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Is the Drug War a Conservative or Liberal Issue? (Warning: I am a Newbie to starting posts)
Sensei Ern

Posted on 07/05/2005 9:30:27 AM PDT by Sensei Ern

For many years, I have been a strong opponent of legalizing drugs. As you read this, remember that I am still against drug legalization, but I have more sympathy for the opposing argument.

The reason I have been opposed to drug legalization is to protect children. I grew up in a home that was one step up from a crack house..at least we had heat and food. I know first hand what can happen when a child lives in those conditions.

As a counter, I have always felt that use of tobacco and alcohol should be legal for those of a responsible age.

The reason I am considering a change is because of the pain I went through this last month. Four weeks ago, I had a root canal done on a tooth...it was Friday. Once the Novocain wore off, I was in serious pain because the doctor was inexperienced and left a partial root. I experienced pain worse than listening to Rosanne Barr sing the National Anthem. He forgot to write a prescription.

I called the emergency number only to be told I could see the doctor on Monday. TWO WHOLE DAYS IN EXTREME PAIN! I had some 800mg Ibuprofen in the medicine cabinet. That only took away enough pain to convince myself to not commit suicide to stop the pain.

On Monday, I was given a prescription of Tylenol 3 with Codeine and an antibiotic. That took away the pain. Until it ran out. Again, extreme pain. Another dentist did another root canal...and again did not get the whole root. I made sure he gave me a prescription for the pain, before I left the office.

Finally, when that ran out, and another dentist completed the root canal, the pain has subsided.

To be in the kind of debilitating pain I was in, cannot be described. Bill Cosby once talked about taking your bottom lip and pulling it over your head...that comes close.

I have always been an advocate of personal responsibility. That conflicted with knowing that some of the drugs offered today are so dangerous that they needed to be regulated. Then, I thought back about how things were a hundred years ago. The doctor prescribed a treatment, and you either made it yourself, or went to the pharmacist, who mixed up the more potential drugs.

Back then, the only regulation was, could you afford the cost? Drugs were available, and the pharmacist would determine whether you were abusing. If you OD'd on a drug from abuse, you died and life went on for others. But, you could get drugs if they were needed, and you did not have to wait until Monday. You didn't need to wait for approval from anyone to use a drug.

That is enough about that for the moment.

If drugs were to be legalized, they should be regulated like alcohol and cigarettes...have a legal purchasing age. Also, if you do harm to another while under the influence of anything, you should be held personally responsible...to the fullest extent, especially capital punishment for causing a death. If you are taking drugs to get high, strap yourself into a chair and sleep it off.

If drugs were immediately legalized, we could expect some immediate effects. For one, the drug addicts would run out and by everything, and we would have a rash of overdosing for about a month. The rest of us could then go on with our lives, only mourning the loss of a relative, instead of daily living with the horror of a drug addict in our lives.

Currently, I believe law enforcement should be stronger. But, I could be moved to undecided if I heard good arguments for the opposite.

--Pray for our troops --Pray they have wisdom to do the right thing --Pray they remain courageous --Pray they know we love and support them --Pray they get the equipment they need to do the job --Pray for their safe return home to a hero’s welcome


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: drugs; drugskilledbelushi; drugskilledchris; drugskilledjanis; getthecopshigh; letsgetstonned; personal; responsibility; wannagethigh; wodlist
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I wrote this a year ago. I was reminded after listening to Michael Graham talking about those in congress considering making sudafed, et al, over the counter drugs because they are a key ingredient in meth.

I wonder how many people would die from over dosing. I suspect it would level off around 3% of the population of the U. S. That is about 7.5 million. That is just a WAG, so I could be wrong.

1 posted on 07/05/2005 9:30:30 AM PDT by Sensei Ern
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To: Sensei Ern
"For many years, I have been a strong opponent of legalizing drugs."



I think decriminalizing drug use would be a better idea. Too many people sitting in jail for non-violent simple possession crimes. Let them out and make room for violent offenders.
2 posted on 07/05/2005 9:36:09 AM PDT by need_a_screen_name
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To: Sensei Ern
If drugs were to be legalized, they should be regulated like alcohol and cigarettes...have a legal purchasing age.

We already have what you desire. The doctor's prescription is the regulation and it also determines a legal purchasing age.

3 posted on 07/05/2005 9:36:58 AM PDT by Socratic (Liberal's motto: Capio ergo sum.)
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To: Sensei Ern
If drugs were to be legalized, they should be regulated like alcohol and cigarettes...

Libertarians are welcome, just don't expect a lot of support.

Ya might even get a "Troll" alert for such statements.

