Posted on 06/29/2005 8:49:41 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan
Killers turn to assault rifles
7.62 mm weapons used in recent slayings
FLINT
THE FLINT JOURNAL FIRST EDITION
Tuesday, June 28, 2005
By Ken Palmer, Bryn Mickle and James L. Smith
FLINT - Assault rifles favored by Iraqi insurgents are finding their way onto Flint streets in alarming numbers.
A spate of shootings using such 7.62 mm assault rifles as AK-47s has police worried about high-powered weapons better suited for war zones.
Why so much worry?
A 7.62mm round can cut straight through a bullet-resistant vest.
"That powerful of a weapon is a concern for the safety of officers and the public," said Deputy Flint Police Chief Gary Hagler.
On Saturday, Kenneth M. Frohm, 28, of North Branch was killed when rounds from an assault rifle were fired into a pickup on Flint's southeast side.
A few days earlier, a Flint man was killed and another man wounded by a drive-by shooter wielding a 7.62 mm rifle on Kleinpell Street.
On June 10, a Flint man was killed when someone fired an assault rifle into a car at a S. Dort Highway parking lot.
Over the past few weeks, police also have investigated incidents in which drive-by shooters with assault weapons peppered homes with bullets but didn't hit anyone.
"We've been trying to connect the dots, but as of right now, we don't know for sure (if any of the shootings are connected)," said Lt. Alvern Lock, head of the homicide squad.
Since police haven't recovered any of the guns yet, Hagler said police aren't sure what types of guns are being used.
Although 7.62 mm rounds are used by AK-47s, Hagler said they also are used in other rifles, such as the SKS, a rifle that once was the preferred weapon in former Eastern Bloc nations but which are becoming increasingly popular here.
Federal law requires background checks for gun purchases, but officials say those can be avoided by obtaining weapons through break-ins, thefts from gun dealers and straw purchases by legal buyers who resell the guns on the black market.
Such weapons as the SKS and AK-47 retail for as little as $150 and can be found for less than $100 on the street, said Vera Fedorak, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Sometimes the guns are traded for drugs, she said.
"It's whatever the market will bear," said Fedorak.
The Genesee County Sheriff's Department has seized 10 7.62 mm rifles in the past couple of months, including fully automatic versions that are illegal.
"We are seeing more of them, especially in drug houses," said Undersheriff James S. Gage.
Flint police are working with the ATF and other agencies to learn where the guns are coming from and who is using them, Hagler said.
"I don't know how they're getting here," said Hagler.
Friends of the North Branch man killed by an assault rifle called his death senseless.
"Why would you randomly take someone's life? Just to do it?" said Cathy Ryckman, mother of Frohm's 3-month-old daughter, Andrea.
The couple had been together seven years and talked about marrying next summer, she said.
Frohm called Andrea "his heart," said Ryckman.
After her birth, Frohm had her name and footprints tattooed on his arm.
The concrete worker was always willing to help a friend, said Ryckman.
"He had a big heart and always gave everybody a chance, sometimes a second chance," she said.
And the common .30-06 deer hunting cartridge will cut right through a vest designed to stop 7.62x39mm
NIJ threat level for 7.62 is only Level III. The deer huntin' round is Level IV.
I've seen an SKS for 150 bucks on gunsamerica, but the only AKs I've seen have never gone for less than 500 dollars. They're just distorting the facts.
So will my knife, my ice pick, etc etc etc.
Good point. The only thing an AK has over a deer rifle is that it shoots faster.
Yup. Pretty much anything with a blade and a strong arm behind it'll go through a bulletproof vest. What'll they do, outlaw kitchen knives?
Aside from the hysterics of the article, I saw an SKS at a gunshow for $130 a few years back. The market was flooded with Yugo surplus then.
Dang, if anyone finds the place that is selling AKs for that kind of jack, let me know. I'll take a dozen or so.
The talking points in this article date back to around 1988. Remember the Stockton massacreee? SOS, different day.
The Yugos put a bunch of sks on the market a few years ago. You could pick up a decent one for $150-200. That's about the only shred of truth or rationality in this article. Since they are being used by criminals, let's disarm the law abiding public? Just about any high velocity rifle will penetrate a vest and 7.62x39 ain't "high" velocity. Same old "if no one had guns, no one would die crap.
