turmeric. Turmeric used as spice has far too little to be useful. It should be in a concentrated form (about 95% standardized). And curcumin in any form has to be supplemented by an absorption facilitator (i.e. piperine), or it is not absorbed effectively. The usual cautions about piperine over-facilitating absorption of prescription medications applies and should be observed

Actually, regular turmeric has enough curcuminoids to be effective for easing symptoms of RA, in doses of approximately 1/4 teaspoon twice a day. I know much larger or more concentrated amounts are safe (except for people with gall stones, who should not take turmeric at all). I imagine effective doses vary. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 95% curcumin (which I haven't found except online, just not available in my rural area) in case of a bad case of flu, just emphasizing that smaller doses can be effective as well.

[Judith Anne]

Again, the turmeric is effective for ME. Others may want or need curcumin 95%.

[steve86]

just emphasizing that smaller doses can be effective as well.

But for cytokine suppression? I know there is one guy on TB2K who uses a less concentrated dose with good results for RA as well.

[steve86]

It is true that curcumin has been used in Ayurvedic and Chinese traditional medicine for thousands of years at relatively low doses.

[ThePythonicCow]

I will second the recommendation of Swanson Vitamins,

"Antioxidants" has become a strong marketing word in vitamin/nutrition sales. Perhaps someday someone can explain it to me in a way that I find persuasive. For now, that word triggers my hype-sensor more than it satisfies my understanding.

[ThePythonicCow]

Resveratrol

There seems to be a significant controversy over whether most resveratrol supplements are worth a darn. The claim of one producer of resveratrol supplement, Longevintex, is that all the other supplements are nearly inactive, due to how easy it is to oxidize resveratrol. That one product uses air tight, nitrogen packed, opaque capsules, and costs about one dollar a cap.

But elsewhere, I saw speculation that the claims of the uselessness of most resveratrol supplements was a ploy by the big pharmaceuticals to reduce the impact that that supplement risked having on their drug sales.

Do a Google search for Longevinex for more details.

As best as I can tell, the jury is still out.

We need some lab or clinical trials on the usefulness of ordinary resveratrol supplements, not lab grade, nitrogen packed stuff.

[Judith Anne]

Ordinary everyday metabolic processes produce a certain number of free radicals--unstable molecules that can interfere with the functions of body cells in important ways. Some interference can be with cell reproduction, replacing healthy cells with daughter cells that have DNA damage from the free radicals. Free radicals can also interfere with cell functions, such as the manufacture of enzymes, etc.

Antioxidants join with free radicals in the body to render them harmless. There is only a limited supply of antioxidants, they are supplied mainly by diet. A number of foods, INCLUDING FRESH COFFEE, have a high level of antioxidant chemicals in them which help prevent degenerative changes caused by the free radicals.

Antioxidants are real, and they are a GOOD thing--help you stay physiologically young and healthy. Not hype. ;-D

(Simplified very basic explanation, hope it helps.)

[ThePythonicCow]

If you do a Google search for "suppression TNF alpha synthesis Cat's claw cytokine", you will find reference to some studies that conclude that Cat's Claw is affective at suppressing TNF-alpha synthesis, hence reducing cytokine storms.

I'm adding Cat's Claw to my collection.

[ThePythonicCow]

That's one big dog in that picture on your FR home page.

The "story" behind antioxidants you relate quite clearly. I have no doubt of the chemistry you describe.

It strikes me that this simple chemical bonding mechanism is applicable to a wide variety of reactions, chemicals and nutrients. It is almost like saying "wet is good", referring to the body's need for water.

There are too many nutrients with antioxidant properties for that attribute to provide much guidance. The studies I've seen (though I have not seriously researched this) show that various good foods and nutrients which are among those with antioxidant properties have various healthy affects, but it is seldom clear that it is exactly the antioxidant property that is responsible for the healthy affect, and too often supplementation with the specific antioxidant chemical (vitamin, mineral, ...) is less successful in demonstrating healthy affects. While such clinical trials seem to be inconclusive, it is patently clear from the labeling and marketing of nutritional supplements that the word "antioxidant" has become a sales driver, rather like the word "sale" for women's clothing.

The end result is that I have not found the label of "antioxidant" a useful guide in selecting nutritional supplements.

[ThePythonicCow]

A good article on antioxidants: Some Good Things to Say About Free Radicals. This was written about ten years ago. The author had been taking increasing doses of antioxidants over the years, and after further study, cut back to ordinary doses, and was less fatigued.

