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GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY : Gun lobby threatens our very way of life
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ^ | May 13 | Josh Horowitz

Posted on 05/21/2005 10:42:38 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan

CSGV: GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY

Op-Ed Challenges "Guns Equal Freedom" Formula

Gun lobby threatens our very way of life

The price extracted by guns is simply too high

By JOSH HORWITZ
SPECIAL TO THE REVIEW-JOURNAL

When the National Rifle Association's top lobbyist, Wayne LaPierre, addresses the crowd at "FreedomFest 2005" at the Bally's/Paris Resort in Las Vegas today, he will be preaching a message that has served his organization well: guns equal freedom.

As LaPierre puts it, "The Second Amendment is the fulcrum of freedom in our nation, because freedom and the Second Amendment are mutually interdependent. They are the 'chicken and the egg;' neither can exist without the other."

LaPierre can expect a friendly reception from the right wing activists at FreedomFest. Aggressive support for gun rights provokes none of the intramural squabbling that sometimes threatens to divide social conservatives and their libertarian allies in the GOP.

By framing the gun debate as a choice between protecting liberty and the illusion of safety, the gun lobby has painted itself as a defender of basic American values.

Too often, gun control advocates walk into the trap and concede that values like democracy and independence must be sacrificed to fight gun crime.

"At what point will Americans agree that the price exacted by guns -- the gun lobby's 'price of freedom' -- is simply too high?" asks Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center.

This formulation is not smart politics, because Americans rightly treasure freedom. More importantly, it fails to hold LaPierre and the gun lobby accountable for a philosophy that is at odds with freedom and the institutions that support it.

The most recent example of the tension came last month, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill that allows people to use deadly force -- including guns -- when faced with a violent threat, even when a confrontation could be avoided by simply walking away. The new law goes far beyond self-defense, which was already a well-established right in Florida, to invite vigilantes to substitute their judgment for the judicial system.

David Kopel, a leading gun rights theorist, acknowledges the potential tension between an expansive right of self defense like the one embodied in the new Florida statute and the rule of law, but dismisses the concern out of hand, arguing that "people's taking the law into their own hands has always been a core principle of the American legal system, and the American attitude toward guns is simply one manifestation of that principle."

This warped conception of popular sovereignty is at the root of the most egregious anti- democratic proposition advanced by the gun lobby: that citizens need to arm themselves to safeguard political liberties against threats by the government.

Kopel has called guns "the tools of political dissent," and LaPierre wrote in 1994 that "the people have a right, must have a right, to take whatever measures necessary, including force, to abolish oppressive government."

As famed legal scholar Roscoe Pound observed, however, "A legal right of the citizen to wage war on the government is something that cannot be admitted. ... [because] bearing arms today is a very different thing from what it was in the days of the embattled farmers who withstood the British in 1775. In the urban industrial society of today a general right to bear arms so as to be able to resist oppression by the Government would mean that gangs could defeat the whole Bill of Rights."

The standoffs at Ruby Ridge and Waco -- often cited as proof that the government can and does abuse its power -- illustrate why armed resistance is a dead end. Randy Weaver and David Koresh may have had good reasons to distrust the government, but they had no right to use private arsenals to keep the police at bay. Our system includes democratic safeguards, such as juries, that do not rely on the private force of arms.

After the Oklahoma City bombing, the gun lobby toned down its rhetoric, casting an armed citizenry as a deterrent to oppression rather than a potential rebel force against a democratic government. "The Second Amendment is America's first freedom because it is the one right that protects all the others," LaPierre says.

This argument sounds reasonable but is no different in substance that what gun rights absolutists were saying before Oklahoma City. If they believe in the right to take up arms to resist government policies they consider oppressive, even when these policies have been adopted by elected officials and subjected to review by an independent judiciary, then they are opposed to constitutional democracy.

When LaPierre talks about guns and freedom, he wraps himself in a flag that the NRA is simultaneously ripping to shreds. Protecting vigilantes from criminal prosecution and urging citizens to stockpile weapons for a showdown with the government are more than just threats to public safety -- they are threats to our democracy and our way of life.