4 posted on 07/05/2005 9:37:00 AM PDT by TexasCajun
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To: Sensei Ern
There are a number of Freepers in good standing who oppose the War On Drugs for various reasons. That is one of the issues that divides us here. It can get pretty contentious, but I think at the time, most agree to disagree politely, certainly not as bad as those Evolution vs Creationism threads!In general, I am a libertarian on the issue (against the WOD), but its not one of those things that is on the front burner, so to speak.
5 posted on 07/05/2005 9:38:30 AM PDT by Paradox (and then sometimes...)
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To: Sensei Ern

But... But... If we let people treat their own pain, then someone might get high. And we all know that the most important issue in America is to keep those damned druggies from getting high. It was worth selling out our Bill of Rights, doncha know. Every day I feel a creeping fear that someone, somewhere might be getting high. And we can stop that from happening with the perfect new law. I recently realized that if we put everyone in jail whether they have commited an offense or not, we could probably keep everyone from getting high.


6 posted on 07/05/2005 9:41:45 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: Sensei Ern
Not bad for a "newbie" posting  =)

I don't use drugs and never will so I personally could not care less one way or another.  But ...

You make good points for advocating de-criminalization if drugs.  To me, it seems to be, "Why not"?  We are not stopping anyone from using them anyway and maybe we could take some of the tax burden off of smokers and drinkers and put it on drug users.

Question:  You screen name says "Senei", what are you a Sensei of?

7 posted on 07/05/2005 9:44:05 AM PDT by softwarecreator (Facts are to liberals as holy water is to vampires)
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To: mysterio

Exactly!

Gotta make more laws you know. After all, thats what seperates Conservatives from Liberals right? Ooops!


8 posted on 07/05/2005 9:45:44 AM PDT by LongsforReagan (Not a Hannity Republican who just spouts talking points.)
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To: Sensei Ern

Oh boy, you asked for it... :-)


9 posted on 07/05/2005 9:46:59 AM PDT by Terriergal (What is the meaning of life?? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him for ever.)
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To: need_a_screen_name
Too many people sitting in jail for non-violent simple possession crimes

Exactly.  Although I don't think they should be released outright because when they did it, it was illegal, but maybe lower the sentences.

I heard a story a long time ago about a guy selling a LOT of marijuana who got something like 40 years to life (or some such nonsense), yet convicted child molesters are free after a few years to molest again.

Our priorities are a bit warped.

10 posted on 07/05/2005 9:48:46 AM PDT by softwarecreator (Facts are to liberals as holy water is to vampires)
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To: Sensei Ern
The problem is viewing all substances as "equal"...

Anyone with an IQ over 50 knows hemp isnt as harmful as coke heroin, meth, or even abused alchohol..

Another problem is unequal enforcement...a coke user will only test positive for about 24-48 hrs...a hemp user will test positive for up to 28 days...

While a coke user will exhibit behavior traits and screw up a job...chances are...the hemp user has a family and works 40 hours a week safely...

The biggest problem is the ill gotten booty the state "steals' under the guise of forfieture...the "property" is accused of the crime....and given to the state free of charge...in many cases...without a "person" ever being charged with a crime...

Those of us who believe in personal responsibility think those who actually screw up should be held responsible....while the rest would simply like to be left alone to enjoy their "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness"...

Until their actions directly effect another adversely....they should be left alone....and leave resources for more important tasks...

Like catching killers and baby rapers and the scum that go out of their way to adversely effect other people...

my 2.5 cents.

Your mileage may vary
11 posted on 07/05/2005 9:49:48 AM PDT by Crim (I may be a Mr "know it all"....but I'm also a Mr "forgot most of it"...)
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To: Sensei Ern
Another dentist did another root canal...and again did not get the whole root.

I find it unbelievable that a 2nd dentist also screwed up.

I also think your reasoning is specious. You went from debilitating pain, to thinking back to how drugs were prescribed 100 years ago, to legalizing drugs if you're of legal purchasing age. It doesn't quite ring true.

Nice try, though.

12 posted on 07/05/2005 9:50:33 AM PDT by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (We're living in the Dark Ages.)
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To: LongsforReagan
I also think if they create a 90 percent income tax across the board, we might just have enough money to keep everyone from getting high. We can put another million officers on the street to random drug test everyone at all times. There's no expectation of privacy in public.

And water is used in the making or growing of almost every drug. We need to keep it behind the counter and keep track of who is using too much of it. They might be growing drugs.
13 posted on 07/05/2005 9:50:34 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: Paradox
I am a libertarian on the issue (against the WOD), but its not one of those things that is on the front burner, so to speak.

