Indigenous Taiwanese Kids
Polynesian Children
Yeah--I can buy it.
Posted on 07/05/2005 6:34:19 AM PDT by Pharmboy
A genetic study helps confirm the theory that Polynesians, who settled islands across a vast swathe of ocean, started out in Taiwan, researchers reported on Monday.
Mitochondrial DNA, which is passed along virtually unchanged from mothers to their children, provides a kind of genetic clock linking present-day Polynesians to the descendants of aboriginal residents of Taiwan.
Samples taken from nine indigenous Taiwanese tribes -- who are different ethnically and genetically from the now-dominant Han Chinese -- show clear similarities between the Taiwan groups and ethnic Polynesians, Jean Trejaut and Marie Lin of Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taipei and colleagues reported.
Indigenous Taiwanese, Melanesian and Polynesian populations share three specific mutations in their mitochondrial DNA that are not found in mainland east Asian populations, they report in the journal Public Library of Science Biology.
Their findings suggest that Taiwanese aboriginal populations have been genetically isolated from mainland Chinese for between 10,000 and 20,000 years, and that the original Polynesian migrants originated from people identical to the aboriginal Taiwanese.
Earlier studies have looked at the Y chromosome, which men pass along from father to son.
No Y chromosome link has been found between the early residents of the island of Formosa and the Polynesians, which could suggest early Oceanic societies organized around wives and mothers, the researchers, who included a team at Estonian Biocenterin Tartu, Estonia, said.
Ping...
i just knew that chiang had kicked them off the island!
just kidding!
do not wet your panties.
Interesting point...and not more than a few clicks away from what could actually happen.
Indigenous Taiwanese Kids
Polynesian Children
Yeah--I can buy it.
So where did the "first" woman live? Do the scientist know?
Some clock.
Oh great my Brother in Law is going to crap - now that China has a legal right to Hawaii - So much for the self Governance proposal from Senator Akaka ("Akaka" that's Klingon isn't it?)
Indigenous Taiwanese tribes may be a branch of the ancestors Polynesians are descended from.
The genetic data suggests two possibilities.
The first is that Polynesians are descendants of the Taiwanese tribes.
The second is that the Taiwanese tribes and the Polynesians branched from the same mother stock around the same time, such that the mitochondrial DNA would be indistinguishable between the parent stocks for both branches.
A third, far less probable, possibility is that the genetic similarities between the mitochondrial DNA of both branches occurred separately, and such similarities are merely coincidence... Chances being anywhere from no chance in Hell, to no chance in purgatory, of such a coincidence ever occurring naturally in nature.
Last I heard, there was no evidence of any human occupation of Polynesia before the Polynesians.
You left out the fourth and even far less probable, that both populations are human/alien hybrids, using the same human and alien stock...
bump!
So much for the late Thor Heyerdahl's theories. Too bad, I liked them.
Even more interesting will be the Mormon response as their thesis has populations coming from the middle east.
Anyone care to explain this reasoning? "No Y chromosome link has been found between the early residents of the island of Formosa and the Polynesians, which could suggest early Oceanic societies organized around wives and mothers."
GGG ping
That's the "Evil Doctor Yakob" thesis the Nation of Islam tries to peddle. Still, may be something to it, eh?!
Alternatively the reason there's a link is the guys stayed home to hang around the Upper Paleolithic equivalent of a coffee house and sent their daughters and and wives overseas to earn hard money.
This custom is still practiced throughout the region.
It readily accounts for the absence of "local" Y-chromosomes.
Writer failed, maybe.
Second explanation, I can't accept. Societies organized around women---ie, matrilineal descent---do not send the women out to work. On the contrary, the women in such societies, particularly those dependent on the sea, stay home and keep things smooth and orderly. The man can't be relied on to mind the home front, they're away for long periods, so society is organized around her house/clan/name. There have been few such societies known in historical times, but most of those had menfolk whose livelihood involved long absences.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)
"No Y chromosome link has been found between the early residents of the island of Formosa and the Polynesians, which could suggest early Oceanic societies organized around wives and mothers, the researchers, who included a team at Estonian Biocenterin Tartu, Estonia, said."
