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Eminent domain struggle over bike shop
ABC 7 Chicago ^ | June 6, 2005 | Paul Meincke

Posted on 06/06/2005 7:22:22 PM PDT by Land_of_Lincoln_John

June 6, 2005 — One man's battle to save his bicycle shop may rest with the United States Supreme Court.

The city of Chicago wants to use the power of eminent domain to take the property for a condo development. The bike shop owner calls that an abuse of power.

Eminent domain gives a city the power to take private land -- for a fair price -- so long as the deal benefits the public.

A Connecticut case awaiting an important ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court is mirrored by many eminent domain cases across the country including the fight over a Jefferson Park bike shop.

They all ask the question, "when is it proper for a public body to take private land for what will be private use?" Don Zordani is a former bicycle racing champion who has made his living selling bikes. Nearly 35 years ago, he bought an old Jewell store in Jefferson Park and turned it into a shop that has had -- over the years -- a sizable clientele.

The city wants to take the bike shop and surrounding properties and allow a private developer to build a seven story condominium tower.

Zordani sees that as an abuse of the city's power to condemn.

"This is not something for the city or the park district, or a school. it would just be for a private developer to make the lot of profit," said Don Zordani.

"I'd like to see some type of development there to make the community proud rather than the eyesore around those abandoned stores," said 45th Ward Ald. Pat Levar.

The city argues that the bike shop and surrounding properties are "blighted", and that building a condo tower with retail shops here would create jobs, improve the tax base and neighborhood appearance. All that, the city argues, would serve the public interest and therefore satisfy the law.

But Zordani says when this process began in the late 90's, his building had not been declared blighted, and the developer who desires his property now was investing heavily in the neighborhood.

"He built a nine-story office building he put in a blighted area," Zordani said.

"We don't think this property's blighted and if it is, then there's not a piece of property anywhere that isn't at risk of being condemned by the city," said Joe Cainkar, attorney for Zordani.

Don Zordani acknowledges that he would sell for the right price. Everybody, he says, has a number.

The developer who wants to put up the condo, Demetrius Kozonis says Zordani's number is way out of whack -- several million dollars too high -- that they've offered to keep the bike shop in the neighborhood, but that Zordani is stubborn and unreasonable.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Government; Politics/Elections; US: Alabama; US: Connecticut; US: Illinois
KEYWORDS: bigcrusheslitte; eminentdomain; kelo; patlevar; patricklevar; powergrabs; propertyrights; troll; trollinvasion; tyranny
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The bike shop

1 posted on 06/06/2005 7:22:22 PM PDT by Land_of_Lincoln_John
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To: Publius6961; grundle

Ping


2 posted on 06/06/2005 7:24:26 PM PDT by Land_of_Lincoln_John (Chicago White Sox, best record in baseball)
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To: greeneyes23

Ping-a-rooni.


3 posted on 06/06/2005 7:26:42 PM PDT by scott7278 (Before I give you the benefit of my reply, I'd like to know what we're talking about.)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John
"I'd like to see some type of development there to make the community proud rather than the eyesore around those abandoned stores," said 45th Ward Ald. Pat Levar.

And I would like to see something more productive where your house is, you f*icking facist.

4 posted on 06/06/2005 7:27:10 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John

I personally think condos are of a much greater value to society than a bike shop ever can be

Plus, it looks as if letters are missing from the building


5 posted on 06/06/2005 7:28:43 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John
Eminent domain gives a city the power to take private land -- for a fair price -- so long as the deal benefits the public.

Bzzzt! I'm sorry, but that's the wrong answer. Your lovely parting gift is this copy of the US Constitution with the 5th amendment highlighted. Private property can be purchased by the government for "public use", not if it merely "benefits the public".

6 posted on 06/06/2005 7:29:34 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Republicans and Democrats no longer exist. There are only Fabian and revolutionary socialists.)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John

The New London case should settle this type of thing.

I can't imagine the government taking property so a private developer can profit---I don't care how crappy the property is.


7 posted on 06/06/2005 7:31:15 PM PDT by Mears (Keep the government out of my face!)
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To: Rodney King; Chieftain

What a pig that local so called "representative of the people" is! What he should have said is " I'd love to make some extra property taxes so I can run again and again and keep my job as a whore for any developer that wants to buy me". Now that would be honest.

This is a crucial ruling from the Supremes and they better get this one right. OUr whole country's right of private property rests on this case. I hope the American people WAKE UP!


