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Which kills more: ideology or religion?
The Spectator ^ | 28 May 05 | Andrew Kenney

Posted on 05/26/2005 10:30:32 AM PDT by xzins

Which kills more: ideology or religion? Andrew Kenny

The sun set on the 20th century more than four years ago but you can still see a blood-red glow on the horizon. The century that saw unprecedented technological progress also saw unprecedented slaughter. Previously, religion had served mankind’s deep needs for explanation, order, spiritual comfort and transcendental meaning. Now a new and hideous thing was summoned up to serve the same needs. The thing was ideology, and in a few decades it caused more bloodshed than millennia of religion. It was darker and more irrational, and contained within it something unknown to all the Religions of the Book: a death wish. Religious leaders, however bad they may be, however prone to hubris and hatred, are constrained by fear of God above and by ancient tradition and wisdom. Ideological leaders have no such constraints.

Recently there have been hysterical attacks on the new Pope Benedict, including the charge that he has the blood of millions of Africans on his hands because of the Church’s ban on condoms in a continent ravaged by Aids. I live in Africa, I am an atheist and I think the Church’s prohibition of contraception is wrong, but I want to defend the Pope. To do so, I must compare the good and bad of the Church in Africa with those of the ideologies.

Ideology comes in three colours: red, brown and green, representing Marxism, fascism and environmental extremism. Judged on sheer evil, the worst crime in history was brown, the Nazi genocide, although the reds slaughtered more people. The death toll (difficult to measure) is roughly, Hitler’s holocaust 6 million, Stalin’s famine and terror 8 million, and Mao’s famine 30 million. But the greens have topped them all. In a single crime they have killed about 50 million people. In purely numerical terms, it was the worst crime of the 20th century. It took place in the USA in 1972. It was the banning of DDT.

Malaria is one of the most terrible diseases mankind has ever faced. In the 16th and 17th centuries it decimated Europe (it is mentioned in Shakespeare’s plays as ‘ague’ and probably killed Cromwell). It brought death over the world on a gigantic scale. In 1939 Paul Muller, a Swiss chemist, discovered that a synthetic chemical, DDT (dichloro-diphenyl-trichloroethane), killed flies, mosquitoes and other invertebrates. It was used to stop a typhus epidemic in Italy in 1943. US troops in the second world war dusted themselves with it against lice. It proved spectacularly successful against malaria-bearing mosquitoes. In 1948 Muller won the Nobel Prize for his work on DDT. By 1967, thanks to DDT, malaria had been eradicated from all rich countries, and was being eradicated in Latin America, tropical Asia and three countries in Africa. In 1970 the US National Academy of Sciences stated: ‘To only a few chemicals does man owe so great a debt as to DDT.... In little more than two decades, DDT has prevented 500 million human deaths, due to malaria, that otherwise would have been inevitable.’

In 1971 DDT was poised to rid the world of malaria. In 1972 it was banned.

The ban, decided in the USA by William Ruckelshaus, an administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, was a travesty. Ruckelshaus ignored the massive evidence that DDT was not harmful to man or wildlife and refused to give reasons for the ban. It was purely ideological. This was the time of Rachel Carson’s mendacious book Silent Spring, about the horrors of pesticides, when the newly emerging green ideology was looking for a cause célèbre. Study after study has shown that DDT, even when abused, as it certainly was, did not cause cancer or serious disease in humans, did not harm bald eagles or peregrine falcons, and did not cause eggshell thinning. None of this mattered. The greens, leaning heavily on Ruckelshaus, were determined to ban it and did so, with catastrophic consequences for poor people with dark skins. Tens of millions of humans were sacrificed on the green altar.

