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1964 STB Report on Vaclav Havel (Havel a Communist Collaborator?)
Anti-CommunistAnalyst.com ^ | Honza Malina

Posted on 06/12/2005 11:50:04 AM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC

Based on what you'll read in this report, we can clearly establish that not only Havel was privileged to receive certain favors from the communists [his frequent visits of the capitalist West Germany, Austria and so forth - ordinary people would not be allowed to travel there during the openly communist era], but also Havel was glad to co-operate with these communist criminals...

(Excerpt) Read more at anti-communistanalyst.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: collaborator; communism; communist; czechoslovakia; czechrepublic; havel; pantload; stb; vaclavhavel
More evidence that the death of Communism is a fraud. Also see post #2.
1 posted on 06/12/2005 11:50:04 AM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: GOP_1900AD; Uncle George; mudblood; AnimalLover; hedgetrimmer; John Lenin; AnnaZ; zzen01; ...

Also see:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1421441/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1421430/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1220747/posts


2 posted on 06/12/2005 11:51:16 AM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: BringBackMyHUAC
Awhile back I was on vacation in Austria, and got into an argument with one of the locals about politics (Goesser bier is to blame). Somehow we got on the subject of their president - an former UN chief - Kurt Waldheim, who had suddenly been discovered to have been in the SS. The drunk made a pretty good point, something along the lines of: "You have to look pretty hard to find an old man in Europe without some history."

That probably goes double for Eastern Europe.

3 posted on 06/12/2005 12:00:52 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter

==That probably goes double for Eastern Europe.

There are millions of pure, unadulterated, non-collaborationist victims of Communist oppression in Russia and Eastern Europe. That is where the leaders of "post"-Communist Russia and Eastern Europe would be drawn from if Communism really "collapsed".


4 posted on 06/12/2005 12:09:00 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: BringBackMyHUAC
I think anyone who has lived or worked in Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union would find it hard to believe that the commies can put that Humpty Dumpty back together again.

I was just on a Russian National Bolshevik Party site where they were protesting Putin's repression of their 'great ideology'.

Of course, it doesn't have to be communism-socialism-bolshevism to upset our applecart, or kill millions of Elbonians. Imperial Russia was pretty good at that, though nowhere as efficient as the commies.

The underground Russian poet Guberman has a neat philosophy on Russia:


5 posted on 06/12/2005 12:21:04 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter

==I was just on a Russian National Bolshevik Party site where they were protesting Putin's repression of their 'great ideology'.

Something to keep in mind when considering whether to take Communist demonstrations at face value:

Full link below:

...Before we can understand the Communist role in strategic deception and terrorist warfare, we must answer one critical question: What is Communism?...Karl Marx and V.I. Lenin are widely known as the founders of Communism. However, not everyone who professes the ideology of Marx and Lenin is a true Communist. Lenin himself defined Communism as an international organization, akin to the Mafia, whose members would constitute an elite corps of professional revolutionaries.[40] As he described it in 1902, "In form such a strong revolutionary organization in an autocratic country may also be described as a 'conspiratorial' organization... such an organization must have the utmost secrecy."[41] Shortly after seizing control of Russia in 1917, Lenin revealed the secret of Communist success in a booklet, declaring that "The Bolsheviks could not have maintained themselves in power... unless the strictest, truly iron discipline prevailed in our Party."[42] Naive believers in Marxist ideology are constantly purged from the Party, for the organization can rely only on those people blindly willing to obey orders.[43] Communism explicitly disavows all moral rules, and its members must constantly shift tactics, sometimes even carry out seemingly anti-Marxist actions, as its leadership adapts the revolution to changing circumstances.[44] Thus Communists possess the fanatic discipline needed to carry out deception on a scale beyond the imagination of most outsiders, including staging their own alleged "collapse."

