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US 'torpedoed Kursk nuclear sub'
The Australian ^ | May 09, 2005 | Daniel Stacey, London

Posted on 05/22/2005 2:27:06 PM PDT by demlosers

A FORMER British military official has backed a sensational claim that the Russian nuclear submarine, the Kursk, was torpedoed by US forces in August 2000.

An official inquest concluded that the disaster – in which all 118 crew drowned in the Barents Sea, 135km off the Russian coast – was caused by an accidental explosion of an onboard torpedo.

But Maurice Stradling, a former torpedo engineer and a key figure in the original investigation, believes a new French documentary, The Kursk: A Submarine in Troubled Waters, should change world opinion on the sinking.

"On the balance of probabilities, the Kursk was sunk by an American MK-48 torpedo," said Mr Stradling, formerly a senior member of the British Defence Ministry.

BBC editor Nick Fraser called the claim a "pack of lies" and has refused to air the documentary, which attracted a record audience of more than 4 million when it screened on French TV.

he BBC used Mr Stradling as its main authority for a documentary it made in 2001 – What Sank the Kursk?, in which Mr Stradling theorised that the sinking was caused by the malfunctioning of an old-fashioned HTP torpedo.

Mr Stradling, who also appears in the new French documentary, said: "At the time (2001), that was a perfectly reasonable film, given the facts as we knew them then, when there seemed to be no third-party involvement,"

The new explanation for the Kursk's downing is based on film footage of a hole in the side of the vessel, and evidence placing US submarines in the area at the time it was sunk.

The French film shows stills of the Kursk raised above the water after being salvaged, with a precise circular hole in its right side. The hole clearly bends inwards, consistent with an attack from outside the submarine.

A US military source in the documentary declares the hole to be the trademark evidence of an American MK-48 torpedo, which is made to melt cleanly through steel sheet due to a mechanism at its tip that combusts copper.

The film suggests the attack happened while two US submarines, the Toledo and Memphis, were shadowing the Kursk in a routine military exercise.

The documentary says the Toledo accidentally collided with the Kursk, at which point the Russian submarine opened its torpedo tubes, leading to an attack from the Memphis, which was protecting the damaged Toledo while it retreated.

The cause of the sinking was covered up at the time in an act of diplomacy between then US presidents Bill Clinton and Russian President Vladimir Putin – a deal that included the cancellation of $US10 billion ($12.5 billion) of Russian debt, the film states.

After the documentary received its only public broadcast in Britain, some claimed the Russian navy had drilled the hole and fed doctored footage to the film-makers to create a false impression.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: eurotrash; kursk; mikerivero; pantload; submarine; tinfoil; turass
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1 posted on 05/22/2005 2:27:06 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: demlosers

French documentary

Nuff Said.

2 posted on 05/22/2005 2:29:52 PM PDT by Michael Goldsberry (an enemy of islam -- Joe Boucher; Leapfrog; Dr.Zoidberg; Lazamataz; ...)
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To: demlosers

Can I laugh now?


3 posted on 05/22/2005 2:29:58 PM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: demlosers
But Maurice Stradling, a former torpedo engineer and a key figure in the original investigation, believes a new French documentary, The Kursk: A Submarine in Troubled Waters, should change world opinion on the sinking.

French documentary.... Har har har! These are the same stinking ingrates who swallow Michael Moore and his lies whole. If they're a sucker for the Gorilla from Greenwich Village, they're a sucker for anything.

4 posted on 05/22/2005 2:30:25 PM PDT by Yossarian (Remember: NOT ALL HEART ATTACKS HAVE TRADITIONAL SYMPTOMS)
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To: demlosers

Sorry. I should have asked, "may I laugh now?"


5 posted on 05/22/2005 2:30:56 PM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: Leapfrog

Great minds think alike - I was typing while you were posting!


6 posted on 05/22/2005 2:31:09 PM PDT by Yossarian (Remember: NOT ALL HEART ATTACKS HAVE TRADITIONAL SYMPTOMS)
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To: demlosers
Cornpone Did It!
7 posted on 05/22/2005 2:31:17 PM PDT by Cornpone
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To: demlosers

I hear Newsweek is reporting the crew then tossed a Koran in the ocean.


8 posted on 05/22/2005 2:31:39 PM PDT by Darkwolf (aka Darkwolf377 lurker since'01, member since 4/'04--stop clogging me with pings!)
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To: demlosers
>the Kursk was sunk by an American MK-48 torpedo


What, this old thing?! Well,
it's good to know standard stuff
can take out bad guys . . .

