Looks like SOCOM is still DoD.
Posted on 06/15/2005 10:02:43 AM PDT by spetznaz
June 14, 2005: The U.S. Marine Corps has agreed to turn over a force of 2,500 specially trained marines to SOCOM (Special Operations Command.) Bowing to pressure from the Department of Defense, and SOCOM, the marines are the last of the services to make such a contribution. Created in 1987, SOCOM gained control over army Special Forces (including Civil Affairs, Psychological Warfare and special helicopter units), navy SEALs and air force commandoes and special aviation units. But the marines said they had nothing to offer.
The marine SOCOM force will consist of 400 marines trained to provide military instruction for foreign armed forces. This has long been a Special Forces chore, and will still be. But the addition of marine training troops will take some of the pressure off Special Forces to provide this service.
The marines will also provide over a thousand marines trained as "special operations-capable." The marines have been training some of their troops to be "special operations-capable" for over a decade. But SOCOM has different standards, and skill requirements. Once the "special operations-capable" marines are turned over to SOCOM control, SOCOM will provide additional training. As part of this deal, the SOCOM marines will be available for Marine Corps operations when SOCOM doesn’t need them. It’s likely that once SOCOM gets control of these marines, they will keep them busy indefinitely.
Finally, the marines will provide some support units. These will include stuff like dog handlers (and dogs trained for military tasks), some logistical units and an Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Company.
SOCOM will also keep control over Special Operations Detachment 1, a force of 86 marines trained as commandoes. SOCOM originally wanted as many as 4,000 marines, and the final deal may result in the marines giving up more than 2,500 troops.
June 5, 2005: The U.S. Marine Corps is playing hard to get during efforts to arrange marine participation in special operations work with SOCOM (Special Operations Command). Under pressure from the Department of Defense, the marines have put together a force of training teams for working with foreign armed forces. This relieves the U.S. Army Special Forces of this task. The marines have put together 24 teams, with 13 marines in each one.
When SOCOM was established in 1987, all the services were asked to subordinate their special operations forces to SOCOM. The marines were the only ones to refuse, partly on the grounds that they believed all their troops were elite, and partly because the only elite force (by marine standards) they had was Force Recon. But the marines could not give up Force Recon, as it was the strategic recon teams the marines used for their own operations. But, under pressure from SOCOM after September 11, 2001, the marines agreed to help out. First, the marines created Detachment One (DET1), an 86 man force of commandoes who worked with the SEALs. DET1 became operational in 2003. The marines already lose a few dozen high quality troops each year to U.S. Army Special Forces, Navy SEALs and air force special operations units. So it was felt that DET1 would reduce this somewhat.
Now SOCOM wants several battalions of marines made available to SOCOM, and the marines are resisting. The marines have noted that once a service lets units go to SOCOM, they never get them back. While SOCOM picks up a lot of the costs of the units they take control of, the service the troops came from still pays lots of the costs. The marines are pretty tenacious in these inter-service battles, and may yet win this one. The marines are willing to provide battalions to SOCOM, “as needed,” but with the understanding that these units go back to marine control once the mission is completed. Meanwhile, DET1 is still technically “being evaluated,” as the Department of Defense and the marines have yet to agree on the exact details of how these marine commandoes would work for SOCOM and the marines. This sort of prolonged negotiations are one reason SOCOM considers the marines “hard to work with.” The marines take that as a compliment
Who officiates over SOCOM?
At least, we were ten years ago. Hopefully things haven't changed that much since I was in.
"Who officiates over SOCOM?"
DoD
Watched it on DVD yesterday. Some parts were ridiculously funny. LOL. I wonder if North Korea's president (Kim Jong-il) watched it. I'd pay to see his reaction. LOL
No, they are still proud of the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. My son is in Recon and in the fall is moving to Force. I sent him the article, he'll be very interested in this. Just before he went through "Basic Recon Course" he was thinking of moving over to the SEALS, but after going through the course he saw no reason to do the same thing again. Now he'll get what he wants without leaving.
Odd co-inky-dink. I just rented it and watched it the other day myself.
Those Recon guys are all a little loopy. Tough bastards too. My congrats to your Son.
CJCS, Gen Peter Pace, USMC...
Maybe we are the same person and don't know it!!!!! Ooops, brain freeze. LOL.
Thanks goodness our military, even one part, doesn't serve at the will of a foreign govt.
Ping
SOCOM has no idea what awaits them...they are being infiltrated (G)
I flew back from someplace one time with a Marine who was heading home and when I told him that my son was Recon, he said they were scary.
