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Bush is wrong on Yalta apology (GREELEY ALERT)
Chicago Sun-Times ^ | May 20, 2005 | ANDREW GREELEY

Posted on 05/20/2005 7:49:59 AM PDT by Chi-townChief

President Bush continues the practice of the big lie as prescribed by Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda ace. If you tell a big enough lie often enough, people will believe you. Bush does not apologize even when he's caught in a falsehood. All right, there were no "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. But it was not his fault that he believed all the intelligence agencies of the world, was it?

The parents of the young men and women killed and wounded in Iraq as well as the relatives of all the Iraqis blown up since the American arrival might have a different view of things. They might be inclined to think that the buck stops at the desk of the U.S. president.

During his recent trip to Europe, when he wasn't telling Vladimir Putin how to preside over Russia, he retold one of the biggest lies of the 20th century. He apologized for the Yalta agreement that handed, as he said, eastern Europe over to Soviet domination. Because one can hardly expect the president to read history books, one supposes that he does not realize that the serious studies of the Yalta conference reject that analysis. It's a Republican big lie that has become true because of 60 years of fervent repetition. It is still a lie, however -- just like the claim in a New York Times article that the big powers had "carved up" Europe at Yalta.

The Yalta meeting occurred in February 1945. Consider a map of Europe at that time, such as the one opposite Page 246 of Max Hasting's book Armageddon. By February 1945, Marshals Zukov and Konev were about to cross the Oder River, which was well inside Germany (and is now the border between Germany and Poland). It had occupied or surrounded every Eastern European capital except Prague. Stalin obtained nothing at the Yalta agreements that he had not already captured.

Despite President's Bush's willingness to accept American responsibility for Soviet occupation of Europe, this remains the Republican big lie of the 1940s: A senile President Roosevelt had given Poland and the Baltic countries over to Stalin.

Roosevelt was not at his best at Yalta. He still thought he could "get along with Stalin." However, there was nothing much he could do to extirpate the Red Army from those or any other countries they occupied except drive them out by brute force.

The Republican response then -- and in Bush's apology even now -- was that the United States should have driven the Soviet Army out of Eastern Europe. It is not clear now that it would have been possible; probably it would not have been. Moreover, there was still a war to be finished with the Japanese. Nor would the American people have been willing to accept the casualties of an attempt to push the Red Army back to its 1939 frontier. Napoleon and Hitler had learned the lesson of fighting a land war with Russia. Was the United States supposed to do a better job while at the same time defeating Japan, especially since -- as few are willing to remember now -- the public was already sick of war. Would a Republican president raise the battle cry "on to Moscow''?

Not very likely. Certainly, the Republican candidates in the 1944 election (''Get the boys home with Dewey and Bricker'') were not calling for an invasion of Russian occupied eastern Europe.

Thus, Bush's "apology" was valid only if he believes that the United States should have driven the Red Army out of Germany (a geographically necessary first step) and then out of Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (and Ukraine, for good measure). How many millions more would have died on both sides in this continuation of the war?

Why did no one ask President Bush if he would have gone to war with the Soviet Union in 1945? He could have used the Iraq excuse: to rid the world of a monstrous dictator. Like the Iraq conflict, such a war between the United States and Russia might have continued for a long time. Indeed, it might still be going on. Our cities would be in ruins. Most of us would be dead and many of us would never have been born.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Illinois; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: andrewgreeley; greeley; yalta
Greeley should know about "big lies" as he publishes them weekly. It's always interesting how these liberal clowns like Greeley ignore the Soviets' role in attacking Poland in Sept, '39 and how the western allies stood by as the commies overran the countries that they went to war to liberate.
1 posted on 05/20/2005 7:49:59 AM PDT by Chi-townChief
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To: Chi-townChief

Right, like repeating that Clinton's impeachment "was all about sex."


2 posted on 05/20/2005 7:52:27 AM PDT by GianniV
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To: Chi-townChief

Joseph Goebbels? Was he at Yalta?


3 posted on 05/20/2005 7:53:42 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: GianniV

Right, like repeating that Clinton's impeachment "was all about sex."
-----
Yes, the spinmeisters of the leftist media just keep at it, don't they? The real problem is that there are still fools that buy their newspapers, those that must be fed the liberal re-written, spun perspective so they can get through a day...


