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Were Chinese here first? (china; menzies; 1421)
NewsAdvance.com ^ | May 15, 2005 | Shannon Brennan

Posted on 05/16/2005 3:35:42 AM PDT by SteveH

Were Chinese here first?

Shannon Brennan / sbrennan@newsadvance.com

May 15, 2005

Charlotte Rees is heiress to evidence that could turn world history upside down - if she can corroborate it.

She and her six siblings inherited maps from their father, a third-generation missionary born in China, that she says may show the Chinese had discovered America - and the rest of the world - as early as 2200 B.C.

“I’m ready for opposition,” said Rees, who lives in Forest. “Even when Columbus was saying the world was round, he had opposition.”

Rees, 59, will propound her theory Monday at a symposium at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C., on Zheng He, an early Chinese explorer.

In addition to the maps, which depict lands that she argues could be North and South America, Rees says there is other evidence of a Chinese presence more than 3,700 years before Columbus set foot here.

Rees’ maps are actually Korean and date to the 16th century, but she believes they are replicas of Chinese maps dating to 2200 B.C.

John Hebert, chief of the Library of Congress’ Geography and Map Division, said the library has similar maps in its possession.

“She’s still trying to find out more completely what she has,” Hebert said. “… Her interpretations beyond that are her business.”

Hebert said there’s no doubt other seafaring explorers beat Columbus to this continent. There’s documented proof that the Vikings were in Labrador and Newfoundland about 1000 A.D. Hebert said once there is unquestionable proof that history needs rewriting, he’s all for it.

“That’s the stimulating thing about history,” he said.

Rees is hardly the first to propose that the Chinese predated Columbus on American soil. In 2002, retired British Royal Navy Capt. Gavin Menzies published a controversial book titled, “1421: The Year China Discovered America.”

Menzies has many detractors, including Hebert, who said the book represents “fairly shoddy research.”

Nonetheless, Menzies is one of the participants in the Library of Congress symposium. Rees met Menzies last year after contacting him about her maps and research. She said she told him, “You’re putting too much history in too short of a time.”

In 1421, for example, the Chinese already had five-story sailing vessels. Rees argues they must have started with much smaller vessels long before.

Rees said Menzies has been both receptive to her work and helpful with her efforts to get a publisher, and acknowledges he might not have the complete story.

“Menzies told me he didn’t think there’s a chance in a million my father is wrong,” she said.

Contacted by e-mail, Menzies said he does believe the maps show that the Chinese knew of the whole world by 2200 B.C.

“Mrs. Rees contacted me in early 2003 shortly after my book was published,” Menzies wrote. “At the time I was under heavy attack by critics and her father’s maps were an unwelcome distraction.”

Since then, however, Menzies said, he has been overwhelmed with e-mails to his Web site, which made him realize he had oversimplified how America was populated by East Asians who came by sea.

“The Harris collection of maps will, in the long run, cause an even more fundamental and agonizing (sic) reappraisal of American history than my book has,” he wrote.

Rees said her purpose is to further the work of her father, who bought the books of maps in 1972 at an antique store in Seoul, South Korea.

Hendon Harris, a third-generation missionary, was born in China in 1916. He later became a Baptist missionary himself. Rees spent several of her formative years in Taiwan.

Harris, who could read and speak Chinese, realized the maps in his collection matched descriptions in the Shan Hai Jing, the Classic of Mountains and Seas that describes early Chinese explorations by the first real Chinese emperor, Yu, in about 2200 B.C.

“He sent teams out to the ends of the Earth,” Rees said of Yu.

In 1975, Harris’ book, “The Asiatic Fathers of America,” was published in Taiwan. He claimed the Chinese discovered America between 2650 and 2200 B.C.

Harris died unexpectedly of a stroke in 1981 at age 64, and his book hadn’t gotten much attention. In fact, one of Rees’ sisters didn’t know what to do with 1,600 leftover copies, and she finally sold them for $1 apiece. Rees wishes they had them back. She recently found a copy on the Internet for $150. Word about Harris’ book and maps is getting out.

After Harris’ death, the maps ended up with Rees’ brother, Hendon, who kept them under his bed in California until 2003, when Rees decided it was time the family did something with them.

She and her husband, David, had retired in 2002, and she felt she finally had time to devote to her father’s work. Rees said any of her siblings would have been as well or better qualified to pursue her father’s work. But she was the one with the time.

“I didn’t realize the amount of time it would be either,” she said, adding she has spent countless hours in the Forest Library, where she said she can order almost any book she needs from around the country.