Mixed forces, commands and services equal Desert One revisited aka stir, repeat....stir repeat......stir repeat......
I worked for SOCOM back when it was USREDCOM, didn't notice the lack of Marines...Guess I was young...
May God keep watch over your son and may He bless your family! Tell your son "Thank you" from a grateful US citizen!
I'm in a unit that's part of SOCOM. Don't take this the wrong way, but you're totally mistaken.
I can't agree with that.
Desert One failed because other services were brought in to participate because of inter-service politics. The USMC pilots weren't trained for that type of operation and had very limited use of night vision equipment at that point. That was the cause of the CH-53 vs. C-130 collision.
The first man on the ground was an AF combat controller who planted the remote-controlled IR strobes. That's an excellent example of inter-service cooperation.
SOCOM was created (partially) because of the disaster at Desert One. With SOCOM, different services can train and plan together and there's a good deal of commonality in equipment (especially communications equipment) and training, as well as a centralized command structure.
See my post 23. When marines serve today, they serve an Area Commander. Now some will serve SOCOM. Its essentially the same, just a different set of missions. The marines will do this well, just like everything else they do.
No worries. See post 23 and 25.
Regards,
We don't like losing Marines from our operational forces.
Everything we do is based on the MAGTAF(Marine Air Ground Task Force)concept, from our MEU's(Marine Expeditionary Unit) to our MEB's(Marine Expeditionary Brigade), and finally our MEF's(Marine Expeditionary Force).
This concept works because of our culture, "Every Marine a Rifleman". Every Marine knows regardless of his MOS his job is to ensure we kill bad guys. He knows it's his job to make sure the infantry Marine can do his job without wondering wether or not his air , artillery, or armor support will be there, or if his ammo, chow, and water will be resupplied.
Also every Marine knows the day may come regardless of MOS, that he may be called on to fill a slot in a Provisional Rifle Company or platoon.
The MAGTAF concept requires counless hours of integrated training among the different elements(Command Element, Ground Combat Element,Aviation Combat Element, and the Combat Service Support Element) That is why we are wary of farming out Marines to outside commands. Each Marine is an important piece in the MAGTAF puzzle.
Semper Fi
Just my opinion, ya'll. Just my opinion.....:o)
Well aware of what and when, good and bad at D1 but I'd like to see a totally new branch of the DOD that is Spec Ops. Lot's of improvements have been made but I am personally of the opinion that better capability is available/possible........May be a poor example but I think taking the best parts from a International harvester, a porsche and a bayliner to cobble up a do it all form of transportation is not any better than what SOCOM has done trying to piecemeal a special ops force.
I think the time has come to officially install Snake Eater Inc as a seperate service per se.
Just my SWAG / Opinion now....:o)
Stay safe !
HUA !.........Stay safe !
Good comments -- I think you stated matters very well.
Overall, SOCOM units are stretched a little thin these days. I think it's good news to have several thousand Marines added to their force.
And in the future, the War on Terrorism is likely to shift more and more to small SOCOM units -- now that Marines will play a bigger role in SOCOM they'll be able to participate more in future operations, and I know Marines will be happy about that.
ping!
It's an amazing story, and it's hard to argue with their tremendous success.
This shows that the problems from Desert One have been identified and fixed a long time ago.
And I apologize if my comment was too blunt. The topic is important to me, but that's no excuse.
Thanks for the book link.... I'll get it. Stay safe and keep giving em hell troop !
Naw never....anyone here who believes they know everything is a fool. I'm here to learn as I wish others were. Your in my old arena with current levels of knowledge. I yeild to your up to date knowledge of the subject matter.
Stay safe and never be afraid to correct me friend......
And for those who wonder if our Marines are the same men they were in years past...I took this from an email someone sent me-it made me think "Thank God for the United States Marines. If Marines, and Marine Recon in particular are scary, all the better for foes of our country.
This should make you proud to be an American!!
Those of you who might not know, the man on the left is the Commandant of the Marine Corps, and he is proud to know the man on the right.
Maybe you'd like to hear about a real American, somebody who honored the uniform he wears.
Meet Brian Chontosh.
Churchville-Chili Central School class of 1991. Proud graduate of the Rochester Institute of Technology. Husband and about-to-be father. First lieutenant (now Captain) in the United States Marine Corps. And a genuine hero.
