Posted on 06/11/2005 5:37:53 AM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin
The question of how to treat gay and lesbian people seems about to start causing even more division between church people.
The Greater Milwaukee Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America will recommend to the Churchwide Assembly that the ELCA permit gays and lesbians in committed relationships to be ordained.
The General Synod of the United Church of Christ will debate competing resolutions at its national meeting in July. One would endorse the concept of same-sex marriage; the other would have the church affirm that marriage should be only between a man and a woman.
What these resolutions, plus similar efforts on both sides of the issue being debated by other denominations, will accomplish is hard to say.
But one example of hope comes from the Roman Catholic Church of all places. Not only that, but it comes from the man who is now the world's top Catholic doctrinal watchdog.
The Catholic position on gays and lesbians has been pretty much stereotyped as one of negativity.
Enter Archbishop William J. Levada, the man Pope Benedict XVI selected to head the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - the job the pope held under Pope John Paul II. When Levada was archbishop of San Francisco, he found a way between competing factions.
According to the National Catholic Reporter, Levada found himself in a conflicted situation in 1997, when San Francisco adopted a law requiring contractors receiving city funds to provide health benefits to gay, lesbian and unmarried partners of their employees.
Catholic charities in San Francisco at the time received $5.6 million in funds for programs helping the poor, homeless and sick. But Levada, as spokesman for his church, could hardly condone people living in "sin."
He might have stood on a soapbox and proclaimed morality topped making deals with Satan. He didn't.
What he did, the National Catholic Reporter said was to strike "a compromise that allowed employees to designate 'any legally domiciled member' of their household to receive 'spousal equivalent benefits,' whether the recipient was a mother, a brother or a gay partner."
Makes sense to me. The compromise took the Catholic charities off the hook. It took the city - which depends on those charities to offer care - off the hook. It not only provided benefits for gay partners, it also extended those benefits to others who provide care for loved ones.
I wish we could see more of this in the debate over gay and lesbian rights, same-sex marriage and social policy in general.
It's just a matter of thinking outside the box, if you will.
The proposal before the Lutherans is, basically, an extension of a long-standing Roman Catholic attitude toward gay priests. The church demands all its priests be celibate so it hasn't seen fit to bar gays from the ministry. What would be the point?
The Lutherans demand their pastors be in committed, monogamous relationships. Extending that definition to gays and lesbians doesn't seem radical.
Most UCC congregations already bless same-sex unions. I'm not sure why the church wants to get into the political battle about marriage. It might do better to hold up a standard of committed relationship that might serve as a template for all unmarried "couples."
Hmmmm. It appears to me that this author has claimed that the Catholic Church indulged in 'legalism' and rationalization that allowed them to ignore its own moral teachings in order to avoid losing government funds. The author is suggesting that other religions follow the same path so that 'we all just get along' and incidentally don't lose any money.
Isn't that the way of the Unitarian cult? It says at the base, any moral teaching is simply a small matter of interpretation and presentation. Isn't that what was at the root of the homosexual, lesbian and pedophilia problem in the Catholic Church?
This is one of the reasons I only stayed with the ELCA only a short time. Bunch of Liberals playing church.
It's just a matter of thinking outside the box...
Gay men and lesbian women certainly do something 'outside the box', but I don't believe it's called 'thinking'.
Ping and BUMP for later reading
Wasn't it on this forum that I read just yesterday that the actual number of people that are homosexual is under 2%. Talk about tyranny of the minority!
It is bad enough that it is front page on all our media, We can't allow this to errode our churches, too.
Unless you believe the Bible should have something to do with how Christians conduct themselves.
"What he did, the National Catholic Reporter said was to strike "a compromise that allowed employees to designate 'any legally domiciled member' of their household to receive 'spousal equivalent benefits,' whether the recipient was a mother, a brother or a gay partner." "
I've been saying this for years. At one time or another my adult children have lived with me. Usually with no health insurance. It made me nuts that unrelated sex partners could designate each other as beneficiaries and I couldn't designate my child.
This appointment mystifies me.
I've read Levada's resume and he seems a capable man. But coming from San Francicso, which is heavily populated by homosexuals, seems to be an odd place to pick someone to handle the Doctrine of the Faith.
Homosexuals are known to advance their agenda one compromise at a time. If Levada believes in the politics of compromise he's playing their game, and how much of the Catholic Faith is open to compromises?
Church Wades Deeper into Gay Politics
When you are up to your a** in alligators, you tend to forget your initial objective was to drain the swamp.