I fall into this camp too. There clearly is something wrong with a policy whose biggest proponents are the ones violating it (and getting rich). I would be content with the more libertarian approach or a far more draconian approach that made liberal use of the death penalty. What we are doing is a stupid waste of time, money and resources and we should have figured that out after 50 years of failure.

14 posted on 07/05/2005 9:50:53 AM PDT by jackbenimble (Import the third world, become the third world)
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To: Paradox
certainly not as bad as those Evolution vs Creationism threads

Or as bad as the Terri threads?  Those get very ugly!

15 posted on 07/05/2005 9:51:04 AM PDT by softwarecreator (Facts are to liberals as holy water is to vampires)
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To: my_pointy_head_is_sharp

Yeah, he's just a dirty drug user who doesn't have pain at all. He just made it up so he could get high. We should track his IP and send the jackboots to kick his door in.


16 posted on 07/05/2005 9:52:07 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: Sensei Ern
I called the emergency number only to be told I could see the doctor on Monday. TWO WHOLE DAYS IN EXTREME PAIN!

Not necessary. Go to an urgent care facility or the ER.

17 posted on 07/05/2005 9:52:14 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Sensei Ern
not sure legalizing or not would matter. kids often steal mom and dad's prescription drugs from home and half the little snots are now on Ritilin or similar stuff anyway.

got a problem, take a pill. hard to "just say no" when that's the way it is today and meth is easily made at home and readily available anywhere.

18 posted on 07/05/2005 9:52:39 AM PDT by Rakkasan1 (every day is a gift, that's why they call it the present.)
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To: Rakkasan1

There's no way meth can be a societal problem! We passed a law that made it illegal!


19 posted on 07/05/2005 9:53:42 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: Sensei Ern
If drugs were to be legalized, they should be regulated like alcohol and cigarettes...have a legal purchasing age.

So you think stuff like crystal meth should be legalized and "regulated"?

20 posted on 07/05/2005 9:54:19 AM PDT by k2blader (Was it wrong to kill Terri Shiavo? YES - 83.8%. FR Opinion Poll.)
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To: mysterio
But... But... If we let people treat their own pain, then someone might get high.

Yep, and people that are high don't act in a rational manner. Plenty of news reports every day of people who did dumb or violent things while 'high'.

21 posted on 07/05/2005 9:54:24 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Crim
Like catching killers and baby rapers and the scum that go out of their way to adversely effect other people...

Right ... I am about 50/50 on de-criminalization of drugs, but if we used half the resources we do to fight drugs, we could catch these sickos and put them away!

22 posted on 07/05/2005 9:54:24 AM PDT by softwarecreator (Facts are to liberals as holy water is to vampires)
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To: Sensei Ern
I wonder how many people would die from over dosing. I suspect it would level off around 3% of the population of the U. S. That is about 7.5 million. That is just a WAG, so I could be wrong.

Yeah, a WAG all right. Make sure you wipe it off real good; considering where you pulled it from it stinks to high heaven.

Illicit drugs (all illicit drugs, combined) are responsible for fewer than 20,000 deaths per year. Compare and contrast: over 400,000 deaths per year from tobacco use, about 90,000 deaths per year from alcohol use. The latter figure includes only those who die directly from alcohol poisoning; it does not include the tens of thousands of alcohol-related deaths from motor vehicle and other accidents. Do you really think that deaths from illicit drugs will increase by a factor of 375 were they legalized? Bear in mind that a significant percentage of even the relatively minuscule number of deaths from illicit drugs are directly caused by prohibition: deaths from adulterated substances that have no legal requirements for purity, deaths from accidental overdoses caused by unknown dosage levels thanks to an absence of labeling requirements.

Yeah. If drugs were legal, about 7.5 million people would die from them. Right. This is 11 times more Americans than are killed annually by heart disease, 13 times more Americans than are killed annually by cancer, 71 times more Americans than are killed annually by accidents, and more than 3 times more Americans than are killed annually... by all causes. Brother, I want some of what you're smoking.

23 posted on 07/05/2005 9:55:18 AM PDT by Politicalities (http://www.politicalities.com)
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To: need_a_screen_name; Sensei Ern

Look at the origins of drug criminalization. It wasn't just a bunch of do-gooders looking to control everyone else (as with Prohibition) but southern Democrats looking for another reason to jail black men (just like gun control was used to disarm blacks), many of whom used inexpensive cocaine instead of alcohol.