The secretary of the Navy said so yesterday. At 29 Palms in California Brian Chontosh was presented with the Navy Cross, the second highest award for combat bravery the United States can bestow. That's a big deal. But you won't see it on the network news tonight, and all you read in Brian's hometown newspaper was two paragraphs of nothing. The odd fact about the American media in this war is that it's not covering the American military. The most plugged-in nation in the world is receiving virtually no true information about what its warriors are doing. Oh, sure, there's a body count. We know how many Americans have fallen. And we see those same casket pictures day in and day out. And we're almost on a first-name basis with the jerks who abused the Iraqi prisoners. And we know all about improvised explosive devices and how we lost Fallujah and what Arab public-opinion polls say about us and how the world hates us. We get a non-stop feed of gloom and doom.
But we don't hear about the heroes. The incredibly brave GIs who honorably do their duty. The ones our grandparents would have carried on their shoulders down Fifth Avenue. The ones we completely ignore. Like Brian Chontosh.
It was a year ago on the march into Baghdad. Brian Chontosh was a platoon leader rolling up Highway 1 in a humvee. When all hell broke loose. Ambush city. The young Marines were being cut to ribbons. Mortars, machine guns, rocket propelled grenades. And the kid out of Churchville was in charge. It was do or die and it was up to him.
So he moved to the side of his column, looking for a way to lead his men to safety. As he tried to poke a hole through the Iraqi line his humvee came under direct enemy machine gun fire. It was fish in a barrel and the Marines were the fish. And Brian Chontosh gave the order to attack. He told his driver to floor the humvee directly at the machine gun emplacement that was firing at them. And he had the guy on top with the .50 cal unload on them. Within moments there were Iraqis slumped across the machine gun and Chontosh was still advancing, ordering his driver now to take the humvee directly into the Iraqi trench that was attacking his Marines. Over into the battlement the humvee went and out the door Brian Chontosh bailed, carrying an M16 and a Beretta and 228 years of Marine Corps pride.
And he ran down the trench. With its mortars and riflemen, machineguns and grenadiers.
And he killed them all. He fought with the M16 until it was out of ammo. Then he fought with the Beretta until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up a dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up another dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. At one point he even fired a discarded Iraqi RPG into an enemy cluster, sending attackers flying with its grenade explosion.
When he was done Brian Chontosh had cleared 200 yards of entrenched Iraqis from his platoon's flank. He had killed more than 20 and wounded at least as many more. But that's probably not how he would tell it. He would probably merely say that his Marines were in trouble, and he got them out of trouble. Hoo-ah, and drive on.
"By his outstanding display of decisive leadership, unlimited courage in the face of heavy enemy fire, and utmost devotion to duty, 1st Lt. Chontosh reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service."
That's what the citation says. And that's what nobody will hear. That's what doesn't seem to be making the evening news. Accounts of American valor are dismissed by the press as propaganda, yet accounts of American difficulties are heralded as objectivity. It makes you wonder if the role of the media is to inform or to depress - to report or to deride. To tell the truth, or to feed us lies. But I guess it doesn't matter. We're going to turn out all right. As long as men like Brian Chontosh wear our uniform.
I don't know if you're really interested in the book -- a lot of it is pretty technical. If you are, I think you'd have to contact a SOCOM unit and ask if they'll give you one or loan you one (I'd try a Civil Affairs of PSYOP reserve unit), or go to a real good military library (like you might find on Ft. Bragg). It's not classified, but I don't think it's available for sale or download at this time.
The Marine pilots trained extensively for the mission. NVGs were in their infancy in April of 1980.
That was the cause of the CH-53 vs. C-130 collision.
The cause of the crash between the RH-53D; the Marines left their CH-53s which they had trained with, in the States, and the C-130 was due mostly to the fact that the tires on the nose gear of that particular helo were flat necessitating a "leap frog" taxi method so the helo could be refueled for the return trip to the Nimitz. Poor visibility was definitely the catalyst for the collision. The sand conditions at Desert One were very different from what the mission briefing said they would be; hardpack.
I disagree. Joint operations are the lynch pin of modern day Special Operations. SOCOM was established largely due to D1, as well as Grenada.
The Corps has been severely behind the power curve since. Nothing against their proud heritage. But the bottom line is that their high speed / low drag types were losing missions because they did NOT fall under SOCOM.
Every unit that falls under SOCOM has retained their proud lineage to date. I think this is a very good move for the Corps, and one that is long overdue.
Good info ....Stay safe !
Someone should tell this writer that "Marines" is a proper noun and should always be capitalized.
My cousin was a Marine in the early 80's. He came into contact with Recon guys several times, many were ex-Nam. He basically said they were 'out there' and you gave them a wide berth.
Thanks for that post. I sent it to everyone I know.
You are quite welcome. I hear this on occasion...they aren't made of the same stuff etc.ect.