My intuition is that specific remedies for specific ailments, such as tumeric for arthritis, aren't simply a case of "antioxidants are good", but rather have more specific affects, caused by specific compounds, on the particulars of the ailment.

[EBH]

Good reading this morning. Thanks for all the information regarding suppliments. I'll look into them all and make sure they won't be interfering with anything I am currently taking.

[Iowa Granny]

How much Cinnamon, Tumeric and Ginger is recommeded daily to improve immunity?

[bitt]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/28/051128144954.1qt0p6wv.html
drudge/China/mutating story

[Judith Anne]

How much Cinnamon, Tumeric and Ginger is recommeded daily to improve immunity?

Cinnamon, Turmeric and Ginger are spices, foods, and to the best of my knowledge, there is no recommended daily amount.

If you buy them as supplements, bottled and in gelcaps, the bottle will have a recommended amount to take, on it.

[Iowa Granny]

thanks

[Judith Anne]

We need some lab or clinical trials on the usefulness of ordinary resveratrol supplements, not lab grade, nitrogen packed stuff

Good luck with that...I'm not sure, after the antioxidant exchange, if you're asking questions or if you have a broad knowledge base on supplements. I don't, as you must have guessed.

My guess is that resveratrol is less useful as a tnf-A or IL inhibitor than other supplements may be. For example, curcumin 95% standardized has been lab shown to have Cox inhibitor-like effects as far as inflammation is concerned, to have anti-inflammatory effects similar to the corticosteroids at some levels, and also to cause emptying of the gall bladder, so that people who have gall stones should probably not take it. Neither should pregnant or nursing women, because the effects at a high level on those populations aren't known. As far as toxicity, large doses apparently can be taken with no ill effects on the rest of the population who are not pregnant and have no gall stones.

But resveratrol, on the other hand, is found in high levels in, say, Pinot Noir wine, (or whatever wine) and rapidly degrades after the bottle is opened. In other words, (as you suggest) so far, it's unstable for practical use.

Let me go a little further and state that nobody here is prescribing. These are well-known substances that have had recent research showing that they MAY be helpful in case of various viral infection. No research has been done on any of them with H5N1 patients, to the best of my knowledge.

Some here have found what seems to possibly be helpful, through their own reading and use. I sincerely doubt that there is going to be a huge research effort anywhere in the world that is going to give us definitive answers on the use of supplements that possibly have antiviral action in an H5N1 pandemic.

What we are looking for is known supplements with antiviral action that are inexpensive and relatively easy to stock up for possible need. I bet very few care about the antioxidant levels, but I could be wrong.

And I DO apologize--I thought you were asking a question about antioxidants, and it's clear I was mistaken.

[ThePythonicCow]

And I DO apologize--I thought you were asking a question about antioxidants, and it's clear I was mistaken.

Heavens to mercy - no need to apologize. I DID ask a straightforward looking question about antioxidants. Unless you're some kind of mind reader, there was no way you could have guessed that I held some rather odd opinions on the subject.

Sorry I surprised you on that one. Take care and keep up the good work.

[Judith Anne]

Then all is well. Thanks. ;-D

[steve86]

CAUTION: My family has already had one incident with bleeding encouraged by turmeric/curcumin. I won't go into details, but the warnings about not taking curcumin with blood thinners like coumadin apparently have a real basis in fact. No coumadin was involved, just the potent thinning ability of curcumin itself. This was the 95% hot rod version. I assume that natural turmeric, like what JA takes, probably wouldn't do this.

[Judith Anne]

Appreciate the clarification. I hope that warning is on the supplement bottle. I've never seen one, but it should be.

[steve86]

The claim of one producer of resveratrol supplement, Longevintex, is that all the other supplements are nearly inactive, due to how easy it is to oxidize resveratrol.

There is a long history of proprietary herbal formulas that claim to render all the competitors obsolete, for one reason or another. I am skeptical and would like to see the results of independent testing as well. I remember in the 80s a friend of mine was selling a vitamin supplement that was "1000% more active" than the others. I don't believe the company is still in business.

[ThePythonicCow]

I am skeptical

Good idea. I for one am skeptical of all parties to this controversy.

[steve86]

I guess if we come down with H5N1 the proper procedure would be to drink a whole case of Pinot Noir, or swallow a whole bottle of supplement, just to get a microgram or two of resveratrol into the bloodstream. (don't try this at home).

I am especially skeptical of health websites that start out with a Flash presentation and ones where the president of the company writes the research reports.