The US extended the ban overseas by various measures, including refusing aid to countries that used DDT. Other rich countries, urged on by their greens, followed suit. Malaria, which had been in retreat, came surging back, killing multitudes. It is estimated that more than 2 million people now die every year of malaria, most of them in Africa. In 1996, under green pressure, South Africa stopped using DDT. Malaria deaths immediately shot up. South Africa went back to DDT, and deaths fell away. The South African government, which talks nonsense about Aids, is sensible on malaria, allowing DDT to be sprayed on the inside of dwellings, its best use. To some extent the rich countries have relaxed their ban on DDT but prohibitions remain, including from the EU, and nothing is done by them to encourage this cheap, safe, highly effective method of eradicating malaria.

I have heard not one word of pity or regret from any green organisation about the vast loss of human life caused by the ban on DDT. On the contrary, they seem to regard it as a glorious triumph. The likely reason was spelled out with chilling clarity by Charles Wurster of the Environmental Defence Fund in the USA in 1971 when it was pointed out to him that DDT saved the lives of poor people in poor countries. He said: ‘So what? People are the main cause of our problems. We have too many of them. We need to get rid of some of them and this is as good a way as anything.’

Here is the key difference between ideology and religion. Here is the fundamental reason why so many ideologues hate the Catholic Church. It was best articulated by Savitri Devi, sometimes called ‘Hitler’s Priestess’, the green mystic, pagan and worshipper of Hitler, who said that Christianity was ‘centred on man’ whereas her green and fascist creed was ‘centred on life’. She is right. The Bible tells men to ‘be fruitful and multiply’ and ‘have dominion’ over other living things. This is anathema to the greens. (Greens are closer to browns than they are to reds. The red ideal is progress via central committees, steel works and tons of concrete. The brown ideal is a static idyll of forests, Alsatian dogs and flaxen-haired maidens tripping through the wheatfields.) Of course when the Bible speaks of ‘man’, it means all of mankind, whereas when Devi speaks of ‘life’, she means only selected types of life, such as Aryans and tigers. Some other forms of life are best exterminated.

I have mentioned only one of the crimes of the ideologues, although the worst. In Africa they have also caused dreadful misery by promoting destructive policies such as command economies and by financing and encouraging calamitous leaders such as Julius Nyerere, who drove the economy of Tanzania to destitution.

The Pope in Africa follows the Biblical injunction. He is for human life. His guides are the enduring truths of his faith and the Word of God. These, and not the latest political fashion or trend in sociology departments, are what direct him. However, the Catholic prohibition on contraception does not seem to have any Biblical foundation, apart from the story of Onan spilling his seed on the ground, which is a special case. It seems more likely to have come from Aristotle, the source of much bad doctrine. It is illogical to allow contraception by the rhythm method while banning other methods. Why is it more natural to study a calendar before engaging in sexual congress than to put a bit of rubber over your winky? However, this is the teaching. What harm has it done?

Aids is devastating Africa, even if the exact scale of the devastation is not well known. Condoms are an effective barrier against the HIV virus (despite silly attempts to pretend otherwise). However, in South Africa it is believed that a high proportion of infection comes from ‘non-consensual sex’, where the man is never going to use a condom, even if the Pope orders him to do so. African women tell us that their husbands and lovers would beat them up if they asked them to use them. The breakdown of the black family and the high incidence of married middle-aged men copulating with young girls hugely exacerbate the spread of HIV infection. The Pope’s message of abstinence outside married life and faithfulness within it would be effective if it were followed — more so than a message of free love and condoms. In Uganda President Museveni seems to be very successful in reducing HIV incidence by calling publicly for abstinence, faithfulness and condoms, which seems to me the best possible advice. (The ideologues are furious with anyone who promotes family life and seem actually frightened of the concept of abstinence.) What the balance of effects is between the Church’s promotion of faithful family life and its ban on condoms is impossible to calculate, but my guess is that it has prevented more infections than it has caused. To say that the Pope is a mass murderer is ridiculous.

The Catholic Church has been an immeasurable force for good in Africa. It has educated, treated, fed and brought hope to a multitude of Africans. It has quietly worked against evil systems, such as apartheid and African tyranny, in just the same way that the great John Paul II worked against communism. While rich young things from international aid agencies flit briefly through Africa in designer safari jackets and air-conditioned 4x4s before settling down to cosy careers in the rich countries, humble priests and nuns spend heroic lives in little villages in the hills and bushes of Africa spreading a gospel of learning, medicine, nutrition and decency, and preaching the equal worth of all men and the promise of redemption for everybody.