The Harris maps went straight from California to the Library of Congress, where they will remain for the foreseeable future. Rees said they are too valuable for her to keep at home. The maps are not on public display, but PBS is planning to do a special on the symposium, Rees said.

Rees knows she will have a difficult job convincing the world that the Chinese were here by 2200 B.C. The Chinese themselves have long believed that Shan Hai Jing was largely mythical, Rees said, but they also acknowledge that myth and fact were often merged.

“If it didn’t contain mythology, it would be suspect,” she said.

Rees has found support for her theory in the academic world - from Beijing to Wake Forest.

Cyclone Covey, professor emeritus of history at Wake Forest University, said if the maps are authenticated, they could prove what many, including himself, believe.

“(The Chinese) were familiar with America and down to Central America at least,” Covey said in a telephone interview. “… Charlotte realizes the Chinese were here before 1421.”

Covey said the Shan Hai Jing provided incredible detail about geographic formations and distances.

“Her father’s map … seems to be a copy of the original that came with the Shan Hai Jing,” Covey said.

There are some differences between the Shan Hai Jing and the Harris maps, which include writing in Korean and Japanese, he said, but those inscriptions were likely added to the maps later.

Those differences, however, are what Hebert said need to be thoroughly researched.

The Harris maps were written in classical Chinese, Rees said. A professor in Beijing has dated the maps to the Ming Dynasty, around the late 1500s. About 72 percent of the place names are the same as those in the Shan Hai Jing, she said.

Some of the descriptions don’t seem mythical.

“The maps show what Father believed was the Grand Canyon and Mt. McKinley,” Rees said.

The maps indicate the Bright Chasm Mountains roughly where Arizona is now and the Measuring Skies Mountain in Alaska, she said.

Her maps and the Shan Hai Jing aren’t the only evidence of a Chinese presence in America, Rees said.

Chinese writing by Tong Fan Tso, in the third century B.C., describes a continent about 10,000 li or 3,300 miles wide, bounded by vast oceans, with huge trees. The Chinese called it Fu Sang, “The Land of the East.”

If these discoveries occurred, how did the Chinese lose track of them? Rees said China shut down not long after the voyages of Zheng He, the admiral who is the subject of the Library of Congress symposium.

The Chinese burned maps and made it a capital offense to go to sea, she said.

“There are periods of time when people lose knowledge,” Rees said, citing the Dark Ages as an example in Western history.

Zheng He was a Chinese explorer and major figure in the history of navigation, who undertook a series of expeditions between 1405 and 1433. With a fleet of 200 ships and a crew of 28,000 men, his voyages are considered the largest maritime expeditions in world history.

Hebert said there is no evidence that Zheng He made it to America, only to the Indian Ocean and the East African coast.

Whether Zheng He sailed to America, Rees points to evidence that one-quarter million Chinese went to sea about 1100 B.C. at the end of the Shang Dynasty, and most never came back. If you look at Olmec writing, some of the characters seem virtually identical to Chinese. She said she believes the Olmec - the ancient people of Mexico - were Chinese.

Rees has also found ancient descriptions of animals that sound like the opossum, coyote, peccary, armadillo and bald eagle - animals found only in America.

“How could they have known all this if they weren’t here?” Rees asked.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; US: District of Columbia; US: North Carolina; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: 1421; archaeology; china; dna; gavinmenzies; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; menzies; migration; navigation
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1 posted on 05/16/2005 3:35:42 AM PDT by SteveH
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To: SteveH

If Ms Rees thinks that the big deal about Columbus was that he thought the world was round, then she's clearly no scholar.

Everybody knew that in Columbus's time. He thought the radius of the earth was smaller than it is, and so was emboldened to go looking for China (and found Cuba, if I remember correctly)


2 posted on 05/16/2005 3:45:00 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: SteveH
I read Gavin Menzies book "1421: The Year China Discovered America" about a year ago and found it fascinating. It may not pass muster with professional anthropologists or historians insofar as rigor, but makes a very compelling argument nonetheless that China circumnavigated the globe and spread their culture whist the Portuguese were still hanging around the north coast of Africa and waiting for a suitable clock to measure longitude. A few coincidences here and there might make one think Menzies is a crackpot, but the large number of peculiar and interesting observations he makes gives his interpretation some credence.
3 posted on 05/16/2005 3:48:26 AM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: SteveH
Rees’ maps are actually Korean and date to the 16th century, but she believes they are replicas of Chinese maps dating to 2200 B.C.

