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Gene study suggests Polynesians came from Taiwan
Reuters ^ | Mon Jul 4, 2005 | Anon

Posted on 07/05/2005 6:34:19 AM PDT by Pharmboy

A genetic study helps confirm the theory that Polynesians, who settled islands across a vast swathe of ocean, started out in Taiwan, researchers reported on Monday.

Mitochondrial DNA, which is passed along virtually unchanged from mothers to their children, provides a kind of genetic clock linking present-day Polynesians to the descendants of aboriginal residents of Taiwan.

Samples taken from nine indigenous Taiwanese tribes -- who are different ethnically and genetically from the now-dominant Han Chinese -- show clear similarities between the Taiwan groups and ethnic Polynesians, Jean Trejaut and Marie Lin of Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taipei and colleagues reported.

Indigenous Taiwanese, Melanesian and Polynesian populations share three specific mutations in their mitochondrial DNA that are not found in mainland east Asian populations, they report in the journal Public Library of Science Biology.

Their findings suggest that Taiwanese aboriginal populations have been genetically isolated from mainland Chinese for between 10,000 and 20,000 years, and that the original Polynesian migrants originated from people identical to the aboriginal Taiwanese.

Earlier studies have looked at the Y chromosome, which men pass along from father to son.

No Y chromosome link has been found between the early residents of the island of Formosa and the Polynesians, which could suggest early Oceanic societies organized around wives and mothers, the researchers, who included a team at Estonian Biocenterin Tartu, Estonia, said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anthropology; archaeology; dna; genetics; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; maori; migration; mtdna; polynesia; polynesians; relatedness; taiwan; theory
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Interesting stuff. DNA is providing great data for this kind of people tracking.
1 posted on 07/05/2005 6:34:21 AM PDT by Pharmboy
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To: thefactor; blam; SunkenCiv; martin_fierro; aculeus

Ping...


2 posted on 07/05/2005 6:35:23 AM PDT by Pharmboy (There is no positive correlation between the ability to write, act, sing or dance and being right)
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To: Pharmboy

i just knew that chiang had kicked them off the island!


just kidding!


do not wet your panties.


3 posted on 07/05/2005 6:36:15 AM PDT by ken21 (it takes a village to brainwash your child + to steal your property! /s)
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To: Pharmboy
Now the Communist Chinese government will claim that all the islands of the pacific are actually China's possession and call them rebel provinces, just like Taiwan.
4 posted on 07/05/2005 6:39:11 AM PDT by Mr. Jazzy (Bumper sticker "Martyrs or Marines: Who do YOU think will get the virgins?")
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To: Mr. Jazzy

Interesting point...and not more than a few clicks away from what could actually happen.


5 posted on 07/05/2005 6:40:45 AM PDT by Pharmboy (There is no positive correlation between the ability to write, act, sing or dance and being right)
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To: Mr. Jazzy

Indigenous Taiwanese Kids

Polynesian Children

Yeah--I can buy it.

6 posted on 07/05/2005 6:49:11 AM PDT by Pharmboy (There is no positive correlation between the ability to write, act, sing or dance and being right)
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To: Pharmboy

So where did the "first" woman live? Do the scientist know?


7 posted on 07/05/2005 6:52:22 AM PDT by sandydipper (Less government is best government!)
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To: Pharmboy
Mitochondrial DNA...provides a kind of genetic clock
Their findings suggest that Taiwanese aboriginal populations have been genetically isolated from mainland Chinese for between 10,000 and 20,000 years...

Some clock.

8 posted on 07/05/2005 6:56:30 AM PDT by Graymatter
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To: Pharmboy

Oh great my Brother in Law is going to crap - now that China has a legal right to Hawaii - So much for the self Governance proposal from Senator Akaka ("Akaka" that's Klingon isn't it?)


9 posted on 07/05/2005 6:59:52 AM PDT by kentj
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To: Graymatter

Indigenous Taiwanese tribes may be a branch of the ancestors Polynesians are descended from.

The genetic data suggests two possibilities.

The first is that Polynesians are descendants of the Taiwanese tribes.