And just like gun control, they eventually got around to oppressing EVERYONE. The government spends BILLIONS of dollars evey year in a war on the people. Thousands of people are murdered every year by drug dealers over turf. When was the last time two liquor dealers battled it out? (I'll give you a hint: it was before Prohibition ended) Every year thousands of people have their private property stolen by the government on the SUSPICION that it MIGHT have come from the sale if illegal drugs, and the government doesn't even have to do so much as make an arrest.

We spend billions more incarcerating men who at one time would have just been ordinary merchants looking to make a few extra bucks. Take a fraction of that money and treat the people who become addicted and help THEM rather than the government.

Legalize drugs and practically overnight the murders over drugs will cease. The government will immediately have hundreds of thousands of jail cells empty so that child molesters can spend their full sentence.


24 posted on 07/05/2005 9:55:19 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: mysterio
You really like the term "high" don't you?  =)
25 posted on 07/05/2005 9:55:32 AM PDT by softwarecreator (Facts are to liberals as holy water is to vampires)
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To: Sensei Ern

I have never understood victimless crimes.


26 posted on 07/05/2005 9:56:05 AM PDT by downtoliberalism ("A coalition partner must do more than just express sympathy, a coalition partner must perform,")
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To: MEGoody
Plenty of news reports every day of people who did dumb or violent things while 'high'.

Exactly! That's why we need more zero tolerance laws. Anyone out there could be high! We need to find them and keep them in prison for life. And we need to use any means necessary to find everyone who has ever been high. Including throwing out the Bill of Rights.
27 posted on 07/05/2005 9:56:41 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: mysterio

I'm sure you think you're being humourous. Let me know when your sister gets raped and thrown out a window by someone who is high. Then we'll talk.


28 posted on 07/05/2005 9:57:55 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: softwarecreator

You wrote that like you have used drugs in the past. I'm calling the DEA.


29 posted on 07/05/2005 9:57:56 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: Sensei Ern
Sensei Ern,

Are you going to answer any question that anyone asks or respond to any of the posts?

30 posted on 07/05/2005 9:58:55 AM PDT by softwarecreator (Facts are to liberals as holy water is to vampires)
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To: Sensei Ern
For many years, I have been a strong opponent of legalizing drugs

I'm certain you'll find no quarrels here.

After all, who but a control freak socialist would want the government to decide what a person should do for their own health?

I think everyone would agree that here at FreeRepublic.com, we are in absolute unison with regard to this matter.

31 posted on 07/05/2005 9:59:02 AM PDT by headsonpikes ("The U.S. Constitution poses no serious threat to our form of government.")
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To: Sensei Ern

"Is the Drug War a Conservative or Liberal Issue?"

The drug war is a control issue. It doesn't matter the political leaning. It's all about the politicians and the government writing laws to control you life. Plain and simple.


32 posted on 07/05/2005 9:59:43 AM PDT by caver (Yes, I did crawl out of a hole in the ground.)
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To: Sensei Ern
Is the Drug War a Conservative or Liberal Issue? (Warning: I am a Newbie to starting posts)

It's a statist issue, pushed by people who believe that they can utopianize the world if only they are given enough government power and resources to do it. Both "conservatives" and liberals are pretty much two sides of the same coin any more when it comes to the concept of using government power to radically change the world into a new and better (that is, in conformity with their own hopes, wishes, and dreams) place. They both seem completely blind to the fact that this was tried by the Soviets, the Nazis, the Red Chinese, and Pol Pot (among others) with only disastrous results. The liberals' excuse is that they are just as blind as ever. The conservatives have no excuse at all.
33 posted on 07/05/2005 9:59:45 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: Sensei Ern
The war on drugs is portrayed as competing solutions, the drug warriors have their's, the libertarians have a different solution.

I believe the reality is that there is no solution, just a set of competing problems.

It is true that the war on drugs is itself destroying lives that would not otherwise be destroyed. On the other hand, having a crack stand at your local 7-Eleven would just destroy a different set of lives.

The situation is somewhat like the "paradox of inoculation". At some point, if a vaccine program is successful, your risk of having a side effect of the vaccine exceeds the risk actually getting the disease. But if you stop vaccinations, many more will get sick.

Likewise, if we make these extremely addictive and seductive substances easily available, even if we could restrict it to adults, would society be able to function with maybe, one third of the population stoned most of the time?

Would it really be that bad? I don't know. The only model we have in western society is alcohol and tobacco which are pretty mild compared to modern narcotics.
34 posted on 07/05/2005 10:00:08 AM PDT by dinasour (Pajamahadeen)
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To: MEGoody
No, I am sick and tired of seeing the Constitution get stomped for the sole purpose of keeping people from using drugs.

