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Let's start counting citizens
Pittsburgh Live ^ | June 26, 2005 | Dimitri Vassilaros

Posted on 06/26/2005 3:45:54 PM PDT by Founding Father

Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., wants to change one word in the U.S. Constitution.

Replacing "persons" with "citizens" in the 14th Amendment would force the Census Bureau to discount foreigners -- legals and illegals -- to ensure that every American finally would be properly represented in the House.

Michigan would gain a seat, as would Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Montana and Utah, according to Ms. Miller.

"It is almost ridiculously simple" she said.

(Excerpt) Read more at pittsburghlive.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California; US: Florida; US: Indiana; US: Kentucky; US: Michigan; US: Mississippi; US: New York; US: Oklahoma; US: Pennsylvania; US: Texas; US: Utah; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: aliens; citizens; constitution; districts; illegalimmigrants; immigrantlist; politics; votingrights
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Because the census counts foreigners as well as Americans, 67,000 Californians have the same representation in the House as 217,000 Michiganders.

How does one say "One man, one vote" in Spanish?

I must admit I was unaware of the influence of illegals and legal non-citizens in the apportionment of representatives.

1 posted on 06/26/2005 3:45:54 PM PDT by Founding Father
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To: Founding Father

So Oklahoma lost our Congressional seat because they count illegals? I am for this change 100%! That is absolutely disgusting and am passing on to my State Rep and Senator not mention by Congressman and two Senators.


2 posted on 06/26/2005 3:47:41 PM PDT by PhiKapMom (AOII Mom -- J.C. for OK Governor; Allen in 2008)
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To: PhiKapMom; Jeff Head; Travis McGee; wardaddy

Bump to the top !


3 posted on 06/26/2005 3:53:10 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: Founding Father

Counting illegal aliens in the Census is like counting an unknown passerby as part of your immediate family.


4 posted on 06/26/2005 3:54:08 PM PDT by jigsaw (God Bless Our Troops!)
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To: Founding Father

Making the illegal invasion of the USA a felony
would allow citizen arrests....and force leos to do their jobs
or suffer arrests themselves

imo


5 posted on 06/26/2005 3:54:45 PM PDT by joesnuffy (Just trying to get in touch with my inner tagline)
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To: Founding Father
'it'll never pass cuz it makes way too much sense' bump
6 posted on 06/26/2005 3:57:50 PM PDT by tomkat
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To: Founding Father

Making the illegal invasion of the USA a felony
would allow citizen arrests....and force leos to do their jobs
or suffer arrests themselves

imo


7 posted on 06/26/2005 3:58:54 PM PDT by joesnuffy (Just trying to get in touch with my inner tagline)
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To: Founding Father

I propose amending the Constitution as written "persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside." to read "persons born of legal resident parent(s) or of legal visitors in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside."


8 posted on 06/26/2005 4:04:58 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey has more horses per square mile than any other U.S. state.)
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To: Founding Father

Since, legally, only US citizens are allowed to vote, I'm all for it!


9 posted on 06/26/2005 4:06:07 PM PDT by toothfairy86
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To: tomkat

She will be getting a call from the ACLU, any moment now!


10 posted on 06/26/2005 4:07:14 PM PDT by Txsleuth (Mark Levin for Supreme Court Justice)
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To: Founding Father

It might help to know what 'person' actually means.


11 posted on 06/26/2005 4:08:52 PM PDT by RightWhale (withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty)
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To: Founding Father

I think in the old days, before there was "naturalization" all the people were citizens, except for the slaves and indians which if present in the district were presumed NOT to participate in the body politic.

I don't know the history of naturalization rules, like when they were established. I expect it was a crazy quilt dependent on the state, the time and the ethnicity.


12 posted on 06/26/2005 4:09:22 PM PDT by billl
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To: Founding Father

I hope Rep. Miller is successful in her effort.


13 posted on 06/26/2005 4:12:48 PM PDT by arnoldpalmerfan (Tancredo for President 2008)
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To: Txsleuth

Completely off-topic, but I kinda miss Texas . . .


14 posted on 06/26/2005 4:13:59 PM PDT by tomkat
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To: XRdsRev

I would support that amnedment to the Constitution.


