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Faithful Ancestors
Science News Magazine ^ | 6-11-2005 | Bruce Bower

Posted on 06/17/2005 8:33:25 AM PDT by blam

Faithful Ancestors

Researchers debate claims of monogamy for Lucy and her ancient kin

Bruce Bower

A weird kind of creature strode across the eastern African landscape from around 4 million to 3 million years ago. Known today by the scientific label Australopithecus afarensis, these ancient ancestors of people may have taken the battle of the sexes in a strange direction, for primates at any rate. True, no one can re-create with certainty the court and spark that led to sexual unions between early hominids. Nothing short of a time machine full of scientifically trained paparazzi could manage that trick.

All is not lost, though. Scientists are looking to fossil remains of A. afarensis to provide, as a prehistoric tabloid would, a revealing exposé of the hominid's intimate tendencies. A statistical analysis 2 years ago indicated that A. afarensis males exhibited only a moderate size advantage over females, rather than the larger difference seen in gorillas. According to Owen Lovejoy and Philip L. Reno, both of Kent (Ohio) State University, who directed that study, the size similarity implies that A. afarensis adults of both sexes favored long-term relationships, which arose as a matter of survival, not morality. Sleeping around just didn't cut it during hominids' start-up era.

That view has generated controversy, which comes as no surprise to the Kent State scientists. They themselves had unabashedly dismissed other researchers' earlier work that depicted A. afarensis males as the considerably larger sex, with the fiercest male fighters monopolizing the mating game.

However, some recent work provides evidence for A. afarensis sex differences that were considerably greater than those in modern people and that approach those in gorillas, according to J. Michael Plavcan of the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville and his colleagues. They report their analysis in the March Journal of Human Evolution. Large sex differences would indicate a mating style similar to that of modern gorillas.

Lovejoy and Reno, however, stand by their earlier conclusions. "It's entirely possible that much of our sexual physiology and anatomy had already evolved in australopithecines," Lovejoy says. "That set the stage for massive brain growth in our later fossil ancestors."

Lucy's love life

Anthropologists discovered evidence of A. afarensis, including the partial skeleton dubbed Lucy, in eastern Africa more than 30 years ago. The bones seemed to fall into two size categories. At that time, researchers butted heads over whether these bones represented two species of human ancestors that lived at the same time or one species that included males with big, bulky bodies relative to those of females.

After noting similar shapes of the larger and smaller remains, proponents of the one-species view won out. Using measurements of people's bones in relation to body weight as a reference, investigators then estimated that A. afarensis males weighed an average of 98 pounds, while their female counterparts tipped the scales at only 65 pounds. That's a much greater sex disparity in weight than is found in people today but approaches that measured among gorillas and orangutans.

Many researchers concluded that in Lucy's species, as among gorillas, the toughest males dominated the mating scene. Gorilla males tend to fight among themselves, baring daggerlike canine teeth. Winners do the lion's share of mating with available females, whom the dominant males guard from skulking suitors.

Demonstrating another lifestyle, chimps exhibit virtually no size differences between sexes, but males retain large, fanglike canines, Lovejoy notes. A female typically mates numerous times with several partners during periods of sexual receptivity, which she advertises via temporarily swollen breasts and hindquarters.

According to Lovejoy, though, behaviors of gorillas or chimps can't serve as a model for Lucy and her comrades. In 1981, he proposed that they were descendants of a new kind of primate built for what he calls social monogamy. A. afarensis males blended an upright stance and unusually small, nonthreatening canine teeth. And the female anatomy masked signs of ovulation through features such as permanently enlarged breasts, he says.

Given this species' million-year run of success, Lovejoy theorizes, its males probably obtained food consistently by forming working alliances, mainly among close relatives. Each successful provider thus upped his chances of being accepted as a female's sole mate, the best way to ensure that he would become a dad. From the female perspective, a steady mate would be a good bet not only to bring home food but also to assist in child care.

However, modest size differences between the sexes typically characterize mammals with a penchant for soul mates, rather than the gorillalike pattern that had been proposed.

Simulating sexes

Ten years after Lovejoy set forth the idea of social monogamy among australopithecines, evidence continued to pile up supporting a substantial size difference between males and females. In 1991, Henry M. McHenry of the University of California, Davis published estimates of large weight disparities.

