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FR Poll Thread: "The Patriot Act Should be..."
Free Republic ^ | 6-13-2005 | DTogo

Posted on 06/13/2005 10:21:02 AM PDT by DTogo

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To: PaRebel
F. Roosevelt regarding the internment camps

F, Roosevelt...that's what I was thinking. lol

341 posted on 06/15/2005 7:30:42 AM PDT by colorcountry (Um....I got nothin')
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To: Lazamataz
While poking around the 'net today, I ran across someone's blog. They had a thread that discussed the aclu fighting against the Patriot Act.(imagine that) Seems the aclu doesn't like it because,in part, the govt/FBI can use that 'Act' as a reason to investigate people who criticize the govt's behaviors. Govt/FBI has use of National Security Letters to achieve that.

Got tin-foil???? Cuz here is an article/thread I posted a few years ago. (we're not allowed to resurrect them for some reason)

The Secret FISA Court: Rubber Stamping Our Rights

By Philip Colangelo

Covert Action Quarterly

11-27-00

Seven judges on a secret court have authorized all but one of over 7,500 requests to spy in the name of National Security. They meet in secret, with no published orders, opinions, or public record. Those spied on May never know of the intrusion. Now, Clinton has expanded the powers to include not only electronic, but physical searches.

The aftershock of the Oklahoma City bombing sent Congress scurrying to trade off civil liberties for an illusion of public safety. A good ten weeks before that terrible attack, however with a barely noticed pen stroke President Bill Clinton virtually killed off the Fourth Amendment when he approved a law to expand the already extraordinary powers of the strangest creation in the history of the federal judiciary.

Since its founding in 1978, a secret court created by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA rhymes with ice -a) has received 7,539 applications to authorize electronic surveillance within the U.S. In the name of national security, the court has approved all but one of these requests from the Justice Department on behalf of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency. Each of these decisions was reached in secret, with no published orders, opinions, or public record. The people, organizations, or embassies spied on were not notified of either the hearing or the surveillance itself. The American Civil Liberties Union was not able to unearth a single instance in which the target of a FISA wiretap was allowed to review the initial application. Nor would the targets be offered any opportunity to see transcripts of the conversations taped by the government and explain their side of the story.

Without access to such materials, said Kate Martin of the ACLU, targets of FISA searches are denied any meaningful opportunity to contest the basis for the execution of the FISA search.

OPEN-ENDED SURVEILLANCE

When Clinton signed Executive Order 12949 on February 9, the frightening mandate of the FISA, court was greatly expanded: It now has legal authority to approve black-bag operations to authorize Department of Justice (DoJ) requests to conduct physical as well as electronic searches, without obtaining a warrant in open court, without notifying the subject, without providing an inventory of items seized. The targets need not be under suspicion of committing a crime, but may be investigated when probable cause results solely from their associations or status: for example, belonging to, or aiding and abetting organizations deemed to pose a threat to U.S. national security. Furthermore, despite a lowered standard for applying the Fourth Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure than is necessary in other U.S. courts, under the 1995 expansion, evidence gathered by the FISA court may now be used in criminal trials. Previously, evidence was collected and stockpiled solely for intelligence purposes.

LEGALIZING THE AMES SEARCH

Granting new powers to the FISA court was accomplished quietly and treated as a non-event in the national media. The lack of reporting was somehow fitting, though, following as it did the silent debate last year when Congress rubberstamped the annual Intelligence Authorization Act.

Some legal minds found the whole exercise positively refreshing. The fact that this was done with a minimum of fuss and posturing on both sides, and without having to have a debate that tries to roll up the corners of classified information is very impressive, cheered former NSA General Counsel Stewart Baker.

Reportedly, the Clinton administration had not always been enthusiastic about expanding the court's powers. Like its predecessors, it operated under the assumption that the executive already had inherent authority to exempt itself from Fourth Amendment constraints and could order warrantless searches to protect national security. Nonetheless, the government avoided allowing this inherent authority to be tested in the courts.

Then along came Aldrich Ames. The spy case proved a convenient vehicle on which to hitch expansion of state power. It also offered a glimpse at the state-of-the-art domestic counterintelligence techniques that might well be turned on an activist group near you. Following months of electronic and physical surveillance which included a break-in of Ames' car and searches through his office and family trash FBI agents were finally turned loose in the early morning hours of October 9, 1993. They didn't `pick' locks like in the movies; they made their own keys. Among other agents in the FBI, the consensus was unanimous: The tech agents were geniuses.