15 posted on 06/26/2005 4:14:03 PM PDT by arnoldpalmerfan (Tancredo for President 2008)
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To: joesnuffy

I am with you 100% -- make it a felony and put business people who hire illegals in jail and see how fast they get out of the hiring illegal trade.


16 posted on 06/26/2005 4:17:00 PM PDT by PhiKapMom (AOII Mom -- J.C. for OK Governor; Allen in 2008)
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To: arnoldpalmerfan

This might have a chance in the house, but be much more difficult in the senate. And if it passes, how would the counters distiguish between citizens vs. non citizens?


17 posted on 06/26/2005 4:17:45 PM PDT by umgud (Comment removed by poster before moderator could get to it)
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To: XRdsRev
No way!
Anchor babies is the most popular means for aliens to delay deportation indefinitely. Citizens only of other citizens or legal permanent residents, please! Not even casual "travelers" should enjoy that privilege (which would instantly be abused; expect thousands of pregnant tourists.)

I propose amending the Constitution as written "persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside." to read "persons born of legal resident parent(s) or of legal visitors in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside."

18 posted on 06/26/2005 4:21:29 PM PDT by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are ignorance, stupidity and hydrogen)
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To: Founding Father

I'm sure that Congress can come up with a workable compromise on the issue, like counting illegals and non-citizens as, oh, I don't know, three-fifths?


19 posted on 06/26/2005 4:23:33 PM PDT by Loyalist (No confidence in Mr. Dithers.)
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To: umgud
And if it passes, how would the counters distinguish between citizens vs. non citizens?

Ask to see a driver's license?

Oh, yeah, right!

Never mind.

20 posted on 06/26/2005 4:23:38 PM PDT by IonImplantGuru (June! It's bustin' out all over... ENJOY!)
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To: billl

The slaves and Savages did count for some of the population state by state, even though suffrage was not yet extended to those groups.


21 posted on 06/26/2005 4:26:00 PM PDT by RightWhale (withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty)
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To: RightWhale
It might help to know what 'person' actually means.

What was meant, when it was written, is perfectly clear. A little research into the change of language, the last 200 odd years, plus a casual review of the Federalist Papers, establishes the intent beyond any question.

Persons included full citizens (property owners), non voting citizens (non-property owners) and slaves.
Even our unenlightened First Fathers figured out that non property owners, having nothing to lose, would be the fatal flaw in a system where expenditures would be determined only through qualified citizens' voting for them.

22 posted on 06/26/2005 4:28:30 PM PDT by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are ignorance, stupidity and hydrogen)
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To: billl
I think in the old days, before there was "naturalization" all the people were citizens...

Wrong.
This was never the case!

23 posted on 06/26/2005 4:29:57 PM PDT by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are ignorance, stupidity and hydrogen)
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To: Publius6961

That's right. We toss terms around freely these days, which is a problem when it comes to reading the Constitution or even things from 50 years ago in some cases. Corporations were added to the rank of persons later, which is more important than most people realize.


24 posted on 06/26/2005 4:33:39 PM PDT by RightWhale (withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty)
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To: tomkat

C'mon back---there's plenty of room!!!!


25 posted on 06/26/2005 4:33:39 PM PDT by Txsleuth (Mark Levin for Supreme Court Justice)
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To: Loyalist
..a workable compromise on the issue, like counting illegals and non-citizens as, oh, I don't know, three-fifths?

All sarcasm aside, I don't believe illegal residents should ever count for anything! Same with non-citizens. Although non-citizen residents is open for grabs (so long as they are not on the public dole, e.g. non-contibuted SS payments or welfare or subsidies of any kind.)

Yes, each must decide; take public subsidies, or exercise the right to vote. Not both.

26 posted on 06/26/2005 4:35:35 PM PDT by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are ignorance, stupidity and hydrogen)
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To: Txsleuth

It's under consideration, but if it happens, replace the green above with bright red, scots/irish skin, peeling off.

27 posted on 06/26/2005 4:38:10 PM PDT by tomkat
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To: PhiKapMom

"make it a felony and put business people who hire illegals in jail and see how fast they get out of the hiring illegal trade."