8 posted on 06/06/2005 7:32:50 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Everything I need to know about Islam I learned on 9-11!)
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To: Mears
I can't imagine the government taking property so a private developer can profit---

The sad thing is that I can. The Supreme Court wouldn't recognize the Constitution if they were hit with it. Likewise the Congress and the President.

I couldn't have imagined the McCain-Feingold incumbent protection act passing, being signed or upheld by the courts. Yet all three happened.

9 posted on 06/06/2005 7:35:21 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Republicans and Democrats no longer exist. There are only Fabian and revolutionary socialists.)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John
Eminent Domain - just another legalized way for government to get away with racketeering.
10 posted on 06/06/2005 7:35:41 PM PDT by TheBattman (Islam (and liberals)- the cult of Satan)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
I personally think condos are of a much greater value to society than a bike shop ever can be

Plus, it looks as if letters are missing from the building

Hey, why should he fix it, since Ald. Levar is thretening to snatch the store from the owner and the land under it. Perhaps the bike shop owner is asking too much. Then the developer can find another piece of land to build his condos.

Instead, the developer, Demetrius Kozonis, runs to Ald. Levar, so he can get, at least in my opionion "a fair price" from the bike shop owner. This is absurd, the Alderman is using the power of municipal government to push around a small businessman.

The bike shop owner has something the developer wants. If Kozonis wants it badly enough, pay for it, don't drag the city into it.

11 posted on 06/06/2005 7:37:39 PM PDT by Land_of_Lincoln_John (Chicago White Sox, best record in baseball)
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To: Mears

You'd be surprised

I'm in the real estate industry (not selling tract houses either) so, you have to deal with these issues all the time

There is alot of property that is currently rundown, but which has potential.


12 posted on 06/06/2005 7:38:57 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
Plus, it looks as if letters are missing from the building

The sign says "Sportif Importer Ltd". The S could use a little paint, but arguing that this makes the building blighted would be like saying that your house number looks a little scruffy, so your house should be confiscated, torn down and turned over to a sports team to build a new stadium with your tax money.

13 posted on 06/06/2005 7:40:34 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Republicans and Democrats no longer exist. There are only Fabian and revolutionary socialists.)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie
Collecting taxes is an evil necessitated by the need fo fund constitutional government operation.

No American government was created for the purpose of "raising tax revenue".

If you need to "raise more tax revenue", then you have too da#n much government!

14 posted on 06/06/2005 7:42:51 PM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John

Look, I happen to be in the real estate/development industry, and the truth is, some of these people never budge.

I was involved in a now defunct project, we wanted to acquire some worthless swampland, because we had this vision of transforming it into a major condo complex. I personally was gonna net 1.3 mil off the project, but we were negotiating with the guy. His property all together, worth no more than 90 grand. But we got all the way up to 750 grand, that was the final offer, and he still kept stonewalling, giving us some stuff about how this had been his dream.

In the end, we withdrew our offer and canceled the project.

The point I'm trying to make here is, there's no reasoning with some people, we were willing to give this guy 8 times the market value, and he still wouldn't budge because of his property's sentimental value

People are not always reasonable in these kinds of matters.


15 posted on 06/06/2005 7:43:06 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: AzaleaCity5691

If he has a sentimental value and the property is worth it to him, let him keep it. its his, he paid for, and if he doesnt want to give it up, he doesnt have to


16 posted on 06/06/2005 7:45:05 PM PDT by zahal724 (I own a lumber company? Want some wood?)
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To: AzaleaCity5691

You are missing the point completely. The only reason you are making ANY money in real estate is because in this country we have PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS ! It is the constitution that has given you the right to buy and sell property! Eminnant Domain is the basis of that. The only ...ONLY...way our constitution allows for the Government to TAKE LAND BY THREAT OF GUNS (ie the Government) is for the public good...not YOUR good.


17 posted on 06/06/2005 7:45:28 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Everything I need to know about Islam I learned on 9-11!)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
I personally think condos are of a much greater value to society than a bike shop ever can be

And I'm personally amazed you're still around.

A comment like this isn't even worthy of a response.

18 posted on 06/06/2005 7:47:37 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (In God We Trust. All Others We Monitor.)
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To: KarlInOhio

Thank you for reminding everyone of this.

I can remember when public domain was something elected officials would never use, because it was a sure fire way to get unelected by people who value their property rights. I have attended many public meetings in the past where eminent domain was discussed for purposes of expanding the highways in the Central Valley of CA. No one EVER felt good about taking away someone elses property even though there was a clear public need for transportation improvements.