Lovejoy countered that those calculations used as a reference point the sex differences observed in modern people, which he says probably don't correspond to those of 3-million-year-old hominids. He also pointed out that McHenry's analyses rested on a small number of fossils that covered a time span of at least 500,000 years and were unearthed at sites separated by nearly 500 miles. The specimens could have come from populations showing a variety of unique male-female anatomical contrasts.

Finally, cursed with a scarcity of pelvic remains that could clearly distinguish wider-hipped females from slimmer-hipped males, McHenry simply assumed that big bones came from males and small bones came from females, Lovejoy says.

In 2003, Lovejoy and his coworkers employed a novel statistical method to simulate skeletal-size differences between ancient sexes without trying to gauge their weights. The enterprise hinged on using measurements of Lucy's partial skeleton to estimate sizes of crucial but missing bones for a set of A. afarensis individuals known as the First Family. These fossils, which represent as many as 22 or as few as 5 individuals, were unearthed near the spot where Lucy was found and, like her, date to 3.2 million years ago.

The researchers first measured the width of Lucy's well-preserved femur head, the ball of the upper-leg bone that fits into the hip joint. They then determined the size of various other parts of Lucy's arm and leg bones relative to femur-head width. Lovejoy focused on femur-head size because it's considered a reliable indicator of overall body size.

Next, the scientists measured the First Family arm and leg fossils that corresponded to those for Lucy. Armed with Lucy's skeletal dimensions, the team calculated femur-head sizes. They tagged individuals with big femur heads as male and those with small femur heads as female. In further studies the researchers found that femur-head sizes accurately predict sex and overall body size in people, chimps, and gorillas.

Whether the First Family included two dozen or only a half-dozen members, males exhibited a moderate size advantage over females, close to that observed in people, Lovejoy's team found.

Moderate, humanlike size differences between A. afarensis males and females accompanied both an evolutionary shriveling of males' canine teeth and a shift of sexual physiology away from chimplike ancestors and toward humans, Lovejoy asserts. For instance, he suspects that that's when ovulation became concealed and males evolved physical accommodations to mate regularly rather than for short, intense periods during ovulation. The new-style males produce modest amounts of sperm continuously rather than larger amounts timed to ovulation, as do gorillas.

Australopithecines, as highly mobile creatures locked into a socially complex mating game, lit a fuse of brain expansion that exploded in ensuing Homo species, Lovejoy proposes. Ironically, large brains unleashed cultural evolution, resulting in a plethora of human sexual and mating practices that go far beyond anything Lucy could have imagined, he says.

Weighting game

The Kent State scientists' portrayal of A. afarensis sexes has received some positive reviews. Robert G. Tague, an anthropologist at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge calls Lovejoy's method of estimating skeletal-size differences "a promising one" and suspects that Lucy's kind indeed preferred social monogamy.

Lovejoy's findings indicate that early hominids "may have been more humanlike [than apelike] in their basic social behavior," comments Clark S. Larsen, an anthropologist at Ohio State University in Columbus.

But other researchers contend that the accumulated evidence supports striking size differences between A. afarensis sexes. These scientists reject Lovejoy's unconventional approach. To begin with, says Plavcan, the First Family consists mainly of large-bodied males and thus fosters an underestimate of size differences.

Plavcan and his colleagues determined the relationship between various skeletal measures and body mass for 658 people from eight populations in different parts of the world. With those correlations, the team made new calculations of femur-head size and body mass for seven A. afarensis specimens not in the First Family and assigned sex on the basis of size.

This work reveals sex differences considerably greater than those in people and approaching those in gorillas, according to Plavcan's team.

Particularly fierce males in Lucy's species probably monopolized mating, although how they did so without sharp canines remains unclear, Plavcan says.

Mating-minded A. afarensis males, McHenry theorizes, literally took up arms. An upright posture freed their hands for punching, throwing rocks, and other mayhem. The best fighters thus defended their exclusive sexual access to adult females.

It's risky to judge a hominid's body weight by the size of its bones because nutrition and other factors influence the amount of muscle and fat, says Christopher Ruff of Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore. He discounts Lovejoy's conclusions, arguing that an individual's skeletal size often bears little relationship to body weight.