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; cary; freedom; guns; sas
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I don't think I needed to put a puke alert since it's obvious being a gun grabbing editorial by Josh Horror, I mean Horowitz of CSGV. He even sites his buddy Josh Suckermann, I mean Sugarmann of VPC in this one.
1 posted on 05/21/2005 10:42:39 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan
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To: Dan from Michigan
The libertarian in me thinks that Josh should be allowed to sniff as much glue as he pleases. After all, it's his money and his life. However, I still have hope that his loved ones will intervene.
2 posted on 05/21/2005 10:45:15 PM PDT by Redcloak (Over 16,000 served.)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Every last person reading FR should join NRA. Even if you don't own a gun.


3 posted on 05/21/2005 10:45:31 PM PDT by Tax Government (Put down the judicial insurrection. Contribute to FR.)
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To: Dan from Michigan
I don't think I needed to put a puke alert since it's obvious being a gun grabbing editorial

I think you missed the boat on this one. The only thing that decreases the puke alert level is the fact that is was posted by someone above reproach. I certainly haven't been here long enough to get away with it.

4 posted on 05/21/2005 10:46:08 PM PDT by Stonedog (I don't know what your problem is, but I bet it's difficult to pronounce.)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Just the talk of GUNS gives me the heeby-jeebies. I'm so frightened.( /Lib weenie squeal)


5 posted on 05/21/2005 10:48:11 PM PDT by Mark (Lib Kinsley-LA Times-"I'm sick of talking about values..When I want values I go to Wal-Mart"))
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To: Dan from Michigan
"If they believe in the right to take up arms to resist government policies they consider oppressive, even when these policies have been adopted by elected officials and subjected to review by an independent judiciary, then they are opposed to constitutional democracy.

Noone is opposed to CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY,they're opposed to the unconstitutional direction certain groups (money hungry politicians and power mad judges) wish to take us. And freedom is worth fighting and dying for.

6 posted on 05/21/2005 10:49:05 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rearview mirror.)
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To: Dan from Michigan
Liberals think we can walk away from violent criminals without confrontation, huh? If someone wants to kill you, all the kumbaya thinking in the world ain't gonna stop it from coming true. Here's where I differ with liberals: I believe a trusty gun will stop a criminal dead cold. That's common sense with a bullet. And its just one example of how America's gun culture protects the one right on which all the others are dependent: the right to life. Josh Horowitz doesn't get it!

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
7 posted on 05/21/2005 10:49:19 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Dan from Michigan

One wonders what "way of life" they're talking about here. And it is interesting to hear them assert that Randy Weaver had "no right" to resist law enforcement with a "private arsenal" when his case was that of an innocent civilian entrapped by the deliberate abuse of a gun control law, a gun controller's wet dream if ever there was. Weaver's wife was murdered as a result. If this is the "way of life" that's being threatened then I'm all for that.


8 posted on 05/21/2005 10:49:20 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Mark
The two "G" words that make liberals scream running for the hills: God and Guns!

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
9 posted on 05/21/2005 10:50:39 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop

just when you think you've beat them into submission you trip over a slimey rock and out they come again


10 posted on 05/21/2005 10:53:26 PM PDT by jneesy (certified southern right wing hillbilly nutjob)
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To: Dan from Michigan
In the urban industrial society of today a general right to bear arms so as to be able to resist oppression by the Government would mean that gangs could defeat the whole Bill of Rights."

Well, well, well...this would certainly explain the sudden inexplicable fascination with "gangs" by the MSM and some segments of our government lately.

A brand new "reason" to have gun control; since the others weren't working.

11 posted on 05/21/2005 10:53:55 PM PDT by garandgal
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To: Dan from Michigan
Hey Josh:

Let me make this reeeeealllly simple for you so you can understand it.

The Constitution does not grant me rights; it merely enumerates the inalienable ones I possess by virtue of my humanity. My rights are in instrinsic part of what defines me as a HUMAN BEING. One of those Rights is the ability to keep arms to protect my life, the lives of those I love, my property, and my country, if necessary.

Our government was established for the SOLE PURPOSE of PROTECTING my ability to exercise those rights.

Everytime you gun grabbers pass another law restricting my ability to exercise my rights, you are imposing an unjust sentence on me. You are punishing ME by limiting MY freedoms because OTHERS have committed a crime (and, as a result, violating other inalienable RIGHTS).