As for the other charge against Pope Benedict, I found myself chatting to a most genial man in a Cape Town pub shortly after his election. I said to him that Ratzinger was in the Hitler Youth. He said cheerfully, ‘So was I!’ In 1942, at the age of 12, he was co-opted. He said it was like compulsory Boy Scouts. While Jews were being transported to the death camps elsewhere in the Reich, adolescent Germans in the Hitler Youth, like Ratzinger and my affable drinking companion, were picking up litter, making Christmas presents for poor children and helping old ladies across the street. Hardly the mark of Cain.

Pope John Paul II was the most consistent moral authority of the 20th century. Benedict seems likely to continue in his path. (Strangely enough, he looks to me rather like Richard Dawkins, the great evolutionist, atheist and Pope-basher, both having fine, handsome, intelligent faces.) I wish the Catholic Church would change its stance on contraception, but its prohibition is a small cost compared with the enormous benefit the Church brings to Africa.


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: browns; cary; catholic; churchandstate; communists; cultureofdeath; ddt; environment; environmentalists; greens; hitlerjugend; nazis; reds; religionists
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1 posted on 05/26/2005 10:30:33 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Salvation; NYer; Kolokotronis; MarMema; Travis McGee
The death toll (difficult to measure) is roughly, Hitler’s holocaust 6 million, Stalin’s famine and terror 8 million, and Mao’s famine 30 million. But the greens have topped them all. In a single crime they have killed about 50 million people. In purely numerical terms, it was the worst crime of the 20th century. It took place in the USA in 1972. It was the banning of DDT.
2 posted on 05/26/2005 10:31:22 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins

Neither.....people with evil hearts kill.


3 posted on 05/26/2005 10:32:19 AM PDT by FeeinTennessee (Visit me @ peoplepolitical.org --Fee)
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To: FeeinTennessee

I think FeeinTennessee just summed it up.


4 posted on 05/26/2005 10:34:04 AM PDT by Kace
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To: xzins
The last major war over religion was the Thirty Years War in the 17th Century.

I have to admit, though, that the Muslims are doing their darndest to make the idea fashionable again.

5 posted on 05/26/2005 10:35:37 AM PDT by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: xzins

There actually really aren't that many religious wars. And many "religious" wars really sort of fall apart as religious wars when you closely examine them.

For example, the 30 Years War was ostensibly Catholics vs. Protestants; however one of the leading figures on the "Protestant" side was France led by Catholic Cardinal Richelieu.

Iraqi Shiites almost universally fought hard against Iranian Shiites in the Iran-Iraq War, rather than assisting Iran...blood (Arab hatred of Persians) was thicker than Religion.

And over history Christians have been infinitely more efficient killers of other Christians, and Moslems more efficient killers of other Moslems, than Christians have been killing Moslems or vice-versa.


6 posted on 05/26/2005 10:36:31 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: FeeinTennessee

Neither.....people with evil hearts kill.
-----
*** EXACTLY !! ***


7 posted on 05/26/2005 10:36:41 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: xzins
Which kills more: ideology or religion?

If I have to tell you, then I believe my religion would have me kill you!........

8 posted on 05/26/2005 10:38:04 AM PDT by Red Badger (I woke up this morning and discovered my Memory Foam mattress had Alzheimer's......)
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To: Strategerist

You are correct. The 30 years war was really over the authority of the Hapsburgs and their leadership of the so-called Holy Roman Empire.


9 posted on 05/26/2005 10:38:47 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: colorado tanker

I find the info about DDT in this article to be fascinating.


10 posted on 05/26/2005 10:40:00 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: FeeinTennessee
"Neither.....people with evil hearts kill."

Concise and to the point!

