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NH: Man without I.D. vows to board flight or be jailed
NHfree.com ^

Posted on 05/22/2005 7:30:03 AM PDT by Dada Orwell

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To: FreeReign
By its definition, war is a conflict carried on by arms, between nations.

Why is it that I do not read that the "Nation of IRAQ" declared war on the USA?

References, please! --- Or have I missed something?

151 posted on 05/22/2005 4:31:08 PM PDT by Buddy B (MSgt Retired-USAF)
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To: Dada Orwell

"In a free country you do not need government permission to travel."

For sure. You can take off walking and go where you want.

You can travel in many ways, flying is different and is not mandatory.


152 posted on 05/22/2005 4:33:33 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland
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To: Moral Hazard
Thousands of people were killed on 9/11 because of lax security at airports.

No, they were not.

Thousands of people were killed on 9/11 because of a self-defense free zone in and around airliners and a "let them hijack" policy dating from the early 1970s.

153 posted on 05/22/2005 4:42:37 PM PDT by B Knotts (Viva il Papa!)
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To: FreeReign
BTW, last I heard, employers who ask for citizenship papers as proof, are subject to law suits.

You have it backward. Employers are REQUIRED to ask for proof an employee is legally eligable to work. The potential employee can choose to provide a passport or other legal documentation, but the employer MUST ask, and must get it before employing someone.

As for how you know someone is driving without a license, they also likely have no registration, no insurance, etc. All those can be checked based on the tags, home address, etc.

But the bottom line is, for PIs who are used to tracking down hidden assets and willful trickery, finding illegal aliens would be like shooting fish in a barrel. $1000 per head reward, and these guys would do five before breakfast.

But noooooo, YOU would rather the government tagged and track us all.

154 posted on 05/22/2005 4:49:41 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: HereInTheHeartland
You can travel in many ways, flying is different and is not mandatory.

What is different? You are going from Point A to Point B, with whatever method you choose to travel.

155 posted on 05/22/2005 5:00:26 PM PDT by Buddy B (MSgt Retired-USAF)
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To: Mulder
If you don't like America, why don't you move to another country? ;-)

Where did you ever get that from? All I said is that I object to the search. I've made my choice as a consumer and a citizen and don't place myself in that position.

Don't get all snippy...; )

156 posted on 05/22/2005 5:07:04 PM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Buddy B
By its definition, war is a conflict carried on by arms, between nations.

Why is it that I do not read that the "Nation of IRAQ" declared war on the USA?

What?

Paraphrasing your mindset;

References, please! --- Or have I missed something?

Yes I think you're missing something.

When you can articulate how this resolution falls short of what is required by the Constitution, please let me know.

157 posted on 05/22/2005 5:21:28 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: eno_
But noooooo, YOU would rather the government tagged and track us all.

I never said that. Why don't you document where I said that -- you can't!

Employers are REQUIRED to ask for proof an employee is legally eligable[sic] to work. The potential employee can choose to provide a passport or other legal documentation, but the employer MUST ask, and must get it before employing someone.

So private companies are required by the government to get their potential employee to show their papers in order that they may get a job? Gee, that sounds familiar.

How is that different than private airline companies required by the government to get the potential air traveler to show their papers in order that they may travel by air.

There's not a dimes worth of difference. Same goes with the drivers license and registration example -- all which was my original point.

158 posted on 05/22/2005 5:38:19 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign

slight correction...illegals aliens are free to come and go as they please.....


159 posted on 05/22/2005 6:10:25 PM PDT by halfright (9/11 3,000 Americans MURDERED...close the borders!)
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To: FreeReign

Did I say I approved of all that? Nope. Just the reality of it is that illegals could EASILY be found.

Our government has no need to track citizens more closely.


160 posted on 05/22/2005 6:35:16 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: Caipirabob

"Well, I hope he's ready to review the "Constutional Gaurantee for right to Air Travel" with the judge and jury when the time comes."

According to the 10th Amendment any power not expressely given to the Federal government by our Constitution is reserved for the states or the people. I may have the wording a little off but the gist is that the individual and the states don't need the Constitution's blessing to do something...Federal government does.


161 posted on 05/22/2005 6:36:11 PM PDT by Dada Orwell (www.freestateproject.org)
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To: Wormwood

His head and his heart are in exactly the same place. And both are very hard. And did anyone mention that he is a dorkhead?


162 posted on 05/22/2005 6:51:14 PM PDT by mathurine (ua)
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To: Wormwood

His head and his heart are in exactly the same place. And both are very hard. And did anyone mention that he is a dorkhead?


163 posted on 05/22/2005 6:51:55 PM PDT by mathurine (ua)
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To: Hank Rearden

"And guess what? Big Government control-freak, empire-building, money-squandering politicians will ensure we're perpetually "at war".

