Will the speed of light always be a barrier?

Air and Space Magaine. Vol # 1 March 1978 | March 1978 | Editorial Staff w/ Melvin B. Zistein

[vannrox]

Light Speed a Barrier?

To go, the children of tomorrow may have had to discover what is believed impossible today -- how to travel faster than light.

Mel Zisfein, deputy director of the national Air and Space Museum, and an aerosynamicist amoung other things, has noted a similarity between the way most people today regard "C," the speed of light, and the way many people a generation or so ago regarded "a", the speed of sound. For this publication, he sketched the illustrations which appear on the following page, and drafted the following...

"Some people used to look at the so-called compressibility effect curves and said that we'll never fly a winged aircraft faster than the speed of sound. As we increase speed from ero, the forces associated with air pressure, like drag, will rise ever faster and tend toward infinity as we approach the speed of sound, which is a barrier we can't pass.

"However, people knew that artillery shells - although not winged aircraft - went faster than the speed of sound, so perhaps there was a chance for airplanes. Subsequently, on October 14 1947, the Bell X-1 flew supersonically, and today, supersonic flight is an everyday occurrence.

"Earlier, people working with the flow of gases through nozzles had run into a similar manifestation of a 'sound barrier'. When a gas, like air, was put through a simple nozzle

...the speed of sound "a", looked like the highest achievable velocity. The more pressure that was applied across the nozzle, the more energy was dissipated in shocks int eh nozzle, leaving the exit velocity no higher than the speed of sound. However the De Laval nozzle was invented...

in which the exit speed could be supersonic.

"Now, some people look at the equations and curves of einstein's special theory of Relativity like the one form mass 'm' (formula to the right).

They notice the similarity in form to the earlier aerodynamic pressure equation and its curve . Some people say we;ll never move faster than "c:, the speed of light. As we increase speed from zero, the mass of any body will rise ever faster and tend toward infinity, as we approach the speed of light, which is a barrier we can't pass.

'There is much evidence to support this position. From where we stand today (1978), exceeding the speed of light appears to be a vstly more difficult endeavor than exceeding the speed of sound. Maybe however, that it is only because we haven't figured out how to do it.

"The basic physical principles are vastly different. But I remain fascinated with the mathematical similarities between the pressure equation and the curve of the sound barrier, and the mass equation and the curve of the light barrier.I just wonder if there is some wa which we will find some day to enable us to drive particles, and perhaps space vehicles, to speeds faster than "c".

[vannrox]

This was written in the days when I was a young Aerospace Engineering student. Quite a bit has happened since this article was written. Namely Jimmy Carter and his change of direction for NASA. Anyone remember the crash of the SKY-LAB? Then Ronald Regan who wanted to develop NASP, the space station, and the SDI....only to Bill Clinton and Al Gore divert all the funds for the Children...

There are questions whether "c" is a constant at all...There are questions in the fundamental action and behavoir and assumtptions of matter, and all of this has resulted the having subatomic particles travel faster than the speed of light.

Perhaps some day we might be able to travel faster than light. It certainly would be cool. But I doublt that it will be in my lifetime.

[bwteim]

A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle in which travel occurs at the speed of thought. That'd be fast.

[SamAdams76]

I have arrived from 150 years in the future to tell you that the light barrier will eventually be broken. However, we still haven't invented a reliable battery. That's why I'm still stuck in 2005. My time machine has a dead nyglohyphelium cell and they won't be invented until 2057.

Until then, we have seventeen more bad Coldplay albums to suffer through.

[cripplecreek]

You told us about that next year already.

[billdcon]

Perfect post. LMAO.

[Michael Goldsberry]

There was a young lady named Bright,
who traveled much faster that light....
she started one day,
in a Relative way,
and returned on the previous night.

[GSlob]

Care to post some stock market tables?

[EdHallick]

The speed of light has been broken many times. Look how fast Democrats went from complaining "GW did nothing to prevent 911" at the 911 hearings, to complaining "GW is trying to prevent 911" at Gitmo.

[spinestein]

I heard you can make a flux capacitor out of a cell phone, a DVD player, and a few miscellaneous parts from Radio Shack.

Good Luck.

[SamAdams76]

I would but I flunked out of history...and economics.

[Abcdefg]

"the speed of thought. That'd be fast."
Not for me it wouldn't!

[EdHallick]

Thank you. I`m glad I`m not the only person who can`t stand that idiot band.

[edeal]

I am from 151 years in the future and I am here to tell you, don't bother coming back. I came back in time to escape the Armageddon that has come since you messed with he time stream. Flower power is back, and all thats played on the radio are New Kids on the Block cover bands.