The second is that the Taiwanese tribes and the Polynesians branched from the same mother stock around the same time, such that the mitochondrial DNA would be indistinguishable between the parent stocks for both branches.

A third, far less probable, possibility is that the genetic similarities between the mitochondrial DNA of both branches occurred separately, and such similarities are merely coincidence... Chances being anywhere from no chance in Hell, to no chance in purgatory, of such a coincidence ever occurring naturally in nature.


10 posted on 07/05/2005 7:03:24 AM PDT by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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To: Pharmboy
If the current day Polynesians originated in Taiwan, what happened to the original inhabitants of these South Sea islands? Probably exterminated by the invading Taiwanese. This mean, someone is going to have to pay reparations to someone. But who and to whom?
11 posted on 07/05/2005 7:04:38 AM PDT by quadrant
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To: coconutt2000
4th possibility, the Taiwanese tribes are descended from the Polynesians.
I wonder what sort of culture the Taiwanese tribes have? Any similarities?
12 posted on 07/05/2005 7:14:52 AM PDT by Graymatter
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To: quadrant

Last I heard, there was no evidence of any human occupation of Polynesia before the Polynesians.


13 posted on 07/05/2005 7:16:43 AM PDT by Graymatter
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To: coconutt2000
A third, far less probable, possibility is that

You left out the fourth and even far less probable, that both populations are human/alien hybrids, using the same human and alien stock...

14 posted on 07/05/2005 7:21:14 AM PDT by Paradox (Deep Impact, taking a shot RIGHT at the Tempel...)
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To: Pharmboy

bump!


15 posted on 07/05/2005 7:23:06 AM PDT by Spunky ("Everyone has a freedom of choice, but not of consequences.")
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To: Pharmboy

So much for the late Thor Heyerdahl's theories. Too bad, I liked them.


16 posted on 07/05/2005 7:32:53 AM PDT by Capriole (I don't have any problems that couldn't be solved by more chocolate or more ammunition)
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To: Capriole
So much for the late Thor Heyerdahl's theories. Too bad, I liked them.

Even more interesting will be the Mormon response as their thesis has populations coming from the middle east.

17 posted on 07/05/2005 7:40:41 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Modernist American Art in the West)
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To: Pharmboy

Anyone care to explain this reasoning? "No Y chromosome link has been found between the early residents of the island of Formosa and the Polynesians, which could suggest early Oceanic societies organized around wives and mothers."


18 posted on 07/05/2005 7:41:57 AM PDT by Graymatter
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To: SunkenCiv

GGG ping


19 posted on 07/05/2005 7:46:02 AM PDT by Fractal Trader (Free Republic Energized - - The power of Intelligence on the Internet! Checked by Correkt Spel (TM))
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To: Paradox

That's the "Evil Doctor Yakob" thesis the Nation of Islam tries to peddle. Still, may be something to it, eh?!


20 posted on 07/05/2005 7:52:39 AM PDT by muawiyah (/sarcasm and invective)
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To: Graymatter
What it means is the writer failed to properly copy down what it was the researchers actually said.

Alternatively the reason there's a link is the guys stayed home to hang around the Upper Paleolithic equivalent of a coffee house and sent their daughters and and wives overseas to earn hard money.

This custom is still practiced throughout the region.

It readily accounts for the absence of "local" Y-chromosomes.

21 posted on 07/05/2005 7:55:40 AM PDT by muawiyah (/sarcasm and invective)
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To: muawiyah

Writer failed, maybe.
Second explanation, I can't accept. Societies organized around women---ie, matrilineal descent---do not send the women out to work. On the contrary, the women in such societies, particularly those dependent on the sea, stay home and keep things smooth and orderly. The man can't be relied on to mind the home front, they're away for long periods, so society is organized around her house/clan/name. There have been few such societies known in historical times, but most of those had menfolk whose livelihood involved long absences.


22 posted on 07/05/2005 8:17:19 AM PDT by Graymatter
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To: Pharmboy; blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
Thanks Pharmboy. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

23 posted on 07/05/2005 8:26:43 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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"No Y chromosome link has been found between the early residents of the island of Formosa and the Polynesians, which could suggest early Oceanic societies organized around wives and mothers, the researchers, who included a team at Estonian Biocenterin Tartu, Estonia, said."