Thanks to a warrant authorized by Attorney General Janet Reno, a team of agents from the sprawling National Security Division had permission to enter the Ames home in Arlington, Va. There was only one minor problem. The attorney general of the United States does not have the authority to order a warrantless physical search of a citizen's home, argued Professor Jonathan Turley of George Washington University National Law Center. The Aldrich Ames search in my view was obviously and egregiously unconstitutional.

Other civil liberties lawyers agree with this evaluation, and the Justice Department itself was concerned enough about the question to refer to this problem when it negotiated a deal with Ames in order to avoid trial. While Ames was sentenced to life in prison, his wife Rosario received five years. We didn't get to the point of litigation, I regret to say, said Ames' lawyer Plato Cacheris. The problem was that Ames very much wanted to see that his wife was treated a little more softly than he was being treated.

Now eager to put a stamp of judicial impartiality on the hazy executive branch doctrine of inherent authority, the Justice Department immediately got behind the bill to expand the FISA court's power. Soon after Ames pleaded guilty last year to spying, administration officials began arguing that adherenceto traditional Fourth Amendment protections for American citizens would unduly frustrate counterintelligence efforts against spies operating in the U.S.

Physical searches to gather foreign intelligence depend on secrecy, argued Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick. If the existence of these searches were known to the foreign power targets, they would alter their activities to render the information useless. Gorelick went on to explain that A [traditional] search can only be made when there's probable cause to believe a crime is involved, whereas a national-security search can be made at a substantially earlier stage. We often don't know what we're looking for when we go in, she observed.

THE PRICE OF SECRECY

The possibility of FISA-sanctioned fishing expeditions was only one of the potential abuses that alarmed legal scholars and people concerned with civil liberties. It's absolutely ripe for abuse, said New York City defense lawyer Ron Kuby. There are hundreds of solidarity groups that American citizens work with, and all of those groups could be targets under FISA. 16 These groups and individuals, engaged in legitimate dissent and solidarity work with the victims of U.S. foreign policy around the world, fear that their First and Fourth Amendment rights will be eroded.

Others worry that under cover of secrecy, the court would exceed even its own broad legal mandate. Clearly the FISA court was strengthened to allow the government to conduct searches they would not be allowed to conduct under the traditional constitutional provisions, said Turley. That means the government could attempt and fail to secure a search warrant under traditional constitutional arguments, then go to the FISA court and convert the case artificially into a national security investigation and secure approval for the very same search.

In the post-Oklahoma bombing atmosphere, the temptation to broadly interpret national security to include homegrown terrorism is likely to increase. Defenders of the FISA court point out that there are lengthy provisions written into the original legislation to minimize the impact of FISA-authorized surveillance on innocent Americans.

Of course, since no information about the actions of the court is permitted to escape the sealed FISA chambers, the public is expected to accept on blind faith that the minimization procedures are functioning properly and the various law enforcement and intelligence agencies are not overstepping their bounds. But given an extensive and well-documented pattern of past government abuses, Turley's warning of future abuses seems safe. Even when warrantless searches were unambiguously illegal, the government conducted thousands of them and violated the civil rights not only of possible spies, but of people engaged in constitutionally protected dissent. Secret searches of Americans' homes and papers in the name of national security were one of the worst civil liberties abuses of the Cold War, noted the ACLU's Martin. Instead of approving them, the Congress should outlaw them.

Even if the court and law enforcement agencies did not overstep their powers, legal scholars assert that warrantless searches are unconstitutional, no matter what the context or motivation. The court's defenders, on the other hand, argue that the end justifies the means. Gorelick recently conceded that the government could not gather as much evidence under the traditional standard of the Fourth Amendment. By this logic, notes Kate Martin, It is also true that torture allows the government to get information it would not otherwise get.

While refusing to be specific, FBI Director Louis Freeh argues that national security is so important that it constitutes a special category. He testified before Congress that, "Because any discussion of the importance of FISA-based electronic surveillance would involve highly sensitive matters and highly classified information, suffice it to say that information derived from FISA electronic surveillance is critical to the president of the United States, the National Security Council, the intelligence community, the Department of Defense, and the State Department.