If you are against gay marriage, then don't marry a gay.
"If something like 'partner rights' goes through, the first thing i'm doing is i'm going to marry my mother so as to avoid inheritance tax."
OT, and I know you're just stating an example, but you don't have to go that far! I have joint accounts on everything with my Dad, as I'm his Executor and am the only relative that will be legally responsible for him as he ages (he's 68 now.) We own everything jointy, so there will be no inheritence taxes. I'm assuming based on your handle that we live in the same state?
(He and Grandpa had the same arrangement. No fuss, no muss, no State "hand in your pocket" when the inevitable time arrives.)
It's just a matter of compromising God's law.
bttt
Amen! I started seeing the "writing on the wall" in "The Lutheran". It is an ELCA publication where the homosexual agenda is preached. After growing up in the church I ex-communicated myself.
I like to believe that I followed God out of the ELCA.
You can read that 2% figure all you like but there is no frickin way 2% of queers can screw up the world the way these people are doing. As for Churches recognising Gays and allowing gays to become ministers of the Church, most would think that being church members they would have read the Bible at some time and recognised that homosexuality is not a sin that can be looked past.
"Dear Kairos News Subscriber and Members of the ELCF Listserv,
Over the past few months I have been asked many times why postings to Kairos News dropped off just after the ELCA Church Council decision in January. I have felt the need to make some explanation, but have hesitated until now because I wasn't exactly sure where I wanted to go with this. So gave myself some time to pray and consider just what to do with Kairos News. I have decided to write you today because I finally sense that I have a clear direction about what I want to do.
There are a number of reasons why I took several months for a sabbatical from Kairos News.
First, there have been some personal changes in my life. I have made efforts to focus and prioritize my many involvements and activities so that my time and energy could be applied where they could do the most good and make the most impact. I have had much success in this effort, but continue to work on it.
During the course of the past few months I have dropped out of a number of activities and have also taken a moratorium on some other things as well in order to make some massive changes in restructuring and organizing my personal life as well as my psychology practice. This has involved some staff transition and it was necessary for me to devote much time and energy in order to train and supervise my new staff, etc. I am also doing some additional construction and redecoration at my office building.
Second, my professional involvements continue to be substantial. I am a full time psychologist with a very busy group practice, for which I serve as both clinical and administrative supervisor for several other mental health professionals, including two interns.
I also serve a small congregation part-time. During Lent, I needed to write additional sermons and had other additional duties as well. We also have been making some efforts to reorganize the leadership structure of the church, and this has required much more of my time.
For about 10 years now I have also been teaching graduate classes in family systems and psychology. Apparently, I am good at this, receive consistently excellent feedback from my students and the dean, and recently have been asked to teach a class each semester.
Since I have been now teaching some classes I have not taught before, this has necessarily required more of my time for research, reading and the preparation of lectures, etc. I have also invested in some new toys, like my PowerPoint Projector, and am learning how to use it.
I find that I love the teaching, preaching and counseling that I am doing, and a lot of people are touched in positive ways by my ministry.
Part of my concern over the years is that individuals, and certainly organizations, such as church bodies can get distracted from doing the very mission for which we have been called. I have been making much effort to do the best I can to be effective in the realms of ministry to which I have been called to serve. I wish that the ELCA would do the same rather than being so obsessed with non-biblical agendas.
Third, as a byproduct of better organizing my life, I ventured into some business opportunities to eliminate a lifetime accumulation of too much excess. Particularly, since my tiny church has not given me a raise in many years, the opportunity to help the cash flow--which has often been so limiting in our efforts to move forward and be more effective. For example, it is ironic that selling those inane revisionist theological books on Amazon.com is actually helping to fund ministry expansion so antithetical to the writers of those silly silly books. Some books, however, like Spong's, shouldn't be sold on Amazon. They should just be burned. ;-)
Fourth, one thing I have learned through the years is that we only have so much time and energy. There really is no free time, extra energy or money. And as with Jesus' parable of the talents, I think that we need to accountable for what we do with the time, energy and resources which the Lord has given us.
Over the years, I have concluded more and more that endlessly debating basic matters of doctrine and morality on ELCA-L, Ecunet, and even the ELCF list, as well as too many others to even mention, is a complete distraction to my doing the ministry for which I have been called and which is so so necessary in the community in which I serve.
Fifth, I have not made a decision to leave the ELCA YET, but that has to happen at some point. I just don't know where to go yet.
