Posted on 05/31/2005 2:44:43 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan
Members of St. Nicholas' Episcopal Church and supporters from churches around the city, state and nation began to fill the pews nearly an hour before Sunday's service. By 7 p.m., chairs spilled out into the sanctuary's foyer until there was standing room only. It was the final Sunday many of St. Nicholas' parishioners would gather together in the building they built only four years ago. Nearly 90 percent of the congregation is leaving St. Nicholas' to begin Christ Church Midland (Anglican Communion) after Bishop Wallis Ohl of the Episcopal Diocese of Northwest Texas told those who were dissatisfied with the direction of the national Episcopal Church to leave the St. Nicholas church building by June 1. Controversy has been over Biblical teachings and the denomination's election of a gay bishop and stance on same-sex marriage blessings.
(Excerpt) Read more at mywesttexas.com ...
We had great preachers to see us off --- from Petacostal to Roman Catholic.
The best, though, (after a charasmatic Robert Smith -- who pointed out that Jesus was drawing a line in the sand and we were going to be forced to chose which side of the line we were on) was the Bishop of Ft. Worth.
Apparently, it is bad form for one Bishop to give a sermon in another's diocess without permishop. Accordingly, this Bishop gave announcements.
His first "announcement" was that "Jesus was Lord." The second was "The Bible provides the Word of God, not the general convention."
Wonderful service. We left, shaking the dirt off our feet.
HA! Shaking the dust off your feet! A well-applied phrase from the Book of Acts... All the best to you and your fellow parishioners....
Luv, I thought you might be interested in this.
My church split like this.. about half of the people joined a Reformed Episcopal church.. the sad part is that the local church opposed what is happening with the Episcopal Church of America, however, the church itself cannot change as they don't own the property..
What kind of deal is it when 90% of a congregation are forced to leave the church they just built with their money because they insist on adhering to the core beliefs that the other 10% have just decided are outmoded? The Episcopal hierarchy will end up with all the buildings and none of the people. Perhaps that is their objective - they will then sell the churches back to the faithful and retire to Key West or San Francisco on the profits.
What a money grab. Who retains possession of the church's assets once 90% of the congregation leaves? Where is Eliot Spitzer when you need him?
Ping
We could have sued. After all, being Episcopal, we have all the lawyers in town in the congregation. LOL.
However, given what Paul said about lawsuits among believers, we took the high road.
I pray for the parishioners peace and strength. I went through this tearing apart of a church in the 80s. Hope and pray to never go through it again. And what was it over? Basically, same issues your church has just faced and dealt with. West-coast "episcopalians" were taloned and clawed apart, first; and it all began so soon after the 1978 prayerbook "update". God's Strength to you.
Thanks for pinging me! Yes, I have followed it closely, since I work in Midland. A girl I work with is a member there, and she said the last service they had was very emotional and that there was lots of support in the community for the stand that they took. She told of all the other denominations having their preachers there in support, some of whom spoke (Bob Smith being the best of all, she said!)
well, I for one, applaud your strength. Not an easy thing to do and this is just what is going to be called for in times like these. Cheers to you and your fellow Christians down Texas way!
I'm so sorry it's come to this. Prayers that Christ Church Midland succeeds.
GODBLESS YOU AND THE OTHER BELIEVERS!
If your ever up northern n.y.,way stop in for service at a good reformed baptist church and we'll break bread!
GODSPEED!
if the physical plant of the church was built on those parishioners' pledges that haven't been completed, maybe the dioses didn't get such a great deal, after all
What I don't understand is why the congregation went through the expense of building a brand new church within the last 4 years? Even though Gene Reynolds was only made Bishop last year, these problems have been manifest for the last 10 yrs. or so. I would have thought they'd hold out a little longer, if they could have, so see how things were going to shake out.
Follow God not men, you did the right thing!
Cool to see an article from MRT, I'm from there.
BINGO! YOUR POST -- that's exactly what happened in the SF Bay Area... Names.. Melvin Belli, Bishop Swing ring any bells? Oh yes, Spong, fer sure. It was about real estate.
May God bless your new congregation.You have done the right thing.
And for those posting, what about the building? The church is people and not the building. Most denominations determine what is the official "position" of the church. So if you disagree you have to leave their ball field.
In this case. They may have the field, but I feel this congregation won the ballgame.
I suspect this will happen in Episcopal churches all across America. And it will come to a denomination near you in the near future.
I'm so happy for you, that you are able to continue in the Anglican tradition and are staying close to God.
I finally left my Episcopal church and do not have an Anglican community meeting nearby, so I am planning to move to where there is one.
It's not only about an openly gay bishop, by any means. The ECUSA promotes broad interpretation of scripture, if and when credence is given to scripture and the church truly has been taken over by leftist secular political agendas.
Now, you have June 5 to look forward to with excitement. Will your community have a midweek eucharist also?
In 10-15 years, that church will probably be a mosque.
Or unitarian. Just as bad.
Good for you!!!
God will bless the stand you have taken.
That sounds Biblical! I was talking with a Baptist acquaintance yesterday. She and her husband attend an 8:15 a.m. "traditional" service at their Baptist church! The later two services are "contemporary." So, the folks that like old time religion are being marginalized within their own churches. Most mainline Protestant denominations are putting more emphasis on liberal politics, too.
Could you expand a bit on what that means?
After reading all the posts, it appears that the "split" has been going on for awhile.
I just don't know that much about it, 'head stuck in the sand! - Guilty!'
My own church (Roman Catholic) has had it's problems, as of late. I fear more are to come, along the lines of what you are experiencing.
God Bless.
LVM
You did take the high road and God will repay abundantly. Just you watch.