Link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1220747/posts


6 posted on 06/12/2005 12:30:52 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: BringBackMyHUAC; struwwelpeter
Lay off Havel. A commie would have attempted a Milosevic-style bloodbath, not a "velvet divorce".
Czechs, Poles, Hungarians and Balts are simply returning to the Western Civ [and Ukraine is trying to come there]. After decades [3.5 centuries for Ukraine] of sitting up to one's ears in "communality" or "Russity" shit [see my earlier FRmail for the terms] the smell is not that easy to wash off - it could be expected to linger. The state apparatus of a contemporary state is a large one, and to completely purge it from the commies would have required mass importation of Western civil servants, for almost everybody who is both socially active and above certain age would have one's roots in the old apparatus. There were only so many (or so few) anti-communist dissidents, like Havel - not enough to staff a state.
7 posted on 06/12/2005 12:33:18 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: GSlob
Uvazhaemiy prepodavatel', you've already taken me to the woodshed over Havel... I wouldn't dare impugn his integrity again!
8 posted on 06/12/2005 12:41:30 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: GSlob

My response is already contained in post #4. I'm not talking about purging every single person who worked for the Communists, because that would (by definition) be everybody to one extent or another. I'm simply saying that the Communist elite need to be completely purged once and for all. What percentage of the population would such a purge represent?...Surely a fraction of one percent, no???


9 posted on 06/12/2005 12:44:46 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: GSlob

I mean C'mon, Gslob. You lived under Communism once. Wouldn't you like to see some of these inhuman scum brought to justice?


10 posted on 06/12/2005 12:51:32 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: struwwelpeter
I was just expanding on your point in #2. And in Zinovievite analysis, the Russian National Bolshevik Party arguments about "repression of their great ideology" are like scholastic debates from the 13 century about how many angels could simultaneousy dance on the tip of the needle.
Ideology is all about the "tuning up" the brains in such a way that ideologized individual would automatically exhibit the desired behavior in socially important situations - essentially, it is a Pavlovian conditioning as applied to the sphere of sociology.
Now, if Putin exhibits all the Pavlovian reflexes, and salivates at the ringing of the bell as expected, how important is it that the bell is set to 420 or 570 Hz and sounds at 80 instead of 82 decibel, for this is what Russian National Bolshevik Party insists on? It is like they would be insisting that Khodorkovsky be given not 9 but 15 years.
The only explanation would be a garden variety commie internecine squabble about minor doctrinal points and personalities (the history is choke full of them).
11 posted on 06/12/2005 1:00:53 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: BringBackMyHUAC
To bring them to justice in Ceausescu style would require a bloodbath of REALLY epic proportions, for neither Stalin nor Genghis Khan have ever dared to dream on that scale. There are not enough lampposts in any country to hang those who would need to be hanged, and even Gulag could handle at most 5-10% of country population at any one time. And here one would be talking about maybe 25-30% (nomenklatura and their lackeys, "activists", informers, plus their family members - essentially the mirrored Stalinist approach from Katyn, but much more thorough). The first precondition for such a treatment would be to have a large occupation army hellbent on genocide and atrocities.
12 posted on 06/12/2005 1:12:00 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: GSlob; struwwelpeter

==Ideology is all about the "tuning up" the brains in such a way that ideologized individual would automatically exhibit the desired behavior in socially important situations - essentially, it is a Pavlovian conditioning as applied to the sphere of sociology.

I have a prior engagement that I must attend, otherwise I would love to engage you on this point. Suffice it to say, I think the Pavlovian effects of ideology support my point of view just as much as yours (if not more). I will be sure to pick up this thread when I return. As always, thanks for your thoughtful response (you too struwwelpeter). Until next time--HUAC.


13 posted on 06/12/2005 1:24:03 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: BringBackMyHUAC

See #12. It is not 1 but 25%, otherwise the communist edifice would have collapsed within first years of its existence if not earlier. And it existed, and was strong enough to withstand quite a stress load - thus its internal strength had to be significant.


14 posted on 06/12/2005 1:45:43 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: BringBackMyHUAC
Hard for the person with full belly to believe the one who is starving! (Old Slavic proverb: Syty hladnemu neveri.) Naive paid for their stupidity at Jalta, no reason why shouldn't pay again, perhaps much bigger price.

Wake up America and vote the ba$tards out!

15 posted on 06/12/2005 2:09:11 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeePeee!)
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To: GSlob; Leo Carpathian

GSlob: Sorry I didn't see you post. I wasn't ignoring you.

Yes, it would be hard to find someone in the former Warsaw Pact without some history to him, or at least one qualified to run a country. Patton left mid- and lower-level Nazi bureaucrats keep the lights on, at least until a new generation of clerks could be trained. It may also be true in Iraq.

Leo: , that's very true. BTW: Ukrainians and Donbas Russians pronounce the 'g' in 'golod' as an 'h'. Where'd you pick that up?

16 posted on 06/12/2005 2:58:26 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: GSlob
==See #12. It is not 1 but 25%, otherwise the communist edifice would have collapsed within first years of its existence if not earlier.