I am fully convinced that no matter how the vote goes in August, the ELCA has been completely compromised and taken over by the revisionist agenda, and, like the Titanic, is quickly slipping into an icy abyss at about a 45 degree angle.
Some, especially the retired and those close to retirement, seem to spend a lot of time and energy rationalizing why they--like the captain of the Titanic--have a moral obligation to go down with it.
Others think that rearranging deckchairs is an essential ministry.
Still others are spending their time and energy on what they believe to be an essential ministry debating whether the Titanic could be righted and restored to horizontal balance and still sail into New York City Harbor if everybody so inclined could just place their thumbs in that big gaping hole--which the iceberg tore in the hull--at the same moment.
I have a hard time engaging in such debates, especially since there are so many human needs and so little time and energy to serve those wounded and suffering lost sheep without shepherds sorely in need of pastoral care.
Sixth, I will not engage in the bizarre apostate nonsense of the ELCA. Endless debates over just how many orientations can dance on the head of a pin, or how many references to the Trinity or Jesus as Lord can one actually eliminate from a liturgy and still consider it Christian, etc., etc., etc, ad nauseam, bore and distress me because I just have more important things to do.
Taking the ELCA with any degree of seriousness at this point would be about as meaningful as selling tickets for a cruise on the Titanic for next fall (it sank way back in 1912 in case you forgot). My only suggestion for the success of Mark Hanson's clown ministry is that he actually put on white face. It would bring more laughs. And the perennially confused would then realize that this man just shouldn't be taken seriously about anything he says to anybody. To be entirely honest with you, and I can't help myself in this--yes, it just like playing the William Tell Overture for someone my age...we all know who and what I just have to think about--whenever Mark Hanson does his "I am the all powerful grand wizard..." routine on his way to the Whitehouse or some such place, I can't think of anything else but that old Three Stooges film called, "You Nazty Spy!" (1940) In this satire of the Nazis the stooges are paperhangers in the country of Moronica. When evil cabinet ministers overthrow the king, they decide to make Moe the new ruler so he'll be stupid enough to follow their orders. Moe becomes Dictator, Curly is a Field Marshal and Larry becomes Minister of Propaganda. After successfully preventing a female spy from committing mayhem, the boys are run out of office by a mob and eaten by lions. Then I break into uncontrollable laughter just thinking about how much fun it would be to see Mark Hanson and his boys and girls eaten by lions. What a great film THAT would be.
BTW.since I am trying to increase my cash flow, those who wish to save the ELCA may be interested in a slightly used bridge I have in Brooklyn and which I would be willing to let go for a very very good price. Oh.and there also is that vacation paradise in Gatorville, FLA that I have for sale too. That is also on the block. Just make me an offer. I simply cannot refuse.
Seventh, I am bored with posting a real world version of Ripley's Believe it or Not on Kairos News. There was a time when some of the wacky stories out of Higgins Road made good Lutheran folks outraged. Now, they just yawn when you tell them about orgies and Wiccan liturgies happening on a routine basis in the ELCA headquarters lunchroom. Folks don't even want to read this stuff. Here I am working my fingers to the bone, staying up late at night sending out a story about how some ELCA pastor in Pennsylvania blesses the union of two lesbian Wissans at a Satanic Black Mass, and most Kairos News subscribers in Minnesota just yawn. In fact they then send ME back a newspaper account about how some ELCA BISHOP out there married some guy to his dog and his horse and his chicken and his pig and his rabbit and his gerbil and his hamster and his cat and his lizard at a ceremony attended by a legion of actual demons. Now how could I top THAT? Please...NO NO NO...I DON'T REALLY WANT TO KNOW!!!
For a number of years now I have posted a whole bunch of articles which clearly substantiated that we are in serious trouble both as a church and a society. Yet no Hollywood writer could be creative enough to come up with the truly bizarre stories I hear in my counseling office each and every day. Many of them are stories which would make your hair curl.
As I look back over all the efforts I have made at ELCA reform over the past seven years, I think that all I have really accomplished was to deprive my wife and children of a father for much too much of that time, distracting myself from more effectively engaging in real ministry with real people with real human needs. And I really feel very bad about that.
At best, all those efforts on my part likely chased some people out of the ELCA to more faithful congregations somewhere else. Most folks, however, just yawned. And the ELCA leadership simply decided that I was a nut case wacko.
At worse, my efforts simply made most ELCA members evem more numb to even the horrible abuses and apostasies. So now they yawn even moreloudly and more often.