That would be convenient and would even support her hypothesis. Now, if Napolean had only had a few F18's, a couple of aircraft carriers with support ships and a handful of boomer submarines, we'd all be speaking dead languages like the frogs...
4 posted on 05/16/2005 3:54:02 AM PDT by pyx (Rule #1. The LEFT lies. Rule #2. See Rule #1.)
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To: SteveH

Oh! No!..The ChiCOMs will claim North/South America as theirs, like they claim Taiwan. /s off.


5 posted on 05/16/2005 3:58:35 AM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :^)
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To: skinkinthegrass
Soon, we may hear this claim:

Muslims discovered America !!!

Because Zheng He was a Muslim Enuch.

6 posted on 05/16/2005 4:01:08 AM PDT by paudio (Four More Years..... Let's Use Them Wisely...)
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To: SteveH
"“The Harris collection of maps will, in the long run, cause an even more fundamental and agonizing (sic) reappraisal of American history than my book has,” he wrote.

In 1975, Harris’ book, “The Asiatic Fathers of America,” was published in Taiwan. He claimed the Chinese discovered America between 2650 and 2200 B.C."

What balderdash! The difference between the Chinese and Viking "discoveries" of America and the Spanish was that the first two didn't stick around. The Spanish (and later English) did.

Probablity is that the Egyptians beat all of them to the "discovery" part of the equation.

7 posted on 05/16/2005 4:12:01 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: SteveH

Of course the Chinese discovered America. You need look no further than the San Francisco area to see remnants of the once great empire in America. Even the name of the colony, China Town, still bears witness to their early conquest of this continent.


8 posted on 05/16/2005 4:12:20 AM PDT by Arkie2 (No, I never voted for Bill Clinton.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

I am convinced that there was a great deal more travel, exploration, and trade between early civilizations than we give them credit for. We all tend to think in terms of a Dark Ages European peasant family living in a hut, but it wasn't like that at all-- civilizations rose and fell with regularity. Periods like the peasants in the hut did occur, but there were other periods of a high degree of civilization, and we tend to foreget that.


9 posted on 05/16/2005 4:39:59 AM PDT by walden
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To: SteveH
Just thought I might add that one needn't look much further than the eyes of a navajo teenager behind the counter of a Burger-King to realize that asians have been here for quite some time. Also, if strict chronological date of "discovery" of the americas is the primary argument, there is compelling evidence that black africans arrived here first. But those whose preconceived notions of racial and technological superiority are offended might say that the Olmecs were just having a bad lip/nose day while carving tributes to their kind out of solid rock.
10 posted on 05/16/2005 4:42:21 AM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: SteveH
“I’m ready for opposition,” said Rees, who lives in Forest. “Even when Columbus was saying the world was round, he had opposition.”

“There are periods of time when people lose knowledge,” Rees said, citing the Dark Ages as an example in Western history.

Standard nonsense history from Rees concerning the history of the west.

However, its probably true the Chinese did come across the ocean, just as it is also likely that others like the Phoenicians did (how hard could it be if the Vikings made it in their primitive crafts?). There are too many good old maps pre-1500 showing the Americas, Antarctica, and Australia, as Charles Hapgood pointed out.

11 posted on 05/16/2005 4:56:28 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: SteveH
So America is just another rogue province? NOT!

I bet they found people living here when they came ashore.

12 posted on 05/16/2005 5:01:12 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (Grant no power to government you would not want your worst enemies to wield against you.)
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To: SteveH
“There are periods of time when people lose knowledge,” Rees said, citing the Dark Ages as an example in Western history.

imho, one need not look back that far...

13 posted on 05/16/2005 5:03:10 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (Grant no power to government you would not want your worst enemies to wield against you.)
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To: walden
"I am convinced that there was a great deal more travel, exploration, and trade between early civilizations than we give them credit for."

I agree. I even suspect that "some" of those civilizations were sufficiently old to have been around during the last Ice Age, and their sites are now well-submerged. I find the notion that there was at least one such in the East Indies/Malaysia area that is theorized to have been the source from which civilization spread from into Egypt and Mesopotamia, was well as lesser known examples further east--the diaspora having been initiated by the flooding of the home of the "core civilization" at the end of the last Ice Age. I think there are one or two articles here at FR that allude to this.

14 posted on 05/16/2005 5:05:12 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: paudio

They are making that claim! But the vikings were here first.

