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Expert tells doctors: let youngest premature babies die
Times of London ^ | 6/5/05 | Sarah-Kate Templeton

Posted on 06/05/2005 2:29:56 PM PDT by wagglebee

BRITAIN’S top medical ethics expert has urged doctors to let the most premature babies die, with treatment offered only in exceptional cases.

Baroness Warnock believes Britain should follow Holland in setting an age limit below which babies would not routinely be resuscitated.

She says this would prevent doctors competing for the “triumph” of keeping babies alive at increasingly young ages even though they may not survive in the long term or may be left severely disabled.

Warnock’s comments were backed in part by Britain’s most senior paediatrician, who said the setting of a lower limit should be considered.

In Holland, doctors do not routinely administer intensive care to babies born before 25 weeks of pregnancy. The Nuffield Council on Bioethics, a medical think tank, is considering proposing similar guidelines in Britain. It is consulting doctors, nurses and parents about setting a 24-week limit.

Warnock, who helped frame laws on embryo research and fertility treatment, supports setting an age limit, with exceptions for babies who show they have a strong chance of living to become healthy children.

“Some doctors and nurses get competitive about the triumph of keeping these tiny, premature, babies alive,” she said. “It would be better to set a minimum age than to have no form of scrutiny or regulation. Below a certain age of gestation no baby should be kept going without very thorough scrutiny of what the prognosis for that baby is.”

Although most doctors are opposed to an age limit, Sir Alan Craft, president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, said it was a legitimate option to consider. “One possible course of action would be not to intervene with any 23-week-old babies unless they breathe completely and spontaneously themselves,” he said.

Craft, speaking in a personal capacity, argues that, as it is not possible to tell which babies born at 23 weeks or less will survive, doctors are forced to consider resuscitating all of them, although the majority have no chance of living.

Once doctors have started assisting these babies, he says, parents find it difficult to agree to treatment being withdrawn, even though it is of no help.

The Nuffield council is investigating the costs of raising the disabled children that premature babies often become as well as the expense of intensive care in neonatal units.

A study of the most premature babies showed most went on to suffer disabilities. The EPICure study of babies born at 25 weeks or less, led by researchers at Nottingham University, found that, by the age of six, only 20% of surviving children had no disabilities; 22% had severe disabilities, including cerebral palsy; while 34% had milder problems such as a squint.

In addition, it found that only 11% of all babies born at 23 weeks survived. Since the study began, however, care has improved and the figure is believed to be closer to 20%.

Bliss, the premature baby charity, says about 50 babies born at 23 weeks survive every year and it would be wrong to deny them the chance to live.

Bonnie Green, head of external relations, said: “We would be very unhappy. It is expensive to keep adults who may not pull through in intensive care but, in their case, we do not say ‘let’s use the money for something else’.”


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: abortion; babies; baby; cultureofdeath; eugenics; euthenasia; healthcare; hitlerycare; holland; infanticide; medicalethics; moralabsolutes; neonate; preemies; prematurebabies; prodeath; prolife; socialism; socialistmedicine; socializedmedicine
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This is disgusting!
1 posted on 06/05/2005 2:29:57 PM PDT by wagglebee
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To: St. Johann Tetzel; cpforlife.org

Pro-life Ping!


2 posted on 06/05/2005 2:30:27 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

How Liberal!


3 posted on 06/05/2005 2:31:55 PM PDT by Guillermo (42% of suicide bombers in Iraq are Saudi and Bush continues to lick their boots)
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To: Guillermo
"How Liberal!"

The Great Liberal Lie is they are for the little people.

4 posted on 06/05/2005 2:34:00 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rearview mirror.)
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To: Brad's Gramma

Tiny Baby ping --can you ping your list, Gram?


5 posted on 06/05/2005 2:35:01 PM PDT by stands2reason (It's 2005, and two wrongs still don't make a right.)
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To: Brad's Gramma; Texas Termite

Any thoughts on he encroching Pro-death crowd?


6 posted on 06/05/2005 2:39:00 PM PDT by Maigrey (Don't make me call the Emperor on you!)
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To: wagglebee

By setting an arbitrary limit, that 11% could have been zero percent instead of the 20% it is today. Only by pushing the limits do we push the survivability back week after week after week.

Ten years ago survivability may have been 28 weeks (just a guestimate). Today it's 23 to 24. Setting a limit will insure only one thing. That 23 to 24 weeks will be the limit from here on out. Frankly I'd like to see it become 15 weeks sometime down the road and even less years after that.

Limits? No.