No, what is says is, mtDNA isn't a reliable way to study anything. But even within that paradigm, what it says is, the men who differentiated the societies were from elsewhere in one or both places.
Potential new cooking trend: Thai-Poly fusion.
Some people in the social sciences want very badly to find evidence of societies dominated by women?
bingo!
Footsteps in time that add 30,000 years to history of America
Times Online UK | 7/4/05 | Lewis Smith
Posted on 07/04/2005 9:59:36 PM PDT by freedom44
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1436650/posts
Did Ancient Polynesians Visit California? Maybe So
SF Gate | 6-20-2005 | Keay Davidson
Posted on 06/20/2005 3:27:04 PM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1426929/posts
Did ancient Polynesians visit California?
Maybe so. Scholars revive idea using linguistic ties...
San Francisco Chronicle | June 20, 2005 | Keay Davidson
Posted on 06/25/2005 11:35:01 PM PDT by nickcarraway
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1430833/posts
Human beings, whether they follow matrilinealism or paternalism, trade females.
Uh Oh. The Chinese will now demand all of Polynesia as part of One China policy.
Matrilineal societies are not "dominated" by women, they just have a different perspective on relatives and how they're classified.
Not all societies "trade" females. I don't have time to go into it, but for example, in some societies, he goes to live in HER house, and their children's closest male relative isn't him, it's her brother. (And the brother is the "dominant" one. The bridegroom can dominate over at his sister's house.)
It's not easy for us to follow, even in the basics, never mind the particulars. But there are still such societies, in Asia, and up into the 1800's I believe, there were a few in Asia Minor (islands along the coast).
Go to the local library and look for a basic textbook on cultural anthropology. Some of the kinship systems people have used---successfully---can make our eyes crossed, but they exist even today.
I'm certain the reparations junkies will find someone to fasten their hopes on.
Even chimpanzees trade females~!
The native Taiwanese invented the outrigger canoe when they lived in Fukien province, and crossed to Taiwan. They then used the same boat to travel the Pacific, and also all the way to Madagascar, whey they are the highland tribe, the Marina (sp) people. We know the sequence, because the native Taiwanese language can be traced as the root stock language. About 98% of the current residents of Taiwan are Han Chinese, and the Fukien ancestors I think have been wiped out totally by the Han.
If they arrived in Taiwan as early as some say, they wouldn't have needed a canoe. Taiwan was once part of the mainland, when the sea level was lower.
It was all quite recent. We know that because the languages haven't diverged that much.
They got a clock for that too? I hope it's better than the mtDNA "genetic clock" that pinpoints the genetic isolation between 10,000 and 20,000 years ago.
Some scholars believe that the early Taiwanese, not much earlier than 4000BC, could have gotten there without getting wet.
Got a source for that? I'm no expert on chimps, but...are you sure you don't mean Muslims or something?
Incidentally, there's a society in Sumatra which is both matrilineal and Muslim.
The following letter to Mark Steyn touches on your question...
http://www.steynonline.com/index2.cfm?edit_id=30
DANGERS OF GETTING SOFT
One of the things that caught my eye in your recent piece, "One day, Germany will have had enough" was the following line explaining how American military umbrella influenced European thinking. Absolving wealthy nations of the need to maintain credible armies softens them: they decay, almost inevitably, into a semi-non-aligned status.
History seems to support your observation. Following is an excerpt from Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" that I happen to be now reading. Here the author describes what happened when the Maori from New Zealand went to check out the Moriori who have been living on Chatham Islands for some 500 years in peaceful isolation.
---
"On the Chatham Islands, 500 miles east of New Zealand, centuries of independence came to a brutal end for the Moriori people in December 1835. On November 19 of that year a ship carrying 500 Maori armed with guns, clubs and axes arrived, followed on December 5 by a shipload of 400 more Maori. Groups of Maori began to walk through Moriori settlements, announcing that the Moriori were now their slaves, and killing those who objected. An organized resistance by the Moriori could still then have defeated the Maori, who were outnumbered two to one. However, the Moriori had a tradition of resolving disputes peacefully. They decided in a council meeting not to fight back but offer peace, friendship, and division of resources.