9 posted on 05/22/2005 2:32:38 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: demlosers

10 posted on 05/22/2005 2:32:53 PM PDT by ProudVet77 (Warning: Frequent sarcastic posts)
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To: demlosers
" French documentary"

The type of phrase as "virtuous prostitute"
11 posted on 05/22/2005 2:33:13 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland
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To: demlosers

I'm sure this will be a lead story on the Today show tomorrow.


12 posted on 05/22/2005 2:33:14 PM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: demlosers
" French documentary"

The same type of phrase as "virtuous prostitute"
13 posted on 05/22/2005 2:33:35 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland
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To: demlosers

I expect Newsweek will waste no time in picking this story up and running with it.


14 posted on 05/22/2005 2:34:07 PM PDT by SusaninOhio
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To: demlosers
believes a new French documentary

Stopped reading it there. Simply silly.

15 posted on 05/22/2005 2:34:12 PM PDT by Paul_Denton (Get the U.N. out of the U.S. and U.S. out of the U.N.!)
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To: demlosers

Oh, please.


16 posted on 05/22/2005 2:34:17 PM PDT by Bahbah (Something wicked this way comes)
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To: demlosers
a key figure in the original investigation, believes a new French documentary, The Kursk: A Submarine in Troubled Waters, should change world opinion on the sinking.

Ah yes, the french. The has-beens. The losers.

The propaganda of choice at the beginning of the 21st Century.
If your dreams of greatness and glory are long, long past, the next best source of satisfaction is to bring the successful, the innovators, the truly great, down.

Works for the SMs*. Why not for the french?
If you're going to lie and invent things, do it on a grand scale. If it pits the competition against each other, a welcome bonus.

.

* SM© = Sweet Muslims

17 posted on 05/22/2005 2:34:28 PM PDT by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen, ignorance and stupidity.)
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To: Leapfrog

Is that a French Documentary by Micheal Moore?


18 posted on 05/22/2005 2:35:38 PM PDT by Chgogal
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To: Doohickey; judicial meanz; submarinerswife; PogySailor; chasio649; gobucks; Bottom_Gun; Dog Gone; ..

Snickering ping.


19 posted on 05/22/2005 2:35:53 PM PDT by SmithL (Proud Submariner)
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To: demlosers

So it happened on Bill's watch. This could have happened, I see no reason it couldn't have. But having said that it could be a M. Moore type of slime piece. And bear no facts other than a sub sank.

I say so what, if the story was true they shouldn't hav eopened their tubes.


20 posted on 05/22/2005 2:36:15 PM PDT by stockpirate (Kerry & Democrats; supported, financed, trained, guided, revered, in favor of, Communists.)
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To: demlosers

I though modern american torpedoes are designed to blow up under the vessel and not designed to impact. Blowing up under the target causes the structure to fracture.


21 posted on 05/22/2005 2:37:01 PM PDT by Always Independent
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To: theFIRMbss
I don't think that's a Mark 48. AFAIK, no surface ships carry the 48.

Those things are huge compared to what we had on DLG's. I don't recall the number but they were closer to 15" diameter and about 10' long while the Mark 48 is about 20" in diameter and close to 20' long.

22 posted on 05/22/2005 2:39:05 PM PDT by Bob
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To: demlosers

Paging Mike Rivero....


23 posted on 05/22/2005 2:43:30 PM PDT by csvset
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To: demlosers
The film suggests the attack happened while two US submarines, the Toledo and Memphis, were shadowing the Kursk in a routine military exercise.

Guess it wasn't so routine, after all.

This is obviously one of those so carefully orchestrated conspiracies. You have, what, 260 plus men who have been ordered to keep these events secret all these years under pain of assassination. Putin wants it kept secret as much as did clinton and now, Bush.

We also know this because there has never, ever in history been a case of Russian incompetence. Let's get the truth out now!

24 posted on 05/22/2005 2:43:33 PM PDT by stevem
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To: Bob
>I don't think that's a Mark 48. AFAIK, no surface ships carry the 48

You're probably right.
I trusted the net, googled
for the title, and

just looked for the best
picture Google came up with.
It's from this site, here:

  MK-48 ADCAP TORPEDO

25 posted on 05/22/2005 2:43:52 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: demlosers

Was there supposed to be a downside to this story?


26 posted on 05/22/2005 2:45:29 PM PDT by 4woodenboats (I'm not a big morning guy, but still, I Praise The Lord everytime I see one!)
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To: demlosers

France should simply rename itself to Democrat Underground and be done with it.


27 posted on 05/22/2005 2:45:46 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Not Elected Pope Since 4/19/2005.)
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To: demlosers

They must be using Newsweek sources.