Having said that, I guess the oxidation and liver metabolism issues are something to keep in mind.

[ThePythonicCow]

There are enough other cytokine storm inhibitors on 2ndreconmarine's list, available for lower cost, to keep me busy taking pills ;).

In any case, I wouldn't wait until I had the avian flu (H5N1) before taking these remedies. They seem to take days, if not weeks, to build up affect in some cases, and H5N1 can take you down in hours, by the worse case scenarios.

Here's where we have a -big- advantage over previous pandemics. Something like FreeRepublic.com can provide us better early warning, so we can start to take measures before it likely gets to us personally.

[steve86]

Infectious Disease 2005 May 15;191(10):1719-29. Epub 2005 Apr 13.
Palamara AT, Nencioni L, Aquilano K, De Chiara G, Hernandez L, Cozzolino F, Ciriolo MR, Garaci E.
Institute of Microbiology, University of Rome La Sapienza, Rome, Italy. annateresa.palamara@uniroma1.it
We have previously shown that the life cycles of several viruses are influenced by host-cell redox states. Reports of the antioxidant activities of the plant polyphenol resveratrol (RV) prompted us to investigate its effects on influenza virus replication in vitro and in vivo. We found that RV strongly inhibited the replication of influenza virus in MDCK cells but that this activity was not directly related to glutathione-mediated antioxidant activity. Rather, it involved the blockade of the nuclear-cytoplasmic translocation of viral ribonucleoproteins and reduced expression of late viral proteins seemingly related to the inhibition of protein kinase C activity and its dependent pathways. RV also significantly improved survival and decreased pulmonary viral titers in influenza virus-infected mice. No toxic effects were observed in vitro or in vivo. That RV acts by inhibiting a cellular, rather than a viral, function suggests that it could be a particularly valuable anti-influenza drug.

Why would they note in vivo if it was essentially impossible to get free resveratrol into the bloodstream?

[steve86]

Yes, we have started the regimen ahead of time also but the curcumin incident today left us a little dazed...

[ThePythonicCow]

With other blood thinners, I usually noticed a tendency to bruise more easily and clot more slowly, which I took as a sign to back off.

Without the details of this curcumin incident, it is difficult to know what level of risk it presented, even in this one case. Anecdotal evidence, even with the details, is difficult to base judgements on.

[ThePythonicCow]

No one, not even Longevintex, claims it is essentially impossible to get resveratrol into the blood. It was just a question of how hard it was to do this. Did you need intravenous injections of laboratory pure nitrogen packed resveratrol, or are some old pills bought for lowest cost a year ago and just rediscovered on the back of your medicine cabinet shelf just fine?

[steve86]

No one, not even Longevintex, claims it is essentially impossible to get resveratrol into the blood. "

Even though very small amounts of free resveratrol are measured in the blood circulation and living tissues of humans following oral consumption of resveratrol

There are numerous quotes of the above sort on the Longevintex web site. When they talk about "very small amounts" they are talking about billionths of a gram. I would say the point they are making is it is "essentially impossible to get resveratrol into the blood" from oral administration. I don't know if it is true or not, in real-world conditions, but that is what they are saying.

[steve86]

Anecdotal evidence, even with the details, is difficult to base judgements on.

All curcumin supplements do or should come with the blood thinning warning. Our incident just confirmed the well-known fact. It isn't exactly the first reported incident.

[ThePythonicCow]

Ok - true. I should have said "I wasn't claiming that it is essentially impossible", not "no one is claiming ..."

Just a minor <grin> difference ...

[steve86]

China reports two more bird flu outbreaks
Updated: 8:48 p.m. ET Nov. 28, 2005

BEIJING - China has confirmed two new bird flu outbreaks in poultry in the northwestern region of Xinjiang and in central Hunan province. (excerpt)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10243739/from/RS.4/

[EBH]

Corn, Soybeans May Fall on Concern Bird Flu Will Erode Feed Use

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=a0ls1DhYJH0E&refer=latin_america

Nov. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Corn and soybean prices may fall in Chicago for a third straight week as a deadly bird virus in Asia and Europe threatens to reduce poultry production and demand for animal feed, a Bloomberg survey shows. (excerpt)

---

And so, the economic ramifications begin...

[steve86]

Interesting map posted by AlaskaDenise on this Current Events thread "New Russian Recombinant from Tula", post #2.

"Yunnan to Mongolia to Novosibirsk to Tula"

http://www.curevents.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29687