I am ex-navy, and I have nothing but respect for the Marines I have seen and met. I know us Squids playfully (and sometimes not so playfully) call them Jarheads, but...I have never been able to determine if the name really bugs them or secretly pleases them that we just think it bugs them, when it really doesn't!
The email I copied this post from was a real lift to me, glad it made you feel good about our troops as well. Unfortunately, the Libs just will not ever get it. They think the military are all Neanderthals, particularly the US Marines. I think anything that brings out the best in Men is something liberals hate.
You have it exactly right (except of course from some of the inner rivalry that turns into politics at times) - But no doubt SOCOM has been a great success -
I agree.
He is a fine Marine, and a great soldier, and as Marines usually are, probably a good man, too. However, I don't know that I would put him in the ranks of the heroic solely on the basis of these actions. But I may define 'hero' differently than you.
So let me ask you: what defines a hero?
Well, I will agree that "Hero" is a very subjective description.
One definition I have read defines "hero" as: "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life."
If you value language, and the precison of language, then you must agree that a dictionary must serve as a standard. Otherwise, you are in danger of being an Orwellian Liberal, who believes that words can and should mean whatever you wish them to mean. As in, what the meaning of the word "is", is. If you get my drift.
So this Marine, by a definition of a well known dictionary would certainly be a hero.
I view my father as a hero. He was a man, who believed in God, Country, Family. He served 30 years in the USN, through three wars, and is buried in Arlington National Cemetery. He was a functional alcoholic for nearly his entire life.
But the man took care of us, taught us values, treated us well and was never, ever mean or disrespectful to me and my five brothers and sisters. I never heard him raise his voice to his wife, my mother.
Here is the eulogy I delivered at my father's funeral. You don't have to read it if you don't want to. But to me, this is what a hero is.
Eulogy for CDR Albert A. Morel, Jr., USN Retired
Life is full of the unexpected. I guess it’s one of the facets of life that make it so enjoyable. Most of the time, at least. So when I was asked to eulogize my father, I didn’t think twice. I had plenty to say, and I’m not someone who gets tongue tied when writing things down on paper. Or so I thought. After about three or four variations that were aborted when they were nearly done, I realized how difficult this was going to be. After all, I only have about ten minutes to do this. Anyone who has ever heard my brother Mike speak in front of a crowd knows I didn’t get that gene from the pool. So I will approach the subject the way my father would have approached it.
I have always viewed my father as a patriot. He loved his country, and not with the stupid nationalistic fervor that is the stereotype of the military man. He loved his country, and his place in it. He was a competent, thoughtful, measured, compassionate and fair naval officer. It showed in the way his contemporaries and subordinates viewed him, or so I am told. But I can concur with them, on the basis of my own personal experience. And my dad was always a naval officer, even when he was raking the leaves or fixing a faucet, it was clear who he was. Until he passed away last week, that was how he conducted his life. My friends, who knew virtually nothing about him, referred to him as “The Commander”. And they said it with evident respect.
I never remember being treated unfairly by him, ever. I can remember being so angry with him that I almost hated him, but I think every child has felt that way towards their parents at least once in their life. It kind of goes with the territory of being a kid. You just don’t understand why things are done a certain way, and your one-dimensional view of things is always the most important one.
As kids, my dad was not a big talker. When he did talk, it was rarely to make small talk, so like E.F. Hutton, when he talked you listened. And he ALWAYS spoke before he approached us or touched us. My mother used to make us wait until dad came home to administer his discipline. We would wait in our room, and we could hear his muted voice speaking with my mother as soon as he got home. Then, as he mounted the stairs, he would remove his belt (we could hear him remove it…) and he would double up the belt and make a loud snapping sound with it as he ascended the stairs. I recognize this now as psychological warfare. We repented our crimes before he ever had to even speak to us. When he entered the room, the tone of his voice would do all of the work. He rarely swore at us (his favorite insult whenever he was really angry with us, was to call us “Dumb Bunnies”. To this day we have to giggle a little amongst ourselves at this…”Dumb Bunnies…why on earth would he call us Dumb Bunnies, and what the heck is a Dumb Bunny anyway?” His voice always had a timbre to it that demanded our attention. He required that we look him in the face and say “Yes Sir” or “No Sir”. He expected us to respond to our Mother with “Yes Maam” and “No Maam”. Then he might flail at us with his belt while we squealed, but would never really connect with it. It was all show. We didn’t know that though. We really thought he was trying to hit us. The truth be told, we feared my mother much more as a disciplinarian. She had the Mediterranean emotion, and you could never be sure just how far you had pushed her. And we did push her on occasion. Looking back, it was all pretty predictable fare. In this light, I had a memorable encounter with my dad. It speaks volumes to me about my father, but at the time, was most puzzling because of its nature.
