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IBM to hire 14,000 in India
Sify ^ | 24 June , 2005,

Posted on 06/24/2005 9:54:36 AM PDT by phoenix_004

US tech giant IBM plans to increase its payroll in India this year by 14,000 workers, even as it cuts 13,000 jobs in Europe and the United States, a labor group said on Friday.

The shift, first reported by The New York Times, highlights the transfer of some skilled jobs to low-wage countries such as India by a number of companies including IBM, the world's largest information technology company.

The moves in India were indicated in what was claimed to be an internal company document posted on the website of the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, of Washtech, which seeks to unionize high-tech workers.

It indicated IBM's Indian workforce would rise to 38,196 in 2005 from 24,150 in 2004.

IBM declined to comment on the document or specific workforce levels. But company spokesman Edward Barbini said IBM is increasing its staff in high-growth countries such as India to meet increasing demands.

"IBM India has seen double-digit growth in the last five years," Barbini told AFP. "In 2004, IBM India recorded revenue growth of 45 percent. We ended December 31 with roughly 23,000 employees in India making IBM India's sixth largest IT employer."

Barbini offered no specifics on increases in Indian hiring, but noted that the company has announced it would hire 1,000 programmers for a new software center in Hyderabad.

"India, China and Brazil are high-growth markets for IBM and we are hiring to support our local growth in those markets," he said. "There is a rapidly growing demand for business transformation services."

Washtech said the moves were hurting workers in the US and elsewhere.

"IBM is really pushing this offshore outsourcing to relentlessly cut costs and to export skilled jobs abroad," Marcus Courtney, president of Washtech, told the Times.

"The winners are the richest corporations in the world, and American workers lose."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: boohoohoo; ibm; jobs; outsourcing; theytookourjahbs; turncoats; wahwahwah
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1 posted on 06/24/2005 9:54:36 AM PDT by phoenix_004
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To: phoenix_004
Outsourcing and off-shoring are good for the world. Nothing to see here. Move on.
2 posted on 06/24/2005 10:09:37 AM PDT by austinite
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To: phoenix_004

3 posted on 06/24/2005 10:11:00 AM PDT by Fawn
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To: phoenix_004

""IBM India has seen double-digit growth in the last five years," Barbini told AFP. "In 2004, IBM India recorded revenue growth of 45 percent. We ended December 31 with roughly 23,000 employees in India making IBM India's sixth largest IT employer.""

Sam Palmisano is destroying IBM. They just canned thousands of employees that were some of the best at what they do. Our institutional memory has been outsourced. I call our internal support line and get someone that I can't understand and it takes hours to do what could have been done in minutes. The management have a dream and they're sticking to it whether it works or not.


4 posted on 06/24/2005 10:16:33 AM PDT by dljordan
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To: Fawn

....but but but it will make the computers and services cheaper for us americans so we will be able to buy more. It will keep more money in our pockets.

(I wanted to add this before some free traitor does)


5 posted on 06/24/2005 10:18:55 AM PDT by superiorslots (Free Traitors are communist China's modern day "Useful Idiots")
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To: dljordan

I guess the "international" in their name really means international.


6 posted on 06/24/2005 10:19:47 AM PDT by superiorslots (Free Traitors are communist China's modern day "Useful Idiots")
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To: austinite

what about me and tons like me in the IT world that were laid off due to this-our user told the company we won't be understood and maintenance is easier onsite but no-go.


7 posted on 06/24/2005 10:19:57 AM PDT by manny613 (Trying my best)
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To: phoenix_004

And the hits just keep coming.


8 posted on 06/24/2005 10:19:57 AM PDT by dfwgator (Longhorns are Gator Bait!!!)
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To: phoenix_004

In other news, McDonald's, Home Depot, and 7-11 Stores announced they will be hiring more employess in the foreseeable future, but they will all be minimum wage, without annual pay increases.


9 posted on 06/24/2005 10:29:42 AM PDT by theDentist (The Dems have put all their eggs in one basket-case: Howard "Belltower" Dean.)
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To: phoenix_004

Perhaps its time to unload IBM stock.


