Posted on 05/25/2005 3:41:22 AM PDT by billorites
No. Science is about things that turn up when one investigates nature itself. Political and military power can only bury the truth for a time, in a place. The Church supported geocentrism over the growing evidence against it. For a time in a place, it won. Stalin supported Lysenkoism over genetics and evolution. For a time in a place, he won. However, nature was still out there to be investigated and there were no victories over that.
The evidence doesn't go away. You don't change it in the streets. The diversity of life on Earth shows common descent with variation and natural selection. If it was suppressed today and all the books were burned, someone would figure it out again in a week.
Reconcile this with the fact that places like MIT are copying the evolutionary process and using genetic algorithms as efficient problem solving strategies?
True.
G. A. Magnini.
It would be more difficult to name a scientist in Galileo's day who did not subscribe to Aristotelianism where the "natural" sciences were concerned. Galileo represents a manner and degree of inquiry that outstripped the best of them. Fortunately he did not give up in the face of persecution.
Today the picture is much the same. The power, authority, egoism, and ignorance rests in the hands of a few who bring only unjustifiable bias to the pursuit of knowledge, namely dogmatic evolutionists.
I also think part of the problem is that creationists don't understand that evolution doesn't even attempt to provide all the answers. Evolution deals only with a limited scope, namely the development of different varieties of organisms. I can't count the number of times that creationists argue that evolution can't be true because "life can't arise from nonliving matter" or that they deride evolutionists for believing that "there was nothing and then that nothing exploded." Evolution doesn't attempt to answer the questions of the origin of the universe or even the origin of life. Even within its scope, however, scientists are more than willing to admit that they might be wrong. However, it seems that it is the details that are debatable currently. It seems unlikely that the overall idea of genetic variability leading to all the species of life will be found to be wrong. Creationists even seize upon the debate over the details, however, in a desparate attempt to show that evolution is in trouble.
Remember to include them in the "special thanks"! :-)
Now included in The List-O-Links.
Whoa, now here's an original thought. I'm a Creationist liar if I don't make Ed drink at the trough he's been led to.
Ed, the word liar has lost all meaning on these threads. But feel free to continue using it, it amuses me. :-}
What is the airspeed of an African proto-sparrow laden with army ants?
The church has changed its stance in relation to scientific discovery many times and will continue to do so. It will not accept a challenge to its spiritual authority.
BTW: I believe the Church's stance on evolution is one you would agree with, which makes most of this focus on Galileo moot. And nobody has ever discussed Bacon, Linnaeus, or Newton. Neither science and faith, nor science and Church, are in opposition except in the minds of a few. That was the central point that we seem to have strayed from.
Gimme a break, general Catholic apologetics wasn't on the table in this discussion up until now, but, as long as you've asked...
The church behaves itself better now because the rise of the nation-states and the reformation pulled it's fangs. The building in the Vatican used to house the children of jews kidnapped by the church to be raised christian didn't fall into disuse until after the US Civil War, and the church's stance on evolution didn't heel to until 1996. About the only interesting thing you've said, apropos to this debate, is "It [The Church] will not accept a challenge to its spiritual authority."
And that, dear hearts, is what has been wrong with this arrogant church for 1400 years, and why it is, quite rightly, synonymous with the bogeyman in the hearts of so many Jewish and Muslim children--way too many of their ancestors murdered by deputies of a church that "will not accept a challenge to its spiritual authority".
Lighten up a little, you'll live longer and prosper.
I provide information. Not everyone is at the same knowledge level on every subject and I find discussions go better when the participants have enough information to be on a par with one another.
True enough.
In addition, because of the pervasive poor quality of teaching the basic sciences, many people think they know a good deal that is actually incorrect. It is not their fault if they trusted their teachers and it should not be used against them to score debate type points.
It should when they let their hubris outrun their knowledge base and they attempt to score "debate type points" based on erroneous information, assumptions or assertions.
Other than that I agree with you whole heartedly.
Obviously, the willingness of some people to engage in fanatical acts for their religion does not prove the truth thereof.
Sometimes effective, but really pretty hard to call efficient, problem solving strategies, given the right problem, entailing debugging and support challenges of substantial daunt-itude.
I would classify the attitude you (accurately) describe in the first sentence as superstition, not religion. It reduces the transcendant God of true religion to the level of a primitive tribal sun/thunder/fertility/whatever god.
There is some truth to that -- crediting the church with refraining from inquisitions, etc in modern times is sort of like crediting the Democrats for not raising our taxes since January 2001.
I'll get to your rather amusing post a bit later. Duty calls!
Very interesting. Other than seeing references to his name, I didn't know about him.
Alas! It is supported increasingly by recent history, especially in Kansas.
From my vantage point, I'd say evolution *is* in trouble. Scientists are speaking out more and more about the limitations of the theory. What do you make of these two letters?
----------------
Letters to the Editor
May 25, 2005
Sir, Like many biologists, Richard Dawkins (Weekend Review, May 21) views the theory of intelligent design merely as an attack on evolution when, being essentially identical to the anthropic principle, it has far wider implications. Such ideas should not be dismissed simply because they have been hijacked by creationists. Despite Dawkins’s relentless propaganda, rational criticism of evolution and a distaste for biological reductionism do not equate to religious fundamentalism; bigotry should be resisted from whichever direction it comes.
Yours faithfully,
MILTON WAINWRIGHT, Department of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology, University of Sheffield, Sheffield S10 2TN. May 21.
-----------------------------------
From Professor Andy McIntosh
Sir, By building a straw man of creationists (supposedly) misquoting Darwin and Lewontin, Professor Dawkins labels the lot as “ignorant” and skirts the big issue — there is no hard evidence for molecules-to-man evolution.
Dawkins has long touted stories on how the eye and other organs came into being by supposed slow evolutionary processes, but there is no experimental evidence, even if one did accept the fossils as a record of such changes. Any serious thinker knows that the fossils of the “Cambrian Explosion” period, near the base of the geological column, include some of the most sophisticated eyes ever known to have existed — the compound eyes of trilobites have double calcite lenses, which defeat any slow evolutionary explanation, and, what is more, they have no precursor in the rocks.
The non-evolutionist side of the argument is growing not because of ignorance, but because of the rise of knowledge about the real facts of science without the fairytale additions of evolutionism. A growing number of academics on both sides of the Atlantic are attracted to the straightforward logic of scientific reasoning.
The logical, coded machinery of DNA and the information system it carries shout design to an unprejudiced mind. Dawkins’s defence is based not on scientific facts, but on ideology. Evolutionary thinking is teetering as a way of looking at the evidence, not because of some isolated problems here and there, but because the whole structure is scientifically wrong.
Yours faithfully,
ANDY C. McINTOSH, (Professor of Thermodynamics and Combustion Theory), Energy and Resources Research Institute, Houldsworth Building, University of Leeds, Clarendon Road, Leeds LS2 9JT. May 23.
-----------------
Stremba - literally EVERY DAY I read things from scientists telling me evolution has problems and alone can't account for the incredible complexity and biological systems on Earth and that ID should be given a fair shake. What am I and the general public to think? I mean, if it (evolution) were a SOLID theory, would we even be having this discussion?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
MM
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.