When we lived in Virginia, I was about 7 years old, and had walked a couple of miles to a candy store that was in a part of our town that was much poorer, and predominately black. When I came home, my dad asked me where I had been, and I said, “Oh, I just went over to Niggertown to get some candy…”
In a very swift motion, my dad grabbed me, one big adult hand around each skinny seven-year-old bicep, and drew me towards him so that my nose was probably less than a foot away from his nose. The term today for this was “In my face”. This was very close, and VERY unusual. He never dealt with us like this. I will never forget the look on his face, it wasn’t anger, and I didn’t know what it was. And the tone of his voice when he spoke was a tone I had never heard before. There was something else, not anger, but something. I didn’t know what it was at the time. My father looked at me, directly in the eyes, with his eyes the unwavering steely blue that they were, with this very foreign, strange and unusual look in them, a sharpness or brightness that was totally unrecognizable to me at that age. He gave me one shake, not a hard one, a gentle one, and said to me in that odd voice:
“Don’t ever think that you are better than someone else just because you were born with a different color skin.”
He released me, stood up to regard me for an instant then walked away without another word. I remember just standing there totally confused about this strange encounter. I had never seen him look at me that way or speak to me that way. I remember it as clearly as if it happened this morning.
Now that I am older, I think of that encounter and I know with certainty what the look he had in his eyes was. I know what the odd tone of his voice was.
It was passion. My dad had passion, and never, ever showed it to us as kids. But just that once, when I was a child, a door had cracked open (I am sure quite by accident) and I had seen the light that escaped. Before I could go and look inside, the door had snapped shut and sealed tight. I never got a chance to see into the room sealed by that door until many years later. By then, I was no longer surprised by what I saw. I had made the transition from viewing my father as a parent to viewing him as a person.
It is no surprise to anyone that I hero-worshipped my dad. I wanted to be him, my whole life. I never aspired after baseball players or presidents. I wanted to be my dad. I wanted to look like him. I would go over to the building across the street where my dad worked, and watch him walk down the halls, his feet sounding like the voice of authority itself. Then, I would try to imitate him so my footsteps would sound the same. I wanted to wear a uniform and serve my country like him. I wanted his values. I wanted to be a patriot like him. To this day, I wish I could emulate his life, and no other.
When I began to write this eulogy, I was going to eulogize my father in the context of the contrast between his generation and my generation. I grew to realize as I wrote, that our generations had more in common than I thought. In the furnaces of the depression and World War II where the character of their generation was tempered, men and women like my father and mother were produced. I was going to discuss “The Generation Gap”, and realized that the gap between the generations is one for my generation to bridge, not the other way around. My father’s generation has been called the “Greatest Generation”, with good reason. With the release of movies like “Saving Private Ryan” and books like “The Flag of Our Fathers”, many men and women of my generation are starting to understand why that description has been given to their parents generation. On first glance, one might think that the subject of “Saving Private Ryan” and “The Flag of Our Fathers” is war.
It isn’t.
Their subject is not war, but life. How to live it. How to do what must be done. Doing what is right. Duty. Responsibility. Accountability. When my father was 24, he was the Post Commander for the American Legion, organizing blood drives for veterans hospitals, collecting toys for underprivileged families. In his forties and fifties, he was involved in town politics because he wanted to help. In his sixties and seventies, he was intensely involved in Alcoholics Anonymous. Of all the things in his life that my father accomplished, if there was only one accomplishment he could claim and keep, I would tell him to keep his association with AA. Of all the things he did in his life, it is this that inspires the most pride in me. AA was his second family. Thank God. AA changed my father in ways that totally blew away the whole family. With the alcohol gone, we finally saw the kind of person he really was, and had been all of those years. We saw what a kind, generous, considerate person he was. We discovered he had a very egalitarian view of humanity. We saw his humor, which was rarely revealed to us. And most of all, the door opened to that room I had only caught a glimpse of as a child, and we were all invited to freely look inside, and we saw something my dad never advertised that he possessed.
Passion.
Passion for his country, Passion for his family, and passion for his fellow man. It had been there all the time and we had rarely recognized it, because above all, my father was a humble, private man. Like many men of his generation, he shunned the limelight and did things that needed to be done without blowing his own horn. I never ever heard him brag. Never. I never saw him complete a task, and look for praise. He just did things, and when they were complete, he went on the next thing without waiting for a pat on the back. That was my dad. A real man. He was, and is, my hero.
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