The Supreme Court, however, has never endorsed the concept of a national security exception for physical searches. In 1972, it ruled that the Fourth Amendment prohibits warrantless surveillance of domestic targets. The Court specifically warned that the danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts under so vague a concept as the power to protect `domestic security.'

But given the secrecy surrounding the FISA court, even finding a test case to challenge incursion on Fourth Amendment rights may be difficult. Most people surveilled under the authority of the court remain blissfully ignorant that a search has taken place.

CASE IN POINT

Among the handful of FISA-tainted investigations that have become public is the prosecution of Khader Hamide and Michel Shehadeh of the so-called Los Angeles Eight for their membership in the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. In that case, Martin said, permanent residents whom the government sought to deport based on their First Amendment activities were informed that they had been subject to FISA surveillance. The government then secured a completely ex parte ruling that the surveillance was legal in a proceeding in which the [U.S.] residents were not even allowed to participate. That ruling then foreclosed forever any adversary hearing on the legality of the surveillance.

In another case, people not themselves targets of a FISA-authorized telephone tap were hauled into court for having the misfortune of calling somebody who was under electronic surveillance. In 1988, after activists Vernon Bellecourt, Bill Means, and Bob Brown phoned a member of the Peoples' Committee for Libyan Students, they were ordered to testify before a grand jury investigating the group. When the three men refused to cooperate and testify even with immunity, they were slapped with a citation for contempt. James Cacheris was one of the federal judges who issued that citation in support of the FISA warrant. Five years later, he was appointed to the secret court.

SEVEN MEN AND A RUBBER STAMP

Although its powers have been enhanced to include physical searches, the FISA court retains the same low profile structure that it had in 1978. On the first tier are seven federal judges, appointed to staggered seven-year terms by the chief justice of the Supreme Court. Each judge takes a turn reviewing applications submitted by the attorney general. He or she sits in a sealed, vault-like chamber on the top floor of the Justice Department headquarters, where the door is always locked and guarded and the room is regularly inspected for bugs.

In the unlikely event that the first tier rejects an application, the Department of Justice can appeal to the FISA Court of Review. Should this three-member panel of judges also deny the request, it could then be heard by the Supreme Court. Those last two progressions up the judicial hierarchy have proved strictly unnecessary, however. Federal Judge Robert W. Warren from Wisconsin, senior panelist on the second tier FISA Court of Review, joked that he has not exactly been overwhelmed by the workload since his appointment in 1989.

We've never met since I've been on it, said Warren. I was sent a designation by the Chief Justice, and I asked a couple of people what in the world the court did because I had not even heard of it before I got that designation. I also had some correspondence with my brethren on the court and we've talked to each other and said, `What are we supposed to do?' and, `When is something going to happen?' Nothing ever has happened. It's an empty title as far as I am concerned at this point.

Based on the remarkable record of servility the first-string spy court has achieved on surveillance requests 15 years with only one rejection, and that one on technical grounds new requests for physical searches are unlikely to cut into the Review Court's happy schedule.

THE NOOSE TIGHTENS

This recent strengthening of the FISA court fits comfortably in the pattern established in the late 1970s after the massive FBI crime spree against political activists. When the illegalities were documented by the Senate's Church Committee instead of stepping in and stopping political policing activities by DoJ and intelligence agencies Congress took exactly the opposite approach. It waved a flag over a pattern government activities that had been criminal, draped it in authoritative language, and magically made it all legal. Since that time, through a series of laws and executive orders, policy-makers have further chipped away at freedoms previously presumed to be sacred.

With the FISA court now able to authorize physical searches as well as electronic surveillance simply by citing national security concerns the elite legal circle is nearly complete. The act is a triumph for our constitutional system of checks and balances, former Indiana Sen. Birch Bayh explained in the twilight of the Cold War. It establishes that the authority to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance in this country will be shared by all three branches of government.

In the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing, Democrats and Republicans are competing to come up with more ingenious ways to erode civil liberties. Congress will likely pass a beefed up Omnibus Counterterrorism Act which will (see pp. 50-52) create secret FISA-like courts in which non-citizens can be investigated and deported without access to evidence or recourse to appeal. Given the current political atmosphere, the Clinton administration's past support for expanding the FISA court's authority, as well as a long, sorry history of abuse, the elite legal posse will no longer need to strain very hard to pull the noose right around the Bill of Rights.