While I agree with you, I am torn somewhat on this issue. I don't like the hiring of illegals but as someone who has worked in construction trades here in NJ, I realize that for many small firms, it is almost impossible to compete unless they hire illegals. They have become so ingrained in the cycle of business that it almost is a given that they will be hired when available. Heck, there are painting and landscaping firms operating openly around here that are owned by illegals who only hire other illegals. It is very hard to compete when the other company is hiring guys off the street for $75-100 day, no insurance, no taxes, no nothing. I see that sh*t happen every day.


28 posted on 06/26/2005 4:39:34 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey has more horses per square mile than any other U.S. state.)
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To: Founding Father

The analysis--and conclusion may be correct--but as a Founding Father, aren't you ignoring the fact that we are (or were) citizens of the respective States and not (or were not) citizens of the United States? The use of "persons" allow[s,ed] US to be represented.


29 posted on 06/26/2005 4:40:26 PM PDT by jammer
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To: tomkat

I know what you mean---this Irish lady "hibernates" in the summer time...and plays in the Winter....LOL


30 posted on 06/26/2005 4:41:12 PM PDT by Txsleuth (Mark Levin for Supreme Court Justice)
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To: joesnuffy

Yes sir! 100% correct! Let's do it now!


31 posted on 06/26/2005 4:43:20 PM PDT by mr_hammer (I call them as I see them!)
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To: XRdsRev

It's time to put an end to this crap. Turning a blind eye does not make it right!


32 posted on 06/26/2005 4:45:05 PM PDT by mr_hammer (I call them as I see them!)
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To: Txsleuth
Yup, a/c, shade, and LoneStar were some of my favorite things in Austin  ;-)
33 posted on 06/26/2005 4:48:51 PM PDT by tomkat
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To: jammer

That was indeed the situation until the present Constitution was adopted. The United States was originally a Confederation of States, and was going down in flames eleven years after Independence.


34 posted on 06/26/2005 4:49:07 PM PDT by RightWhale (withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty)
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To: Founding Father

Seems like a no brainer to me, but then, so do many things that our government chooses to ignore.


35 posted on 06/26/2005 4:49:32 PM PDT by sweetliberty (Never argue with a fool. People might not know the difference.)
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To: joesnuffy
"Making the illegal invasion of the USA a felony would allow citizen arrests....and force leos to do their jobs or suffer arrests themselves"

Yeah, when Hell freezes over and pigs fly.

36 posted on 06/26/2005 4:51:31 PM PDT by sweetliberty (Never argue with a fool. People might not know the difference.)
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To: mr_hammer

I am not saying turn a blind eye. I am just saying that coming down hard on small businesses that use illegals is going to put a lot of them out of business long before the illegal problem is solved.

Some business people will comply and lose out in the ultra competetive marketplace, other businesses will flaunt the law just like they do now.

If we want to end the use of illegals in the home trades, then fine any property owner who allows illegals to work on their property. The onus will be on the customer, most of whom will make darned sure they don't hire companies that use illegals. The marketplace will weed out illegals and the companies that use them in a very short time. Of course I don't think that idea would fly and it probably isn't lawful anyway but I think it would solve the problem.


37 posted on 06/26/2005 4:52:08 PM PDT by XRdsRev (New Jersey has more horses per square mile than any other U.S. state.)
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To: mr_hammer

Illegal aliens should either voluntarily return to their home country or be deported.


38 posted on 06/26/2005 4:52:26 PM PDT by arnoldpalmerfan (Tancredo for President 2008)
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To: RightWhale; Founding Father

Yes, you are right and I am wrong. Or at least the 14th Amendment codified this travesty, I believe, among its other mayhem. Thanks for the correction, and I withdraw my post to Founding Father.


39 posted on 06/26/2005 5:04:11 PM PDT by jammer
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To: jammer

We're all learning rapidly. I find the Anti-Federalist Papers to be worth the price of a paperback. It's way ahead of whatever text we used in Civics class.


40 posted on 06/26/2005 5:09:19 PM PDT by RightWhale (withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty)
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To: tomkat

I don't know how long it has been since you have been to Austin---it has been about 10 years for me...