28 posted on 05/22/2005 2:48:43 PM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
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To: SmithL
2000

US to Russia....do you need assistance?....Nyet!

US to Russia.....Prepared to assist.....Nyet!

US to Russia.....Rescue teams at ready status, your call.....Nyet!

2005, Kursk sunk by Mk 48

Russia to US.....Da!

29 posted on 05/22/2005 2:55:38 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
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To: demlosers
This also reminds me of the 747 that blew up over Long Island. The conspiracy people said it was downed by a missile during some practice - so 500 sailors and who else are said to keep quiet? Show me anyone who wouldn't take 100K dollars from a tabloid and spill the beans so to speak .... same here. You mean all those guys on our subs would remain quiet? I don't think so.
30 posted on 05/22/2005 2:58:15 PM PDT by SkyDancer ("If Love Can't Buy You Happiness, You Don't Know Where To Shop")
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To: demlosers

Bush's fault?


31 posted on 05/22/2005 3:00:10 PM PDT by DJ Taylor (Once again our country is at war, and once again the Democrats have sided with our enemy.)
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To: demlosers
A FORMER British military official has backed a sensational claim that the Russian nuclear submarine, the Kursk, was torpedoed by US forces in August 2000.

Must be a drinking buddy of Michael Rivero.

32 posted on 05/22/2005 3:01:42 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: demlosers
Hmm. So what the French are actually saying is: Clinton Lied, People Died? Glad we could get that cleared up.
33 posted on 05/22/2005 3:02:54 PM PDT by kingu
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To: SkyDancer
This also reminds me of the 747 that blew up over Long Island. The conspiracy people said it was downed by a missile during some practice - so 500 sailors and who else are said to keep quiet? Show me anyone who wouldn't take 100K dollars from a tabloid and spill the beans so to speak .... same here. You mean all those guys on our subs would remain quiet? I don't think so.

Actually, this one was the real deal. Over 183 people saw a missile streak up from the ground, including 2 on-duty National Guardsmen, one of whom was a missile-profile expert.

I don't buy for a second that the US government did it.

But I'd buy that a terrorist with a shoulder fired (or boat-mounted) missile sat off Long Island Sound and fired one. You know how quick our government is to deny terrorism as a cause for ANYthing.

34 posted on 05/22/2005 3:06:06 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Not Elected Pope Since 4/19/2005.)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: demlosers

WaitJustaMinnit!!!

The French film shows stills of the Kursk raised above the water after being salvaged, with a precise circular hole in its right side. The hole clearly bends inwards, consistent with an attack from outside the submarine.

Now read this:

Kursk Submarine Cutting Services

In November 2000 Oil States MCS Ltd of Barrow-in-Furness, UK supplied their Abrasive Water Jet Cutting equipment to cut access holes through the super structure and pressure hull of the sunken Russian submarine ‘Kursk’. The vessel was located on the seabed of the Barents sea in 108m water depth after being lost with all hands in August this year. The cutting operation was necessary to allow Russian divers to gain access to recover the bodies of the service personnel inside and investigate the circumstances of the sinking.

Originally it had been intended that other mechanical cutting methods might be used for entering the submarine. Following successful pre-mobilisation cutting trials on a specimen of the submarine’s super structure and pressure hull, it became clear that the Abrasive Water Jet cutting system was the best method to use. In all 11 cuts were made on the ‘Kursk’ using the Abrasive Water Jet cutting system, 3 pressure release holes in the 400 bar (5800psi) ballast air piping system, 4 through the outer super structure, and 1 pressure release hole and 3 diver entry holes in the pressure hull. The cuts through the outer hull were complicated by the presence of a thick outer skin of elastomer, which called for modified cutting methods. As the project developed the manipulators and operating procedures were modified to suit the particular conditions of each cut on the ‘Kursk’ as they became known, the 1.2m (48”) diameter access hole through the 50mm (2”) thick pressure hull being completed within an hour.

Source:  http://www.oilstates.com/solutions/offshore/decomissioning/abraisive%20cutting/file.asp?id=126

So much for "expert" testimony...

36 posted on 05/22/2005 3:07:53 PM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: DJ Taylor

One of these days the French are going to remember why they are free and not part of Germany. I wonder how it would go down if we had to do it all oer again, would the US bail them out? Losers..


37 posted on 05/22/2005 3:09:05 PM PDT by realnola (-realnola.com)
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To: demlosers

I can't wait to see what 60 minutes and Newsweek have to say about this.


