Posted on 06/27/2005 3:21:38 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
C900 with cast iron riser going to industrial grade.
Remember, the talk is about changing codes, so don't be surprised if the systems being proposed aren't more stout than current residential codes.
I suspect most homebuilding and fire associations are promoting the method you mention. Their capital costs to tool up for that type of work is minimal, stapling poly lines in the rafters as opposed to hanging pipe, etc,...and the cost for the trade on site plumbing early in the project is exascerbated by the finish work after others have gon ein around them. If they are able to remain on site throughout, their efficiencies might improve, although total cost obviously is higher. Might work on new construction from ground up.
This nonsense has the added effect of cutting the lower middle class right out of the housing market and forcing them to live in older houses that might be more prone to catch fire.
The $25K is about right for a "typical" or "large" house for a few reasons.
So all things considered - $25K is pretty fair.
Of course I'm only basing my opinion on 35 years in commercial construction - estimating, engineering and project management.
(an aside; sprinkler fitters are a royal pain in the *blank*, they always want the first 12" of ceiling space - which NEVER exists to begin with)
Sprinkler systems can be a major pain in the behind. Once they are installed, they add annual certification requirements, fire detection requirements, false alarms from pressure surges and much more.
All the units have sprinkler systems in them and a few of them have malfunctioned over the years--no fire but the sprinkler goes off and soaks the entire house.
Where I see the costs mounting are to replace the fire mains and road repairs implied by that work. Additional grasp of fire inspection to all facilities will promote 'smart' device interconnect with cable TV/Telephony to residential utility systems.
IMHO, rehabs would be better served by replacing older electrical systems throughout the structure and emphasizing fire detection/alarm as opposed to sprinkling.
BTW, nobody says the fire sprinklers will be allowed to function. I've seen first responders decide the fire is better contained by letting it burn the structure down, than risk a low water pressure in the area. Hence the fire department turns off the sprinkling system and dowses from the outside, merely containing flames from spreading instead of saving any property once its been determined no lives were at risk.
Should it not be: This land WAS your land, this land is now MY land; ........?
And to many promoting these changes, that 'much more' is spelled, 'j-o-b-s-e-c-u-r-i-t-y'.
no fire but the sprinkler goes off and soaks the entire house
and the price of the system makes no difference
Your right. A better way to prevent fire deaths is for Fire Districts and Code boards to enforce rules against bars on windows of sleeping rooms. There are burglar proof bars which are designed to allowe rapid release from the inside in case of emergency. There should be some financial incentive to encourage voluntary replacement. Also owners of homes built before current life safety codes should get a tax credit for upgrading their homes to meet the current code. Examples would be adding smoke detectors to bedrooms, replacing awning windows with rescue/escape size windows. Installing fire rated doors and drywall where required. Updating electrical systems would also be of great benefit.
Lives are also saved by families having an escape plan which they practice for on a regular basis. The idea of life safety codes is to allow people to escape from a fire as quickly as possible. I think the only place where residential properties should be required to have sprinkler systems is in board and care facilities and other multi family dwellings, such as apartments, dormitories and town homes. Yes I know for the most part the law does already require this, but there are exceptions. We should rethink these exceptions being careful to base any change on careful study.
For anyone interested in Life Safety Codes. (National Fire Prevention Association) NFPA 101 is the code used by most States, Counties and Cities as the basis for the life safety codes in the community.
As every sprinkler system remains 'full' at all times the demands on water will grow exponentially. And as most (many) areas of the USA now have sprinkler bans for lawns, the extra water fire protection systems demand just isn't there.
And even if it was there, then as you point out every main would haver to be ripped out and replaced with a larger one - that "ain't" gonna happen.
But more importantly (IMO) this sprinkler law for homes is just stoo-pid. Every house, even built to the basic of code standards has walls, ceilings, floors, etc that are 1 hour rated by UL and NFPA. Which means a fire would have to burn for one hour until said structure is compromised by a fire.
As such, mandatory smoke detectors, which already are the law, serve the purpose of saving lives just fine. Now hi-rises and multi-floor condo's are a different matter, and are sprinkled (Chi metro area), but we're talking 'houses'.
Lots of factors in fire considerations....Smoke detectors, firewalls, exits, access to hydrants, water pressure. We require "in house" sprinklers if you are more than 600 feet from a hydrant.
So, if we are to take the most favorable possible view of these statistics, assume that with these systems, three quarters of these fatalities could have been avoided, so we are talking about 2500 avoidable deaths a year, if these systems were installed in every residential single family or duplex home.
At a cost of $25,000 per home, multiplied by 75,000,000 homes, the total installation costs are $1,875,000,000,000. So each life saved would come at a cost of $750,000,000.
There comes a point at which the cost is just too high. $750 Million for each life potentially saved is not good public policy.
And, in fact, the actual cost per life saved under this regulation is probably much higher, since it is targeted at new construction, which has the lowest losses of any buildings. If one makes the completely reasonable assumption that new construction with hard-wired battery back-up smoke detectors has a loss rate of one tenth of older construction, we are up to $ 7.5 Billion each.
People are killed in older homes without working smoke detectors, let along fire supression systems. Most of these people could be saved through the installation of battery powered smoke detectors, at a cost of $100 a home, yielding a cost of $3 Million per life saved, which is a bargain.
If the do-gooders have to spend money, let them distribute free smoke detectors from every urban firehouse. This will put the money where it can do the most good. But plumbing suburban McMansions for sprinklers just makes no sense at all.
But doesn't halon suck all the oxygen out of the room, making it dangerous for you to be there when it goes off?
$25K does not seem unliKely to me, I’ve got bids on my desk at the moment to sprinkle a small frame two-flat (which in this case is done to residential standards) because it's a rehab of a "legally non-conforming" property which can’t be rebuilt if it experiences more than 30% fire damage, the bids are around $17-20K. One of the cost drivers is that the water supply in many communities was never intended to supply such systems, so you end up having to install a pump and associated controls. If the water pressure at the street had been just a few pounds higher the job would have been around $10K.
One other thing to consider when calculating the cost/benefits of such systems is that it’s very difficult these days to obtain insurance that really covers “replacement cost”, if a house with a market value $500K experiences extensive fire damage you can easily find yourself out of pocket for $100K to complete the repairs. A properly designed fire suppression system pretty much insures that fire damage will be contained within the room of origin.
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Sprinkler heads are pretty simple mechanical devices – usually when they “malfunction” the cause is found to be mechanical damage by residents. If you are considering such a system - especially in rental units - consider the minor additional cost of using recessed units in the ceilings s and semi-recessed units in the walls.
Smoke detectors are $10 now. If you know someone who you think should have one....buy it for them.
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