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Tests unveiled in court show girl has cancer again(texas 12 year old)
www.kltv.com ^ | 6 10 05 | www.kltv.com

Posted on 06/10/2005 4:17:36 PM PDT by freepatriot32

CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas Medical tests today showed that cancer has returned to a 12-year-old girl whose parents were in court to fight radiation treatment because they believed her illness was in remission.

The new tests were revealed by state attorneys during a hearing that was supposed to determine whether treatment for Katie Wernecke was necessary in the days leading up to a custody hearing next Wednesday.

Texas Child Protective Services removed the girl and her siblings from the home of Michele and Edward Wernecke last week after doctors said discontinued treatment could be life-threatening.

Katie was diagnosed with Hodgkin's Disease in January, when her parents brought her to the hospital for pneumonia treatment.

The parents had insisted the four rounds of chemotherapy Katie received killed the cancer and that the recommended radiation therapy would only harm a healthy girl.

But Friday's results, "changes everything," said Daniel Horne, an attorney for the parents.

The judge decided that the girl, who was not present for the hearing, would remain in state custody.

He recommended that the girl's treatment begin tomorrow, her 13th birthday. The judge did not immediately address how involved he would let the parents be.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: 12; again; billofrights; cancer; chooselife; constitutionlist; court; cpswatch; donutwatch; girl; has; in; libertarians; old; parentalrights; prolife; righttolife; schaivonuts; show; terribots; tests; texas; unveiled; year
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1 posted on 06/10/2005 4:17:38 PM PDT by freepatriot32
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To: Abram; AlexandriaDuke; Annie03; Baby Bear; bassmaner; Bernard; BJClinton; BlackbirdSST; ...
Libertarian ping.To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here
2 posted on 06/10/2005 4:18:25 PM PDT by freepatriot32 (www.lp.org)
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To: freepatriot32

This is one of those no-win situations. At first I was angry at the parents, but God, what they must be going through.


3 posted on 06/10/2005 4:20:09 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Everything I need to know about Islam I learned on 9-11!)
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To: Born Conservative

Ping-a-roo. Remember the thread a couple of days ago about the child whose parents were trying to withold treatment they said she didn't need?

I guess the parents have to admit now that they didn't know more than the doctors.


4 posted on 06/10/2005 4:20:20 PM PDT by AQGeiger (Have you hugged your soldier today?)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

At first I was angry at the parents, but God, what they must be going through.
---

Angry at the parents? When the government steals their children from them in order to impose what they believe is the right treatment. You cannot get any closer to Tyranny than that!


5 posted on 06/10/2005 4:22:27 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/charterschoolsexplained.htm)
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To: freepatriot32

SHE NEEDS HER MOM ALL THE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!


6 posted on 06/10/2005 4:24:29 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (Terri Schindler was murdered - IMPEACH JUDGE GREER!!!)
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To: traviskicks
The government wasn't imposing what it believed to be the right treatment. It was making sure the young girl received her Constitutional rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

She'd already been diagnosed with cancer, fortunately of a well understood variety, with a prescribed course of treatment with a good success record.

No doctor had said she was free of cancer when this happened.

Children have a right to not be killed by their parents, Roe v. Wade to the contrary.

7 posted on 06/10/2005 4:28:00 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: traviskicks
BTW, there's a problem here with the word "steal". The child is not anyone's property, and the government exercised due process of law, not theft.

It really bothers me a lot when people refer to other human beings as merely property, or part of their own bodies.

8 posted on 06/10/2005 4:29:43 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: freepatriot32

This morning on the news the father said with the radiation treatments it would do damage to her spine's ability to grow and therefore his daughter "would stay short". It seemed like he was saying this was a factor in why they didn't want her to have more treatments. No doubt, having a sick child is the worst. It's an enormous strain on a family.


9 posted on 06/10/2005 4:35:38 PM PDT by Sabatier
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To: Sabatier

Short girls are a problem for some people.


10 posted on 06/10/2005 4:38:35 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: muawiyah

It's tougher decision that what you see, IMHO.

I would want the decision on whether to do chemo and radiation myself. These are not guaranteed cures, often they prolong life with great suffering in ever shortening intervals.

My mother got off this train; and after watching her go through it, if I have the choice, I will likely get off sooner than she.

Court ordered medical treatment - particularly for cancer - is offensive on its surface. There are some obvious exceptions, but I'd be careful to limit these.