To stay clear of eminent domain debates, public officials now create redevelopemnt zones. They unConstitutionally give authority to the redevelopment council to apply eminent domain and they use "blight" as the reason for doing this. The American people have allowed a Pandoras box to open in the realm of property rights by not requiring elected officials to follow the Constitution, and our society is poorer for it.

But nowadays, the idea of private property and valuing the property rights of others seems to lost. Why aren't children in schools taught to value private property and individual rights? How is it that the idea there is such a thing as group rights with respect to private property come into being?


19 posted on 06/06/2005 7:50:25 PM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John

I bought a bike there years ago. The place is definitely not "blighted". This is a land grab pure and simple.


20 posted on 06/06/2005 7:53:23 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: AzaleaCity5691
People are not always reasonable in these kinds of matters.

Sounds like both parties were reasonable in your case. When you didn't offer him a fair price, he declined, and you moved on.

The problem in Chicago and elsewhere is that oftentimes they resort to calling out the governement to remove the owner at the point of a gun.

21 posted on 06/06/2005 7:54:50 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: Mears

Happens all the time. That's what the New London case is about. I'm not very hopeful, as this court routinely sides with powerful interests over those of average citizens. Grand Ayatollah O'Connor will probably consult a Zimbabwean law to determine that the constitution says government seizure of private property for the benefit of politicians' cronies or campaign contributors is in the public interest, and therefore de facto "public use."

Antonio Gramsci's "third way" vision of the global socialist revolution is taking place before our eyes. We're well on our way to a socialistic oligarchy/kleptocracy. Once HRH St. Hildebeast is seated upon the throne, elections like the one in Washington state will become the norm - serving as a fig leaf of legitimacy to maintain the ruling elite's absolute power. Welcome to the brave new world, comrade peons and lackeys!


22 posted on 06/06/2005 7:55:12 PM PDT by Bogolyubski
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To: AzaleaCity5691

Whether or not the owner is unreasonable is totally irrelevant. It's still his property to do with as he pleases.


23 posted on 06/06/2005 7:55:12 PM PDT by Oldhunk
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To: AzaleaCity5691
This is a conservative forum, are you sure your in the right place? We follow the rule of law, not how someone feels! Read the Bill of Rights!


Article [I.]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Article [V.]
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Top

Private land is not to be taken by some real estate whore building condos! Getting government to do your dirty work for you is a good way to start a revolution for the second time!

24 posted on 06/06/2005 7:55:22 PM PDT by Issaquahking (.Yes I'd vote for Bush again, but let's stop criminals and terrorists at the borders!)
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To: hedgetrimmer

Well, private property is the bedrock of the American legal system, but once again, during the 30's, the New Deal inaugurated the process of federal land grabs, and they haven't stopped since.


25 posted on 06/06/2005 7:56:29 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

THANK YOU!!! YOU HAVE NAILED IT!!!

We have strayed so far from the original intent of the Founding Fathers, that if Washington were alive today, he'd be marching on Washington.

Yes, you may quote me.


26 posted on 06/06/2005 7:58:24 PM PDT by Uncle Vlad
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To: Bogolyubski

I like your Zimbabwe reference---very apropos in this situation.

God,what a country "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" is becoming.


27 posted on 06/06/2005 7:59:29 PM PDT by Mears (Keep the government out of my face!)
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To: AzaleaCity5691

I'm embarrassed at your ignorance.


28 posted on 06/06/2005 7:59:33 PM PDT by stands2reason (It's 2005, and two wrongs still don't make a right.)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
Welcome to FR

some of these people never budge.

Then those people are idiots.

Besides, were talking about Chicago here, and abuse by Alderman of zoning laws to bully property owners into bending to their will is legendary and well documented.

The Jefferson Park area of Chicago is a strong middle class community, it does not have to be "saved" by these condos. Do I know all the facts? No. I just posted the article, I don't even know the address of the place, but it's near I work, and I bet it's a nice street. Which is why the developer, I bet, Kozonis, wants it.

But I do know the way the City of Chicago operates. A favorite ploy for years among the Chicago City Council has been this: Alderman would convince their fellow Aldercreatures to downzone an area from commercial to residential. Now, that area that's been downzoned may be as residential as Wall Street, but they'll zone it residential all the same.

Once it's residential, prospective developers, retailers, restaranteurs and the like, according the City of Chicago custom, have to crawl to the local alderman, and ask for a zoning variance to get their business set up in this "residential area." For "a price," whether a politicial donation or an outright bribe, that alderman will grant the waiver.

That's the way it's usually done in Chicago.

So naturally, I'm very suspicious of Alderman Levar's motives of doing this for "the public good." I'm with the bike shop owner.