"A 7.62mm round can cut straight through a bullet-resistant vest."
That is an outright lie, and is being used to "scare" everyone into demanding legistation to out law "assault weapons" again.
If a 7.62mm round can cut through bullet proof jackets, then why are the military using them in a war zone?
Take this article for what it is, a propoganda tool to get an "assault weapons ban!"
Has anyone heard of a police officer being killed in Michigan with an AK-47, or SKS rifle while they where wearing a BP jacket? Hell, if that was true, these cowards woulod not even go on patrol, because the Faternal Order of Police Unions would have already filed a law suit stopping their officers from patrolling with BP Jackets that do not work!
Give me a break!
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Yugoslavian_Model_59_66_7_62x39_SKS_Rifle.html
And best of all, it is C&R eligible!
Amen.
Three bedwetting liars whose names are going on Koko's list (from the Mikado).
I have a little list
Of people who won't be missed
I bought an SKS for about $100 - but you are NOT going to find an AK, or the street or elsewhere, for close to $150.
Funny these numb-nut reporters just regurgitate what they are told without any critical thinking - they overstate the value of a dope seizure - but understate that cost of a gun.
Did you mistype, or did you say "If a 7.62 round can cut through a bulletproof jacket, why is the military using them in a war zone?" It would seem that if it can do that, it makes a lot of sense for the military to use it.
you sure that was an AK and not and AKM...the only that you can buy are the AKM simi auto...the AK is full auto!
Gist of article - 1. criminals are illegally obtaining assault weapons, 2. law enforcement cannot disarm criminals, 3. disarm the lawabiding because the criminals MIGHT get hold of an assault weapon.
You sure? I thought just about all rifle rounds required a hard plate (Level IV).
More intentional blurring of the lines between the two. Any FReeper who calls their semiatuto version an AK-47, is aiding and abetting the gun grabbers.
Not really. You can buy a kit for about $100 and a semi-auto receiver for about $100 and with a little mechanical ability assemble it yourself. However, preassembled semi-auto AK-47's will go for about $300 or so.
Yes.
-----------------
Doctors seek kitchen knife ban
EDWARD BLACK
Key points: • Doctors claim long kitchen knives serve no purpose except as weapons • 55 out of 108 homicide victims in Scotland were stabbed last year • Police superintendents say a ban would be difficult to enforce
Key quote: "Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long pointed kitchen knife is an easily available, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting" - Dr Emma Hern, writing in British Medical Journal
See article here:
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=579102005
My Brother in Law does the R&D for Bullet Proof Vests, and I can tell you right now that the 7.62X39 Russian round is used to test these vests!
The Vests that are sold to Law Enforcement and the US Military. The vests in question are designed to eat 7.62X39 rounds all day long, and the vests are tested to do just that, if the vest does not stop the 7.62X39 round, then the vest is NO GOOD!
In fact, it is the speed of the round that determines the penitration of the round, and not the size, or cal.
Thanks for the check.
Well.....I'm probably safer in Iraq than Flint, but that's another story.
A 7.62mm round can esily go through the soft body armor that the police wear. So can any other centerfire round that has eve been used to hunt deer. The troops wear body armor with a higher level of protection with special ceramic plates to stop the bullets.
IIRC, China had been caught sending boatloads of AK-47s by ship into our swiss cheese border ports.
Do police typically use military-style vests? The ones with the additional ceramic ballistic inserts? Maybe some do, but I think that the chief threat to most law enforcement officers is still a pistol round. All this journalistic talk about 7.62x39 (mid-power cartridges)and .30-06 (full-power) is just fuzzing the issues.
I want to know the exit plan for Flint is, and how are we going to win the peace? The Police are in Flint without an exist plan or a plan to win the peace!
They are talking about the semi-auto AKs, not AKMs, AK-47s, etc. Haven't seen any for $150, though.
And since when did 7.62 x 39 become "high powered?" Somebody needs to introduce 'em to 7mm Magnums.
7.62mm HAS to be an AK or an SKS? why are they so sure its 7.62x39? aren't .308, .30-06, .300mag, 7.62x54r, 7.62x25, 7.62x51 all the same diameter? and how many rifles does our military have in 7.62? M-134, -14, -60, -21, -24...
people are always so ready to blame assault rifles. it could be anything from a whole range of rifles, or even a thompson.