On a lighter note, the galactic congress has raised the light speed limit of light in Metroplanetarian areas to C+5 MPH and has eliminated it altogether in galactic backwaters (like Space Montana) during daylight hours.

[bwteim]

LOL. I "thought" you might say that ;)

[Mr Ramsbotham]

Mel Zisfein, deputy director of the national Air and Space Museum, and an aerosynamicist amoung other things, has noted a similarity between the way most people today regard "C," the speed of light, and the way many people a generation or so ago regarded "a", the speed of sound.

Proof positive that travel at the speed of light is not only possible, but inevitable.

[boofus]

If you take into account the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and quantum mechanics, wouldn't it almost guarantee that C is not a constant?

If you consider every possible path for a photon to travel from point A to B, some paths will naturally be longer than others. If it takes the same amount of time to get from A to B along every path then the photon must be traveling at different speeds.

The probability of the photon taking a very long round-about path would be miniscule, but it would still be > 0. So at least theoretically the speed of light in a vacuum is not constant.

[Larry Lucido]

"What is the speed of dark?"

"I put instant coffee into my microwave oven and almost went back in time."

- Stephen Wright

[EdHallick]

Actually something does travel at the speed of light. Photons. We need to build a ship entirely of photons, then we could have photon torpedoes and destroy the Kingons.

[rkhampton]

has noted a similarity between the way most people today regard "C," the speed of light, and the way many people a generation or so ago regarded "a", the speed of sound.

I pretty much stopped taking this article serious when I reached the about statement.

[Moonman62]

c is actually a ratio between two other constants, one for electricity and one for magnetism.

[EdHallick]

I spilled Spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.

[tophat9000]

They notice the similarity in form to the earlier aerodynamic pressure equation and its curve . Some people say we;ll never move faster than "c:, the speed of light. As we increase speed from zero, the mass of any body will rise ever faster and tend toward infinity, as we approach the speed of light, which is a barrier we can't pass.

Yes alot have...the "so called" speed of light barrier will fall and the idea how will most likely come from someone to "dumb" to know it can't be done

[edeal]

has noted a similarity between the way most people today regard "C," the speed of light, and the way many people a generation or so ago regarded "a", the speed of sound.

I pretty much stopped taking this article serious when I reached the about statement.

Maybe they should have taken a poll and asked the people what the speed of light is.

[isom35]

not even Scotty can change the laws of physics...

[boofus]

not even Scotty can change the laws of physics...

But Q can.

[Moonman62]

A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle in which travel occurs at the speed of thought. That'd be fast.

The process of cognition is quite slow when compared to current technology. For instance, a loud sound takes a good fraction of a second before we are aware of it.

Of course what is almost certainly meant by the author is that we could be in a place as soon as we think of it. That would be a neat trick, especially of we are thinking of some place on the other side of the Universe.

[edeal]

not even Scotty can change the laws of physics...

But Q can.

And the supreme court will probably try...

[RightWhale]

Cherenkov radiation ought to bring the Einstein/Maxwell speed into question. Then there is Goedel. In our equations we like to put t as if that has something to do with reality. Light is a phenom of electromagnetic fields. There are other kinds of fields. The speed of photons may have nothing to do with reality, just our intuitions.

[microgood]

There are questions whether "c" is a constant at all.

I put my money on Einstein. They are still proving his theories true many years after his death. It may have not been a constant during the early stages of development of the universe, but in the fairly steady state we are in I think it is fairly constant, maybe changing a bit every billion years or so.

[Trajan88]

The speed of my thought is inversely proportional to the amount of Jack Daniel's I've consumed.

WWJD?... Who wants Jack Daniel's?

Heck, I do.

Trajan88

[bwteim]

"what is almost certainly meant by the author is that we could be in a place as soon as we think of it."

Yep. And it would be a neat trick.

[Red Sea Swimmer]

Very funny.

[GSlob]

What would be the speed of sound in the rocket engine exhaust gases at the temperatures and pressures obtaining in rocket engine exhaust? (or at t°, p conditions in the bow shock wave of a flying bullet?- and how would it compare with the velocity of these gases or of the bullet?).

[Kokojmudd]

What about the Speed of Darkness which was discovered by the secret scientist himself Momus A. Morgus, Esq. ?

[Larry Lucido]

We need to build a ship entirely of photons

Here's my theory. Build a photon ship with headlights mounted on it. When you reach the speed of light, turn on the headlights. Now you've got light travelling at the speed of light squared. Turns relativity on its head.