4 posted on 05/20/2005 7:54:33 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Chi-townChief
>>>>>>>President Bush continues the practice of the big lie as prescribed by Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda ace

Whatever happened to subtle innuendo. Greeley must have thought Subtle Innuendo was that foreign exchange student he thought talked funny back in High School.
5 posted on 05/20/2005 7:55:29 AM PDT by .cnI redruM ("Every man's your brother 'til the rent comes due" - Anon.)
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To: Chi-townChief
...there was nothing much he [Roosevelt] could do to extirpate the Red Army from those or any other countries they occupied except drive them out by brute force.

Might not have been such a bad move.

6 posted on 05/20/2005 7:55:46 AM PDT by randog (What the....?!)
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To: Chi-townChief
Must suck to be Andrew Greeley today.
Hates the new Pope.
Hates the President.
Nobody's buying his trashy novels.
7 posted on 05/20/2005 7:56:54 AM PDT by Semper Paratus
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To: Chi-townChief

"Thus, Bush's "apology" was valid only if he believes that the United States should have driven the Red Army out of Germany (a geographically necessary first step) and then out of Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (and Ukraine, for good measure). How many millions more would have died on both sides in this continuation of the war?"

So, Andrew, it's not a "lie" we're talking about, but rather who had the strongest will to stand up for what they believed. Apparently it was Stalin, and Greeley serves as his apologist.



8 posted on 05/20/2005 7:57:33 AM PDT by zook
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To: Chi-townChief

So Greeley thinks the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe was a good thing?


9 posted on 05/20/2005 7:58:09 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Chi-townChief
Stalin obtained nothing at the Yalta agreements that he had not already captured.

Sure he did: permission to keep what he had captured.

10 posted on 05/20/2005 7:58:53 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Violence never settles anything." Genghis Khan, 1162-1227)
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To: Chi-townChief
But it was not his fault that he believed all the intelligence agencies of the world, was it?

Stunning. Now they don't even care that the intel was pretty uniform that Saddam probably still had WMDs. Bush was, you know, supposed to KNOW. As if he could go to Iraq and see for himself.

11 posted on 05/20/2005 7:59:23 AM PDT by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: randog
Patton and MacArthur could've handled the Reds. If not, an A-bomb going off above Moscow would've done the trick.
12 posted on 05/20/2005 7:59:34 AM PDT by beeler ("When you’re running down my country, Hoss you’re walking on the fighting side of me.")
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To: Chi-townChief

Greeley can't help but repeat a big lie to open his article.

The left is notorious for doing what they claim not to be doing. Or blaming behavior on others that they are engaged in themselves.

And the business management of print media wonders why there is a decline in readership!


13 posted on 05/20/2005 8:00:35 AM PDT by Pylot
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To: Chi-townChief

Greeley is basically a "fallen away" priest with communist sympathys who
also is allowed to pollute the mush minds of students (attendees} at the University of Arizona. His opinions are always suspect.


14 posted on 05/20/2005 8:04:46 AM PDT by Don Corleone (Leave the gun..take the cannoli)
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To: Chi-townChief
Stalin obtained nothing at the Yalta agreements that he had not already captured.

So what? That doesn't mean that it was legitimate for Stalin to annex the Baltics and de-facto annex those parts of Europe that he had captured.

15 posted on 05/20/2005 8:07:52 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Rodney King

To go further... that is like saying in 1941 "Well, we should just settle with Germany that they control Europe, we wouldn't be giving them anything that they haven't already captured."


16 posted on 05/20/2005 8:09:11 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Mr. Jeeves

"Sure he did: permission to keep what he had captured."



Absolutely. Greeley acts as if the only choice when you know you can't (or don't have the will) to right a wrong is to accept it and give your seal of approval. The ACLU knows that it doesn't have the votes to defeat marriage protection amendments in most states, so does Greeley suggest that the ACLU *endorse* marriage protection amendments even though its members oppose such amendments? Even if FDR couldn't have gotten Stalin out of the Baltics and Eastern Europe, he could have still expressed his opposition to such tyranny.


17 posted on 05/20/2005 8:10:25 AM PDT by AuH2ORepublican (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: Rodney King

Bingo.