11 posted on 06/10/2005 4:38:41 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: traviskicks; Recovering Ex-hippie
Angry at the parents? When the government steals their children from them in order to impose what they believe is the right treatment. You cannot get any closer to Tyranny than that!

Ummmm.....It was the right treatment.

Even the parent's lawyer now admits that:

"But Friday's results, "changes everything," said Daniel Horne, an attorney for the parents."

With treatment, Hodgkin's Disease has a very high cure rate of over 90% in the early stages and even has a 70% to 80% cure rate in Stage III disease.

Without treatment, the death rate is 100%.

The parents originally claimed that the child was completely disease free without any data to back up that claim. As it is, even the parents and their lawyer now admit that the parents were wrong.

If the State had not intervened, that child would be a "dead kid walking" right now.

12 posted on 06/10/2005 4:39:09 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: D-fendr
This is one of those areas where medical science has shown there to be benefit.

These folks also cite the same Bible verses the Apostolic Charismatic Church of the First Born cites to justify shamanism and use of peyote.

I never, ever trust these guys to do anything but let their kids die and then bury them in secret graves.

13 posted on 06/10/2005 4:40:54 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: muawiyah

Sure, but better short and healthy.


14 posted on 06/10/2005 4:41:07 PM PDT by Sabatier
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To: Sabatier
AT 4'10" a person achieves as high as you can go and still be a dwarf.

My hometown has enough dwarves that if you stand in one place out front of the Walmart for under an hour you will see at least 3 of them.

The local Autozone sells pedal extenders!

I think it was my Great Uncle who settled a bunch of people in his circus in this area.

15 posted on 06/10/2005 4:44:41 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: muawiyah

"Short girls are a problem for some people."

Oh, so wrong. We're practically perfect and not a problem for anyone.


16 posted on 06/10/2005 4:44:58 PM PDT by SoVaDPJ
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To: SoVaDPJ

We had a Texan father who wanted a "tall girl", not a "short girl", and he was prepared to deny her life preserving radiation treatment to get that condition.


17 posted on 06/10/2005 4:46:07 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: freepatriot32
From the parents of a 8 yr. old with leukemia, the government telling us the proper treatment for our son is wrong!

Yet this child should receive the radiation treatment. Lymphoma has a high cure rate if they would follow accepted treatment plans.

18 posted on 06/10/2005 4:46:17 PM PDT by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: sausageseller

What is fundamentally wrong with the government directing people to the correct medical treatment?


19 posted on 06/10/2005 4:47:14 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Sabatier

Better 5'1'' than six feet under.


20 posted on 06/10/2005 4:48:53 PM PDT by cubram
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To: freepatriot32
It's pretty well established that we don't let parents withhold lifesaving medical treatment for their kids. The court may have saved her life, yet some people are complaining about it.

Weird.

21 posted on 06/10/2005 4:50:45 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: muawiyah
There are many treatment "options". Having the government telling you and or even your doctors which one should be accepted is the problem.
22 posted on 06/10/2005 4:54:13 PM PDT by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: Dog Gone

Is it possible to be very glad that the child is going to get treatment, yet still be very, very squicked at the thought of the government mandating our medical treatment and health care?


23 posted on 06/10/2005 4:55:06 PM PDT by SoVaDPJ
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To: Dog Gone
Receiving the radiation is not equal to saving her life, yet.
24 posted on 06/10/2005 4:55:29 PM PDT by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: traviskicks
Angry at the parents? When the government steals their children from them in order to impose what they believe is the right treatment. You cannot get any closer to Tyranny than that!

Yeah, I guess it would be better all around to just let her die.

25 posted on 06/10/2005 4:56:26 PM PDT by ahayes
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To: sausageseller
Seemed to me there were a couple of treatment options in this particular case, and only one of them had been exercised.

Fundamentally the only argument that could possibly be made with respect to a liberty interest external to the young girl herself would be the right of parents to kill their kids.

Are you kinda' trying to creep around and do that sort of argument?

26 posted on 06/10/2005 4:56:27 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: SoVaDPJ
OK, I give up, I've been squicked enough!
27 posted on 06/10/2005 4:57:52 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: D-fendr

I'm sorry about your mother. Fortunately for this girl childhood Hodgkin's has an excellent prognosis with proper treatment, while it is terminal without treatment.


28 posted on 06/10/2005 4:58:02 PM PDT by ahayes
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To: ahayes
Only takes a quick search on the net to find out more than we'd ever wanted to know about this particular kind of cancer.