How about the 300HH mag? The 270 Wheatherby Mag? etc..
Another officer on the same SWAT action has a broken collar bone where the .357 mag hit his vest. It left a big cherry underneath too.
1.Killers turn to assault rifles (a semi auto Kalashnikov clone is NOT AN ASSAULT RIFLE..as it is incapable of full auto fire)
2.Assault rifles favored by Iraqi insurgents are finding their way onto Flint streets in alarming numbers (An attempt to link semi auto sporter rifles with those terrorist use...trying to get sheep to knee jerk FEAR OF GUNS)...
-Iraqi terrorists do not use semi auto Kalashnikov clones (look alikes)
3. A 7.62mm round can cut straight through a bullet-resistant vest. (so can a paring knife) but a normal Class IV vest or one with a chicken plate (ceramic armor plate...) NO THE 7.62X39 Russian round cannot penetrate an armored vest Police should be wearing
(by the way certain rimfire calibers can certain vests..police and military should have the best)
4. That powerful of a weapon is a concern for the safety of officers and the public said Deputy Flint Police Chief Gary Hagler (I hate it when cops lie...are anti US citizen and anti 2nd Amendment or are worse..woefully ignorant of firearms)
The 7.62 X 39 is a mid power round not high power..and is roughly the ballistic equivalent of the ubiquitous 30-30 round used by cowboys like John Wayne,Lucas McCain (The Rifleman and Josh Randal (Wanted Dead or Alive) and deer hunters for many generations of loyal, peace loving,honest citizens...who don't lie to get what they want
5. We've been trying to connect the dots, but as of right now, we don't know for sure (if any of the shootings are connected) (Why isn't the most important thing is to see if the killings are related and GANG or TERROR related..or if illegal aliens did this)
Why focus on the GUN?...because an agenda to promote the confiscation of honest citizens firearms is used by liberal anti 2nd Amendment politicians and those in authority is more important to them then actually doing their jobs or spending precious tax payer money doing what they are actually paid to do...
And that is stop criminals rather than promote their political anti American agendas
They still have NOT identified the firearms yet insist that they were all "ASSAULT RIFLES"
IMO
7.62X39 tends to be loaded with 130 gr bullets. .308 tends be loaded with 168 gr. You can discern the origin from the rifling pattern and weight.
A Ruger Mini-30 fires 7.62X39 as well.
Oy veh, what a bunch of morons.
They found 10 full-auto AK's (real AK's) - these are not technically "illegal" unless they're possessed by someone without the right tickets, which they probably were in this case. Assuming they were, in fact, illegal, what does the author think can be done about them? Make them illegaler?
Coulda been.
Mil surp 308 tends to be loaded with 150 gr FMJ
I'm kicking myself for not going to your store.
"Federal law requires background checks for gun purchases, but officials say those can be avoided by obtaining weapons through break-ins, thefts from gun dealers and straw purchases by legal buyers who resell the guns on the black market."
Well then, why don't they simply pass laws to say that people can't commit break-ins or other thefts? Oh, wait...
Any deer caliber class rifle round will go through a typical law enforcement bullet proof vest like a hot knife through butter. Ceramic plate vests are the only thing that will stop some of them.
A combination of speed, bullet diameter, and bullet weight determine its penetration.
AK-47 is the milled receiver version of the Kalishinkov, AKM is the stamped version.
I've got a lever action .30-30 that'll shoot sabot .223 rounds down range at around 3000fps. That'll put a hole through two sets of Class IIa vests at "combat" range. More if I use pulls from SS109 steel cored mil-spec rounds.
yes, but how well does the reporter know this? the cop? i don't see anything in the article that says how they determined it was an AK or SKS.
this is the same problem i had with the washington sniper a few years back. there was no proof it came out of an AR until it was recovered. but yet, you saw a couple newsmen on CNN walking around stage with (gasp) an AR15. which of course he declared was identical to the US army's m16.
I do hope the jury decides to hang that perp. Shooting an officer is bad enough, but shooting him in the back is beyond even the most wild eyed extreme Liberal's ability to rationalize.
I do hope the jury decides to hang that perp. Shooting an officer is bad enough, but shooting him in the back is beyond even the most wild eyed extreme Liberal's ability to rationalize.
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