18 posted on 05/20/2005 8:11:36 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Pylot

I am really getting sick of this infantile Bush lied stuff. I feel like I am stuck in a room with a bunch of imbeciles who keep saying the same thing over and over. Even if one grants him the point that there was not much more America could do or wanted to do, it does no harm to acknowledge that living under Soviet opprssion was bad and liberation is a cause for rejoicing. It also goes without saying that their security is their own responsibility both then and now, and if they want to be free they'd better wise up and forget about the 35 hour work week and stuff like that.


19 posted on 05/20/2005 8:11:38 AM PDT by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: Chi-townChief

Greeley staes that there was nothing much that could have been done to extirpate the USSR from states in Eastern Europe which it had already occupied. Funny, I don't remember the Allies occupying France, Italy, Netherlands or anyplace else after the War except West Germany and West Berlin. These were occupied long enough for the Germans to gather themselves up as a democratic nation. Pinkos like Greeley continued to love and laud the Commies knowing full well that they had stretched their empire by means of a boot on the throats of the occupied. Paging Alger (Ales) Hiss, Comrade Hiss, your bosses are calling.


20 posted on 05/20/2005 8:13:52 AM PDT by Inwoodian
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To: Mr. Jeeves
thank you... that was the money shot in the article
21 posted on 05/20/2005 8:16:01 AM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist ©®)
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To: Chi-townChief

Greeley is pathetic. He must think his collar is hiding his condescension and hate. Yeah, right Greeley, tell us about lying!


22 posted on 05/20/2005 8:16:29 AM PDT by macamadamia
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To: Chi-townChief

Classic debating technique. Mischaracterize the other side's argument, then knock it down.

Neither Bush nor anti-communists have ever suggested that the U.S. should have continued WW2 against the Soviets. Rather, the Yalta agreement gave tacit approval to Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. What Roosevelt could have done is to demand that after the war, the Soviets remove themselves from otherwise sovereign allied or non-aligned nations like Poland, Baltic Republics, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia.

Anyway, what a GOOFBALL the Sun-Times has on its editorial staff.


23 posted on 05/20/2005 8:19:35 AM PDT by Elpasser
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To: Chi-townChief

This man is a communist and a disgrace to all Catholics.


24 posted on 05/20/2005 8:26:02 AM PDT by detch
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To: Chi-townChief
greeley is certainly trying to follow in the footsteps of his and the dems/stealth-commies' hero: Goebbels
25 posted on 05/20/2005 8:27:39 AM PDT by NoClones
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To: ClaireSolt
I feel like I am stuck in a room with a bunch of imbeciles who keep saying the same thing over and over.

Well, actually, we are.

The liberal, socialist apologists have nothing but the same old lies, over and over again. It has the one advantage of making them totally predictable.

Your observation is unfortunately, correct.

26 posted on 05/20/2005 8:46:42 AM PDT by evad (No action to secure borders, No action on judges... NO MONEY!)
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To: Mr. Jeeves
Sure he did: permission to keep what he had captured.

Good point. What Greeley also ignores is that Yalta was merely the culmination of years of efforts by Roosevelt to prevent Western troops from ending up in Eastern Europe. Churchill tried over and over to get Roosevelt to permit campaigns that would put us in Eastern Europe to no avail. In addition, Patton was prevented from moving into Eastern Germany toward the end of the war.

IMHO, Yalta was what Roosevelt had in mind all along.

27 posted on 05/20/2005 8:56:30 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: Semper Paratus

This guys a real POS. Every column from him hangs like a bad fart.


28 posted on 05/20/2005 8:59:51 AM PDT by johnny7 (Ever wonder what's the 'crust' in 'Ol Crusty'?)
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To: All

We sentenced those people to nearly 50 years of hell. You are darn right an apology is in order. This is an acknowledgment that Roosevelt (my family's patron saint) lost the whole poker game with Stalin at Yalta and failed to heed the advice of the greatest man of the century, Winston Churchill.

We gave back territory in Eastern Germany. We pulled our troops back and allowed Soviet troops to pull up and occupy it. Greeley is a modern day Alger Hiss, a stinking liar, and a communist. He still loves and reveres his favorite nation, the Soviet Union.