38 posted on 05/22/2005 3:09:37 PM PDT by rolling_stone
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To: demlosers; DJ Taylor; Doohickey; judicial meanz; submarinerswife; PogySailor; chasio649; gobucks; ..

...and so much for Frog "documentaries"...

See #36

39 posted on 05/22/2005 3:16:17 PM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: Always Independent
Click to launch

Click the fish

40 posted on 05/22/2005 3:17:48 PM PDT by SmithL (Proud Submariner)
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To: realnola
Remember when east and west Germany were reuniting.

All of europe was talking about what to rename the new Germany, except Germany who were talking about what to rename France.

41 posted on 05/22/2005 3:17:59 PM PDT by Dinsdale
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To: SkyDancer
You mean all those guys on our subs would remain quiet? I don't think so.

Precisely. You can't launch a torpedo without everyone on board knowing it.

42 posted on 05/22/2005 3:18:10 PM PDT by squidly
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To: realnola

Personnally, I think we should invade France and and make Germany take it back!


43 posted on 05/22/2005 3:19:10 PM PDT by deaconjim (Freep the world!)
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To: theFIRMbss
I'm not exactly sure which torpedo that is in the picture, there are a couple of surface ship launched torps that look similar. I think they are of the Mk-44/46 variety. I am absolutely certain that fish is not a Mk-48. Further Mk-48s do not sink their targets by blowing nice neat holes in the outer casing. They sink their targets by blowing bloody great holes in their pressure hulls. This story broke a week or two ago on the submarine BBSs. Just my opinion, but I consider it one step below "BigFoot Stole Elvis's Brain!" Considering the source, you could make that two steps.
44 posted on 05/22/2005 3:22:11 PM PDT by 75thOVI (Any ship can be a submarine...............once!)
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To: SmithL

Bow shot? Tricky!


45 posted on 05/22/2005 3:22:21 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
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To: demlosers; All

Uh .. excuse me .. the hull of the ship PROVED THE EXPLOSION WAS INTERNAL - NOT EXTERNAL. History Channel or Discovery showed pictures of the hull being removed from the water - the pictures make it obvious the explosion took place inside the hull. The metal was pealed back consistent with an internal explosion.

Seeing as how History and Discovery are both from the liberal camp - I'm quite sure if there was any doubt as to what happened to the Kursk - they would have been sure to point it out. Of course, it did happen under Clinton's watch - but seeing as how the liberals hate the military - I don't think they would have kept it quiet.

This is just pile on to damage America now that Europeans are beginning to see Bush in a good light. I mean .. we can't have the world seeing this cowboy in a good light .. can we ..??


46 posted on 05/22/2005 3:25:25 PM PDT by The Final Harvest (President Bush: "America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth")
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To: demlosers

It could well be that the Russian submarine Krusk was sunk by U. S. subs. In the first place, this huge monsterous Russian nuclear sub, calld "Mongo" because of its huge size, was not on a training mission, it was on war patrol. It's mission was to take out U. S. carriers or other major U. S. naval targets if ordered to do so.

Every Russian sub of this type was always trailed by U.S. subs as a defensive measure, just as Russian subs trailed our boomers when they could.

In the world of underwater warfare it is universally understood that the opening of torpedo or missile doors was the signal to trailing subs that a tarpedo or missile was about to be launched.

If the Krusk opened its tarpedo tube doors or missle silo doors it was asking for trouble.


47 posted on 05/22/2005 3:27:39 PM PDT by R.W.Ratikal
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To: demlosers

Thats not how a MK-48 Works


48 posted on 05/22/2005 3:29:35 PM PDT by SShultz460
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To: demlosers

We shouldn't dismiss this report so quickly. Bush #41 was actually commanding those American subs, on a top secret mission to plant WMD in Iraq (using a round about course to throw off suspicion), in preparations for an October surprise in that year's elections. The Kursk wold have spilled the beans had it survived. As things turned out, it's sinking forced GHWB to jettison the WMD, forcing GWB to lie about Iraqi WMD. IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT!!


49 posted on 05/22/2005 3:29:37 PM PDT by LRS
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To: SmithL
Now dat's a 48! My wife's old ship, the L.Y.Spear (AS-36) is going to be used in a sinkex this Summer. I hope I can find pictures on the net after it happens. I have nothing against the ship personally, (Quite a lot of "Green Memories" in fact.) It's just that anyone who knows the story of the Mk-XIV knows that the highest calling of any retired warship is for a Mk-48 sinkex. This time we'll damn sure know they work!
50 posted on 05/22/2005 3:29:55 PM PDT by 75thOVI (Any ship can be a submarine...............once!)
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