1) If 25% are Communist, that means 75% are not.

2) Of that 25%, how many are truly committed Communists do you suppose?

3) They could start with purging those who held, let's say, the top three positions of every Communist organ.

4) If the ideological Communists behave like Pavlovian dogs, then all your really saying is that it is impossible to tell the difference between coordination and the stimulus-response automaton these people have become. In that case, let's identify these people and remove them from power (serves the same purpose for those who believe Golitsyn and those who have a simple wish for democracy).

5) Pavlovian birds of a feather tend to flock together...it's incomprehensible to me that this particular flock would fail to organize. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of the corruption in these "formerly" Communist societies is directly and indirectly attributable to the 25% you speak of (although, I believe their numbers to be far less, but I will assume you know better than I).

6) No matter which way you slice it, these people need to be gotten rid of...Failure to do so means we will be introducing these subversives (25%) into Europe via the EU and NATO. How on earth could that be of benefit to the West or to Eastern Europe's interests?

7) This is especially disconcerting to those of us who feel that the Communists faked their own collapse in order to reinvigorate their stalled drive towards expansion (which is the lifeblood of the Communism, just as it was the lifeblood of Tsarist Russia, but far more so).
18 posted on 06/12/2005 4:54:12 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: bobbdobbs

==Kind of late in the day to be re-writing history with Havel as a bad guy.

It's never too late to rewrite history so long as it results in the truth (on any subject).


19 posted on 06/12/2005 5:05:43 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: bobbdobbs

BTW, I'm not inventing this information, these are Czech nationals who are bringing this stuff to light (in English).


20 posted on 06/12/2005 5:15:46 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: struwwelpeter
Leo: , that's very true. BTW: Ukrainians and Donbas Russians pronounce the 'g' in 'golod' as an 'h'. Where'd you pick that up?

That was in Slovakian, they use both "G" and "H", no need to discriminate against letters :-)

22 posted on 06/12/2005 6:56:05 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeePeee!)
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To: Leo Carpathian
Oh that's right, West Slavonic group does that too. Did you know that there's a small Slovak-related language in East Germany and Poland?

What were you guys up to? I'm telling!

23 posted on 06/12/2005 7:02:57 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: Jan Malina
There were those who would sell their own mother and souls "for the good of children".
There were those who had character and rather went to jails and gulags than sell their souls to the red devil.
May their souls and memory be forever in our hearts and prayers.
Beware of split tongue prostitucians, vote the ba$tards out before is too late!
24 posted on 06/12/2005 7:07:23 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeePeee!)
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To: struwwelpeter
Did you know that there's a small Slovak-related language in East Germany and Poland?

Huh? Not confusing Slovak with Slavic (Slavonic)?

25 posted on 06/12/2005 7:10:14 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeePeee!)
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To: Leo Carpathian

I think it's called Lithic or Sith or something like that. Supposedly an endangered language, most closely related to Slovakian and Czech. By small language, I mean it only has 3 words. Their literature is limited, but at least you get out of Easter mass real fast.


26 posted on 06/12/2005 7:13:35 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: bobbdobbs

==So what? We have a lot of American nationals who talk trash too.

They aren't talking trash. They are merely pointing out that the Communist elite was never brought to justice...and that Vaclav Havel cooperated with the STB. If they are wrong, then PROVE them wrong.


29 posted on 06/12/2005 8:52:30 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: Jan Malina

==The estimated percentage of Czechs working for the communists was 1 out of every 4 (!!!!) and in Slovakia it was 1 out of every 2 people (!!!).

You know better than I do. All I'm saying is that if Communism really "collapsed" than both Russians and Eastern Europeans would quite naturally want to bring the Communist elite to justice (which is a far lower number than 25 to 50% of the population). As someone else pointed out, there would be no point in going after librarians, plumbers and electricians (so to speak). We want (and they should want) the big fish, no?


30 posted on 06/12/2005 8:58:12 PM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: BringBackMyHUAC

After reading various history pieces on Havel, I think that it's very likely that he changed his mindset a lot between 1964 and his effort with "nonpolitical politics."

But at the same time, I know that even though Communism is partially stopped in government practice for a short time, making difficult changes to a culture in a large population is another matter. It's easy for a people to try something new with extremely idealistic expectations only to revert when things don't work out the way they'd hoped or as quickly as they'd wished.