BUT, I hear horror stories about how bad the traffic is, and that a lot of people that I went to school with, that went to UT are wondering what happened to "their" college town.....

I haven't really had the desire to visit and find out either, because they say that the traffic from the D/FW area down 35 to Austin is like freeway traffic in Dallas during a work day,...ugh!


41 posted on 06/26/2005 5:29:09 PM PDT by Txsleuth (Mark Levin for Supreme Court Justice)
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To: XRdsRev

WOW! I did not realize it was that bad in NJ. Illegals running a company hiring other illegals and paying no benefits -- pure profit on anything above the meager wages they pay. I liked your idea further on down that talked about penalizing home owners that hire them.

When we built a new house outside of San Antonio in the Hill Country (now live in Oklahoma), I was furious at the builder when I realized illegals were doing the framing -- he got even with me -- they took two weeks off. If I had to do it all over again, we would have sued them. Same thing happened with the brickers -- they walked off the job for almost three weeks. Afterwards I realized they were almost all illegals although the builder was an Anglo as they come. Now I am mad all over again but I am a lot smarter today then I was in 1994! :)


42 posted on 06/26/2005 5:36:36 PM PDT by PhiKapMom (AOII Mom -- J.C. for OK Governor; Allen in 2008)
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To: IonImplantGuru
Ask to see a driver's license?

Gotta make em foolproof 1st, which it seems like the Real ID act might do. But you're right, they gotta ask.

43 posted on 06/26/2005 5:42:40 PM PDT by umgud (Comment removed by poster before moderator could get to it)
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To: Publius6961
NEVER is quite an exclusive neighborhood and far too brief a comment for us to learn the details.

Could you enlighten us all on this thread with some of your knowledge about all this?

By this also I mean the entire entirety of my post which was begun with "I think" and continued with "except for Indians and slaves" (which I honestly think covered 90% of the male exclusions) and then goes on to suggest it may have been a crazy quilt.

The scenarios I am unsure of, which I am hopeful you are more familiar with include:

1. when did "naturalization" 1st get defined here? Did our federal government do this first or was it states by which you got your US citizenship?
Being a citizen and being qualified to vote might have been different in the old colonies, but in the west there were less restrictions and universal white male sufferage was more of the norm.

2. how were annexed territories handled? Surely when Texas came on there must have been some guidelines. Was it everyone in Texas became a US citizen by virtue of being a Texas citizen? Did Texas have laws and rolls to check? Was it everyone around except for the slaves and Indians? Did they leave out the Mexicans?

how about the north-west territories? what if you were a Pennsy native who moved to what became Ohio? I can guess you only got to vote for Pres once you were a resident in a real state, so while you were in Ohio territory you might at best be an absentee ballot from Pennsy, if such a thing was possible way back then ...

how about the Southwest or especially California? Except for Indians and slaves, did they pick and choose or did they take all present? I think the Chinese exclusion act was a much later development, so even the Chinese 49ers might have been counted in the 1850 census.

I would think the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo had something to say about the status of the persons in this former Mexican territory, even if there were irregularities in the actual enforcement.

Maybe most people who "naturalized" as we expanded across the continent did so by being in the annexed territory from the moment of annexation or statehood or something.

I really think there were a lot of situations where blanket naturalizations were the only practical method, (again, except for Indians and slaves).

I remember seeing something on the Mexican War where Jefferson Davis (maybe then Secy of State) was described as unwilling to annex more of Mexico because then those darker people would become Americans. That sounds like the default process was a sort of blanket naturalization. I think the idea of being there or being grandfathered in goes back a long way and I just don't buy NEVER. Another interesting one that I remember is that in the history of the Old Mine Road (from Delaware River to Kingston NY) the author suggested that part of the mystery of the age of the road is caused by Dutch settlers attempting to back-date their land occupation to before the 166? British take-over the 1st time, so their claims were grand-fathered.
If it was England after taking over Canada, I think if you were there, once you swore an oath to the crown you were in. The Arcadians were an example of those not doing that.