I'm interested: how did Big Government control-freak, empire-building, money-squandering politicians precipitate the war on terror?


164 posted on 05/22/2005 8:21:30 PM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first war on terrorism.)
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To: Caipirabob
Well, I hope he's ready to review the "Constutional Gaurantee for right to Air Travel" with the judge and jury when the time comes.

The Constitution enumerates the legitimate powers of government. If it isn't clearly stated in the Constitution, then government is coloring outside the lines.

A free people have EVERY freedom not explicitly limited by the legitimate powers of government.

Our Founders were very VERY smart. They knew the world would change. That is why the Constitution LIMITS government, while giving people UNLIMITED freedom.

Any government official who fails a quiz on this topic should be summarily executed for capital stupidity.

165 posted on 05/22/2005 8:21:36 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: dsc
...Big Government control-freak, empire-building, money-squandering politicians...

Quintuply redundant.

The "war" is an excuse to bag and tag the sheeple. A noble cause perverted by control freaks. To hell with our government. They are no better than the Taliban.

166 posted on 05/22/2005 8:25:11 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: dsc

That wasn't my point. My point was that now, and forevermore, every expansion of government, every spending bill, every stupid rule that screws up our lives - will be "justified" because we're "at war with the terrorists and if you don't agree/do/pay/submit, the terrorists win."


167 posted on 05/22/2005 8:30:20 PM PDT by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: eno_

"Nixonian overreach"

Scuze me?


168 posted on 05/22/2005 8:31:02 PM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first war on terrorism.)
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To: Hank Rearden

"That wasn't my point. My point was that now, and forevermore, every expansion of government, every spending bill, every stupid rule that screws up our lives - will be "justified" because we're "at war with the terrorists and if you don't agree/do/pay/submit, the terrorists win."

That seems to be a real danger, but it looks like a linear projection to me.

Another possibility is that we will win both the war on terror and the left's war on America.


169 posted on 05/22/2005 8:37:10 PM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first war on terrorism.)
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To: FreeReign

"How do you know if a person driving a car who is not exhibiting criminal behavior is an illegal alien who doesn't have a drivers license?"

No, he's right, that could be done. Most of us are blissfully unaware of how much information there is in the public domain. Detectives and bill collectors are not.

The problem I see with it is that some people who shouldn't be doing it would want to: boneheads, bullies, etc.

But that's where the bond comes in. None of them would have enough money to keep posting those bonds over and over again, so the bad apples would weed themselves out (to mix metaphors).


170 posted on 05/22/2005 8:43:57 PM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first war on terrorism.)
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To: dsc

Nixon invented the EPA.

"We are all Keynsians now."

Yeah, he got a bum rap in some ways, but he was no prize.


171 posted on 05/22/2005 8:47:16 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: dsc
Possibly, but with two Big Government parties, we're going to have to do some serious housecleaning to stop this train. Both Big Government parties are hell-bent on grabbing as much power and loot as they possibly can.

Either we strangle that inclination, or the United States stops - one or the other will happen. The Republican Party of Goldwater and to some extent Reagan is long dead and gone; don't be fooled by the name used by the new owners.

172 posted on 05/22/2005 10:10:14 PM PDT by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: eno_

"Nixon invented the EPA..."We are all Keynsians now."

Okay, those are two big black eyes, but as you said he got a bum rap in a lot of ways.


173 posted on 05/22/2005 10:36:35 PM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first war on terrorism.)
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To: Hank Rearden

I will admit that Bush has disappointed me on a number of issues.


174 posted on 05/22/2005 10:37:58 PM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first war on terrorism.)
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To: Racehorse
Will Pat be making an appearance at the Manchester Airport? :-)

No, but I think one of his 'friends' may have been there...

175 posted on 05/23/2005 2:58:01 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: Dada Orwell
"In a free country you do not need government permission to travel."

You do if you're on someone else's plane. We'll see how jailbirds fly.

176 posted on 05/23/2005 3:13:45 AM PDT by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: KDD
...The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power.

Orwell saw the truth...

Ayn Rand had some thoughts, as well...

...from Atlas Shrugged-

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another—their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich—will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt—and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard—the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money—the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law—men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims—then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them.

But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion—when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed.

Money is so noble a medium that is does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked, 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world? You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood—money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves—slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer, Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers—as industrialists... - excerpt

177 posted on 05/23/2005 3:16:39 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: Dada Orwell
No one is stopping this guy from traveling. He will only be stopped from flying. He can still walk, drive, hitchhike, whatever.

Carolyn

178 posted on 05/23/2005 3:20:02 AM PDT by CDHart (The world has become a lunatic asylum and the lunatics are in charge.)
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To: CDHart
"No one is stopping this guy from traveling. He will only be stopped from flying. He can still walk, drive, hitchhike, whatever."