10 posted on 06/24/2005 10:34:35 AM PDT by marvlus
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To: dljordan
Sam Palmisano is destroying IBM. They just canned thousands of employees that were some of the best at what they do. Our institutional memory has been outsourced

Your post is the correct take on this. What companies do in global competition to succeed should remain up to the company, but (like when this was tried by my company) some moves will backfire and limit the company's growth for years to come. I expect this is still a small percentage of IBM's total work force, but moving jobs off shore creates a very large negative emotion here at home. I suspect this decision will not be looked at with hindsight as a good move.

11 posted on 06/24/2005 10:35:47 AM PDT by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: phoenix_004

a 1:1 loss of US jobs for every person they hire in India.


12 posted on 06/24/2005 10:36:11 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: marvlus

well what IBM is doing is-they are the largest consultant company so they are in turn outsourcing the projects that were sent to them already.
Were I live there are alot of "former" IBM workers.


13 posted on 06/24/2005 10:38:11 AM PDT by manny613 (Trying my best)
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To: phoenix_004

The people at IBM making these decisions are not stupid. If they can have the same work done at a fraction of the cost than in the US, why shouldn't they do it? The free-market economy doesn't know "patrotism" or any other sentamentalism.


14 posted on 06/24/2005 10:41:23 AM PDT by Truthsayer20
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To: Truthsayer20

You're right. It is a free-market economy. I guess it remains to be seen if IBM's move will be for the better or for the worse in the long run.


15 posted on 06/24/2005 10:45:24 AM PDT by marvlus
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To: phoenix_004

Don't buy IBM, either. And the dollar must fall in relation to other currencies. We (many) have much better systems (different kinds, and not Linux) at much less cost waiting for you. ...and all the software you can use.

And I have no pecuniary interest in the market at this time.


16 posted on 06/24/2005 10:48:00 AM PDT by familyop ("Let us try" sounds better, don't you think? "Essayons" is so...Latin.)
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To: phoenix_004
At least in the software business, the challenges are managerial, not technical. Meaning that the employees are very much more capable than the level at which most companies manage.

Companies that outsource think they are getting the same work for less pay. That isn't really true, but it isn't the real problem they face anyway. The truth is, very few companies produce quality software, and those that can do so in spite of managerial incompetence.

By offshoring, they complicate the part of the process they already suck at: Managing.

I work for a company that outsources, and I see it all the time. In-house workers manage to duck management's best efforts to stymie them and get something done. Outsourced projects come back, time after time, with huge performance and quality issues. Management then wants in-house people to tidy it up for release.

They always wind up spending a lot more to get the product ready to market, but pointing that out is forbidden. I have even caught management in outright lies about the resources they devoted to projects. They were lying because to disparage outsourcing is a career-ender for a manager.

The real winners in this will be the entrepreneurs in the states who will eat the lunch of the large corporations caught in the outsourcing tar pit.

17 posted on 06/24/2005 10:50:53 AM PDT by hopespringseternal (</i>)
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To: Truthsayer20

Yeah, why get sentimental about some CEO, CFO and other assorted accomplices getting their golden parachutes worth millions for their condos in the Bahamas while Mr. and Mrs. Smith try to buy that new $399 color t.v. on Mr. Smith's new monthly income as a burger flipper at McDonald's?

I'm sure those patriotic CEO's take the time (between mai tais) to hail all the little (now unemployed) people who put them in those nice condos, don't you think?


18 posted on 06/24/2005 10:52:27 AM PDT by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: Truthsayer20
If they can have the same work done at a fraction of the cost than in the US, why shouldn't they do it?

I already posted an answer, but in a nutshell: The challenge to writing software, and many other tasks, is not in writing it but in managing it. Outsourcing will only complicate a task that most of these companies are only marginally able to do.

Every outsourcing project I have first-hand knowledge of has been a failure relative to comparable in-house development, but saying so is such a career ender that I have even caught managers assigning in-house people to projects on the sly to keep it from going under.

19 posted on 06/24/2005 10:58:03 AM PDT by hopespringseternal (</i>)
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To: All
My, how the world has changed ...