4. the old text about the native-born requirement had the escape clause for Alexander Hamilton about "unless you were a resident of the territory of the US at the time of adoption of the Constitution" or such like that always interested me. Do you know if that was ever applied for an area that became part of the US after the 178~ ish era? Vermont? Kentucky? Did they just take people as they were so long as they were taken as citizens in their state? Abe Lincoln was born in 1809 in Kentucky. Would it have been a problem if he had been born in Illinois territory? I'm not sure if being able to be President wasn't just a special case.

What about the people resident in areas of Maine (who until 183? was a part of Mass) who were added to Maine as a part of the Ashburton?-Adams boundary negotiations in 18?? That would be a situation where there was never a territorial interval in the annexation to the US.

Come to think of it, were citizens of the NW territories American citizens by virtue of being subject to laws, like the NW compact, which maybe was under the Articles of the Confederation (don't remember the date of the compact vs. the Constitution, but there were real close).

5. what happened if you the Irish who came over around the time of the famine? What was the basis back then of them becoming citizens? How about the Irish that were supporters of the NY political machines or the Irish that joined the civil war army. This might have been the beginning of naturalization by the methods we knew.

6. The other one that I'd like more info on is the case of seamen either seeking aid from an embassy overseas or even the case of impressment during the war of 1812. The contention of HM Gov was sometimes that the "American" sailors were either Royal Navy deserters or former Englishmen. How did we determine if they were "Americans" if in truth they had come from elsewhere? Were we just defending the property rights of US flag vessels to be unmolested in their employment arrangements? I thought they were referred to as "Americans"?

Inquiring minds want to know...
44 posted on 06/26/2005 5:55:40 PM PDT by billl
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To: joesnuffy
allow citizen arrests....and force leos to do their jobs or suffer arrests themselves

Methinks you need to pick a more realistic wish list...you've just listed two or three things that fall into the "FFC" category.

45 posted on 06/26/2005 6:00:48 PM PDT by ErnBatavia (Like a fool, I looked up from 'neath the tree as the bird chirped...Vogelspooren)
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To: XRdsRev
I understand the problem but we have to make it absolutely impossible for the illegals to earn dollar one. If we do that, they will leave.

Legal immigrants are welcome. No problem. Glad to meet you. Welcome to America. Learn English and assimilate. You can even date my daughters.

If you are here illegally you should be out of the country in 48 hours and have to abandon EVERYTHING you have here, period.

Children born to illegal immigrants should be considered illegals themselves. As a worse case, they (the child) may be allowed to stay but their parents are deported. The parents can always take their child with them but the child must forfeit US citizenship. It think this is a reasonable compromise.

We need to make it PAINFULL to be in this country illegaly or to tolerate those that are.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

46 posted on 06/26/2005 6:44:51 PM PDT by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
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To: Squantos

Hell Yes


47 posted on 06/26/2005 7:38:04 PM PDT by wardaddy (Can anybody tell me how to post from Gannett?)
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To: Founding Father

Yeah, but if we're going for true proportional representation, why not first eliminate the most egregious disproportionately representative government body in the country--the US Senate? Plus it'd stop those bastard Democrats from obstructing Bush's nominees and the spineless RINO's from being Byrd and Reid's prison bitches.


48 posted on 06/26/2005 8:42:40 PM PDT by Young GOP Samurai (Leftists: Hating America Since July 4th, 1776.)
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3rdcanyon; 4.1O dana super trac pak; 4Freedom; ...
Click to see other threads related to illegal aliens in America
Click to FR-mail me for addition or removal

Here's a ping for those who have yet to hear about Congresswoman Candice Miller's (R-Mich) proposal. The discussions to date surrounding the 14th Amendment have centered on the anchor-baby issue.

The way that Amendment is used by bean-counters, however, is much more insidious.

49 posted on 06/27/2005 9:37:17 AM PDT by HiJinx (~ www.ProudPatriots.org ~ Serving Those Who Serve Us ~ Operation Semper Fi ~)
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To: PhiKapMom
That is absolutely disgusting and am passing on to my State Rep and Senator not mention by Congressman and two Senators.

DITTO

50 posted on 06/27/2005 9:52:16 AM PDT by janetgreen
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