You may need to give the authro of this long drawn out sloop some REAL wisdom.
11 posted on 05/26/2005 10:40:08 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: xzins

This raises another question. Is Islam both a religion and a political ideology?


12 posted on 05/26/2005 10:42:13 AM PDT by hflynn
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To: xzins
The death toll (difficult to measure) is roughly, Hitler’s holocaust 6 million, Stalin’s famine and terror 8 million, and Mao’s famine 30 million

Numbers are quite off.

Hitler killed 6M Jews, 12M total.

Stalin killed at least 20M, Mao probably closer to 100M than 30M.

13 posted on 05/26/2005 10:42:22 AM PDT by Restorer
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To: xzins; xsmommy; Howlin; neverdem; Congressman Billybob

An interesting viewpoint: "Brown" vs "green" vs "red" ...

But what "color" will he declare "international socialism" (Communism, under its green flag of class warfare and envy!) which has killed over 120 millions since Marx began its lies in Germany in the mid-1800's?


14 posted on 05/26/2005 10:42:44 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (-I can only contribute to FR monthly, but Hillary's ABBCNNBCBS contributes to her campaign every day)
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To: xzins
I find the info about DDT in this article to be fascinating.

I agree. God save us from environmentalists and other do-gooders.

15 posted on 05/26/2005 10:45:14 AM PDT by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: xzins

Then you might be interested in this:

http://www.junkscience.com/malaria_clock.htm


16 posted on 05/26/2005 10:47:29 AM PDT by mcg1969
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To: xzins
Ideology comes in three colours: red, brown and green, representing Marxism, fascism and environmental extremism.

Scratch a Green, and you'll find a Red. And Brown is simply a deeper shade of Red.

Great article. The writer has his head on straight.

17 posted on 05/26/2005 10:49:33 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: xzins; Howlin; Congressman Billybob
Stalin should be "credited" with about 32-50 million: the famine, the slow murders in the death camps, the direct murders of prisoners and his countrymen in purges and revolutions, and the death of 3-5 millions of Germans and East Europeans (prisoners and combat casualties and civilian (deliberate) deaths in the War. Then add more: the indirect murders of his people through pollution and industrial "accidents" and contamination.

Mao: Similar, but fewer numbers are available.

Add Pol Pot, Vietnam, Romania, Yugoslavia, Cuba, Angola, and East Germany and East Europe (though still far fewer).... Add ALL the current Muslim wars - since the FIRST terrorist camps (the beginnings of the re-fueled hatred against the West and Israel) were the KGB-funded anti-Isreal camps in Libya, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Lebanon.
18 posted on 05/26/2005 10:49:45 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (-I can only contribute to FR monthly, but Hillary's ABBCNNBCBS contributes to her campaign every day)
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To: xzins
I'm going with option C - Idiotology
19 posted on 05/26/2005 10:49:57 AM PDT by raivyn (<---------------- The force is strong in that one.)
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To: xzins
Which kills more: ideology or religion?

Silly silly question.
They are not mutually exclusive.

In the real world most religions do not generate insane ideology, but...

...the ones that do are intolerable among human beings, and worse than a cross between pigs and cockroaches.

20 posted on 05/26/2005 10:50:28 AM PDT by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen, ignorance and stupidity.)
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To: colorado tanker

I understood that DDT did have a direct influence on egg-shell thickness (ie, number of broken eggs in the nests.

(Doesn't excuse killing millions of innocent humans to preserve eggshells, but it should be noted.)


21 posted on 05/26/2005 10:51:23 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (-I can only contribute to FR monthly, but Hillary's ABBCNNBCBS contributes to her campaign every day)
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To: xzins
Which kills more: ideology or religion?

Which bites harder: a cougar or a mountain lion? ;)

22 posted on 05/26/2005 10:52:42 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Violence never settles anything." Genghis Khan, 1162-1227)
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To: xzins
Which kills more: ideology or religion?

In this part of the country, apparently it's shouting the following phrase:

"Hey y'all! Check this out!"

