Posted on 06/11/2005 1:45:05 PM PDT by Iam1ru1-2
Otherwise it might be confused with a sort of rough idolotry.
Xerography would be even more precise, so the object is not precision but to adhere to the tradition.
Folks who are into that have my OK if you need to know. I'm not into tradition all that much.
Beyond that, I not much into tradition.
I responded to you within the framework of an ongoing discussion with others. If you want to step outside that framework fine, but don't get all self-righteously outraged over what you misperceive to have been said.
"Faith that gets all wrapped up on objects"
The Torah is not an object to those of faith. To us it is the words of God. As such it is the reverse of idolotry.
Again you look at it as an "object" because you have no faith in the source of its contents.
"Xerography would be even more precise, so the object is not precision but to adhere to the tradition."
The object is both precision and law as mandated by the Torah.
Every aspect of writing a Torah scroll is laboriously done by hand. All materials, parchment, pen, ink, are strictly regulated. All writers must be of the faith and practicing Jews. The formation of each and every letter is proscribed.
When was the xerox invented?
The Torah has been copied for over 3,000 years.
How so?
so the object is not precision but to adhere to the tradition.
That's a pretty definitive conclusion from fairly speculative assumptions.
Yes, they are a separate CHURCH from ALL others and yes, VERY separate from the one headed by the Pope in Rome.
"Not in Communion with".... says it ALL as far as I am concerned.
Are you saying that the Eastern Orthodox do not recognize Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Did I call someone a "bigot"?
Yes, if he continues to argue in favor of those who hide their Sin, Zin, Wadd, ilumquh, Amm, Anbay or whatever, even after they kicked its other half, Hubel, Hubal, ha-Bel, ha-Baal or whatever, out of their Ka'ba house in Mecca,...
The Midrash speaks of four exiles in advance of Mashiach's arrival and the Final Redemption: Babylonian, Median, Greek, and Roman ( Bereishit Rabba 2:4). Yet the Zohar speaks of another aspect of exile at the End of Days:
...The descendents of Ishmael will go up at that time [End of Days] with the nations of the world against Jerusalem... (Zohar 1:119a)
There is a tradition that Ishmael will be the final extension of the Roman Exile. It will be with his descendants that the final generation of Jews before the redemption will have to contend. This is supported by the Midrash:
Israel will say to the king of the Arabs, "Take silver and gold and leave the Temple." The king of the Arabs will say, "You have nothing to do with this Temple. However, if you want, choose a sacrifice as you did in the past, and we will also offer a sacrifice, and with the one whose sacrifice is accepted, we will all become one people." The Jewish people will offer theirs, but it will not be accepted because the Satan will lay charges against them before The Holy One, Blessed is He. The descendents of Kedar will offer theirs, and it will be accepted.... At that time, the Arabs will say to Israel, "Come and believe in our faith," but Israel will answer, "We will kill or be killed, but we will not deny our belief!" At that time, swords will be drawn, bows will be strung and arrows will be sent, and many will fall... (Sefer Eliyahu, Pirkei Mashiach, p. 236)
http://www.kabbalaonline.org/Society/currentevents/The_Final_Battle_with_Ishmael.asp
Hmmm, reminds me of Revelation 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men…
Revelation 21:12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Twelve tribes, twelve princes…
The temple that the a-c uses is already standing in Jerusalem, he’s a Muslim.
For the 10 nations see Psalm 83
Daniel 11
37 He shall give no heed to the gods of his fathers, [Chemosh, Molech] or to the one beloved by women; [Ashtoreth] he shall not give heed to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these; [Allah] a god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.
39 He shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god; [Allah] those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with honor. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.
2 Kings 23
13 The king also desecrated the high places that were east of Jerusalem on the south of the Hill of Corruption--the ones Solomon king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the vile goddess of the Sidonians, for Chemosh the vile god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the people of Ammon.
Check please!
Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1) I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2) God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3) "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4) And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[b] 5) So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6) And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]
7) What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8) as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9) And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10) May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]
Ingrafted Branches
11) Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12) But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13) I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14) in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15) For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16) If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17) If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18) do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19) You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20) Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21) For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22) Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23) And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24) After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25) I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26) And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27) And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28) As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29) for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30) Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31) so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32) For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology
33) Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34) "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35) "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36) For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Footnotes:
Romans 11:3 1 Kings 19:10,14
Romans 11:4 1 Kings 19:18
Romans 11:6 Some manuscripts by grace. But if by works, then it is no longer grace; if it were, work would no longer be work.
Romans 11:8 Deut. 29:4; Isaiah 29:10
Romans 11:10 Psalm 69:22,23
Romans 11:27 Or will be
Romans 11:27 Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9; Jer. 31:33,34
Romans 11:31 Some manuscripts do not have now.
Romans 11:33 Or riches and the wisdom and the
Romans 11:34 Isaiah 40:13
Romans 11:35 Job 41:11
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