No, what is says is, mtDNA isn't a reliable way to study anything. But even within that paradigm, what it says is, the men who differentiated the societies were from elsewhere in one or both places.


24 posted on 07/05/2005 8:29:26 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: Pharmboy

Potential new cooking trend: Thai-Poly fusion.


25 posted on 07/05/2005 8:31:08 AM PDT by Rebelbase (Mexico, the 51st state.)
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To: Graymatter
Anyone care to explain this reasoning?

Some people in the social sciences want very badly to find evidence of societies dominated by women?

26 posted on 07/05/2005 8:52:30 AM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Question_Assumptions; Graymatter; muawiyah

bingo!

Footsteps in time that add 30,000 years to history of America
Times Online UK | 7/4/05 | Lewis Smith
Posted on 07/04/2005 9:59:36 PM PDT by freedom44
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1436650/posts

Did Ancient Polynesians Visit California? Maybe So
SF Gate | 6-20-2005 | Keay Davidson
Posted on 06/20/2005 3:27:04 PM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1426929/posts

Did ancient Polynesians visit California?
Maybe so. Scholars revive idea using linguistic ties...
San Francisco Chronicle | June 20, 2005 | Keay Davidson
Posted on 06/25/2005 11:35:01 PM PDT by nickcarraway
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1430833/posts


27 posted on 07/05/2005 9:30:25 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: Graymatter

Human beings, whether they follow matrilinealism or paternalism, trade females.


28 posted on 07/05/2005 10:39:12 AM PDT by muawiyah (/sarcasm and invective)
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To: Pharmboy

Uh Oh. The Chinese will now demand all of Polynesia as part of One China policy.


29 posted on 07/05/2005 11:08:41 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: Question_Assumptions; muawiyah

Matrilineal societies are not "dominated" by women, they just have a different perspective on relatives and how they're classified.
Not all societies "trade" females. I don't have time to go into it, but for example, in some societies, he goes to live in HER house, and their children's closest male relative isn't him, it's her brother. (And the brother is the "dominant" one. The bridegroom can dominate over at his sister's house.)
It's not easy for us to follow, even in the basics, never mind the particulars. But there are still such societies, in Asia, and up into the 1800's I believe, there were a few in Asia Minor (islands along the coast).
Go to the local library and look for a basic textbook on cultural anthropology. Some of the kinship systems people have used---successfully---can make our eyes crossed, but they exist even today.


30 posted on 07/05/2005 12:07:51 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: Graymatter

I'm certain the reparations junkies will find someone to fasten their hopes on.


31 posted on 07/05/2005 12:38:37 PM PDT by quadrant
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To: Graymatter

Even chimpanzees trade females~!


32 posted on 07/05/2005 12:52:18 PM PDT by muawiyah (/sarcasm and invective)
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To: Pharmboy
Jared Diamond came to the same conclusion based on linquistic rather than DNA studies in is a excellent book, Guns, Germs and Steel.
33 posted on 07/05/2005 12:55:59 PM PDT by Torie (Constrain rogue state courts; repeal your state constitution)
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To: Graymatter
I'm aware of the distinction. I'm also aware that it tends to get overblown and overinterpreted into many things it isn't. Otherwise, there wouldn't be books like Cynthia Eller's The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why an Invented Past Won't Give Women a Future. It would be fair to say that this particular case could be a harmless interpretation and could be correct but I see a red flag whenever I see an interpretation like this.
34 posted on 07/05/2005 12:58:47 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Graymatter

The native Taiwanese invented the outrigger canoe when they lived in Fukien province, and crossed to Taiwan. They then used the same boat to travel the Pacific, and also all the way to Madagascar, whey they are the highland tribe, the Marina (sp) people. We know the sequence, because the native Taiwanese language can be traced as the root stock language. About 98% of the current residents of Taiwan are Han Chinese, and the Fukien ancestors I think have been wiped out totally by the Han.