If depriving people of their inalienable RIGHTS is your idea of "democracy" and a "way of life," then you are seriously confused. TOTALITARIANISM denies people their rights and your "way of life" SHOULD BE protecting my ability to freely exercise my rights.

As I said in my article, "So, You Want To See Me Naked?" many years ago, I will NOT play the victim for you. I will not leave myself exposed so you can feel as though you have done something. My days of being a helpless female are over, and you will take my gun from my cold, dead hands.

12 posted on 05/21/2005 10:54:10 PM PDT by TheWriterTX (Proud Retosexual Wife of 12 Years)
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To: Billthedrill
Unlike Horwitz, I absolutely believe we have a right not just to bear arms for self-defense but to employ them in order to effectively resist a tyrannical and oppressive form of government. Its a very American thing to do.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
13 posted on 05/21/2005 10:55:23 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Dan from Michigan

He should be clear:

Thug gun culture is a threat.

Responsible adult gun culture is the answer to that threat.


14 posted on 05/21/2005 10:57:37 PM PDT by mc6809e
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To: garandgal
LOL! Liberals can't even disarm gangs in this country; it beggars the imagination to conceive how they will disarm every law-abiding citizen. They have a national gun registry in Canada but the compliance rate is abysmal. One can be imposed here only over the dead bodies of the American people.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
15 posted on 05/21/2005 10:57:58 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Dan from Michigan
By framing the gun debate as a choice between protecting liberty and the illusion of safety

What illusion? You'd think evidence from DC would let the gun control idiots know that their plans are not working. Violent crime rates in concealed carry states are much better than in strict control states.

16 posted on 05/21/2005 10:58:31 PM PDT by Stonedog (I don't know what your problem is, but I bet it's difficult to pronounce.)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Huh. Any man who doesn't WANT nor support the right to own a gun....is a wuss.

How's THAT?


17 posted on 05/21/2005 10:58:54 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Yo! Cowboy! I'm praying for a LoganMiracle! It CAN happen!!!!)
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18 posted on 05/21/2005 10:58:55 PM PDT by the anti-liberal (It's time the left - left!!!)
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To: Dan from Michigan
The standoffs at Ruby Ridge and Waco ... Our system includes democratic safeguards, such as juries, ...

Do you suppose this ding-wah ever heard of Lon Horiuchi?

19 posted on 05/21/2005 10:59:19 PM PDT by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: mc6809e
To liberals we're well-armed thugs. Thugs that stand in the way of their plans to remake our country in their socialist image. Good. There are some things that need to be said "NO" to if we're to remain free.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
20 posted on 05/21/2005 11:00:28 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Tax Government

You may say I need a tinfoil hat, but I don't want to be in the NRA member registry, in case something ever happens.


21 posted on 05/21/2005 11:01:15 PM PDT by Bostton1 (Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have!)
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To: Dan from Michigan
Randy Weaver and David Koresh may have had good reasons to distrust the government, but they had no right to use private arsenals to keep the police at bay.

OK, wait a minute... so does this mean that we have no right to defend ourselves against a government that would do something to us to inspire distrust?

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

And the really ironic thing is that lefties are consistent critics of both law enforcement and military in any discussion not having to do with gun control.

22 posted on 05/21/2005 11:01:33 PM PDT by dbwz (2A Sister)
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To: Brad's Gramma
In a time when women pack heat, I don't know what to make of metrosexual guys who are afraid of guns.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
23 posted on 05/21/2005 11:02:08 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Dan from Michigan

"If they believe in the right to take up arms to resist government policies they consider oppressive, even when these policies have been adopted by elected officials and subjected to review by an independent judiciary, then they are opposed to constitutional democracy."

Funny... because you're the ones advocating something that the actual constitution explicitly forbids. Liberals sure do like to talk about the constitution, but only in vauge reference and never in actual substance.


24 posted on 05/21/2005 11:02:20 PM PDT by Sofa King (MY rights are not subject to YOUR approval.)
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To: mc6809e

Your response is...quite simply...perfect.


25 posted on 05/21/2005 11:04:20 PM PDT by TheWriterTX (Proud Retosexual Wife of 12 Years)
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To: goldstategop

Just call 'em wusses. It works fine.