31 posted on 06/13/2005 12:33:57 AM PDT by familyop ("Let us try" sounds better, don't you think? "Essayons" is so...Latin.)
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To: familyop

Especially when 25 TO 50% of the population were working for the Communists in one capacity or another. As I mentioned above, I think the hardcore, committed Communists represent a far smaller number, probably 5-10%...and the number of elite Communists a smaller number still...but talk about a fifth column!!!! The upper echelons need to be purged and brought to justice, otherwise we are importing that very same fith column right into our own ranks (re: EU, NATO, etc).


32 posted on 06/13/2005 12:41:24 AM PDT by BringBackMyHUAC
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To: BringBackMyHUAC

You are correct in that there was no "collapse" of communism. It doesn't simply collapse, because it includes a cultural set of habits that are entrenched by long term patterns of popular thought. Here's a more likely analogy. The only kinds of religion that collapsed that I can recall were those involving increasing numbers of human sacrifices and those involving belief in strict celibacy on the part of every participant. And even they passed a thread of their beliefs to the present.

The best way to stop communism, IMO, would be to convince a communist society (by way of much convincing political speech) to give up all of the habits of thought that communism requires. That should take about 25 years, at least. That...from experience on my part at slowly eradicating a societal pathology from our own country. I started with a handful of other individuals and have been at it for about a decade. We've had some success, but we're only about halfway there.


33 posted on 06/13/2005 12:44:56 AM PDT by familyop ("Let us try" sounds better, don't you think? "Essayons" is so...Latin.)
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To: BringBackMyHUAC

The fact that he was not either brain damaged via personal bio / chem attack or outright murdered tells me he must have been on some sort of Communist "good" list. The use of false opposition is well known. Now, has he changed his ways since his presidency? The jury is still out on that score ...


34 posted on 06/13/2005 1:25:29 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: BringBackMyHUAC; struwwelpeter

Something I wonder about regarding the NBP .... I must wonder if they are not a vehicle actually being used by a certain quasi-National Socialist element (which may include Putin) to foment extremism in general. It sort of reminds me of accounts I've read of the early days of the SA. Now a key difference is that unlike Hitler at the time, Putin is already in power. But no matter, the same sort of dynamic may arise. A radicalizing force can steer public opinion and plant ideas. Ideas have consequences.


35 posted on 06/13/2005 1:30:04 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: Jan Malina

Ping!


36 posted on 06/13/2005 1:33:59 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: GOP_1900AD

've wondered about the National Bolsheviks -vs- National Socialists myself.

37 posted on 06/13/2005 1:55:10 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: GOP_1900AD
Scary stuff, from here:
NBP

ESSENCE OF NATIONAL-BOLSHEVISM
1. Essence of National-bolshevism is the incinerating hatred to antihuman SYSTEM of the trinity: liberalism / democracy / capitalism. The man of uprising, national-bolshevik sees his mission in destruction of SYSTEM up to the basis. On ideals spiritual courage, social and national justice the traditionalistic, hierarchical community will be constructed.

ENEMIES
2. Foreign enemies of National-bolshevism: the large Satan - USA and mondialists of Europe, incorporated in NATO and UN. Internal enemies: a class of "jackets" - boyars - bureaucrats, marauders - "new Russian", cosmopolitan intelligentsia.


THE PURPOSE
3. Global purpose of National-bolshevism is the creation of Empire from Vladivostok up to Gibraltar on the basis of Russian civilization. The purpose will be achieved in four stages: à) Transformation of Russian Federation into the national state Russia by Russian Revolution, b) Joining of the territories of former republics of the Soviet Union, inhabit by Russians c) Rallying around of Russians Eurasian nations of the former USSR. d) Creation of huge continental Empire.

THE STATE
4. Having come to power, NBP will make revolutionary on the scales of transformation in Russia, will construct the TOTAL STATE, the human rights will concede a place to the rights of a nation. Inside the country the iron Russian order, climate of discipline, bellicose and diligence will be established.nalization. 5 men work at the enterprise - it can be private (individual), 55 - should be collective, 555 - is in the property regional, 5555 - belongs to the state. In the transition period NBP establish economic dictatorship.

They sound like Dean's core supporters.
38 posted on 06/13/2005 2:05:16 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: GOP_1900AD
Here are some more Russian Neo-Nazi party flags:

RNE - Russian National Unity


Russian National Union


Northern Alliance


White Legion

I think Putin can keep them locked up for as long as he wants.

39 posted on 06/13/2005 2:14:35 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

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