And when the Jihadis detonate some suicide car bombs at elementary schools, malls, etc., what then? ID checkpoints for drivers, .5 mile "vehicle exclusion zones" around schools, malls, shopping centers? Fix the problem don't eliminate the freedoms. Terrorists are winning the airline battle, their job is to terrify, not win the war.

179 posted on 05/23/2005 3:42:09 AM PDT by Drago
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To: eno_
We need some Republicans with enough balls to do it.
180 posted on 05/23/2005 3:47:28 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: Always A Marine; Mulder
If we don't wake up, grow up, and end this lunacy, a handful of terrorists will have gotten their way.

Too late... The cost to America is far more than the 3000 lives lost. The entire country is now subject to the whims of the beaurocrats, and their too-late responses!

There is nothing that will make us safe from a terrorist intending to kill people, or destroy property. they prefer the killing...

They won, as soon as we started looking over our own citizens...

181 posted on 05/23/2005 4:02:19 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: Moral Hazard; B Knotts
Thousands of people were killed on 9/11 because of lax security at airports.

Both wrong. Thousands dead because two planes were flown into the WTC and one into the Pentagon. If they had not done this on 9/11, then they would have killed, with another means, at another time...

THERE IS NO SECURITY AT AIRPORTS, ONLY HASSLE FOR THE PASSENGERS! You can keep thinking you're safe...

With the procedures we now have, we are losing BILLIONS of DOLLARS in WASTE and DELAY... not to mention the additional inconveninces, and loss of privacy.

They have won the first round, and the second round...

182 posted on 05/23/2005 4:09:09 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: KDD
Joseph Sobran:

For all that, we no longer fully have what our ancestors, who framed and ratified our Constitution, thought of as freedom — a careful division of power that prevents power from becoming concentrated and unlimited. The word they usually used for concentrated power was consolidated — a rough synonym for fascist. And the words they used for any excessive powers claimed or exercised by the state were usurped and tyrannical. They would consider the modern “liberal” state tyrannical in principle; they would see in it not the opposite of the fascist, communist, and socialist states, but their sister.

If Washington and Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton could come back, the first thing they’d notice would be that the federal government now routinely assumes thousands of powers never assigned to it — powers never granted, never delegated, never enumerated. These were the words they used, and it’s a good idea for us to learn their language. They would say that we no longer live under the Constitution they wrote. And the Americans of a much later era — the period from Cleveland to Coolidge, for example — would say we no longer live even under the Constitution they inherited and amended.

I call the present system “Post–Constitutional America.” As I sometimes put it, the U.S. Constitution poses no serious threat to our form of government.

183 posted on 05/23/2005 5:30:12 AM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: eno_
The same way the identity of bail jumpers is confirmed. This is why people who hunt bail jumpers have to post large bonds, which they lose if they get it wrong. This way, only real illegals get hassled, and, if a mistake is made, restitution is made, too. It would work. We need some Republicans with enough balls to do it

You're overlooking the fact that Republicans have their own reasons for wanting illegal immigration.

184 posted on 05/23/2005 3:53:42 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Disregard the law of unintended consequences at your own risk.)
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Freedom BUMP!


185 posted on 05/23/2005 3:56:14 PM PDT by Drago
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To: Dada Orwell
"In a free country you do not need government permission to travel."

The airlines are a private business. They can establish whatever rules they want to. If the FAA requires them to abide by certain rules (like each state requires a license and reg. and insurance to drive) and you don't like the rules, find another means of traveling.

Taxis don't require ID. Call a cab, dude.

I thought the FreeState project was a good idea at first, shake things up. Now I've got to wonder who's involved with it.
186 posted on 05/23/2005 4:23:06 PM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Liberals are blind. They are the dupes of Leftists who know exactly what they're doing.)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe

The "private business" thing is a thin figleaf.

For starters, I'd like my FIFTEEN BILLION back from those tax-eating scum.

Second, anything the government does that is not explicitly authorized by the Constitution is illegal and illegitimate. As a Republican, you know that, right? Or, perhaps, you are of a political persuation that does not believe that.


187 posted on 05/23/2005 6:11:45 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: eno_
I'm a Jeffersonian liberal. I do believe in limited government and making our current government smaller and reducing regulation.

That said, we currently have certain rules in place (like what can be broadcast over the airwaves). Whether those rules and all rules should be dropped (more of a Libertarian stance than a Conservative) they are in force. The airlines are a private business, just as the farmers are, who also receive a lot of tax money (whether that is right or wrong is again another issue) and they have their own set rules and rules forced upon them (as the FDA has rules for farmers).

I believe this guy in NH is going about his cause in a wrong manner and is only going to harm his reputation and that of his cause. This is post 9/11 and we're trying to prevent terrorists from hijacking another plane or otherwise kill people.