23 posted on 05/26/2005 10:52:55 AM PDT by George Smiley (This tagline deliberately targeted journalists.)
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To: xzins

What's the difference?


24 posted on 05/26/2005 10:53:27 AM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Hey! Hey! Ho! Ho! Andrew Heyward's got to go!)
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To: colorado tanker
The last major war over religion was the Thirty Years War in the 17th Century.

Ehh??? Where have you been. The last major war over religion has been going on for 1300+ years, it's called Islam and its infectious spread.

25 posted on 05/26/2005 10:53:53 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth == Christ)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE

My understanding is that almost everything in Silent Spring was junk science. That the volume of DDT in use at the time had almost zero impact on the environment. Now that I said that, I'm not sure where I read it. Perhaps in the Skeptical Environmentalist.


26 posted on 05/26/2005 10:55:59 AM PDT by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: xzins

A voice of reason.


27 posted on 05/26/2005 10:56:04 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: jb6
Ehh??? Where have you been. The last major war over religion has been going on for 1300+ years, it's called Islam and its infectious spread.

Total deaths resulting have been trivial compared to those of Communism and Fascism.

28 posted on 05/26/2005 10:56:09 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: Restorer

Hitler killed 20 million in Russia alone, part of his plan to exterminate the slav.


29 posted on 05/26/2005 10:56:10 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth == Christ)
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To: xzins
Hitler’s holocaust 6 million, Stalin’s famine and terror 8 million, and Mao’s famine 30 million. But the greens have topped them all. In a single crime they have killed about 50 million people. In purely numerical terms, it was the worst crime of the 20th century. It took place in the USA in 1972. It was the banning of DDT.

But... but... They meant well, and might have saved thousands of birds.

That alone absolves them of any and all collateral damage.

I got to go meditate now.

30 posted on 05/26/2005 10:56:34 AM PDT by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen, ignorance and stupidity.)
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To: xzins
You must be awfully young!

(Not that there's anything wrong with that!)

31 posted on 05/26/2005 10:58:35 AM PDT by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen, ignorance and stupidity.)
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To: George Smiley

"And hold muh beer!"


32 posted on 05/26/2005 10:59:01 AM PDT by tiamat (Can't sleep...clowns will get me..can't sleep...clowns will get me...can't sleep....clowns will get)
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To: jb6
Actually, Islam was stopped in the 17th Century and by the 18th was in retreat. Only recently have the Muslims been working to re-start wars of religion, beginning with the 1948 War of Independence with Israel.
33 posted on 05/26/2005 10:59:18 AM PDT by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: Strategerist
Trivial? Of the 55 or so wars going on in the world, Islam is directly involved in 50 of them. In Sudan alone, Islam has caused 2 million deaths amongst the southern Christians and anamists. Add the 600 years of war between Christians and Islamics in Russia, Caucuses, Balkins. The Hindu Kush translates into the land of dead Hindus, where the islamics massacred several million Hindus when they obliterated 2 kingdoms there. Islam has been butchering for 1300 years.

They Young Turks and Atoturk after them, butchered 1 million Orthodox Armenians, 500,000 Orthodox Assyrians and 2 million Orthodox Iotolin Greeks.

34 posted on 05/26/2005 11:01:46 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth == Christ)
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To: colorado tanker

Don't forget the Turkish islamic massacres under the Young Turks and then Atoturk. Don't forget various Islamic massacres in India and SE asia. Don't forget about places like Nigeria, Ethiopia and southern Sudan (before the 1940s) or the SS muslim divisions Hitler used.


35 posted on 05/26/2005 11:03:40 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth == Christ)
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To: jb6

You're mistaking ethnicity for religion in many cases.

In Darfur, for example, the victims are Muslims as well as the perpetrators.


36 posted on 05/26/2005 11:04:16 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: EagleUSA
Neither.....people with evil hearts kill.

----- *** EXACTLY !! ***

I agree. We have a problem of evil in this world but the Secular Humanists will always say that if we can only educate the ideologue or the religious person then we can have peace on earth. They are also fond of saying "seek rational and reasoned answers" for our problems.