Viking Activity in Missouri, Kansas City lies at the edge of the area that was once explored by Vikings who came down from the north, through Hudson Bay. At that time, the northern Midwest was much lower in elevation, probably close to sea level. The Vikings left evidence of their explorations when and where ever they tied up their long boats. Numerous Viking mooring stones have been discovered in Minnesota, Western Iowa, and as far south as Joplin Missouri. These are identical to Viking mooring stones that can be found along the Scandinavian and European coasts and inland rivers where the Vikings traveled and left their mark. Some of the Vikings left inscriptions chiseled in stone using runic writing, and even dated their visits to the second millennium of the "Year of our LORD." Since the ice sheets have receded and melted, the land of the upper Midwest has bounced back up, i.e., it has risen in elevation, so that it is no longer at sea level.


15 posted on 05/16/2005 5:18:04 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: agere_contra

Beat me to it.

What's more the opposition to Columbus's underestimate of the earth's circumference, was based on classical estimates (done by one of the librarians of the Museum (a.k.a. the Library of Alexandria) ) which were only superceded in accuracy in the 20th century.


16 posted on 05/16/2005 5:24:29 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (Christ is Risen! Christos Anesti! Khristos Voskrese! Al-Masih Qam! Hristos a Inviat!)
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To: Wonder Warthog

Why would those sites be submerged? The opposite is true. they would be on high and dry land now, because as evidenced by the viking mooring rocks, the massive glacial ice sheet pressed the continent down. Much of our coastlines as we now know them were under water way back then. As the ice recedes, the continent rizes up. Tetonic plates 'float'.


17 posted on 05/16/2005 5:26:00 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: SteveH

Since the Chinese discovered America first, they now have a historical claim. America is no a renegade province that must accept rule from Beijin. To impose it's will, China will make long terms plans to hold American capital and displace local American manufacturing in otrder to make America dependent on the Chinese for imports America no longer produces. Wait, that's already happened.


18 posted on 05/16/2005 5:49:47 AM PDT by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: doc30

Where did the Chinese come from? Weren't the Mongols there first? maybe the Chinese are actualy decendants of the Japanese, or a blend of Mongols and Japanese.


19 posted on 05/16/2005 5:58:30 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: SteveH
1st, Asians were the first to arrive here. We call them Native Americans. They have their own indigenous names..

2nd, If seafaring Chinese arrived here anytime pre-columbus, it's interesting, but not relevant to how we view history. It's Columbus' discovery that led to the westernization of the continent. If the Chinese were here prior to that time period, they came and they left.
20 posted on 05/16/2005 6:01:22 AM PDT by NYCRebublican (No more Slimes)
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To: SteveH

Actually, there have been other clues to Chinese visitation of the Americas in the Ancient World:

1. Ancient Central american jade carvings found in various places in Mexico and the Southwest that seem to depict oriental looking people.

2. A mess of round, hollowed out stones found off the coats of Washington or Oregon, which some have theorized might have been used as ballast stones or anchors.

3. Renditions of dragons in Central american art.

Granted, that's pretty weak evidence on it's face, but it does not preclude the possibility that he Chinese did come here. However, it was common Chinese practice to rewrite official history on an Emperor's whim, destroy records that were considered politically dangerous, and to forbid travel beyond the borders of Imperial China, so, the truth may never be known.

Zheng He, by the way, was apparently a busy guy. The few survivng, reliable records have him travelling all over Southeast Asia by sea. His voyages revolved around demonstrating Chinese benevolence by delivering gifts all over the continent. If he's the guy that did "bump into" America, it must have been a hell of a storm or navigation error that did it --- the Chinese were not much on exploration. Their voyages centered more on reiforcing China's image as the center of the universe --- if you're going to do that, you go to known places, you don't go off in search of the unknown.

A good source of information on this kind of stuff is a book entitled "The Discoverers" by Daniel Boorstein. Zheng He's voyages are given quite a lot of ink in there.


21 posted on 05/16/2005 6:11:20 AM PDT by Wombat101 (Sanitized for YOUR protection....)
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To: SpaceBar

That would put a Clovis spear through the hypothesis' of Jared Diamond in "Guns, Germs and Steel." Opposition is probably the least of what Ms. Rees will encounter.