UC-Davis' McHenry is sticking with his earlier calculation that A. afarensis males were about 50 percent heavier than females. Humanlike size proportions for the sexes evolved much later, around 1.7 million years ago in Homo erectus, McHenry argues. Men today are about 15 percent heavier than women.

Too much sex

Other scientists express a mix of chagrin and disdain at the amount of energy that researchers have expended on trying to separate fossil boys from girls. Investigators need to drop their obsession with the sex of fossils and examine how individual differences in skeletal anatomy arise, contends Maciej Henneberg of the University of Adelaide in Australia. For body weight and many skull measurements, including braincase size and facial width, individuals within each sex usually differ far more from each other than average members of opposite sexes do, he argues.

Erik Trinkaus of Washington University in St. Louis also derides efforts to identify the sex of ancient bones. Sex assessments always begin with the unjustified assumption that bigger bones must belong to males and smaller ones to females, he says. And the numbers of individual specimens of A. afarensis and other ancient hominid species are too few to generate reliable estimates of male and female size ranges, in his opinion.

Louisiana State's Tague doesn't go that far, but he notes that even the pelvis, the body part regarded as the gold standard for telling apart primate sexes, is surprisingly tough to read. His work shows no consistent pattern of the pelvis being larger in females than in males.

The shape of Lucy's partially preserved pelvis leaves her sexual identity unclear, Tague notes. Her diminutive size led Tague and Lovejoy in a 1998 paper to peg Lucy as female.

Reports on new fossil finds of A. afarensis and even older hominid species are expected soon. Lovejoy plans to factor skeletal data from these discoveries into a larger examination of ancient sex differences.

From Lucy's era to our time, the battle of the sexes appears destined to rage on.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ancestors; anthropology; archaeology; crevolist; faithful; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; lucy; multiregionalism
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1 posted on 06/17/2005 8:33:25 AM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv

GGG Ping.


2 posted on 06/17/2005 8:34:07 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam; joeclarke; mlc9852

I read 'Lucy' back in the early 80s and loved it. Never read a book from a creationist that could match even the Bookcover Summary of Lucy's investigative brillance. In fact I never read a creationist book that proposed 'any' ideas at all except the other side is wrong.

If you want to read nonsense. Go to this post:


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1423308/posts


3 posted on 06/17/2005 8:45:59 AM PDT by marylandrepub1 (God does not insist that we be stupid)
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To: blam
For body weight and many skull measurements, including braincase size and facial width, individuals within each sex usually differ far more from each other than average members of opposite sexes do, he argues.

That's a sign of someone that has not absorbed any scientific education received.

Variation within groups is certainly interesting, but variation among groups is extremely significant, especially when the groups have widely different medians. Think of Pygmies and Watusi: this guy would have you believe that the individual variations among all Pygmies or all Watusi are more important than any group differences -- which is patently a crock.

If I didn't see people who sat through four years of college-as-indoctrination make such innumerate statements daily, I'd never believe anyone with a four year degree could make such a retarded comment. It's a complete straw man, and this guy i as much a scientist as Jeffrey Dahmer is a surgeon.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

4 posted on 06/17/2005 9:22:22 AM PDT by Criminal Number 18F (If timidity made you safe, Bambi would be king of the jungle.)
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To: blam

That would be a fateful trip, jumping into a time machine and setting the dial to a time which never existed.

And I swear, my ancestors were not monkeys. If there was a planet 3 million years ago, and it had monkeys on it, they looked exactly like monkeys do today.


5 posted on 06/17/2005 10:06:50 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: marylandrepub1
" In fact I never read a creationist book that proposed 'any' ideas at all except the other side is wrong."

What malarky. The creationist argument has much more science on it's side than does the evolutionist argument, which has none, other than theory and wild guesses. try again.

6 posted on 06/17/2005 10:11:40 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: marylandrepub1
I guess you haven't heard, as apparently lots of people haven't, that lucy was discounted in the 1990s as a chimpanzee species. As for the rest of this article there hasn't been enough fosil fragments of Afarensis recovered to make any judgements on size and variations between the sexes, there have been, however, many people who claim they are simply chimpanzees, and with good evidence to support them.