IBM/India, a joint venture, years ago manufactured the last of the model IBM 1401s - the "G" model. The government of India then mandated that all joint ventures have at least 51% Indian ownership. [By-the-by, Brazil did the very same thing at the time.]

IBM (World Trade) withdraw from India totally - sales, support, and manufacturing.

Today ... IBM seeks to increase its Indian "foot-print" - but why?

Largely because Johnny and Suzy, educated in the US public school systems, which US tax payers are "forced" to fund, cannot read, write, or add/subtract ... let alone reason.

Suggestion: All children, at their birth in the US, get a set of the "McGuffey's Eclectic Reader" and a Merrian-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. At age five ... they take by "themselves" a timed test ...

20 posted on 06/24/2005 10:58:59 AM PDT by jamaksin
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To: marvlus

Probably the truest thing written today.


21 posted on 06/24/2005 11:00:55 AM PDT by RobbyS (chirho)
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To: Truthsayer20

Patriotism is a mere sentiment?

Wow.


22 posted on 06/24/2005 11:03:40 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Liberals are blind. They are the dupes of Leftists who know exactly what they're doing.)
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To: jamaksin

"Today ... IBM seeks to increase its Indian "foot-print" - but why?"

Money. If you think it's because of a lack of educated workers, you're eating more mushrooms than are good for you.


23 posted on 06/24/2005 11:03:43 AM PDT by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: jamaksin

Johny and Suzi have no interest in math ans science, in part because the schools don't hire teachers who know the subjects; in part because these subjects threaten the self-esteem of so many students.


24 posted on 06/24/2005 11:03:52 AM PDT by RobbyS (chirho)
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To: theDentist
Fast-food restaurants are experimenting with placing their drive-through order-takers in a central location. That is, they communicate with the drivers over a phone line from a remote call-center. At that point, it doesn't matter whether the call-center is in Kansas or Bangalore.

Don't assume a career in fast-food service is safe from outsourcing.

25 posted on 06/24/2005 11:04:05 AM PDT by ordinaryguy
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To: Truthsayer20
We just do not understand a global economy... we have operations in the states from Japan, Germany etc... all employing American workers... but we have to clearly see that where any nation moves.. so moves the world.. keep your eye on China, India and Africa... they are carefully and with strategy moving, with force, into global trade.. we are too busy spiting at each other to actually appreciate what we must to to compete on a new trade platform.. for instance... Florida and Brazil compete in the citrus industry.. Brazil exports 99% of it products globally.. Florida keeps almost 95% of its products in the US.. if Florida Citrus gurus expanded their growth and exported their expertise under current branding.. say in Morocco.. developing new groves/production for the emerging EU/African market.. it would not only match Brazil but within a decade over ride the Brazilian market.. Fla. Citrus has superior products.. but shrinking groves... but we just do not think this way..
Note: this morning China would like to purchase a huge hunk of our oil industry.. ouch!
We are now known as the chief "cash giver" of the world.. what we need to be known as is the Global Trade platform ... we just don't get it is no longer gifts to developing countries.. but jobs and opportunities.. all helping to build viable organic democracies upon strong economic platform..
Just my two cents...on a Friday afternoon..
26 posted on 06/24/2005 11:04:09 AM PDT by Fritzy (Fritzy)
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To: jamaksin

total nonsense. this is not the fault of the US education system. that same education system created the engineers which developed the telecommunications and internet revolutions in the late 90s. what happened, everyone "got dumb" in the last 5 years?

this is corporate greed, pure and simple, and a political class that has been bought off to allow it under the banner of "free trade".


27 posted on 06/24/2005 11:06:55 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: phoenix_004
The winners are the richest corporations in the world, and American workers lose."

The American consumer wants cheap tech and cheap software. If it comes down to a $50 software program made in India or a $150 program made here, which one are you going to choose?

You can't complain that your jobs are going overseas and then buy the overseas product.

28 posted on 06/24/2005 11:08:46 AM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: Truthsayer20
The free-market economy doesn't know "patrotism" or any other sentamentalism

Spoken like a true free-traitor trader.

29 posted on 06/24/2005 11:10:36 AM PDT by austinite
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To: hopespringseternal
"I work for a company that outsources, and I see it all the time. In-house workers manage to duck management's best efforts to stymie them and get something done. Outsourced projects come back, time after time, with huge performance and quality issues. Management then wants in-house people to tidy it up for release.