22 posted on 05/16/2005 6:14:01 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (M. Moore + MoveOn.org = MooreOn.Org)
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To: SteveH

You are aware that the Chicoms have used less evidence than this to "reunite" a "breakaway province" before. :)


23 posted on 05/16/2005 6:19:12 AM PDT by myheroesareDeadandRegistered (Ann Coulter/ Mark Levin tag team in '08)
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To: SteveH

"Whether Zheng He sailed to America, Rees points to evidence that one-quarter million Chinese went to sea about 1100 B.C. at the end of the Shang Dynasty, and most never came back. If you look at Olmec writing, some of the characters seem virtually identical to Chinese. She said she believes the Olmec - the ancient people of Mexico - were Chinese."

Do the ethnic olmec still exist, or their descendants? If so, DNA testing of them or the ethnic people living in their historical area might provide some clues about this.


24 posted on 05/16/2005 6:19:45 AM PDT by WoofDog123
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To: walden

A lot more seafaring happend. The miration to Australia 560,000 years ago makes that clear.


25 posted on 05/16/2005 6:24:24 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: FastCoyote

The earth isn't that old.


26 posted on 05/16/2005 6:26:15 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: Nathan Zachary
"Why would those sites be submerged? The opposite is true. they would be on high and dry land now, because as evidenced by the viking mooring rocks, the massive glacial ice sheet pressed the continent down. Much of our coastlines as we now know them were under water way back then. As the ice recedes, the continent rizes up. Tetonic plates 'float'."

Wrong. The rise in sea level far exceeded the "flotation" of tectonic plates. Evidence is the MANY sites they are finding along the extended river deltas in India, the far east, and around the world that were submerged by the rise of sea level.

27 posted on 05/16/2005 6:29:26 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Wonder Warthog

The southern continents and plate edges may have been raised up because of the northern parts of the plates being pushed down. That would possibly explain that. Same for migration to Australia being much more recent due to all of Indonesia being much higher. As the glaciers melted and the northern contenets springing back up, the southern plates went back down. Think of the earth as a liquid filled ball. Push in one area, another has to rise.


28 posted on 05/16/2005 6:41:33 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: SpaceBar
I read Gavin Menzies book "1421: The Year China Discovered America" about a year ago and found it fascinating.

The Portuguese discovered the Azores in the early 1420's. The Azores are west of Portugal some 800 miles out in the Atlantic. It's thought Spanish & Portuguese fishermen were fishing the Grand Banks off Newfoundland even earlier than 1420. In any case Columbus knew he wasn't in any jeopardy of sailing off the edge of the world when he set sail westward from Cadiz in 1492.

29 posted on 05/16/2005 6:44:31 AM PDT by BluH2o
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To: Wonder Warthog

I was thinking of anything on northern continents when I made that first post, So thinking about it, and to prove your observation of ancient ruins being under water, this makes more sense. The sea water isn't raising, it's plate movement as the earth maintains it's globe shape.


30 posted on 05/16/2005 6:49:41 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: skinkinthegrass

Lief Ericson beat them both to North America!!!!!


31 posted on 05/16/2005 6:53:33 AM PDT by TXBSAFH (Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, who's bringing the chips?)
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To: Arkie2

This makes sense the American Indians obviously learned scalping from the Chinese and it's also the reason they used chopsticks up until 1492, when the fork was imported.


32 posted on 05/16/2005 6:58:08 AM PDT by CJ Wolf
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To: TXBSAFH

I think so too, at least as far as North America is concerned.
Vikings were fishing off the coast of Newfie land long before the Portuguese and Spanish. There are old viking burial sites all along the Nelson river, so they were well into the Hudsons bay exploring, not just off the coast, fishing. They were bored of fishing by that time, and set off exploring :o)


33 posted on 05/16/2005 7:05:13 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: FastCoyote

"A lot more seafaring happend. The miration to Australia 560,000 years ago makes that clear."

I must have been on drugs when I wrote that.

"A lot more seafaring happend. The migration to Australia 50,000 years ago makes that clear."


34 posted on 05/16/2005 7:08:19 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: SteveH

Interesting correlation to an account in the Book of Mormon of a group that migrated to the Americas around 2200 B.C. LDS scholar Dr. Hugh Nibley examined historical, anthropological, and archaeological similarities in his book:

Lehi in the Desert/The World of the Jaredites/There Were Jaredites, Vol 5; Deseret Books; ISBN 0875791328 (Hardcover, 1988)

GW


35 posted on 05/16/2005 7:08:55 AM PDT by gregwest
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To: CJ Wolf

I've never heard that one before, North American Indians using chop sticks? Honestly, I have lived around northern Indian reserves all my life and have never heard that one before.