It seems strange, doesn' it, if one just thinks about it, that although Louie Leaky and others can find so called ancestors to man all over african, apparently at will, that not one specie of Chimpanzee ancestors have been found. Think about that for a while.

If you haven't read any books by creationists that make sense to you perhaps you haven't read the right books or are simply letting your hidebound mind set get in the way.

7 posted on 06/17/2005 10:14:25 AM PDT by calex59
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; ...
Thanks Blam.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

8 posted on 06/17/2005 10:15:30 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (FR profiled updated Tuesday, May 10, 2005. Fewer graphics, faster loading.)
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To: Nathan Zachary

A time which never existed? Um, excuse me, but isn't there light visible from objects a LOT more than 3 million light years away? Wouldn't this indicate to a reasonable person that the universe is at least as old as the time it would take for the light from the most distant visible objects in the universe to reach us?


9 posted on 06/17/2005 10:48:57 AM PDT by Mylo
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To: Nathan Zachary; calex59

No ideas, none. The last two ideas from creationists were from the so called Book of Moses. There are 2 Creation stories and 2 Noah's Ark stories in Genesis . Each of the stories contradict the other (in most details) because they were written by different people at different times (JE+P). One was written in the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the other in the southern kingdom of Judah, both as competing stories, after the Kingdom split. Both must have had the same verbal folklore origins. You can't possibly claim that these stories explain anything about nature.

Lucy was the upright walking human relative with the chimps brain. Even if Don Johanson made mistakes at least he had an idea and explained how he came to his conclusions. Creationists never pose any ideas so they assume they win because they have nothing to defend(sound familiar?)


10 posted on 06/17/2005 10:49:03 AM PDT by marylandrepub1 (God does not insist that we be stupid)
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To: Mylo

"but isn't there light visible from objects a LOT more than 3 million light years away? "


You forget. God created light in mid transit so we would 'think' the universe is older than it 'really' is. This is typical creationist brillance.


11 posted on 06/17/2005 10:52:03 AM PDT by marylandrepub1 (God does not insist that we be stupid)
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To: marylandrepub1
If God created a universe 6,000 or so years ago that, to all intents and purposes, appearers to be billions of years old; then for the purpose of observing and predicting the universe (using the scientific method) there is absolutely no use is "knowing" that the universe is only 6,000 years old.

In other words, Creationism is useless.
12 posted on 06/17/2005 11:15:38 AM PDT by Mylo
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To: Mylo

"In other words, Creationism is useless."

Yes-Exactly!!! And it tells Christians that they have shut down their brains to be believers. The creationists allow Liberals to paint Christians as uneducated illogical red-necks.


13 posted on 06/17/2005 11:26:42 AM PDT by marylandrepub1 (God does not insist that we be stupid)
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To: Nathan Zachary
"More Science"? We got more o' dat science on our side!

Try facts, evidence, experiments, falsifiable and accepted theories that help to observe and predict the universe.

Science is a process, not a result. Saying "More Science" is like a Communist insisting that they have "more Economics" on their side. And he may well be right in that there is more WRITTEN on his side, but unfortunately for the millions who have suffered under that sick system, the facts, evidents, and experiments all indicate that Capitalism is a much better system.

You don't even have that going for you. There are hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific journals that discuss evolution, molecular evolution, geology, paleontology, and astronomy; and they all contradict the Creationist view of a young Universe and an Earth inhabited by unchanging species.
14 posted on 06/17/2005 11:28:39 AM PDT by Mylo
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To: marylandrepub1
Creationist also try to set up a false dichotomy of anti-religious scientists versus all Christianity. This allows them to assert that they are defending Christianity from the atheists.

Most American scientists are Christians, and they see no conflict between the evolutionary theory of natural selection and their belief in the God of the Bible. Many Christians worldwide, including the Pope, also see no conflict between the evolutionary theory of natural selection (which the Pope said the evidence for was overwhelming)and belief in the God of the Bible.