They always wind up spending a lot more to get the product ready to market, but pointing that out is forbidden. I have even caught management in outright lies about the resources they devoted to projects. They were lying because to disparage outsourcing is a career-ender for a manager.
"

There's a lot of truth in your words. The problem is more of an issue of vanity in our "elite" than one of profit. Here's another example.

Mexican nationals were getting about $15 per hour as laborers in concrete work in Denver (~ year 2000). There's a large pool of US citizens who will do the work for that pay, but they insist on acting like US citizens (will not grovel, act like slaves or serve certain kinds of personal demands).

Corporate officers and managers don't like being subject to technical considerations of software developers at all. Corporates continue to try through some universities to train people with management degrees in a little of the technical work without real success (time constraint, even for software development programs). Even software developers must train themselves, for the most part, by working in projects after they finish programs in their field.

As the US dollar falls relative to other currencies, foreign labor and products will be more expensive for US corporates. Then new domestic competition will happen.

Let's form consulting/project teams and get to work. Let's use some of our visiting foreign national friends (thereby taking them out of the market for established corporates) in our new teams and teach them how to be sassy to bosses.
30 posted on 06/24/2005 11:16:52 AM PDT by familyop ("Let us try" sounds better, don't you think? "Essayons" is so...Latin.)
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To: oceanview
total nonsense. this is not the fault of the US education system. that same education system created the engineers which developed the telecommunications and internet revolutions in the late 90s. what happened, everyone "got dumb" in the last 5 years?

A good part of those engineers were H1-bs. Americans aren't dumber, just less interested in studying tech. When I went to engineering school, over half the class was foreigners.

31 posted on 06/24/2005 11:17:01 AM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: austinite

Two big companies I know of here in Richmond, Capital One and Philip Morris have outsource many of their IT operations to IBM. Guess we know where those jobs are going.


32 posted on 06/24/2005 11:18:32 AM PDT by Doohickey (The more cynical you become / the better off you'll be)
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs

except that there are no cost savings with IT offshoring. amex offshored their customer service, did they send me a check? every US bank is doing it, are they raising my interest rate? they read XRAYs in India, see the cost of getting an XRAY going down anywhere?

no, they are just pocketing the profits. the only people benefitting are executives who raise their compensation as they offshore more workers.


33 posted on 06/24/2005 11:19:36 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs

and its going to be 100% soon. any american going to college for IT/CS/EE should have their head examined right now. every kid I talk to wants to be a lawyer or a teacher.


34 posted on 06/24/2005 11:20:47 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: oceanview
they read XRAYs in India, see the cost of getting an XRAY going down anywhere?

Is it going up? It's entirely sensible that outsourcing is preventing X-ray costs from going up.

35 posted on 06/24/2005 11:21:34 AM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: oceanview
every kid I talk to wants to be a lawyer or a teacher.

Just what we need, more lawyers.

36 posted on 06/24/2005 11:22:28 AM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: dfwgator

Quote: And the hits just keep coming.


The Kiplinger Newsletter is very conservative on their forecast and they are usually 99% right most of the time. Been around for a bazillion years.

They said the floodgates to outsourcing/offshoring have not yet even been opened other than a small amount. Many companies were weary to do so and were waiting to see what their compeittion was going to do and some were unsure how to proceed. They said the next few years will really kick off.


37 posted on 06/24/2005 11:23:47 AM PDT by superiorslots (Free Traitors are communist China's modern day "Useful Idiots")
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To: oceanview
There are cost savings associated with IT offshoring. It is just that, as you point out, the savings are not passed on to the customer. Corporate profits are up, partly as a result of those savings.

Of course, the Chinese and Indians are looking at this, and deciding that it would be nice to have that margin for themselves. The solution is to buy the US corporations reaping the profits.

38 posted on 06/24/2005 11:24:21 AM PDT by ordinaryguy
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To: theDentist

Quote: In other news, McDonald's, Home Depot, and 7-11 Stores announced they will be hiring more employess in the foreseeable future, but they will all be minimum wage, without annual pay increases.