I believe walking down the street waving a firearm in your hand where it is illegal to do so (even though we have the 2nd Amendment) is a foolish way to fight for CCW laws. I believe it harms the individual (police record) and the CCW cause.

But hey, that's just me.
188 posted on 05/24/2005 8:09:02 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Liberals are blind. They are the dupes of Leftists who know exactly what they're doing.)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe
I believe walking down the street waving a firearm in your hand where it is illegal to do so...

New Hampshire is an unlicensed open carry state, by the way. Since we have a 14th Amendment, one wonders why every state is not so blessed?

This guy is not "waving a firearm" which would be rude no matter if it was illegal. He is a decent man challenging a corrupt, illegitimate, and illegal system. He ought to get a medal.

189 posted on 05/24/2005 9:13:33 AM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: eno_
And if he were a Wahhabist from Saudi Arabia originally but now an American citizen, would you similarly recommend him for a citation for such an action?
190 posted on 05/24/2005 11:30:00 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Liberals are blind. They are the dupes of Leftists who know exactly what they're doing.)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe

Sure, because the Wahhabist would be further highlighting the fact we are not kicking Wahhabists out wholesale.

We have existing provisions in immigration and naturalization laws to prohibit such people, and those laws were applied to both Nazis and Communists, stripping them of citizenship in many cases.

Any other brilliant questions?


191 posted on 05/24/2005 12:28:36 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: eno_

"Any other brilliant questions?"

Not until I get some "brilliant" answers.

Try dropping the attitude and just discuss. I haven't impressed you and you haven't impressed me. The sarcasm just destroys the exchange.


192 posted on 05/24/2005 2:07:52 PM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Liberals are blind. They are the dupes of Leftists who know exactly what they're doing.)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe
The sarcasm just destroys the exchange.

Aren't we "sensitive."

The fact is, all the intrusive crap that homelAm3 "security" has foisted on us has no basis in an actual need to improve security. It is ALL about strengthing our chains.

To hell with them, and to hell with anyone so ignorant they can't remember that we faced far graver threats without requiring IDs for travel. Anyone that ignorant deserves the slavery and lack of actual security they get.

193 posted on 05/24/2005 2:52:01 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: Dada Orwell
"In a free country you do not need government permission to travel."

On that, he is absolutly correct. He's perfectly free to walk to any destination within the United States he so choses. He can drive (he better have a license for that however) or swim, or flp his arms and fly himself. But nothing in Constitution says that an airline, bus or ship must transport his stupid ass anywhere.

194 posted on 05/24/2005 2:57:13 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Dada Orwell

Your wish to be arrested will be honored sir. Turn around and assume the position. Thank you.


195 posted on 05/24/2005 2:58:02 PM PDT by RetiredArmy (The Republican Party is now OFFICIALLY The RINOcratic Party!)
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To: SamAdams76
If the airport authorities are smart, they will be ready for him and won't give him any time to turn things into a media circus.

He'll never make it as far as the TSA checkpoing without ID. You can't even get a boarding pass without showing ID to the airline agent. The local cops will haul his ass away before he ever sees a "Gobermnt Agent".

196 posted on 05/24/2005 3:01:15 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: eno_
OK, so tell me when the Constitution was amended to enable the government to infringe on what was previously an absolute right.

Show me where the Constitution ever said there was such a right?

All the Constitution says was that any citizen was free to travel from state to state. He's still is free to travel from NH to any state he choses, but if he wants to do it by commercial air, the rule says he has to identify himself.

197 posted on 05/24/2005 3:12:54 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Ditto

He is also free to track down and harass the jackboots that keep his from his natural freedoms.

The correct response to a government that erodes our freedoms bit by bit, is to ruin the lives of its agents, bit by bit.


198 posted on 05/24/2005 7:30:21 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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To: eno_
He is also free to track down and harass the jackboots that keep his from his natural freedoms.

Excuse me, but what natural freedom are they keeping him from? Have you ever tried reading the Constitution, or do you just like to imagine what it is supposed to say?

I suppose he is "free to harass the jackboots" but I can also tell you that if he does, they will also be free to put one of their boots up his behind and perhaps knock a little common sense into him.

199 posted on 05/24/2005 7:42:15 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Ditto
free to put one of their boots up his behind and perhaps knock a little common sense into him

Ahhh, isn't it great to hear people rooting FOR the Jackbooted Thugs?

Do you think these no-necks would be smart enough to figure out why they have been subscribed to every kiddie porn site on Earth?

Why their picture is on alt.com seeking dom leather boy partners?

Why a woman calls his wife every few days and makes a lame excuse about a wrong number?

Taking down a JBT's reputation is simple, even if, unlike the Boston FBI office, they aren't criminals already. Finding dirt on cops is about as hard as finding dirty water in the Charles. And if you can't find any, lie, like a cop would do.

200 posted on 05/25/2005 8:00:51 PM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending.)
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