Science is not the enemy of truth, it is a tool used to ascertain that which is predictable and replicable; and therefore true.
15 posted on 06/17/2005 11:33:23 AM PDT by Mylo
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To: Mylo

"Um, excuse me, but isn't there light visible from objects a LOT more than 3 million light years away? "


Let me try the old Creationist Game:

Well the evolutionists came up with the distance to the stars using circular reasoning, assuming an old universe. But in fact if we go back to when the creator said, 'Let there be light' and multiply a short time times the speed of light we can prove the stars are a few feet way. The distant start theory is just another plot by atheists. It is now common fact (except for those evolutionists) that the stars are orbiting the earth.

Now let's re-write the science books


16 posted on 06/17/2005 11:39:00 AM PDT by marylandrepub1 (God does not insist that we be stupid)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
I've heard college graduates, indoctrinated into believing that all of the differences between men and women are cultural, deny that male hormones influence muscle mass, that the size and strength differences between the sexes are cultural, etc. There's just nothing like twisting the data to fit your theory. Let's just hope the socialists don't rediscover Lemarkian evolution.

You might find this article, written by a liberal, interesting.

17 posted on 06/17/2005 11:57:13 AM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Nathan Zachary
Ignore the scientists; they will only taunt and torment you with facts. I'm with you - I've believe in a young earth as well, as recounted in this Norse tale:


18 posted on 06/17/2005 12:12:05 PM PDT by lemura
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To: blam
The article is interesting to me in that it brings up, without actually saying it, the relation between sexual dimorphism (males being larger than females) and polygynous species(one male with more than one female). The correlation is almost absolute, the larger the male is in relation to the female the more females per reproducing male. Among sea lions there is no overlap in sizes, the male is HUGE, and has about a dozen females that his large bulk defends from other males. Among humans there is significant overlap in our sizes, but males are slightly larger; indicating that we are a slightly polygynous species (highly successful human males throughout history have had more than one female).

It is also interesting in that they mention human females cryptic ovulation (i.e. neither you nor they know precisely when they are ovulating and ready to be impregnated)and relate it to our sexual behavior. Only two species I have ever heard of have cryptic ovulation, the bonobo chimp and humans; and both species engage in recreational sex (i.e. WAY more often than needed for reproduction). Males of most species are simply not interested in sex unless there is a possibility for reproduction. A male that will refuse sex with a receptive female he has already inseminated will somehow find the energy to inseminate a new female (This is called the Coolidge effect, due to a funny story involving President Coolidge and his wife at a government chicken farm). Because women hide their time of ovulation, unlike most female mammals that let the entire neighborhood know, men are interested in sex at any time because any time MIGHT be an opportunity for reproduction; one simply never knows. This allows frequent (although not as frequent as most men would prefer) recreational sex to strengthen the pair bond, and ensures that males will stick close by their mates instead of only dropping in when they were receptive to reproduction.
19 posted on 06/17/2005 12:33:41 PM PDT by Mylo
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To: marylandrepub1
There's really little point in attempting conversation with the super-naturalists.
To do so only encourages them in their thread hijackings.

Ignore them completely and they'll move on to targets who'll give them the attention they crave.

20 posted on 06/17/2005 12:35:31 PM PDT by ASA Vet (Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know.)
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To: Nathan Zachary
If there was a planet 3 million years ago, and it had monkeys on it, they looked exactly like monkeys do today.

We did not descend from monkeys or apes. The deal is that if we evolved, so did they, so we would be looking at evolved species for both, not at the evolved species and the non-evolved species.

21 posted on 06/17/2005 12:45:24 PM PDT by RightWhale (Some may think I am a methodist)
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To: ASA Vet

They jumped ship a few hours ago, just like on that creationist thread yesterday. Asking them to explain what the Bible says usually does it. I don't think they have any ideas at all.


22 posted on 06/17/2005 12:46:28 PM PDT by marylandrepub1 (God does not insist that we be stupid)
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To: Mylo

Thanks. That's exactly my understanding of things.


23 posted on 06/17/2005 12:59:46 PM PDT by blam
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To: RightWhale

You ARE looking at evolved species for both. A monkey, subject to evolutionary pressure and natural selection for the same amount of time, is just as "evolved" as a man. Evolution does not mean or imply progress.

Maybe if you understood evolution you would be able to post an opinion about it that didn't make you look quite so clueless.