I'm not convinced - Educated barbarians will surely kill you. : D


37 posted on 05/26/2005 11:04:55 AM PDT by Idisarthur
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To: xzins

More people have been killed in the name of God-duh than for any other reason.


38 posted on 05/26/2005 11:07:47 AM PDT by The Shootist
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
VI. Egg-shell thinning

DDT was alleged to have thinned bird egg shells.

Many experiments on caged-birds demonstrate that DDT and its metabolites (DDD and DDE) do not cause serious egg shell thinning, even at levels many hundreds of times greater than wild birds would ever accumulate.

[Cecil, HC et al. 1971. Poultry Science 50: 656-659 (No effects of DDT or DDE, if adequate calcium is in diet); Chang, ES & ELR Stokstad. 1975. Poultry Science 54: 3-10 1975. (No effects of DDT on shells); Edwards, JG. 1971. Chem Eng News p. 6 & 59 (August 16, 1971) (Summary of egg shell- thinning and refutations presented revealing all data); Hazeltine, WE. 1974. Statement and affidavit, EPA Hearings on Tussock Moth Control, Portland Oregon, p. 9 (January 14, 1974); Jeffries, DJ. 1969. J Wildlife Management 32: 441-456 (Shells 7 percent thicker after two years on DDT diet); Robson, WA et al. 1976. Poultry Science 55:2222- 2227; Scott, ML et al. 1975. Poultry Science 54: 350-368 (Egg production, hatchability and shell quality depend on calcium, and are not effected by DDT and its metabolites); Spears, G & P. Waibel. 1972. Minn. Science 28(3):4-5; Tucker, RK & HA Haegele. 1970. Bull Environ Contam. Toxicol 5:191-194 (Neither egg weight nor shell thickness affected by 300 parts per million DDT in daily diet);Edwards, JG. 1973. Statement and affidavit, U.S. Senate Committee on Agriculture, 24 pages, October 24, 1973; Poult Sci 1979 Nov;58(6):1432-49 ("There was no correlation between concentrations of pesticides and egg shell thinning].") ]

Experiments associating DDT with egg shell thinning involve doses much higher than would ever be encountered in the wild.

[J Toxicol Environ Health 1977 Nov;3(4):699-704 (50 ppm for 6 months); Arch Environ Contam Toxicol 1978;7(3):359-67 ("acute" doses); Acta Pharmacol Toxicol (Copenh) 1982 Feb;50(2):121-9 (40 mg/kg/day for 45 days); Fed Proc 1977 May;36(6):1888-93 ("In well-controlled experiments using white leghorn chickens and Japanese quail, dietary PCBs, DDT and related compounds produced no detrimental effects on eggshell quality. ... no detrimental effects on eggshell quality, egg production or hatchability were found with ... DDT up to 100 ppm)]

Laboratory egg shell thinning required massive doses of DDE far in excess of anything expected in nature, and massive laboratory doses produce much less thinning than is seen in many of the thin-shelled eggs collected in the wild.

[Hazeltine, WE. 1974. Statement and affidavit, EPA Hearings on Tussock Moth Control, Portland Oregon, p. 9 (January 14, 1974)]

Years of carefully controlled feeding experiments involving levels of DDT as high as present in most wild birds resulted in no tremors, mortality, thinning of egg shells nor reproductive interference.

[Scott, ML et al. 1975. Poultry Science 54: 350-368 (Egg production, hatch ability and shell quality depend on calcium, and are not effected by DDT and its metabolites)] Egg shell thinning is not correlated with pesticide residues.

[Krantz WC. 1970 (No correlation between shell-thinning and pesticide residues in eggs) Pesticide Monitoring J 4(3): 136-141; Postupalsky, S. 1971. Canadian Wildlife Service manuscript, April 8, 1971 (No correlation between shell-thinning and DDE in eggs of bald eagles and cormorants); Anon. 1970. Oregon State University Health Sciences Conference, Annual report, p. 94. (Lowest DDT residues associated with thinnest shells in Cooper's hawk, sharp-shinned hawk and goshawk); Claus G and K Bolander. 1977. Ecological Sanity, David McKay Co., N.Y., p. 461. (Feeding thyreprotein causes hens to lay lighter eggs, with heavier, thicker shells)]

Among brown pelican egg shells examined there was no correlation between DDT residue and shell thickness.