26 posted on 05/21/2005 11:04:34 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Yo! Cowboy! I'm praying for a LoganMiracle! It CAN happen!!!!)
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To: dbwz
Yep. They don't like a lawfully armed government either. They hate cops and they hate soldiers with an equal passion. If you asked them a situation in which force can be lawfully employed, they probably couldn't think of one. Yep, they're consistent there.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
27 posted on 05/21/2005 11:04:55 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Dan from Michigan

I think this is a good article. It demonstrably shows the lack of depth and understanding, absence of common sense and knowledge of the history of the country, the CSGV has on the American landscape.

These people have nothing to stand on, and are busy noodling with symantics to prove high convoluted talking points, turning off anyone who has a ounce of self respect. There is no way this can be described as 'inspiring' punditry, it barely musters a response by pro-RKBA activists, it's so utterly senseless it doesn't create any response, even after reading it, it won't exist in the minds of those who read it in a few days time. I'm already forgetting it. I remember this author runs this group, they must be the most dull and witless bunch of people in the DC beltway. How can you publish articles where the only half lucid point is based on a well documented case of government entrapment?

Who donates to this guy's organization, they must be complete fools. This huckster can't even publish a decent 800 word article. Wonder how well he pays himself.


28 posted on 05/21/2005 11:05:46 PM PDT by JerseyHighlander
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To: Sofa King
Hahahaha - which one? The one in which judicial tyrants have overruled the will of the people? The one institution the Left loathes these days is the ballot box cause they keep losing elections. And please don't go on about the rule of law and constitutional democracy.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
29 posted on 05/21/2005 11:07:34 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop
They have a national gun registry in Canada but the compliance rate is abysmal. One can be imposed here only over the dead bodies of the American people.

Oh, I agree with you entirely! I'm just saying the sudden "realization" that we have gangs here seems as though it's a precursor for "they could overthrow our government if we don't get rid of the guns!" hysteria. Note, they say nothing about getting rid of the GANGS themselves...LOL!

You know how these people are....someone throws out a bizarre idea and they all run with it.

30 posted on 05/21/2005 11:12:01 PM PDT by garandgal
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To: Bostton1

When the NRA is or becomes an advocacy group -- and not just a gun-owners' group -- then it will have achieved its purpose.


31 posted on 05/21/2005 11:16:20 PM PDT by Tax Government (Put down the judicial insurrection. Contribute to FR.)
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To: Dan from Michigan
"This warped conception of popular sovereignty is at the root of the most egregious anti- democratic proposition advanced by the gun lobby: that citizens need to arm themselves to safeguard political liberties against threats by the government."

Yeah, these are some people with some really "warped" ideas:

"I carried it (a revolver) religiously and during the summer I asked a friend, a man who had been one of Franklin's bodyguards in New York State, to give me some practice in target shooting so that if the need arose I would know how to use the gun."
~ Eleanore Roosevelt,
from her autobiography.

"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."
~ John F. Kennedy,
March 20, 1961.

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."
~ John F. Kennedy,
April 1960.

"The Second Amendment isn't about protecting ourselves against criminals. It's about all of us protecting ourselves from all of you."
~ Dr. Suzanne Gratia,
a survivor of the Killeen, Texas Luby's massacre speaking to Congressman Charles Schumer (D-NY) while testifying before Congress, 1994.

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms. This is not to say that firearms should not be very carefully used and that definite safety rules of precaution should not be taught and enforced. But the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible."
~ Hubert Humphrey,
from "Know Your Lawmakers, Guns," Feb. 1960, p. 4

"There is no doubt in my mind that millions of lives could have been saved if the people had not been 'brainwashed' about gun ownership and they had been well armed. Hitler's thugs and goons were not very brave when confronted by a gun. Gun haters always want to forget the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which is a perfect example of how a ragtag, half starved group of Jews took up 10 handguns and made asses out of the Nazi's."
~ Theodore Haas,
former prisoner of the Nazi's Dachau concentration camp.

"And today, when I am asked that question, I tell people it doesn't matter whether you're Hungarian, Polish, Jewish, or German: If you don't have a gun, you have nothing."
~ Menashe Lorinczi,
Auschwitz survivor on why Jews didn't resist in Auschwitz.