24 posted on 06/17/2005 1:08:43 PM PDT by Mylo
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To: PatrickHenry

This is fascinating. Of course, I figure the luddites will do their hootin' and hollerin' from the sidelines, but the article's a great read.


25 posted on 06/17/2005 1:12:06 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: Nathan Zachary
And I swear, my ancestors were not monkeys. If there was a planet 3 million years ago, and it had monkeys on it, they looked exactly like monkeys do today.

The evidence doesn't support your contention, but hey, if it makes you feel good to believe this, more power to you.

26 posted on 06/17/2005 1:17:23 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: Nathan Zachary
What malarky. The creationist argument has much more science on it's side than does the evolutionist argument, which has none, other than theory and wild guesses. try again.

Do you have any POSITIVE evidence for creationism? Note, sniping against evolution is NOT POSITIVE evidence for creationism, as the latter does not win by default.

Until you come up with that POSITIVE evidence, you really don't have a leg to stand on here.

27 posted on 06/17/2005 1:19:00 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: calex59
I guess you haven't heard, as apparently lots of people haven't, that lucy was discounted in the 1990s as a chimpanzee species.

Horse hockey. This is an ancient creationist canard debunked countless times on these very threads. Of course, being a creationist means never retaining information from day to day.

28 posted on 06/17/2005 1:20:14 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: Mylo
The Coolidge Effect:

President Calvin Coolidge and his wife were touring a government chicken farm (not sure which of the enumerated powers in Article I section 8 covers the federal gov raising chickens, but there it is) and used their typical 'divide and conquer' strategy.

The farmer was quite embarrassed when a rooster made a loud production of mating with a hen. The first lady, nonplussed, asked him "How many times a day, would you say, does that rooster have his way with a hen?"

"About 20 times a day" the farmer replied.

"Be sure to point that out to the President" she told him.

So when President Coolidge came by the farmer said "See that Rooster Mr President? The first lady wanted me to tell you that rooster has his way with a hen about 20 times a day."

"Every time with the same hen?" Asked Cal.

"No, every time with a different hen." answered the farmer.

"Tell THAT to the First Lady." Cal quipped.

When Scientists studies the phenomenon, they dubbed it "the Coolidge Effect".
29 posted on 06/17/2005 1:23:50 PM PDT by Mylo
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To: Junior
The validity of a Scientific theory cannot be assessed by the psychological comfort one derives from it.
30 posted on 06/17/2005 1:25:59 PM PDT by Mylo
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To: Junior
The validity of a Scientific theory cannot be assessed by the psychological comfort one derives from it.
31 posted on 06/17/2005 1:26:34 PM PDT by Mylo
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To: Mylo

I understand, but they're like little children in this regard, and it often helps to humor them a bit.


32 posted on 06/17/2005 1:26:58 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: Junior
EvolutionPing
A pro-evolution science list with over 280 names.
See the list's description at my freeper homepage.
Then FReepmail to be added or dropped.

33 posted on 06/17/2005 1:27:00 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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To: PatrickHenry

Thanks, but appears you only pinged me.


34 posted on 06/17/2005 1:30:15 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: VadeRetro; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; Shryke; RightWhale; ...

Remedial ping.


35 posted on 06/17/2005 1:35:59 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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To: Nathan Zachary; marylandrepub1
You don't get it. Lucy is a vivid and exciting book because the authors are excited by the subject.
Johanson and Eday would have written the exact same book if Creationism and Creationists didn't exist

If Evolutionists didn't exist, Creationists wouldn't write one darn thing because they are nowt more than parasites.

36 posted on 06/17/2005 2:00:10 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Creationsts are faithful to their god, the Lord of Lies)
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To: Mylo
Thanks for repeating what I said. Maybe if you understood evolution you would be able to post an opinion about it that didn't make you look quite so clueless.

Barely paraphrastic.

37 posted on 06/17/2005 2:14:36 PM PDT by RightWhale (Some may think I am a methodist)
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To: RightWhale
Say what?