29 posted on 05/20/2005 9:03:19 AM PDT by Luke21
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To: Chi-townChief

Actually, if we demanded that the Soviet Union withdraw to its previous borders, and they neglected, and we massed troops on the borders, cut off all trade and blockaded the them from trading with all nations, put forces in China (in effect, saving China from communism) while British forces could move up Central Asia, the Soviet Union would be bottled in and after seeing two A-Bombs in Japan it is more than likely they would back down. And if not, we could build some more and have another demonstration over Stalingrad and the Soviets would have little to no choice but to surrender to all U.S. demands.


30 posted on 05/20/2005 9:09:17 AM PDT by chudogg (www.chudogg.blogspot.com)
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To: Don Corleone
Too many Priests not tending to the souls of the church but wasting themselves writing murder mystery books and op ed trash such as this - the Catholic church is infested with leftists and sexual perverts until our new POPE gets rid of this evil the RC Church will continue to decline
trading modern liberal humanist propaganda for the clear cut( but hard to live by) moral - traditional restraints of Christian life. Homosexual/lesbian/marxist/relativism is the Church's biggest problems.
31 posted on 05/20/2005 9:16:14 AM PDT by ConsentofGoverned (mark rich, s burger,flight 800, waco,cbs's national guard-just forget thats the game)
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To: Don Corleone
Too many Priests not tending to the souls of the church but wasting themselves writing murder mystery books and op ed trash such as this - the Catholic church is infested with leftists and sexual perverts until our new POPE gets rid of this evil the RC Church will continue to decline
trading modern liberal humanist propaganda for the clear cut( but hard to live by) moral - traditional restraints of Christian life. Homosexual/lesbian/marxist/relativism is the Church's biggest problems.
32 posted on 05/20/2005 9:16:54 AM PDT by ConsentofGoverned (mark rich, s burger,flight 800, waco,cbs's national guard-just forget thats the game)
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To: All
sorry for double post- just too much coffee today
33 posted on 05/20/2005 9:19:27 AM PDT by ConsentofGoverned (mark rich, s burger,flight 800, waco,cbs's national guard-just forget thats the game)
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To: Chi-townChief
"Thus, Bush's "apology" was valid only if he believes that the United States should have driven the Red Army out of Germany (a geographically necessary first step) and then out of Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (and Ukraine, for good measure). How many millions more would have died on both sides in this continuation of the war?"

I don't and won't second guess FDR at Yalta. But this quote from the article says it all as far as I'm concerned. The US was not equipped to do what's described above. The war had taken a tremendous toll on all involved. The only other option was to nuke Moscow which was not a decision to be taken lightly. After VE day with the Russians being just as big heroes as the Americans, it would have been very hard to do. The American public would have never accepted this immediately after WWII. By the time the real threat of Communism was apparent it was too late.

34 posted on 05/20/2005 9:25:43 AM PDT by DaGman
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To: Chi-townChief
to ANDREW GREELEY;
"GO to Hell young man."- Horace Greeley(paraphrased)
35 posted on 05/20/2005 9:46:06 AM PDT by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: DaGman

I believe the apology is very valid and that the commies (both here and abroad) never owned up to their complicity in starting the war.


36 posted on 05/20/2005 9:57:56 AM PDT by Chi-townChief
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To: Chi-townChief
....It had occupied or surrounded every Eastern European capital except Prague.

I have a cousin who was in an Armored Recon unit who has told the story of having gone through what became East Germany and was on the outskirts of Prague when the war ended.

He said they stayed a bit and then were ordered to pull way back and let the Red Army move in.

So this yo-yo has it wrong as I suspect is usual for him.

37 posted on 05/20/2005 11:31:48 AM PDT by oldsalt (There's no such thing as a free lunch.)
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To: Chi-townChief
"I believe the apology is very valid and that the commies (both here and abroad) never owned up to their complicity in starting the war."

I'm not convinced we need to apologize, but Russia as well as people like Tito, Ceaucescu and other Communists or pseudo-communists (Tito) that are now long dead, had a whole lot to apologize for. I think the US did the best it could under the circumstances.

38 posted on 05/20/2005 2:40:45 PM PDT by DaGman
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