Now we have guys like Levar bullying a longtime businessowner with emininent so Kozonis can build his condos.

29 posted on 06/06/2005 7:59:36 PM PDT by Land_of_Lincoln_John (Chicago White Sox, best record in baseball)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
I personally think condos are of a much greater value to society than a bike shop ever can be

And when they come for your house using this particular case as precedent, you'll be singing the same tune, right?

30 posted on 06/06/2005 8:02:03 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts ("It's a 'dog eat dog' world out there and I'm wearing Milk-Bone underwear.")
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To: AzaleaCity5691
Read the outcome of Ogden, Utah where the city was trying to evict people "blighted property"! I'm not just spouting, there are a lot of cases moving forward where the local governments are getting a education about Eminent Domain, and what the law calls out. Been a lot of problems with stupid judges trying to march in other internationl laws but they to are getting a little education. I may not be rich, but I sure as hell am not giving up any more property to the government than is required by law, already lost to much.
31 posted on 06/06/2005 8:02:24 PM PDT by Issaquahking (.Yes I'd vote for Bush again, but let's stop criminals and terrorists at the borders!)
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To: Issaquahking

I never said I agreed with what Chicago is doing

I was just expressing my personal opinion that condo's provide more to society than bike shops do.

I personally distaste eminent domain, and thats why I always try and win over potential sellers with sugar. If it doesn't work, I drop the deal. I can afford to pass up the occassional deal.

But in general, condiminiums, or anything that is high density, is going to have a larger net positive economic impact than something that is smaller, or lower volume, that's bedrock economics.

But this guy has nothing to worry about, because no court is going to hold this up, never has a court I know of held up anything along the lines of "using eminent domain to give land to a developer is in the public interest"

The guy has nothing to worry about.


32 posted on 06/06/2005 8:02:36 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: VeniVidiVici
And I'm personally amazed you're still around.

A comment like this isn't even worthy of a response.

No $#it.

This dingbat has been farting up the forum for the past few days. I was hoping he'd learn something here by now....

33 posted on 06/06/2005 8:04:43 PM PDT by stands2reason (It's 2005, and two wrongs still don't make a right.)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John

I'm fully aware of what Chicago is, I think the whole country is.

The guy just needs to take this issue to court, because neither the developer or the city have a legal leg to stand on.


34 posted on 06/06/2005 8:06:22 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
How much is your wife worth? Does she have some sentimental value to you?

In the end money has zero value until applied in a trade of sentiment. When you said "8 times the market value" you were just expressing the sentiment of the recent buyers of similar properties in that locale. That's usually not such a big set of people.

When you say: "there's no reasoning with some people", that's a phrase that begs some explanation. I've heard on ocassion used to justify the unreasonable, since the "reasonable doesn't work with that guy".

How much is your wife worth to you? Or your daughter? In Tunsia, for example, a daughter with firm breasts can be worth a couple of goats. A reasonable price. Set by the market.

35 posted on 06/06/2005 8:07:29 PM PDT by bvw
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To: AzaleaCity5691
...but we were negotiating with the guy. His property all together, worth no more than 90 grand. But we got all the way up to 750 grand, that was the final offer, and he still kept stonewalling, giving us some stuff about how this had been his dream.

750 Grand? And you couldn't afford a county commissioner or three for that much?

36 posted on 06/06/2005 8:10:22 PM PDT by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
He's got a lot to worry about, he's got an Alderman leaning on him. Hard.

I'm not in real estate, thank God.

But let me repeat, the bike shop owner has something that Kozonis, the developer wants to buy. Kozonis wants it a lot. The bike shop guy may be stubborn, nuts, or a good haggler. If Kozonis can't come up with a price that the bike shop owner agrees too, Kozonis moves on, and the bike shop owner loses out on a great deal.

It's that simple. If you don't get it, then DU might be a better place for you to post, as government assisted land grabs are not going to be applauded here.

37 posted on 06/06/2005 8:11:47 PM PDT by Land_of_Lincoln_John (Chicago White Sox, best record in baseball)
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To: AzaleaCity5691

The point I'm trying to make here is, there's no reasoning with some people, we were willing to give this guy 8 times the market value, and he still wouldn't budge because of his property's sentimental value.

People are not always reasonable in these kinds of matters.

That's the whole point of owning property. You don't have to be 'reasonable' and settle for someone else's estimate of 'market value'. When I studied economics, the market price was determined by the intersection of a supply curve and a demand curve, which in turn reflect the preferences of the people doing the buying and the selling. Just because there is a 'market price' for a particular good doesn't mean that all sellers will want to sell for that price or even eight times that price. If the buyer gets to decide what the 'market price' should be, then it's not really a free market.