I didn't repeat what you said because claptrap about species being "more" or "less" evolved is only spoken of by people with barely a nascent understanding of what evolution entails, assume that humans are the pinnacle of evolution and evolution entails progress (it doesn't), or are racist scum who think that they are somehow "more evolved" than other humans despite the fact that there is very little genetic variation among humans, and none of the variation makes anybody "better" or "more evolved".
38 posted on 06/17/2005 2:49:53 PM PDT by Mylo
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To: Mylo

You might be reading something into a post of mine that isn't there. None of that reflects my view on anything. Perhaps you are responding to another poster, but I have no interest in your analysis.


39 posted on 06/17/2005 2:58:59 PM PDT by RightWhale (Some may think I am a methodist)
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To: Mylo; RightWhale
It would appear that RW's understanding of evolution requires species to die out once they have descendants. Efficiently filling an ecological niche has nothing to do with it. Competition, or the lack thereof, for resources has nothing to do with it.

This is apparently also the theory of evolution that would require fish to give birth to rabbits and individual dinosaurs to suddenly sprout wings for birds to have appeared.

No wonder no one believes it.

40 posted on 06/17/2005 3:03:38 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs

I am not interested in arguing strawmen.


41 posted on 06/17/2005 3:11:17 PM PDT by RightWhale (Some may think I am a methodist)
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To: RightWhale

Well what you said was...

"We did not descend from monkeys or apes. The deal is that if we evolved, so did they, so we would be looking at evolved species for both, not at the evolved species and the non-evolved species"

And we DID evolved from Apes (not monkeys). No "if"; we did indeed evolve, and so did they. We ARE looking at evolved species for both monkeys and humans. There is no such thing as a "non-evolved species".


42 posted on 06/17/2005 3:11:31 PM PDT by Mylo
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To: Mylo

You are repeating my observation.


43 posted on 06/17/2005 3:14:34 PM PDT by RightWhale (Some may think I am a methodist)
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To: RightWhale
Your previous post on the subject indicates otherwise:

We did not descend from monkeys or apes. The deal is that if we evolved, so did they, so we would be looking at evolved species for both, not at the evolved species and the non-evolved species.

There is no serious theory of evolution that states what you said in your post 21 to this thread. It essentially the argument that once you're born, your parents die.

I've compared it to other ridiculous interpretations of evolution posted on other threads by other FReepers for the purpose of illustrating common misperceptions of the theory. However, I'll happily withdraw the fish and dinosaur examples as applying to you. I'm glad to discover you consider them straw men. They are exactly that.

44 posted on 06/17/2005 3:19:24 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs

Thanks. I am, however, interested in the evolution of thinking on the nature of the State. The biological analogy is one of the possible ones, but ultimately not the most fruitful.


45 posted on 06/17/2005 3:22:57 PM PDT by RightWhale (Some may think I am a methodist)
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To: RightWhale

Obviously I am repeating what you said, and taking issue with it (isn't this usually how these things go?)

The statement that "We did not descend from monkeys or apes." is not an observation, as there is nothing factual in that statement to observe, it is an article of faith and nothing more.

The statement "An analysis of all genetic, physiological, and paleontological data indicates that humans evolved with apes from a common ancestor" is an observation. See the difference?


46 posted on 06/17/2005 3:24:02 PM PDT by Mylo
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To: Nathan Zachary
"What malarky. The creationist argument has much more science on it's side than does the evolutionist argument, which has none, other than theory and wild guesses. try again" Wow! do you realise how ignorant you sound? What science is that.....scientology? or perhaps a shaman waving a dead chicken and letting its guts slide into the water for soothe saying purposes? or how about the science of the supersticious, desert wandering, bronze age sandle wearers who wrote the 'science book' you base your 'theories' on.
47 posted on 06/17/2005 3:25:31 PM PDT by Vaquero (Lets all play the 'Christian of European Ancestry' brand of Jihad.....its called 'THE CRUSADES')
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To: RightWhale

What does that have to do with your previous post, my replies, Mylo's replies, or the subject of this thread?


48 posted on 06/17/2005 3:28:23 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Mylo

Should have pinged you in my post 48. Sorry.


49 posted on 06/17/2005 3:29:13 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Mylo

I understand what you are saying, but it is not an issue that concerns me.


50 posted on 06/17/2005 3:29:52 PM PDT by RightWhale (Some may think I am a methodist)
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