That's not much to show for seven years work.
I have no one to blame but myself. This is my fault, my fault, my fault alone. I confess my sin and beg for both God's and your forgiveness.
At the last ELCF board meeting, I actually tried to give Kairos News to ELCF. But since no new editor has come forth as of yet, I have the following new vision for Kairos News:
One project which I was distracted from over the past seven years was getting up my own website. This website will likely become a reality within the next week or so when the Covenant Counseling Services website will finally be launched.
Covenant Counseling Services is the clinical program of the Marriage & Family Institute, which has education and enrichment and training as essential parts of its mission and ministry.
My hope is now that Kairos News be completely retrofitted and retooled in order to disseminate positive information about positive efforts to strengthen marriages, families and individuals in Christian faith and values with life engendering materials within the context of traditional scriptural and Lutheran confessional theology.
I am not saying that I would never have any articles about the problems of society or the church, but I will not focus on or waste my time on that hunk of iceberg-ridden metal-known as the ELCA-- still racing towards its inevitable doom as it crashes into the bottom of the icy North Atlantic.
There will be many fewer postings, as I will be necessarily be much much more selective.
So, if you are up for something more positive and helpful, then stay subscribed to Kairos News and I will try to get some stuff up and running over the next few weeks.
If you only want the latest dirt on who is doing it to who and who and it on the Presiding Bishop's staff, then unsubscribe and sign up for any of the many many other listservs out there these days.
In any event, I have seriously appreciated your involvement with Kairos News over the years and hope you will stay connected with me through this new effort at ministry in God's coming Kingdom."
How's that for letting it all out? (Please forgive the inevitable errors due to my typing skills). Whither the ELCA? IMHO, it has rotted from the top down and is now a vampire sucking resources from the gullible.
"Then you would have no problem with me "marrying" my wife, my brother, my mother, my neighbors dog and my cats ??"
Thanks. Saved me the trouble.
the point?????????
the point is, homo's are not acceptable, thats the freakin point!!!!!!
I'll do you one better, drive the gays out of society
Dog & cats can't offer reasonable consent, any more than children can. That is an absurd comparison.
Marrying your mother would be forbidden by incest statutes. Such statutes exist to prohibit the procreation of children with congenital birth defects.
No one chooses to be gay. It is just they way they are born. I get no pleasure from hating them. My own marriage has brought me remarkable happiness. I see no reason to deny such happiness to others.
Frankly, we come off as hypocrites when we decry the left's hatred of President Bush, yet are equally willing to demonize homosexuals - even those who want to be in a life-long relationshiop.
It is a double standard, simple, clear & outrageous
How long Lord are you going to continue to allow this to happen? It has absolutely got to be upsetting you of all to look down from heaven and watch this happening to so many of YOUR houses. We all know that a church building is just that. A building, and that the people inside are supposed to be God's temple. How can these people then profess to be an example of God's temple with a straight face? When Lord are you going to finally put an end to all this madness? I pray you don't wait much longer to return and claim your throne.
AMEN
That is why Jesus set us free from ministers in the first place. He did not come to give the ministers more credibility, but to replace their veracity with His own. It was Christ's intent that we should look to Him first, and listen to His commands before those of any minister, no matter how august they might be.
Jesus asked us -- no, commanded us -- to test all ministers by their fruits.
He has instructed that we compare every theological tenant we are asked to believe against the commandments of the Gospel He preached.
We have been empowered by none other than God, Himself, to draw our own conclusions and to disbelieve the teaching of any minster that tries to lead us astray.
Who's talking about radical? It isn't scriptural, which is what should really matter.
There is NO MORAL EQUIVALENCY between heterosexual sex within marriage and lavender atrocity AND some people are born with an inclination to booze from which they should refrain. If someone confuses anal activity with sexuality (I don't care what the "gender" of the perp), suppression is in order.
I'm assuming you don't believe the Bible and what God has to say about homosexuality. If you think it's normal, you are very wrong.
Amazing they can't seem to read in the Bible God's word on gays.
"No one chooses to be gay. It is just they way they are born."
Who's got all those links on The Homosexual Agenda? This person needs some serious de-programming! :)
That's simply not true, but it is what the gay movement would have you believe. People are conditioned to be gay, events during a chlds development which are seemingly irrelevent can play a part in this, as well asmore serious emotional problems, and now, because the gay movement has entered the school system, they are recruiting greater numbers than ever before. There are ex- gay groups out there trying to get their message out, but they are being shouted down by gay activists. Regardless, this behavior is a abomination before the Lord, these people should be invited into the church and encouraged to repent their ways, not have this sin encouraged. Further, such a sinner who cannot repent cannot be a minister and offer forgiveness for sin through the church. He isn't any help to people seeking Christ, instead he's condemning them, leading them astray.