Addendum

From Tim Hunter timhunter@juno.com To:

intelforum@his.com Date: 11-25-00 Subject: Foreign

Intelligence and Surveillance Act

Contact Washington, DC attorney Ern Reynolds for leads. Ern has tripped over FISA a number of times, is getting to be an expert. Four years ago he never heard of it.

Each FISA plaintiff is not notified of the charges, is not advised of the trial date, not allow a public trial, not allowed to appear in his own defense, not allowed counsel, not allowed to rebut testimony, not allowed a transcript of the proceedings, and not allowed to appeal. In fact, (this is the incredible part) the accused is not allowed to be present at his trial. A real Federal District Court Judge presides over this sorry excuse for legality, and they rotate on some cyclical basis. Access to the FISA Court is actually provided several agencies, not only the CIA. No Federal agency has ever lost a case in FISA Court (hard to believe) except one case. In that case the judge let the agency refile and then the agency/court (hard to tell them apart) successfully convicted somebody.

Before the 1978 Act agencies didn't have to bother with the FISA Court and just went out and "did their thing." In an odd way the FISA Court is actually a tiny step in the right direction. Problem is there haven't been any more steps in the right direction!

The CIA's activity in the US is well known and gets crazier and crazier. The branch of the CIA carrying missions within the US is the same as overseas: the Clandestine Service. While its motives are often excellent, patriotic, etc they are "result-oriented" and disinterested in the fact that their actions violate the rule of law and even good intelligence practices. Many of their targets are bad guys who should be given a fair trial, etc. Put another way, these boys prefer the streamlined approach of the spy/assassin to the hard labor of real police. Since there is no effective oversight of their work, they tend to wind up doing the wrong thing for the right reasons and are unheralded. Some of them are defiantly criminal and take pride in using the CIA as their front. Who can blame them? It surely takes a skilled and talented criminal to make the CIA his plaything.

Tim Hunter

Intelligence Forum (http://www.intelforum.org) is sponsored by Intelligence and National Security, a Frank Cass journal (http://www.frankcass.com/jnls/ins.htm)

342 posted on 06/15/2005 7:32:51 AM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: mommadooo3
FISA...I was discussing this very thing yesterday with a knothead. No matter how much I cut and pasted, showing them how very wrong some of this stuff was....no sale.

We can thank Jimmmah Carter, I believe it was created by him. But don't hold me to it. I didn't read all your post since I read it on the FISA court, site.

343 posted on 06/15/2005 7:41:36 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: Lazamataz; All
BTW....here's the link to the old thread WITH FReeper comments
344 posted on 06/15/2005 7:42:07 AM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: pbrown

LOL...see my post #344. The comments are interesting.


345 posted on 06/15/2005 7:44:20 AM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: mommadooo3
I liked this little round up of the FISA court too.

FISA

346 posted on 06/15/2005 7:56:11 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: mommadooo3
You posted that five years ago. Amazing. I read some of the comments. They are like a mirror to todays comments.

Wen Ho Lee sure got away with it, didn't he...

347 posted on 06/15/2005 8:02:52 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pbrown
Yeah. I wish I knew how to repost the thread in its entirety.(too much HTML'ing fer ME)

This whole Patriot Act/FISA mess is a definite slippery slope for the freedom of our Republic.

Sadly, too many want to trade their freedoms for certain 'chains' of 'security'.

348 posted on 06/15/2005 8:30:42 AM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: mommadooo3
Sadly, too many want to trade their freedoms for certain 'chains' of 'security'.

Once they lose those freedoms for the chains of security(nice expression by the way) they'll be scratching their heads, wondering how it happened, but never admit even to themselves, they were partly to blame.

349 posted on 06/15/2005 8:36:13 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pbrown

Thanks. here are some quotations that MORE people need to meditate upon.


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin





Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
-- William Pitt, 18 Nov 1783


There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of
the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in
power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.
-- James Madison


350 posted on 06/15/2005 9:20:09 AM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: mommadooo3
There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation. -- James Madison

That is all the more true today. It's a shame so many cannot see they want to give away their rights for a false sense of security.

351 posted on 06/15/2005 9:28:25 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pbrown

Thank you for keeping this thread alive. With the reference to the thread 5 years ago, we witness a great change in FReeper opinion about the Bill of Rights.