7 posted on 06/05/2005 2:40:09 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: wagglebee
Witch.
8 posted on 06/05/2005 2:43:11 PM PDT by kstewskis
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To: wagglebee
Although most doctors are opposed to an age limit, Sir Alan Craft, president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, said it was a legitimate option to consider. “One possible course of action would be not to intervene with any 23-week-old babies unless they breathe completely and spontaneously themselves,” he said.

Know this. God will NOT be mocked. You WILL answer to Him someday, and He is NOT someone who will look lightly at this disgusting "course of action".

9 posted on 06/05/2005 2:45:56 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Yo! Cowboy! I'm praying for a LoganMiracle! It CAN happen!!!!)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: DoughtyOne
My youngest brother was 28 weeks when he was born in 1970 (my mother got food poisoning and it induced labor). He was in an incubator for over a month and the doctors predicted he would have health problems throughout his life.

From the second grade on, my brother was on the all star little league baseball team every year. In high school he ran track and his times were in the top ten in the nation for medium distances. After college he went into the Army and was a Ranger, a compound fracture to his shoulder following a parachute jump and his disgust with having Klintoon as Commander in Chief made him decide to leave the service. He went to law school and is now a successful corporate attorney.

And that's my experience with premature babies.

11 posted on 06/05/2005 2:48:51 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee
What is the difference between these people and those that murder babies via abortion simply because of convenience?
12 posted on 06/05/2005 2:49:28 PM PDT by Luke (CPO, USCG (Ret))
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To: Brad's Gramma
Know this. God will NOT be mocked. You WILL answer to Him someday, and He is NOT someone who will look lightly at this disgusting "course of action".

Amen!

Take a look at what I wrote in #11.

13 posted on 06/05/2005 2:50:54 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: Freedom_and_equality

This is in England, it's not here yet (but if we ever get socialized medicine in will be!), England is following Holland's example.


14 posted on 06/05/2005 2:51:59 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: Luke
What is the difference between these people and those that murder babies via abortion simply because of convenience?

Absolutely nothing!

15 posted on 06/05/2005 2:52:36 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

Wow! Pretty cool, to say the least!!!!!!!


My experience with Preemies? Well.....I think you know. ;)


Oh, and to the poster who asked what's the difference between this and the abortionists? IMO, on the one hand, no difference. OTOH!...this is more blatant-murder.


16 posted on 06/05/2005 2:53:38 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Yo! Cowboy! I'm praying for a LoganMiracle! It CAN happen!!!!)
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To: wagglebee

Bliss, the premature baby charity, says about 50 babies born at 23 weeks survive every year and it would be wrong to deny them the chance to live.


I am afraid I dont think this is disgusting. Survive is a long shot from livning.


17 posted on 06/05/2005 2:55:14 PM PDT by mlmr (CHICKIE-POO!)
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To: wagglebee

The thought of this premature baby lying on the table while so called doctors and nurses stand by and watch it die is horrific. I suppose Dr. Mengele would reach over and wring its little neck. How do so-called human beings come up with ideas like this.

My Nephew was a premie of 5 months. He is now as healthy as anyone else ,smarter than a whip, and is 16 and works two jobs already. Nice kid. When I think that this woman and these doctors may have flushed him down a toilet it sickens me.


18 posted on 06/05/2005 2:57:40 PM PDT by sgtbono2002
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To: mlmr

Read what I wrote in #11, and keep in mind that in 1970, 28 weeks was probably more critical than 23 weeks is today.


19 posted on 06/05/2005 2:57:45 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

So of those that survive, most of them either have no disability or have something mild like a "squint". And for this, they must die?


20 posted on 06/05/2005 3:02:02 PM PDT by DameAutour
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To: wagglebee

That was an excellent report. The human mind is not qualified to make such decisions. Seek to save them all and many will achieve what your brother has. Set arbitrary limits, and none will (of this group).

Thanks so much. All the best to you and your brother.


21 posted on 06/05/2005 3:07:31 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: wagglebee
My son was born at 7 months gestation and I can tell you this: I'd have killed anyone who would have denied him a chance at life. He is the absolute joy of our lives and in many ways is the reason I stick with this lousy fight day after day, the hope of building a better life for him.

Those who destroy the children of a society end up ripping its heart and soul out. God will surely damn them for doing so.

22 posted on 06/05/2005 3:08:50 PM PDT by chimera
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To: wagglebee
I should not have read this.

One almost wishes that these "ethicists" found themselves in the same circumstance years back. Then the rest of us would be spared from their wisdom..

>> “Some doctors and nurses get competitive about the triumph of keeping these tiny, premature, babies alive,”

And we all know competition is a bad thing.

>> Although most doctors are opposed to an age limit

Because the light of compassion still lives within their hearts, and they are well aware that the more they try to manage a critical medical situation the easier it becomes. They know they need trial and error, not state mandated ignorance.