Not cited in either article (NCR or the Madison paper) was the situation in San Fran preceding Levada's decision.
Briefly, the SF Archdiocese ran very large social-service programs--IIRC the budget was in excess of $150 million, and employed a LOT of people.
Under California law (which the Archdiocese appealed and LOST all the way through the Cali Supremes) the Archdiocese was required to provide "partner bennies" for its City/State-funded programs.
Levada had a choice: either drop the programs entirely, which means layoff of all those employees plus interrupt the (presumably good) work the programs accomplish, or find a way to accomodate the law.
He did NOT "violate" (nor abrogate, nor derogate)Church teaching on the matter of homosexual unions--the teaching remains the same.
But there is such a thing as prudence in picking battles. The first rule is that you select a battle which you CAN win.
""When that time comes no grown man will know peace, for many troubles will inflict all the inhabitants of the country." (2 Chron.15:5).
It will come to and end in one of two ways; People in this world will return to faith and straighten out their churches, thereby slowing down or holding back what MUST eventualy come, or people will continue to deny Christ, destroy his Church completely, and He will come to do what He promised he would.
""The world with all it craves for is coming to an end; but anyone who does the will of God remains forever." (1-John 2:17).
"The Day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then with a roar the sky will vanish, the elements will catch fire and fall apart, the earth and all that it contains will be burnt up."
(2 Peter 3:10).
You're leaving out what it was that he did.
I'm assuming he compromised at some point. That would give homosexuals something they didn't have before, a "little" compromise, and something to expand on later.
The first rule is that you select a battle which you CAN win.
History is full of battles that could never be won, but were taken on anyway because of morality or conscience, or both. In selecting battles that can only "be won" it's easy to lose the entire war.
It was inevitable that those who would doubt the words of our Lord, divide the flock and found a cult upon those doubts would end up akin to practitioners of the black masses in mocking sacraments. It is folly to attempt to bestow the sacrament of marriage to anyone for swearing to live a life abominable to the Lord. To appoint that individual as shepherd to the flock is to sacrifice the flock to predators.
This is ridiculous....
because no one is born gay. The homosexual lifestyle comes straight out of sexual deviancy. The church should not pander to this type of lifestyle!
Maybe you would like to give the National Socialists credit for giving this proposal their best shot?
Indulge me. Where in the gospels of Luke, John, Matthew & Mark did Jesus talk about gays?
If you are looking for a religion dead set against gays, you could do worse than Islam, as practiced by the Saudis
Face it, all this gay bashinng is bad theology. And it is even worse politics to use the power of the state to deny individual choice.
If two gays want to shack up & stay committed, it is no skin of my nose. Beyond the "pursuit of happiness" right, it is a positive thing. Anything that encourages social stability - be it property ownership, entrepreneurship, civic service, church, family (albeit untraditional ones) is a good thing.
NO wonder the Russian, Greek (and other) Orthodox Christian faithful are suspicious of Protestant faiths...they deny Christian teachings like this bunch.
You gotta go with your conscience..and work to kick them and their kind out..
Or leave and take all your support for them with you...
imo
If you say so.
Neither of us was in Levada's chair. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about his decision, either--but it can certainly be defended.
He did have another alternative: no health insurance provision, whatsoever, for anyone on those payrolls.
You may call his decision "a compromise," and perhaps it was. But HE reached it, taking into account a myriad of factors which neither of us are privy to at this time.
YOU may have decided differently. But it's easy to call names, in retrospect, eh?
To compromise with evil is to move toward evil.
Jesus said: "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore, they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." -from THE BIBLE: Matthew 19:4-6
Do you really believe homosexuality encourages social stability? The Bible is very clear that homosexuality is wrong.
I'm not going to call him names. He seems to have worked hard to get where he is, and that's no small matter.
My concern is with people who see the results of any given situation as something that can be compromised on. No matter how well intentioned that point of view may seem, it can only lead down a path of defeat if repeated often enough.
When dealing with matters of faith and doctrine at what point does one no longer compromise? On the other hand, are all matters of faith and doctrine open to compromise? As time passes I'm sure we'll see how Abp Levada handles the ecclesiastical situations that arise.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.