It has a very high "cure" rate.

29 posted on 06/10/2005 4:59:37 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: sausageseller
From the parents of a 8 yr. old with leukemia, the government telling us the proper treatment for our son is wrong!

Yet this child should receive the radiation treatment. Lymphoma has a high cure rate if they would follow accepted treatment plans.

For some cancers, unfortunately, there is no "right" answer as even the most aggressive therapy may do little to save the life.

In other cancers, however, such as Hodgkin's Disease, the cure rates are so high with appropriate treatment that denying such treatment is as murderous as denying a child surgery for appendicitis or antibiotics for pneumonia.

30 posted on 06/10/2005 5:01:43 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: SoVaDPJ
Is it possible to be very glad that the child is going to get treatment, yet still be very, very squicked at the thought of the government mandating our medical treatment and health care?

No, there's a big distinction when a kid is involved. You, as an adult, can refuse medical treatment. But when an irrational parent is making that decision for you, then it's not your decision. Who's going to step in? In this case a judge.

It's not a perfect solution. The perfect solution would be for the parents to not be irrational.

31 posted on 06/10/2005 5:03:41 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: AQGeiger

It was my understanding that the doctors and parents agreed that the child was in remission. Seems the doctors had the child in a test program, some patients with chemo and radiation treatments vs. just chemo treatments. The girl was part of a study program, and the medical profession didn't want their results skewed by over zealous parents.


32 posted on 06/10/2005 5:08:18 PM PDT by GrammaLou
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To: A CA Guy

Ping! I thought you might be interested in the new development. So much for the parents' announcement that they just knew their daughter was in remission.


33 posted on 06/10/2005 5:08:35 PM PDT by ahayes
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To: Dog Gone

Ok. Would it be okay for the government to say, "Hey, she's not going to get better, stop the treatment?"


34 posted on 06/10/2005 5:13:44 PM PDT by SoVaDPJ
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To: GrammaLou
There was an accusation made on the thread that there was a "test" of some sort going on. However, when you went to the net to find out about the issue, it was really, really, really old news. The current practice is chemo, and if there's a sign that the cancer is not in remission, they use radiation.

That doesn't mean such things don't go on. We had the problem with the syphilis patients in Alabama, and the military regularly conducted such tests with dependents.

35 posted on 06/10/2005 5:15:20 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: SoVaDPJ

No, not unless the government wasn't paying for that treatment.


36 posted on 06/10/2005 5:15:22 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: muawiyah
"Short girls are a problem for some people."

Dead girls are an even bigger problem. The parents not treating her constitutes abuse. The state did the right thing here.

37 posted on 06/10/2005 5:15:26 PM PDT by ValenB4 ("Every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets." - Isaac Asimov)
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To: traviskicks
Well based on current news, the parents would have pulled off a Judge Greer post term abortion had the government not imposed what you call it's so called tyranny.

Good move by the government here by some case workers on the ball.

I pray for the little girl, four rounds of chemo and not in remission. That is a real tough deal.
38 posted on 06/10/2005 5:15:41 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: sausageseller; muawiyah
There are many treatment "options". Having the government telling you and or even your doctors which one should be accepted is the problem.

The diseases where you have lots of "options" are the diseases that do not yet have very effective treatments and one treatment is just as good as the other.

For the really bad diseases, your M.D. won't even argue with you if you tell him you want to go to Mexico to have coffee enema treatments. It won't matter in the end. Whatever floats your boat is the "right" thing to do.

With other diseases, certain therapies are so successful that denying such therapy would be tantamount to murder if you deny that treatment to others.

If you want to treat your own appendicitis with acupuncture, you are perfectly free to do so. The Government has no qualms about allowing an adult to earn a Darwin Award.

However, if you intend to treat your child's appendicitis with acupuncture, the Government will step in and not allow you to murder your child.

39 posted on 06/10/2005 5:16:19 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: SoVaDPJ

Oops, WAS paying for that treatment.


40 posted on 06/10/2005 5:16:25 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Polybius

Coffee enema is the treatment of choice for so terribly many things.