>> The Nuffield council is investigating the costs of raising the disabled children that premature babies often become as well as the expense of intensive care in neonatal units.

And therein lies the nut of the issue.

Cost.

Fans of socialized medicine should take note, it all boils down to this in the end. As the number of elderly rise, the number of some other competing financial burden shall yield. Granny waits for her new hip, or premie baby jane is LEFT TO DIE.

At least hitler was honest about it, he simply exterminated all the menially retarded, premature, and unfit (permanently disabled) up front, and with no compunction.

These "ethicists" feel the need to justify their proposed methodology to ease their compunction. And at the same time attain the same outcome. These people are pigs. If they are "ethicists" then I am Henry the eighth.
23 posted on 06/05/2005 3:13:54 PM PDT by mmercier (all God's creatures)
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To: Maigrey

Logan was born at estimated 24-25 weeks. Just follow his thread!! You know, you've been there with us through it all. What a shame this idea is even being considered.

Nana


24 posted on 06/05/2005 3:15:09 PM PDT by Texas Termite (Please pray for Texas Cowboy)
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To: wagglebee

The Spartans are still alive and well. Maybe they can take the babies up into the mountains to die from exposure. Don't have a mountain, use a sky scraper. We can't kill enough of our children with abortions we can fall back on ancient remedies. /Sarcasm


25 posted on 06/05/2005 3:16:57 PM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
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To: Freedom_and_equality
Now that is just outright misrepresentation. I'm no fan of the democrats or other liberals, but I have never heard this being part of their platform until now.

Your ignorance is not factual, that is, you haven't been paying attention.

This is the next step after socialized medicine.

26 posted on 06/05/2005 3:17:45 PM PDT by stands2reason (It's 2005, and two wrongs still don't make a right.)
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To: DoughtyOne
My son was born at just under 26 weeks. My wife's father, a physician, advised us not to name him because we might get attached.

That was nearly 21 years ago, and that unnamed kid is a junior at Texas A&M making outstanding grades. He was also a varsity wrestler for four years in high school.

Just because he was born at an age where it was quite legal to abort him instead doesn't mean much to me. Being severely premature does not mean that the baby is permanently damaged. It means he/she gets to fight for life.

27 posted on 06/05/2005 3:20:10 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone

Thanks for another great example of this arbitrary limits is such a terrible idea.


28 posted on 06/05/2005 3:21:47 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: wagglebee

Don't you think we can live with a few less "experts"?


29 posted on 06/05/2005 3:25:07 PM PDT by Walkingfeather
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To: Dog Gone
>> That was nearly 21 years ago, and that unnamed kid is a junior at Texas A&M making outstanding grades. He was also a varsity wrestler for four years in high school.

Just one reason why all possible options should be exhausted, and then re exhausted in these and similar medical situations. My cousin is a surgeon, they routinely do things today that were undreamed of last year.

They keep trying and improve; these twits want to stop trying, and simply exterminate those who fall into a financially undesirable category.

Who knows, maybe if they can exterminate all preemie's Baroness Warnock (how appropriate is that name) can get a raise and a French villa.

How can a so called civilized country even allow these people to comment publicly.
30 posted on 06/05/2005 3:33:29 PM PDT by mmercier (communists, queers and nitwits)
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To: wagglebee; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
Bliss, the premature baby charity, says about 50 babies born at 23 weeks survive every year and it would be wrong to deny them the chance to live.

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


31 posted on 06/05/2005 3:43:38 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: mmercier
At some point a fetus simply can't survive outside the womb. But we keep pushing that date earlier and earlier.

My son wasn't expected to survive, but I now read of much smaller babies making it. Whether they all have happy medical outcomes, I'm not sure. But there is no arbitrary line.

Yes, there is no point in putting a two week old embryo into intensive care. But a one pound baby can make it today and that's just amazing.

32 posted on 06/05/2005 3:43:47 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: wagglebee

And Satan grins....


33 posted on 06/05/2005 3:45:26 PM PDT by trebb ("I am the way... no one comes to the Father, but by me..." - Jesus in John 14:6 (RSV))
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To: wagglebee

The culture of death seems to be everywhere these days...


34 posted on 06/05/2005 3:49:42 PM PDT by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Maigrey; Brad's Gramma; Texas Termite; wagglebee; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; ...
Baronness Warnock- Ugly, hateful, death-worshipping dyke:


35 posted on 06/05/2005 3:55:36 PM PDT by nwrep
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To: NYer; Maigrey; trebb
It's a shame the Baroness wasn't a test case for this philosophy in years past. I should think that perhaps the good Sir Alan Craft needs to ... ah ... this is Sunday. I'm not going to say what I'm thinking -- I don't want to get banned here, and it's bad enought I thought of it.