It seems that more recent signups support the erosion of our freedoms, while early "O.G." FReepers stand firm against the "Patriot" Act as well as the FISA "Kafka Court".

I am deeply troubled by statements made by some supporters of the Patriot Act, (ie. 'If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear'). Frightening....

RD



352 posted on 06/15/2005 9:34:01 AM PDT by reagandemocrat
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To: pbrown

Hate to bring a religious tilt to this. But, since God knows what's in the hearts of ALL men, and since it's OBVIOUS He was behind the birth of this nation, then He HAS to DO SOMETHING to save the USA. THAT is my 'militant' prayer to Him. And I'm SURE it's the prayer of amny MORE patriots, who sorrow over the direction this country is taking.(just not in the same type of words. LOL!)

FR USED to be THE jewel for things American/patriotism//activism. Has that love really grown cold now that Bush is in office?


353 posted on 06/15/2005 9:46:56 AM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: reagandemocrat
Thank you for keeping this thread alive. With the reference to the thread 5 years ago, we witness a great change in FReeper opinion about the Bill of Rights.

You're welcome.

I'm a relative newbie myself, but I see what can and will happen to our wonderful nation if we don't start standing up now.

It seems that more recent signups support the erosion of our freedoms, while early "O.G." FReepers stand firm against the "Patriot" Act as well as the FISA "Kafka Court".

I keep going back to those sites and read more and more about them. For FReepers not to see the hazards and threats to our very liberty is disheartening.

I am deeply troubled by statements made by some supporters of the Patriot Act, (ie. 'If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear'). Frightening....

God forgive me, I uttered that phrase myself when it was first introduced after 9-11, before I became aware of just what I was willing to trade my freedon for. Nothing is worth my freedom...nothing.

If someone like me can decipher the true meaning of the Patriot Act and the FISA court, some of the more learned on this site should be able too also.

354 posted on 06/15/2005 9:51:18 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: reagandemocrat
I am deeply troubled by statements made by some supporters of the Patriot Act, (ie. 'If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear').

As an old-timer, I remember that we, FReepers, were doing nothing wrong, during the klintler years. But that didn't stop many of us from rooting out the corruption/anti-BOR actions/etc. Uncovering the lies was actively pursued. The TRUTH is what we INSISTED upon.

355 posted on 06/15/2005 9:54:05 AM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: pbrown
I keep going back to those sites and read more and more about them

If you click on my name, it'll take you to my homepage, there you can click on 'links'. It's a start. You can do the same for the old-timers on some of the threads there. (if they're still members) Then read some of THEIR links/bookmarks.

If I've told ya something you already know, forgive me. LOL!

I often wonder what it will take to wake the sheeple up to the slowly encroaching tyranny.(even THOUGH it's coming dressed as 'republican')

356 posted on 06/15/2005 10:03:30 AM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: Lazamataz
Gotta agree with that, well said. Ditch the Patriot act. It's BS.


357 posted on 06/15/2005 10:08:13 AM PDT by BigBadWolf (For every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three.)
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To: mommadooo3
Hate to bring a religious tilt to this.

Religion plays a big part in our country's creation. One need only look at our founding father's to see just how much a part it played.

I don't attend church services, haven't for many many years. But I pray and read my Bible. We discuss God and his word in my home. I found too many hypocrits in the churches I would attend. I tried several before I gave up. The word of God is not only found inside the walls of wood and brick. I have many closets in my home.

I was faced with a choice as I saw it. Either bring God into the forefront of our country, or sweep him under the rug. The latter I could not and would not do.

Forgive my talk of religion on this thread as well.

FR has some terrific people on it. I'm just amazed at how many have no problem with the PA. I thought this would be an oasis of those who would see the PA as I do.

358 posted on 06/15/2005 10:09:46 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: mommadooo3
If I've told ya something you already know, forgive me. LOL!

You didn't, no need to apologize.

I'll go to your homepage now, thanks.

I often wonder what it will take to wake the sheeple up to the slowly encroaching tyranny.(even THOUGH it's coming dressed as 'republican')

I can answer that question. IMHO...it will take another attack on this country that will make 9-11 pale in comparison. God help us all.

359 posted on 06/15/2005 10:14:00 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: mommadooo3
"... when you see a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not wait until he has struck before you crush him."...FDR

I really like that one. That is my own line of thinking.

360 posted on 06/15/2005 10:16:23 AM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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