"Before Moriori could deliver that offer, the Maori attacked en masse. Over the course of the next few days, they killed hundreds of Moriori, cooked and ate many of the bodies, and enslaved all the others, killing most of them too over the next few years as it suited their whim.
"A Maori conqueror [later] explained, 'We took possession...in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped. Some ran away from us, these we killed, and others were killed - but what of that? It was in accordance with our custom.'"
---
I cannot tell what a multiculturalist might conclude from this self-explanatory story (and there are many more stories). Maybe the Maori warriors were from broken families and spent too much time watching violent TV shows. I have a better idea though of what a realist would learn from it. Cultural customs that are beyond what we understand as rational are most likely beyond our negotiation capabilities. I've been telling (soft-on-enemies and hard-on-friends) people for years my instinctive observation that they've had it too easy for too long and that they lost their ability to distinguish between friends and enemies - they, as you have pointed out, have decayed.
I only worry that if the appeasers win the upper hand in today's clash with Islamofascist terrorism we all (including many of us non-appeasers) will have to pay a much higher price later - in accordance with terrorist custom.
Jan Vrana
Montreal
Human beings follow a similar pattern, and even warring tribes may well end up swapping females as part of a peace settlement.
Recall that young girl on our One Dollar Coin? Sacajawea? She was a female in transition from one tribe to another.
The swaps were not always peaceful, but healthy young females have always been considered desirable.
Or do I hear disagreement out there on that question ~ somebody doesn't like girls?! Hmmmmmm.
Seems to me there ought to be some East African groups that would be both matrilineal and Moslem. A roommate of mine in college was Shone, and they are matrilineal, and some of them are Moslem. I don't know if they give it up when they convert ~
Hmmm. You really think the Chicoms want to fight the Samoans for Taiwan?
Are you referring to me? Surely you are not suggesting that I questioned your statement about females being traded, because I do not like girls?
Now, if you're simply saying that anyone who disputes your contention ("Human beings, whether they follow matrilinealism or paternalism, trade females") may be doubting it because they find females sexually unappealing---that is still no substitute for a source.
From an economic perspective, anything of value may be regarded as a commodity, and therefore, when an exchange takes place, it is "traded." However, this hardly proves that women have always and everywhere been traded like commodities. It merely proves that some observers play fast and loose with economic terms, and perhaps some observers also consider women to be little more than commodities. "Hmmmmmm."
Now, you were saying that a band of chimpanzees is based on a group of brothers, and that they acquire females from other groups. I presume you are saying, also, that they give their own females to other chimpanzee groups? And it is a simultaneous trade, female for female? Or not? Where did you come by this knowledge? I have tried to verify it, and I cannot.
There was a recent report that the male gorillas that dominate an area are also brothers.
Human beings kind of fall in between chimps and gorillas in so many things, there's no reason for us to be different in this where both chimps and gorillas are so similar.
You do know, of course, that girls are born with "socialization" hardwired in. Boys are flexible and must be "socialized" by the alpha males in the group. That means the girls are already prepared to "fit in" wherever they might go, but the boys aren't.
There are the Luguru in Tanzania, but I am no expert on the success of Islam at assimilating African tribes. That is, I know the Luguru are traditionally matrilineal; I do not know to what extent they are considered orthodox Muslims. They might be politically dominated by Muslims, or in some stage of assimilation, or both.
No, I do not know that. Girls are born socialized, whereas boys are flexible---but girls don't have to be taught to fit in? Sounds to me like the girls are the flexible ones, if they fit in without "preparation."
No matter, I deny all of that. I won't even ask you for a source of those views. I know where you got them. ;)
Sharpton is on his way!! LOL!!
Doesn't do anything to Heyerdahl.He posited that at least part of the Polynesians are the same people as the Ainu who may well be out of the Taiwanese stock also. Just extend migration routes back a tad farther.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.