"Americans need not fear the federal government because they enjoy the advantage of being armed, which you possess over the people of almost every other nation."
~ James Madison,


"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property."
~ Thomas Paine,


"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes"
~ Thomas Jefferson,


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
~ Thomas Jefferson,




It's Not Just A Gun...

It's My "HOMELAND DEFENSE RIFLE"!!
32 posted on 05/21/2005 11:16:52 PM PDT by The_Macallan
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To: goldstategop
If you asked them a situation in which force can be lawfully employed, they probably couldn't think of one.

Ah, but there is one good use for cops and soldiers in their eyes - putting the kibosh on citizens with "private arsenals".

They sure know how to keep your head spinning, don't they?

33 posted on 05/21/2005 11:17:19 PM PDT by dbwz (2A Sister)
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To: Brad's Gramma
What everyone keeps stepping around is that the Liberals can not impose socialism on us if we are armed. The absolute goal of the liberals in this country is the imposition of a socialist government on all of us. An armed society makes this impossible. They have to disarm us to complete their goals. They will tell any lie, and twist any truth to achieve their dream of a Socialist America. Our duty to our grandchildren is to stop this by what ever means necessary. Lock and load
34 posted on 05/21/2005 11:20:54 PM PDT by oldenuff2no (Proud Nam Vet)
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To: Dan from Michigan

This talk may go over in New York City, but out here in Montana things are a bit different. You don't want to mess with our pickups and rifles! And you can keep your Eastern liberal nose out of our religious practices too!


35 posted on 05/21/2005 11:21:14 PM PDT by claudiustg (Go Sharon! Go Bush!)
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To: Dan from Michigan
"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA — ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."

-Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler
36 posted on 05/21/2005 11:21:37 PM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: Bostton1

If you fear being on a registration list, then join the National Rifle Association with a new chosen alias.


37 posted on 05/21/2005 11:21:45 PM PDT by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: Dan from Michigan

[As famed legal scholar Roscoe Pound observed, however, "A legal right of the citizen to wage war on the government is something that cannot be admitted. ... [because] bearing arms today is a very different thing from what it was in the days of the embattled farmers who withstood the British in 1775. In the urban industrial society of today a general right to bear arms so as to be able to resist oppression by the Government would mean that gangs could defeat the whole Bill of Rights."]


Judging by this bilge, I would say that "famed legal scholar Roscoe Pound" is only famous because he makes people laugh.


38 posted on 05/21/2005 11:21:58 PM PDT by spinestein
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To: Dan from Michigan
The most recent example of the tension came last month, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill that allows people to use deadly force -- including guns -- when faced with a violent threat, even when a confrontation could be avoided by simply walking away.

He's right. Imagine, those backward Bushes have gotten the crazy idea that people actually have the right to defend themselves! If I am ever confronted by an armed robber or rapist, instead of using force I will beg him to spare me while I await help from the Almighty government. No thug would want to harm me if I fell to his feet crying hard enough . /liberal "logic"

39 posted on 05/21/2005 11:23:02 PM PDT by Tabi Katz
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To: The_Macallan
Mr Horowitz might want to have a chat with the woman from OKC:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1406498/posts

In fact, I'd help pay part of the cost to see it happen.

You're a FINE single malt, btw...
40 posted on 05/21/2005 11:26:56 PM PDT by decal (Where were YOU when AndyScam broke?)
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To: Mark
Just the talk of GUNS gives me the heeby-jeebies. I'm so frightened.( /Lib weenie squeal)

Now, now, it's not nice to make fun of our liberal friends. They only want to protect us from the law-abiding.

41 posted on 05/21/2005 11:27:39 PM PDT by Tabi Katz
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To: The_Macallan

Save for the quotes. Thanks.


42 posted on 05/21/2005 11:28:48 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Dig deeper, more ammo.)
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To: Dan from Michigan
"The most recent example of the tension came last month, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill that allows people to use deadly force -- including guns -- when faced with a violent threat, even when a confrontation could be avoided by simply walking away. The new law goes far beyond self-defense, which was already a well-established right in Florida, to invite vigilantes to substitute their judgment for the judicial system. "

Florida eliminated it's "requirement to run" law, and I believe adapted Texas law that says basically that any legally armed citizen is not required to run. If you feel that your life is being threatened, you can use deadly force, and this has not caused any problems in Texas.