36 posted on 05/16/2005 7:13:26 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: Nathan Zachary

Well it started to stop in 1492 so you wouldn't see it today.


37 posted on 05/16/2005 7:15:09 AM PDT by CJ Wolf
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To: FastCoyote

Still too old. I'd say around 1000 b.c. or even later


38 posted on 05/16/2005 7:17:30 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: SteveH

Ah so!!


39 posted on 05/16/2005 7:17:50 AM PDT by sandydipper (Less government is best government!)
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To: CJ Wolf

I hear alot of folklore, and haven't heard such a thing. Maybe
you are talking about a different kind of Indian, maybe the inca (?) from way south?


40 posted on 05/16/2005 7:20:14 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: SteveH
Did they arrive by the 'Sea of China'?

41 posted on 05/16/2005 7:22:25 AM PDT by evets (God bless President Bush and VP Cheney)
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To: All

The world is flat.

You Art Bell types need to change your foil hats.


42 posted on 05/16/2005 7:23:51 AM PDT by Jet Jaguar (The noisiest people in the libraries these days are the librarians. (battlegearboat))
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To: Nathan Zachary

Here are some books.

Four Winds Food Specialists. 1998. Population Profile: Cherokee Indians. Fork, Fingers, and Chopsticks. II(2):3-6. [food habits; North American Indians; Cherokee]

Four Winds Food Specialists. 1997. Population Profile: Asian Indian-americans. Fork, Fingers, & Chopsticks. I(2):3-6. [food habits; North America; United States; Asian Indian immigrants]

Four Winds Food Specialists. 2001. Population Profile: Dakota Indians. Fork, Fingers, & Chopsticks. V(1):3-6. [foodways; diet; North American Indians; Dakota]


43 posted on 05/16/2005 7:24:05 AM PDT by CJ Wolf (You thought I was joking.)
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To: Jet Jaguar

You are right, if you're taking Muhammad's (Allah's) word for it.


44 posted on 05/16/2005 7:27:41 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: SpaceBar

Somebody else pointed out that there are structural limitation to wooden hulls that make Zheng He's ocean-liner sized junks kinda unlikely. Somthing about "hogging" - the way the keel bends from too much weight along too great a length.


45 posted on 05/16/2005 7:29:02 AM PDT by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: Nathan Zachary
http://car.utsa.edu/prehistoricrecipes.htm

"Afterwards, the cooking rocks were lifted out of the fire one at a time, using large sticks made of young cedar or oak saplings which resembled oversized chopsticks."

Off course everything is bigger in texas. But really it's such ancient history I think it's all speculation at this point. The fork really took off after 1492.

46 posted on 05/16/2005 7:35:12 AM PDT by CJ Wolf
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To: CJ Wolf
It only makes sense that Indians would have used sticks of sorts for eating tools. A self learned thing. it's a bit of a stretch to say they it was brought over from Chinese ancestry.
Your probably right leaving it to mere speculation. Little Ray- The Chinese weren't known for their ship building capabilities. I think I read something somewhere that mentioned they were somewhat fearful of the sea. I'll probably figure out where after the thread dies...
47 posted on 05/16/2005 7:46:33 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
There are too many good old maps pre-1500 showing the Americas, Antarctica, and Australia,

LOL. Yeah, like the Piri Rees map.
48 posted on 05/16/2005 8:15:15 AM PDT by BJClinton (Giuliani/DeLay 2008)
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To: SpaceBar
In her book, Gods from the Far East: How the Chinese discovered America, Henriette Mertz also lays out this theory. She contended that there were regular tours from China to this continent, that caches of sandals had been planted for the tourists to re-shoe on their journeys to the Grand Canyon and other places.

One of the bases for her theories was that written stores--previously considered "wonder stories," had specific distances recorded in li's [Chinese distance measurements] that, she said, could not place these occupancies in China.

The title of her book apparently capitalized on the titles of Von Daniken's book, Chariot of the Gods. Was an interesting theory at the time.
49 posted on 05/16/2005 8:27:13 AM PDT by righttackle44 (The most dangerous weapon in the world is a Marine with his rifle and the American people behind him)
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To: righttackle44
In her book, Gods from the Far East: How the Chinese discovered America ...... Von Daniken's book, Chariot of the Gods.

Once and for all, the Goa'uld are false gods!!!

50 posted on 05/16/2005 8:38:06 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (“When you’re hungry, you eat; when you’re a frog, you leap; if you’re scared, get a dog.”)
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