41 posted on 06/10/2005 5:17:45 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: GrammaLou
There are many different levels of "remission." It's not an all-or-none thing, as it is unfortunately portrayed. You have clinical remission, which is simply when the patient begins to feel better. However, cancer cells will still exist at this stage. You have hematologic and cytogenic remission. Again, cancer cells still exist at these stages. You have FISH remission and flow cytometric remission. These refer to various types of tests that are used to determine the level of cancer cells. Some tests are more specific than others. An individual is treated until they are in what is called molecular remission, which indicates that the patient is negative for tumor cells in a test called PCR analysis. This is the most "complete" stage of remission. So a person may be in one of any stages of remission and still need treatment, because if molecular remission is not achieved, the cancer will recur. The cancer may even recur if molecular remission is achieved. But if the patient is not in this state, a recurrence is pretty much a given. So there is obviously a great deal of information that is being left out of this article for the sake of simplicity. Unfortunately, it's very pertinent information.

The girl was part of a study program, and the medical profession didn't want their results skewed by over zealous parents.

Well, it's pretty plain that this wasn't the complete truth, or the cancer would not have recurred so soon.

It's always amazed me how some folks are so distrustful of doctors. Yet when they are ill, they are first in line at the doctor's office, wanting as much to be done as possible for them. Individuals who want to impugn every motive of every health professional should rather see a voodoo priestess when they are ill.

42 posted on 06/10/2005 5:21:58 PM PDT by AQGeiger (Have you hugged your soldier today?)
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To: freepatriot32

Children are wards, not property.


43 posted on 06/10/2005 5:23:01 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: Polybius; Dog Gone

My worry here is that the government steps into medical care constantly to kill people--I mean, let them die in a euphoric manner. I have a real fear about letting the government decide anything about medicine.

Having said that--I am relieved that the child is being treated. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to control what the govt. controls about us.


44 posted on 06/10/2005 5:23:13 PM PDT by SoVaDPJ
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To: AQGeiger
Some tests are more specific than others.

Whoops. Make that "Some tests are more sensitive than others." Specificity and sensitivity are totally different. My bad for not proofreading.

45 posted on 06/10/2005 5:35:17 PM PDT by AQGeiger (Have you hugged your soldier today?)
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To: SoVaDPJ

The problem with "US" is we do need to be kept an eye on.
Some think it is normal to be taking recreational illegal drugs in the name of the contstitution.
Others might think it's OK to kill the neighbor's pets and to BBQ them for dinner.

I'm sorry to say there are some wierdos among us, plus many are not blessed with the gift of common sense.

So, for those lacking, lots of laws exist.

In the case of kids, they are protected over the parents if they are shown to be in danger by the parents.
If a guardian is home getting drunk while kids are in the house and children's services finds out, you are going to lose the kids unless there is a sober parent there the same time to protect the kids.

There is a balance and I think what we all want is to not have the balance turn into the government dictating to us how to live in general, which is reasonable.


46 posted on 06/10/2005 5:37:40 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: SoVaDPJ; Dog Gone
My worry here is that the government steps into medical care constantly to kill people--I mean, let them die in a euphoric manner. I have a real fear about letting the government decide anything about medicine.

Having said that--I am relieved that the child is being treated. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to control what the govt. controls about us.

The cases where Government steps in are usually:

1. When a child is involved.

2. When the "right choice" for the child is pretty clear cut.

As noted in my other post, treating a child with appendicitis with acupuncture would be such a case.

Adults, on the other hand, are given free reign to commit suicide if they so desire.

I have seen it many times in my own radiology practice in this West Coast community filled with New Agers that believe in crystals and karma.

The real tragedies are not the ones that die believing they will be cured by their "alternative therapies". The real tragedies are those that had potentially curable cancers, drop out of their oncology treatments to go to Mexico or some New Age commune in California to get herbs and spices infused up their rectums and then return several months later with an incurable tumor the size of a football realizing that they have committed suicide.

Government allows adults to do such things to themselves.

Government does not allows adults to do such things to their children.

47 posted on 06/10/2005 5:43:18 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: A CA Guy
The problem with "US" is we do need to be kept an eye on.

Uh, yeah, I'd say some of US do need to be kept an eye on.

48 posted on 06/10/2005 5:52:53 PM PDT by SoVaDPJ
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To: muawiyah

"Short girls are a problem for some people."

Short people got no reason...


49 posted on 06/10/2005 5:54:47 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse
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To: Polybius
I'm still trying to figure out why these parents got involved with medical care in the first place. Their website is chock full of the various Bible verses used by the anti-medicine culties to justify killing their kids.

Wish someone would post a picture so I could see if their teeth are falling out from peyote use yet.

It's possible they are in the first stages of breaking with their church, and the Elders who prefer to lay hands on you than to let you see a doctor.

50 posted on 06/10/2005 6:01:59 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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