38 posted on 06/06/2005 8:11:58 PM PDT by CaptainMorgantown
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To: balrog666

Anyone who bribes a public official should be thrown in jail alongside that public official.


39 posted on 06/06/2005 8:12:35 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John

I never said I was applauding it.

Where did I ever say, the City of Chicago should take his land.

A couple of years ago, I had to fight some hick county in central Alabama because they wanted to run a road thru my hunting camp, and claim eminent domain.

I'm just expressing my wonder why the developer is not offering to make the guy a reasonable settlement. It's not as if Chicago is a soft real estate market right now, and any money he'd lose, he'd more than make back on his project.


40 posted on 06/06/2005 8:15:52 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John

Eminent domain = Grand larceny under the guise of the government (most of the time)


41 posted on 06/06/2005 8:17:17 PM PDT by Cool Multiservice Soldier (Newer screen name. but same attitude, same service, same political incorrectness since 1999.)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
The point I'm trying to make here is, there's no reasoning with some people, we were willing to give this guy 8 times the market value, and he still wouldn't budge because of his property's sentimental value

The "market value" is the figure you have to offer to make a successful purchase. You failed to do this

42 posted on 06/06/2005 8:17:41 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms. - Aristotle)
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To: VeniVidiVici

>> A comment like this isn't even worthy of a response.

I Agree... Oops. Uh, Admin mod where's the un-post button?

</Grin>


43 posted on 06/06/2005 8:17:43 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: AzaleaCity5691
I had to fight some hick county in central Alabama...

A lot of FReepers live in "hick counties."

44 posted on 06/06/2005 8:21:36 PM PDT by Land_of_Lincoln_John (Chicago White Sox, best record in baseball)
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To: DelphiUser

LOL!

Ya, ya. I was trying hard not to be mean. ;-)


45 posted on 06/06/2005 8:22:28 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (In God We Trust. All Others We Monitor.)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
Guess I flew off the hanndle a little quick in atacking the messenger, not the message. I re-read the text and drawing attention where it is needed. Not that I support "a taking" by the government unless there is some Freeway that has been on the planning board forever and is being held up by one sale.

Starting to see a lot of activity here in the western U.S. where the government deliberately creates "inholders" Especially when it comes to natural resource potential, and they starve out a generation from effectively using their land. It's pretty characeristic of the government to keep pushing the same BS cart if they can get their way. We are continuing to find some effective road blocks in the last ten years...
46 posted on 06/06/2005 8:23:43 PM PDT by Issaquahking (.Yes I'd vote for Bush again, but let's stop criminals and terrorists at the borders!)
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To: Land_of_Lincoln_John

I doubt they live in this county.

And anyone who doubts my conservative credentials, all you need to do is ask me what I think should be done with the border. Let's just say, me and Pat Buchanan are ideological kin on this issue.


47 posted on 06/06/2005 8:25:04 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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To: Issaquahking

And the one sale has to be met with a true market value...not what some goofy local appraiser rates it at for tax purposes!


48 posted on 06/06/2005 8:25:35 PM PDT by Issaquahking (.Yes I'd vote for Bush again, but let's stop criminals and terrorists at the borders!)
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To: AzaleaCity5691
Buchanan is "off the reservation" in my book. Anyone else?
49 posted on 06/06/2005 8:27:58 PM PDT by Land_of_Lincoln_John (Chicago White Sox, best record in baseball)
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To: Issaquahking

The west is going to be the big battleground over this. Not so much California, because to be quite honest, I think California has reached equilibrium. In the next 20 years, California is going to start suffering what New York, Illinois, etc have long dealt with.

It's become too expensive to do business in Cali.

I think two states where alot of these issues are going to come to the forefront. Idaho and Nevada.

With Nevada, the fact is, the boom has to go bust at some point. You can't run a city of 3 million people (I've heard some estimate thats what the metro will be by 2010) on gambling alone. Especially when you're talking about a city that would not exist without modern technology.

Idaho is different because of well, the explosion Boise has seen in the last few decades. I was surprised to find out the Boise area now has half a million people, and it is still growing exponentially. I think in the next 10-15 years, Boise will start encroaching on well, land that hasn't seen the light of civilization ever, and I think some big issues will occur there.

I'd same the same for Colorado.


50 posted on 06/06/2005 8:31:54 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (Farragut got lucky, if we had been on our game, we would have blasted him off Dauphin Island)
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