There are a number of Doctors in Midland of middle eastern orgin and numerous small business owner/operators in the mall. There is not a mosque in Midland; however, there is an Unitarian Church; and it has a fairly new building.
What is important, is the strength to 'stand up' for one's beliefs; as demonstrated by the leaving members of the congregation. In this day and age of tolerance being 'force fed' to the nation, it is getting rare that 'stands' are taken. Praise God.
What is truling amazing is that many "mainstream" denominations even still exist in their present form.
The flight began long before "gay" issues, and those issues are only symptoms of a larger issue. Part of it can be traced to "liberation" (Marxist) theology and its infectious seeds planted in all the "mainstream" denominations and their schools of theology.
The primary mission of those Churches abandoned the individual in the church pew and decided it was the government to which the church had to preach - under the rubric that Jesus was on a social-reegineering mission, not a spiritual mission.
The more that the "sermon" has no personal message for the individual, and the individual is led to take the "mission" of the church as simply a religious philosophy and not directly part of a personal spiritual experience, the more the individual sees no need to go to church - he/she can have the religious-community experience simply by being politically active as a social-change advocate.
And thus the churches empty, resembling their empty personal message.
All in all, most got taken in by this clever sleight of hand by the liberal "religionists". And if one only views the liberal church in light of the "sacrament" "efficacy", one can just invite themselves to sup at all the rest of the "selective" interpretations of scripture liberals like to adorn themselves with. (That was before the "gay priest" thing), and if Parishioners didn't like it; they could just find another church.
The split has also been happening within the RC church. Again, there are liberal RC and EPIS churches and CONSERVATIVE ones. Then there are the hookworm liberal ones scattered in the middle between these two. Did you know... the liberal RC has been involved with Amnesty International for overlong?
Yes, a congregation that actually stands for something. Impressive. Rare.
"What I don't understand is why the congregation went through the expense of building a brand new church within the last 4 years?"
We moved from a quiet location to a very prominent location on the "Loop" of the town so as to serve our mission: "to know Christ and make him known." We were hiding out light under a barrel (bushel?) in our little out-of-the way location.
Smith was the best preacher I have ever seen.
I heard that he was "firey" and that his wife sang a song and had the most beautiful voice! I have told my friend and will tell you, I really admire all of you for taking a stand for what is right, and I know God will bless you richly for it!
From about 1968-1972 I used to hang around a YMCA in Seattle's University District that was used by several religious denominations as a meeting place and lecture hall. I'd sit and listen to a couple of liberal nuns talking and expressing their contempt for the older priests, the pope, for the teachings of the Catholic Church, for men, and for just about any authority other than themselves. You could se the whole crisis in the Catholic Church sitting right there on the couch in the "Y" library, and nothing that's happened in the Church since then has surprised me.
A church is more than a building. You'll be much happier in a poorer building that's richer in spirit. And the glorious temple will fall down around the iniquitous.
Not always. A court decision recently invalidated the deed of a Methodist church that wanted to leave the denomination. The court declared that the departing people could take the facility and property with them.
If the decision sticks, the day might be coming when the membership in mainstream Protestant denominations declines even faster. Can't wait.
For others that have posted...
Losing a building is a small price to pay for their eternity. We must keep everything in perspective.
What is the proper word for a female priest in the Episcopal Church? A priestess?
I don't think I have ever really gotten over the issue of the Mass no longer being said in Latin.
Just beautiful.
The RC made other changes over the years that I did not care too much for, but accepted.
Yes, I know there are some "fringe" elements in the RC world. Scary.
LVM
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.
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Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15
Interesting.
I don t know if that's true of other denominations; in ECUSA the Dennis canon was enacted after the departure of whole congregations, property and all, in the late 70s.
The Dennis canon (Title I, Canon 7.4): "All real and personal property held by or for the benefit of any Parish, Mission or Congregation is held in trust for this Church and the Diocese thereof in which such Parish, Mission or Congregation is located. The existence of this trust, however, shall in no way limit the power and authority of the Parish, Mission or Congregation otherwise existing over such property so long as the particular Parish, Mission or Congregation remains a part of, and subject to, this Church and its Constitution and Canons."
Interestingly, the Continuing churches (APCK and probably most others), prohibit the diocese and province from any ownership of a parish's property.
If your Church is a member of the National Council of Churches, it is supporting a Communist Front.
Did your church leadership ever consider the Reformed Episcopal Church? I think they are to EPCUSA what PCA is to PCUSA: an evangelical alternative denomination.
You did right, and set a WONDERFUL example for others. Thank you!
See post 24.
If there are stories next week about the services at both churches, please post them, and ping Sionnsar, who will spread the word..
At least, you were "spared" a farewell message from the AofC. Given his latest pronouncements, you had to feel even more strongly you have all chosen the correct path.
One last item. I have no doubt that you'll be able to buy your property back, in a few years, for about ten cents on the dollar. It's going to be a diocesan money pit, the ECUSA equivalent of the definition of a boat...."a hole in the water surrounded by wood into which one pours $$$." Put some of your in-house attys to work now on planning for the return..
Regards
rudy45 is correct. There are basically two most likely homes for an evangelical Anglican (American) church leaving ECUSA. The REC is one of those (and their coverage includes Texas, too). The other is affiliation with the AMiA, whose coverage also includes Texas. (Both groups are predominantly Eastern/Midwestern. Neither is well represented out here on the West coast.) You can find links to them from the site in my tagline.
(It's "ECUSA" now, used to be "PECUSA.")
It's a bit of a longshot... but then I've heard the story of St. Augustine's (APCK), Chico, CA, that did just that, even though ECUSA would not sell them the building.
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