35 posted on 07/05/2005 1:00:41 PM PDT by Torie (Constrain rogue state courts; repeal your state constitution)
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To: Torie
The native Taiwanese invented the outrigger canoe when they lived in Fukien province, and crossed to Taiwan.

If they arrived in Taiwan as early as some say, they wouldn't have needed a canoe. Taiwan was once part of the mainland, when the sea level was lower.

36 posted on 07/05/2005 1:23:23 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: Graymatter

It was all quite recent. We know that because the languages haven't diverged that much.


37 posted on 07/05/2005 1:25:16 PM PDT by Torie (Constrain rogue state courts; repeal your state constitution)
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To: Torie
the languages haven't diverged that much.

They got a clock for that too? I hope it's better than the mtDNA "genetic clock" that pinpoints the genetic isolation between 10,000 and 20,000 years ago.
Some scholars believe that the early Taiwanese, not much earlier than 4000BC, could have gotten there without getting wet.

38 posted on 07/05/2005 1:38:58 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: muawiyah
Even chimpanzees trade females~!

Got a source for that? I'm no expert on chimps, but...are you sure you don't mean Muslims or something?

39 posted on 07/05/2005 1:48:13 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: muawiyah

Incidentally, there's a society in Sumatra which is both matrilineal and Muslim.


40 posted on 07/05/2005 2:27:38 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: quadrant; Graymatter

The following letter to Mark Steyn touches on your question...


http://www.steynonline.com/index2.cfm?edit_id=30

DANGERS OF GETTING SOFT
One of the things that caught my eye in your recent piece, "One day, Germany will have had enough" was the following line explaining how American military umbrella influenced European thinking. Absolving wealthy nations of the need to maintain credible armies softens them: they decay, almost inevitably, into a semi-non-aligned status.

History seems to support your observation. Following is an excerpt from Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" that I happen to be now reading. Here the author describes what happened when the Maori from New Zealand went to check out the Moriori who have been living on Chatham Islands for some 500 years in peaceful isolation.

---

"On the Chatham Islands, 500 miles east of New Zealand, centuries of independence came to a brutal end for the Moriori people in December 1835. On November 19 of that year a ship carrying 500 Maori armed with guns, clubs and axes arrived, followed on December 5 by a shipload of 400 more Maori. Groups of Maori began to walk through Moriori settlements, announcing that the Moriori were now their slaves, and killing those who objected. An organized resistance by the Moriori could still then have defeated the Maori, who were outnumbered two to one. However, the Moriori had a tradition of resolving disputes peacefully. They decided in a council meeting not to fight back but offer peace, friendship, and division of resources.

"Before Moriori could deliver that offer, the Maori attacked en masse. Over the course of the next few days, they killed hundreds of Moriori, cooked and ate many of the bodies, and enslaved all the others, killing most of them too over the next few years as it suited their whim.

"A Maori conqueror [later] explained, 'We took possession...in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped. Some ran away from us, these we killed, and others were killed - but what of that? It was in accordance with our custom.'"

---

I cannot tell what a multiculturalist might conclude from this self-explanatory story (and there are many more stories). Maybe the Maori warriors were from broken families and spent too much time watching violent TV shows. I have a better idea though of what a realist would learn from it. Cultural customs that are beyond what we understand as rational are most likely beyond our negotiation capabilities. I've been telling (soft-on-enemies and hard-on-friends) people for years my instinctive observation that they've had it too easy for too long and that they lost their ability to distinguish between friends and enemies - they, as you have pointed out, have decayed.

I only worry that if the appeasers win the upper hand in today's clash with Islamofascist terrorism we all (including many of us non-appeasers) will have to pay a much higher price later - in accordance with terrorist custom.

Jan Vrana
Montreal


41 posted on 07/05/2005 5:03:04 PM PDT by RightOnTheLeftCoast (You're it)
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To: Graymatter
No, not Muzzies. As an ordinary practice a band of chimpanzees is based on a group of brothers. They acquire females from other groups.

Human beings follow a similar pattern, and even warring tribes may well end up swapping females as part of a peace settlement.

Recall that young girl on our One Dollar Coin? Sacajawea? She was a female in transition from one tribe to another.