Slippery slope time again ... how soon before they seriously begin Micky Mousing around with the lives of the elderly.

I'll echo a previous comment (by Maigrey)... disgusting.

Trebb: I agree ... Satan doing a lot of grinning on this because it only adds fuel and legitimacy to the whole Terry Schiavo/euthanasia (sp?) mess.

36 posted on 06/05/2005 3:55:47 PM PDT by Boomer Geezer (Sgt. Wanda Dabbs, 22, of the 230th, called out, "That's my president, hooah!" and there were cheers.)
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To: wagglebee
The Nuffield council is investigating the costs of raising the disabled children that premature babies often become as well as the expense of intensive care in neonatal units.

It always boils down to money, doesn't it?

Today, it's premies, tomorrow it's Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, Cystic Fibrosis, Spina Bifida, and on and on.

Then they'll turn on the elderly and say that anyone who's lived beyond age 85 should have food and water withheld, even if the person is of sound mind.

On the one hand, science is trying to help couples who can't have babies using in-vitro fertilization and on the other hand, science is saying that a baby born earlier than 25 weeks premature should be exterminated.

You know why, don't you? They want the bodies of these babies for stem cell research.

And here's the INTERESTING thing, they're not calling these little humans "products of conception" or "blobs" either. They're calling them BABIES.

Abortion proponents, take note!
37 posted on 06/05/2005 3:56:29 PM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (http://auntiecoosa.blogspot.com)
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To: wagglebee

Baroness Warnock is a monster.


38 posted on 06/05/2005 4:03:53 PM PDT by TheDon (Euthanasia is an atrocity.)
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There is purpose and responsibility in every instant of life, for the individual and for the community, even though the purpose is not always readily apparent to save the life of another or to face the dire consequences, and the extent of these obligations are endless…..


39 posted on 06/05/2005 4:06:17 PM PDT by stormyseas
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To: wagglebee
It is expensive to keep adults who may not pull through in intensive care but, in their case, we do not say ‘let’s use the money for something else’.

But have no doubt, they will say just that.

40 posted on 06/05/2005 4:06:49 PM PDT by Christopher Lincoln
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To: wagglebee
Isn't Socialist medicine grand? Life itself is subject to a cost-benefit analysis.

It's fascist. It's ugly. But it sure saves money.

41 posted on 06/05/2005 4:13:26 PM PDT by Reactionary
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To: wagglebee

This is completely heartless. I am aghast.


42 posted on 06/05/2005 4:18:05 PM PDT by LibKill (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.)
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To: wagglebee
What next, shall we eat our young? How's about saving them and shipping them off to Thailand so they can serve pedophile masters?

This lev of evil is beyond words.

43 posted on 06/05/2005 4:20:24 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (God Bless.)
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To: mmercier

And well should be compared to Hitler, they also take the same path as Hitler, after all Hitler was also a Socialist just as they are, he headed "The National Socialist Party".

They shout their own name while having sex. A Godless generation that has the blood of millions on its hands.


44 posted on 06/05/2005 4:22:03 PM PDT by stockpirate (Kerry & Democrats; supported, financed, trained, guided, revered, in favor of, Communists.)
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To: HighlyOpinionated
It always boils down to money, doesn't it?

Pro-Lifers are going to have to completely abandon.

The most naive group IMO are the "social justice" Christians. They want the government to pay for cradle to grave, but howl when the leviathan state that they helped create decides to cut off people.

45 posted on 06/05/2005 4:22:54 PM PDT by rmmcdaniell
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: wagglebee
More evidence that Europe is marching off a cliff, spiritually as well as economically, culturally and strategically.

Baroness Warnock. What a name. Sounds like something out of Revenge of the Sith.

47 posted on 06/05/2005 4:24:13 PM PDT by T. Buzzard Trueblood ("I'm not very dignified." - Howard Dean)
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To: wagglebee

The same eugenics morality code which the U.S.A. saved Great Britians ass from the nazis. It is an easy sell. You see the "experts" in morality now proclaim that this group of people have fewer rights to life than others. As long as it doesn't effect me, well thats ok. G.K.Chesterton warned us in the early 1900s of this. Few listened, and the holocaust was the result of turning blind eye. Now lets kill the least among us. It is hard to believe it has come to this.


48 posted on 06/05/2005 4:25:38 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter
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To: Nihao

WTF do they mean by squint anyway? So you're kid will need glasses or contacts or Lasik, and they want to kill for this.


49 posted on 06/05/2005 4:26:05 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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