There is alot to be said of a nations economy when their largest private employer is Wal Mart.


39 posted on 06/24/2005 11:24:58 AM PDT by superiorslots (Free Traitors are communist China's modern day "Useful Idiots")
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To: RobbyS
"Johny and Suzi have no interest in math ans science, in part because the schools don't hire teachers who know the subjects; in part because these subjects threaten the self-esteem of so many students."

That is very true. Also, men are driven out of our universities by feminists/socialists while doing their general requirements ("liberal arts") as a multitude of programs exist to push hardly willing women into the hard sciences.

It's likely that I'll have my 12-and-15-year-olds in calculus at home by October (and more after) while finishing C++, Python, calculus and physics myself (doing what we can't do in school--much repetition and problem solving). ...only started last semester. By necessity, some businesses rely much more on tests for recruiting than on degrees, and there's more money in consulting, anyway.
40 posted on 06/24/2005 11:25:31 AM PDT by familyop ("Let us try" sounds better, don't you think? "Essayons" is so...Latin.)
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To: dljordan

You can always work at Wal Mart and live in a tent. Vote third party before it is to late.


41 posted on 06/24/2005 11:28:10 AM PDT by doc
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To: oceanview

Quote: total nonsense. this is not the fault of the US education system. that same education system created the engineers which developed the telecommunications and internet revolutions in the late 90s. what happened, everyone "got dumb" in the last 5 years?

this is corporate greed, pure and simple, and a political class that has been bought off to allow it under the banner of "free trade".



Right on Oceanview!! American workers are the most productive and innovative in the whole world...except at competing for 88 cent per hours jobs.


42 posted on 06/24/2005 11:30:44 AM PDT by superiorslots (Free Traitors are communist China's modern day "Useful Idiots")
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To: RobbyS
I wrote:
"...while finishing C++, Python, calculus and physics myself..."

Oops...er, doing more of--not "finishing."
43 posted on 06/24/2005 11:31:16 AM PDT by familyop ("Let us try" sounds better, don't you think? "Essayons" is so...Latin.)
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To: Truthsayer20
The free-market economy doesn't know "patriotism" or any other sentimentalism.

Agree with that point of view. Think of all those Japanese and German Car Company's setting up shop in the States hiring Americans, to satisfy the US demand, instead employing fellow country men in their respective countries.

44 posted on 06/24/2005 11:38:18 AM PDT by danmar ("No person is so grand or wise or perfect as to be the master of another person." Karl Hess)
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To: ColoCdn
My first share of IBM stock was purchased in 1947 ... I have watched said firm onward ...
45 posted on 06/24/2005 11:42:03 AM PDT by jamaksin
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To: RobbyS

Wrong answer.


46 posted on 06/24/2005 11:43:05 AM PDT by jamaksin
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
When I went to engineering school, over half the class was foreigners.

Unless you are willing to go for the Phd, an engineering degree is not a good idea for many people. How many lawyers or teachers spend months out of work?

As it is, there are far too many engineers, especially considering the number we import. Engineers have become nearly worthless to large companies, they can hire and fire at will.

The reason why there are no engineering students is because it is one of the dumber career moves you can make.

47 posted on 06/24/2005 11:43:15 AM PDT by hopespringseternal (</i>)
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To: doc

"Vote third party before it is to late."

Constitution/libertarian last time


48 posted on 06/24/2005 11:43:49 AM PDT by dljordan
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To: oceanview
Wrong answer!

Pointer - What did PM Blair say yesterday ... something about an Indian and Chinese threat from where .... ?

Welcome to Globalization ... !!!

49 posted on 06/24/2005 11:46:08 AM PDT by jamaksin
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To: danmar
Agree with that point of view. Think of all those Japanese and German Car Company's setting up shop in the States hiring Americans, to satisfy the US demand, instead employing fellow country men in their respective countries. The big difference is that the German/Jap companies set up shop here in the US to sell what is produced in the US.

The outsourcing to India and the turd world is an end run around the pain in the a$$ American worker who expects to be paid decent wages.

50 posted on 06/24/2005 11:47:16 AM PDT by austinite
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