The swaps were not always peaceful, but healthy young females have always been considered desirable.

Or do I hear disagreement out there on that question ~ somebody doesn't like girls?! Hmmmmmm.

42 posted on 07/05/2005 8:03:58 PM PDT by muawiyah (/sarcasm and invective)
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To: Graymatter

Seems to me there ought to be some East African groups that would be both matrilineal and Moslem. A roommate of mine in college was Shone, and they are matrilineal, and some of them are Moslem. I don't know if they give it up when they convert ~


43 posted on 07/05/2005 8:05:10 PM PDT by muawiyah (/sarcasm and invective)
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To: Pharmboy

Hmmm. You really think the Chicoms want to fight the Samoans for Taiwan?


44 posted on 07/05/2005 8:06:10 PM PDT by RichInOC ("I mean he's got a weight problem...What's the n***a gonna do? He's Samoan.")
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To: muawiyah
The swaps were not always peaceful, but healthy young females have always been considered desirable. Or do I hear disagreement out there on that question ~ somebody doesn't like girls?! Hmmmmmm.

Are you referring to me? Surely you are not suggesting that I questioned your statement about females being traded, because I do not like girls?
Now, if you're simply saying that anyone who disputes your contention ("Human beings, whether they follow matrilinealism or paternalism, trade females") may be doubting it because they find females sexually unappealing---that is still no substitute for a source.

From an economic perspective, anything of value may be regarded as a commodity, and therefore, when an exchange takes place, it is "traded." However, this hardly proves that women have always and everywhere been traded like commodities. It merely proves that some observers play fast and loose with economic terms, and perhaps some observers also consider women to be little more than commodities. "Hmmmmmm."

Now, you were saying that a band of chimpanzees is based on a group of brothers, and that they acquire females from other groups. I presume you are saying, also, that they give their own females to other chimpanzee groups? And it is a simultaneous trade, female for female? Or not? Where did you come by this knowledge? I have tried to verify it, and I cannot.

45 posted on 07/05/2005 8:56:56 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: Graymatter
Try Jane Goodall's work ~ first place I ever ran into material about the blood relationships of the chimps in a band.

There was a recent report that the male gorillas that dominate an area are also brothers.

Human beings kind of fall in between chimps and gorillas in so many things, there's no reason for us to be different in this where both chimps and gorillas are so similar.

You do know, of course, that girls are born with "socialization" hardwired in. Boys are flexible and must be "socialized" by the alpha males in the group. That means the girls are already prepared to "fit in" wherever they might go, but the boys aren't.

46 posted on 07/05/2005 9:01:34 PM PDT by muawiyah (/sarcasm and invective)
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To: muawiyah

There are the Luguru in Tanzania, but I am no expert on the success of Islam at assimilating African tribes. That is, I know the Luguru are traditionally matrilineal; I do not know to what extent they are considered orthodox Muslims. They might be politically dominated by Muslims, or in some stage of assimilation, or both.


47 posted on 07/05/2005 9:15:56 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: muawiyah
You do know, of course, that girls are born with "socialization" hardwired in. Boys are flexible and must be "socialized" by the alpha males in the group. That means the girls are already prepared to "fit in" wherever they might go, but the boys aren't.

No, I do not know that. Girls are born socialized, whereas boys are flexible---but girls don't have to be taught to fit in? Sounds to me like the girls are the flexible ones, if they fit in without "preparation."

No matter, I deny all of that. I won't even ask you for a source of those views. I know where you got them. ;)

48 posted on 07/05/2005 9:25:52 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: quadrant

Sharpton is on his way!! LOL!!


49 posted on 07/06/2005 4:31:08 PM PDT by Pharmboy (There is no positive correlation between the ability to write, act, sing or dance and being right)
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To: Capriole
So much for the late Thor Heyerdahl's theories

Doesn't do anything to Heyerdahl.He posited that at least part of the Polynesians are the same people as the Ainu who may well be out of the Taiwanese stock also. Just extend migration routes back a tad farther.

50 posted on 07/06/2005 5:24:05 PM PDT by ThanhPhero (di hanh huong den La Vang)
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