43 posted on 05/21/2005 11:30:12 PM PDT by de Buillion (Jerusalem, 1099)
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To: Bostton1; All
Q.) Did the camp inmates ever bring up the topic, "If only we were armed before, we would not be here now"?

A.) Many, many times. Before Adolph Hitler came to power, there was a black market in firearms, but the German people had been so conditioned to be law abiding, that they would never consider buying an unregistered gun. The German people really believed that only hoodlums own such guns. What fools we were. It truly frightens me to see how the government, media, and some police groups in America are pushing for the same mindset. In my opinion, the people of America had better start asking and demanding answers to some hard questions about firearms ownership, especially if the government does not trust me to own firearms, why or how can the people be expected to trust the government?

There is no doubt in my mind that millions of lives could have been saved if the people were not "brainwashed" about gun ownership and had been well armed. Hitler's thugs and goons were not very brave when confronted by a gun. Gun haters always want to forget the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which is a perfect example of how a ragtag, half starved group of Jews took up 10 handguns and made asses out of the Nazis.

~~~~~~

I agree, use an alias. But join the NRA. Everyone...

44 posted on 05/21/2005 11:37:21 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Yo! Cowboy! I'm praying for a LoganMiracle! It CAN happen!!!!)
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To: Billthedrill
"Weaver's wife was murdered as a result. If this is the "way of life" that's being threatened then I'm all for that."

If I remember correctly, the federales paid Randy $3 million for murdering his wife, son, and dog. Great people, these FBI Snipers!

45 posted on 05/21/2005 11:43:23 PM PDT by de Buillion (Jerusalem, 1099)
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To: goldstategop
[They don't like a lawfully armed government either. They hate cops and they hate soldiers with an equal passion. If you asked them a situation in which force can be lawfully employed, they probably couldn't think of one. Yep, they're consistent there.]


Reminds me of a conversation I had with a self described "proud liberal" about a week or so ago.

She said she hated guns and hated bombs. Her moral beliefs told her that it is wrong to use violence to solve your problems. She was even more enthusiastic in her hatred for President Bush. She hates him because he uses the military of this country to kill people, and even though it may bring democracy to a former dictatorial country and stop atrocities from happening (as she acknowledged in Afghanistan, if not Iraq) it is still never worth the price of using force to kill people she said.

She then told me that she wished someone would KILL GEORGE BUSH and that it would have been great if that hand grenade that was found (in the crowd at the Georgian speech) would have exploded, killing the President.

It's amazing that anyone can say something so obviously hypocritical and not realize it, but I've come to the realization that ALL pacifists are living a life of enormous hypocrisy. If you want to live your life in peace and not anarchy, then you need to accept that force (personal or by proxy) is mandatory, and if you want justice, then you need to make sure the ones who employ the greatest force are the good guys.
46 posted on 05/21/2005 11:54:35 PM PDT by spinestein
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To: Dan from Michigan
Josh, if you're really serious about changing things, feel free to go out there and confiscate all those guns on your own.
47 posted on 05/21/2005 11:55:57 PM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: goldstategop
The two "G" words that make liberals scream running for the hills: God and Guns!

The two "G" words they do like are Gays, and Globalization.
48 posted on 05/21/2005 11:57:36 PM PDT by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: spinestein
They do make an exception. Its kosher to murder conservatives. And this from folks who pride themselves on being non-judgmental and compassionate to others. I guess every one needs a bete noire. For the Left, its folks who watch The Dukes Of Hazzard.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
49 posted on 05/21/2005 11:57:46 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: mc6809e
>> Thug gun culture is a threat.

It is indeed. I want to buy a shiny new bar or m1a1, and the wife is going to severely maim me if I do... I abhor violence, especially when committed upon my person by a loved one.

I can't even get upset over the gun control weenies anymore; hopefully they will exterminate themselves via their own foolish notions. Lets let those who live off of the mentality they (gun controllers) perpetuate eat till they pop.

I just want a new rifle and a couple of days at the rage.

Bang, bang... She is not going to let me get my bar... because she is evil... and will shoot me with it...//sss
50 posted on 05/21/2005 11:58:50 PM PDT by mmercier (don't bring a pistol to the revolution)
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