[Cloud William]

Courtesy of the late B. Kliban:

[Oztrich Boy]

not even Scotty can change the laws of physics...

But Q can.

Huh? he can't even do anything about 007 misusing his latest gadget.

[rconawa]

Why don't we just ask our liberal politicians to pass a law that requires us to travel faster than light. That should work as well as so many other laws they like and I am sure they would be happy to do it. Plus, they would have the added benefit of future monies being thrown at the poor and disadvantaged to make sure they can afford to travel this fast - a "no one left behind" plan.

[GSlob]

Well, if one could figure out what and how to do with the space so that the speed of light in it increases [somewhat like heating/compressing air in the immediate vicinity (shock wave) of a flying bullet] then superlight speed flight (vs. normal light speed) would become possible.

[fish hawk]

Excuse me but the speed of light is not a barrier. We don't know of anything that can even come close with our technology. (how can a gate be a barrier if you are a thousand miles down the road? )Just a thought.

[Brilliant]

except that is the fundamental crux of relativity.... Light goes the same speed no matter how fast you are traveling. Turning on the light when you are moving fast doesn't make it go faster.

[Kirkwood]

Think of all the things we could fix if we could go back in time...

[gr8eman]

Lithium Ion batteries are reliable. So are whining Brits...especially when they set it to music.

[B4Ranch]

These super fast computers that ca do 5000 different calculations at the same time, when all the various factors are calculated, are they working close to the speed of light?

[maestro]

?.....Will the speed of light always be a barrier?

LOL......the speed of creator 'light' has NEVER been a barrier to Creator-God 'Jesus of Nazareth'.....!

He 'is' the 'light' and much more!

Absolutes count!

/finite relativity

:-)

[Paul_Denton]

Maybe not through "brute force," But I am sure one day we will have technology to get around that. Wormholes, quantum tunneling, etc.

[ElTianti]

She came from Planet Claire
I knew she came from there
She drove a Plymouth Satellite
Faster than the speed of light

[thedilg]

[has noted a similarity between the way most people today regard "C," the speed of light, and the way many people a generation or so ago regarded "a", the speed of sound.

I pretty much stopped taking this article serious when I reached the about statement.]

As did I. Decades ago I was involved in aviation as I am today. There was never a moment that I didn't believe that exceeding the speed of sound was doable. There were thousands of evidences that it was being done on a routine basis in many ways. On the other hand I know of nothing that has exceeded the speed of light, to include the next to nothing photon.

I know that some believe that subatomic particles have been supposedly observed at beyond "C" but I remain skeptical. Could we be measuring wrong, or observing wrong, etc.

Subatomic particles tend to live only for the tiniest speck of time. It is most likely well beyond our technology to measure it accurately. I need more evidence.

Godspeed, The Dilg

[birbear]

Doesn't Zephram Cochrane invent warp travel in 2063?

[vannrox]

Sorry, I should of posted the equations. The equation that he was referring to was the coefficient of pressure was equal to one over the square root of one minus the vehicle velocity squared divided by the speed of sound squared. The equation of this when plotted of pressure force, C sub rho starts at unity and then increases exponentionally at subsonic speeds approaching infinity at the speed of sound at altitude. (the equations make the assumption of stable atmospheric conditions.) The result, was that a rapidly decreasing pressure force on the aeroplane when plotted at speeds past "a".

The point that the good doctor was making was that the vehicle mass approached infinity through use of the same equation form. Starting at mass > 0 once can see that the equation of the vehicle mass properties increased such that m was equal to one over the squareroot of one minus the ship velocity squared divided by the speed of light c squared. There is nothing wrong or erronous in this equation. The relationships were and still are clear. I must apologize for not placing the equations in this post as I do not know to do so.

I suggest that you physically write out what I said in proper notation and plot the results out. The answers are very clear.

Incidently, this article was taken from a class handout for one of my Aerospace Propulsion classes at Syracuse University. Our homework, as I recall it, was to break down the equation and show exactly how the geometry of the X-1 inlet nozzle could be compared to that of a variable mass object. Now that was, gosh almost 30 years ago, but I can assure you that the technical relationships were sound.

I do however, have a real issue with your blanket of skoff. I find many really ignorant people use this technique quite often. Then pump up their chests and make it seem like they know what they are talking about. But they do not know anything. I think that you are one of these people. Careful with your Blanket of Skoff. You just might be called on the carpet to defend our postion. I find that many people like to denegrate things that they do not understand. It seems like you are just one such person.