[Switzer, B. 1972. Consolidated EPA hearings, Transcript pp. 8212-8336; and Hazeltine, WE. 1972. Why pelican eggshells are thin. Nature 239: 410-412] Egg shells of red-tailed hawks were reported to be six percent thicker during years of heavy DDT usage than just before DDT use began. Golden eagle egg shells were 5 percent thicker than those produced before DDT use.

[Hickey, JJ and DW Anderson. 1968. Science 162: 271-273]

39 posted on 05/26/2005 11:09:13 AM PDT by N. Theknow (BXVI - The cafeteria is closed.)
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To: Publius6961
you must be awfully young

You are so kind! :>)

As you'll note from my tagline, I'm a retired Army chaplain.

40 posted on 05/26/2005 11:10:31 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins
Humans kill... animals kill... nature kills... disease kills...

As far as religion... it depends which version of the Koran you believe in.

41 posted on 05/26/2005 11:12:56 AM PDT by johnny7 (Ever wonder what's the 'crust' in 'Ol Crusty'?)
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To: The Shootist

I don't think so.

First, pure religious wars are few and far between. Second, most of the religious wars thought to be so are actually power struggles between kings and kingdoms....and it's always nice to say God is on your side. Third, socialist ideologies have killed so many in the 20th century that it's going to be hard for anyone ever to catch up.


42 posted on 05/26/2005 11:14:54 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: N. Theknow; johnny7

Excellent findings. Thanks.


43 posted on 05/26/2005 11:16:47 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins
Which kills more: ideology or religion?

False dichtomoy: Religion is itself ideology.

(...and furthermore according to a lot of Freepers, non-theistic ideologies are also religions...)

44 posted on 05/26/2005 11:17:41 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: jb6

At least 20M civilians died in Russia during the war, not all by any means due to specific Nazi actions. The Reds also killed a many that they thought might be insufficiently supportive, and a great many died during the chaos of that most brutal war.

When I said 12M I was referring to civilians killed specifically in the "holocaust" referenced by the original author.


45 posted on 05/26/2005 11:21:04 AM PDT by Restorer
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE; xzins; Howlin; Congressman Billybob

I've generally used Rummel's numbers:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM


46 posted on 05/26/2005 11:21:24 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Official Ruling Class Oligarch Oppressor)
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To: Ichneumon

However, I think you understand the distinction that's being made.

The author's point uses something like the following distinction:

1. Religion is an attempt to explain ultimate meaning and destiny.

2. Ideology is a social/political philosophy enforced by governments.


47 posted on 05/26/2005 11:25:42 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: tiamat

You got it.


48 posted on 05/26/2005 11:26:27 AM PDT by George Smiley (This tagline deliberately targeted journalists.)
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To: N. Theknow

Bookmarked!


49 posted on 05/26/2005 11:28:48 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (-I can only contribute to FR monthly, but Hillary's ABBCNNBCBS contributes to her campaign every day)
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To: All
The death toll (difficult to measure) is roughly, Hitler’s holocaust 6 million, Stalin’s famine and terror 8 million, and Mao’s famine 30 million.

So what were the other millions of citizens killed by Germany's National Socialism, potted plants?

Even the Communists admit to at least 100 million citizens killed by their Communist masters. I believe that is the number in the book, The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression.

And why are environmentalists called watermelons?

National Socialism, international socialism, green on the outside and red on the inside -- I don't have the brightest pixels here but I see a connection between millions of dead citizens and societies that give too much power to government employees to micro manage things.

50 posted on 05/26/2005 11:31:47 AM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (Goo- goo- google, good bye!)
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