I don't use drugs, and I wouldn't if they were legal. But I think the amount of money we spend and rights we surrender aren't worth it.
35 posted on 07/05/2005 10:01:02 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: TexasCajun

Our elected officials are flaming hypocrites. They take in tons of tax money on tobacco and alcohol but get uptight about drugs. The SCOTUS ruling on marijuana is a damned joke and a violation of states' rights.


36 posted on 07/05/2005 10:01:30 AM PDT by misterrob
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To: Sensei Ern

Is the Drug War a Conservative or Liberal Issue?

IMHO, neither.

It is a big government issue.

And

It is a failure


37 posted on 07/05/2005 10:01:51 AM PDT by WhiteGuy (Vote for gridlock)
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To: mysterio
No, I am sick and tired of seeing the Constitution get stomped for the sole purpose of keeping people from using drugs.

I am sick and tired of people disregarding the dangers of drug use in order to feed some need they have.

38 posted on 07/05/2005 10:02:51 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Sensei Ern
If drugs were to be legalized, they should be regulated like alcohol and cigarettes

Bear in mind that some people here would be happy to ban alcohol and cigarettes completely0 (Reason: they don't like them - and think of the children)

39 posted on 07/05/2005 10:04:11 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (No morality can be founded on authority., even if the authority were divine - Sir Alfred Jules Ayer)
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To: k2blader

"So you think stuff like crystal meth should be legalized and "regulated"?"

First, I am still on the side of fighting drug abuse.

Second, my attitude is that if we release some drugs, release them all. Let the dummies OD and get them out of the gene pool.

As a positive side effect, most drug abusers are liberals. We would see a rise in conservatism as a majority again.

Another positive side effect is that most drug abusers are not strongly religious. We would see this country become stronger in the religous percentage as well.


40 posted on 07/05/2005 10:05:40 AM PDT by Sensei Ern (Christian, Comedian, Husband,Opa, Dog Owner, former Cat Co-dweller, and all around good guy.)
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To: my_pointy_head_is_sharp

Why is that specious? The guy needed a pain killer and he needed it NOW and could not get it because it is a prescribed drug. One hundred years ago, every pharmacist carried cocaine and dispensed it as he saw fit.


41 posted on 07/05/2005 10:07:14 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: MEGoody
Let me know when your sister gets raped and thrown out a window by someone who is high.

His sister is much, much, much likelier to be attacked by somebody who's drunk than by somebody who's high. I guess we should ban alcohol. And spend billions of dollars enforcing the prohibition. And trample all over civil liberties to do so. And accept the fact that huge quantities of money will now be flowing to criminal organizations rather than legitimate businesses to supply the demand. And that all of those illicit dollars will go untaxed. Sounds like a great solution to me.

42 posted on 07/05/2005 10:08:32 AM PDT by Politicalities (http://www.politicalities.com)
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To: softwarecreator

I posted it during a break at work. I will respond as I can.


43 posted on 07/05/2005 10:08:33 AM PDT by Sensei Ern (Christian, Comedian, Husband,Opa, Dog Owner, former Cat Co-dweller, and all around good guy.)
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To: Sensei Ern

That's okay, know the feeling, most of us here respond during work breaks too!


44 posted on 07/05/2005 10:09:40 AM PDT by softwarecreator (Facts are to liberals as holy water is to vampires)
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To: MEGoody
I am sick and tired of people disregarding the dangers of drug use in order to feed some need they have.

Yep, drug use is dangerous. And smoking is dangerous. And drinking is dangerous. And eating fatty foods is dangerous. And NASCAR is dangerous. And bungee jumping is dangerous.

What does not follow is that the appropriate response to danger is prohibition.

45 posted on 07/05/2005 10:10:03 AM PDT by Politicalities (http://www.politicalities.com)
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To: jackbenimble

I just saw a undercover cop show the other night. They had the undercover guy dressed as a heroin addict, a team of 6-8 other protecting the cop (two were on bikes, a couple cars, a video van), surveillance equipment, the whole nine yards. Who did they bust? A guy who sold ten dollars of drugs to him. The surveillance team swarmed on this seller. OK, I thought, this is just one transactions, maybe something bigger will happen. So, the 'junkie' went on his way looking for the next drug deal. They scored on this one, the 'junkie' bought twenty dollars of drugs. What an absolute waste of tax payer's money, 6-8 cops at a salary, plus all the paper work, lawyers, da's, judges time, etc. These cops should have been out there looking for rapists, murderers, terrorists, or the drug king pins, not the small street users. If they can (A big IF, because it has not been effective yet) stop the supply line, they wouldn't be arresting kids getting high. So, is the solution to regulate it like alcohol or tobacco and tax the heck out of it? (The gov has probably a written plan of action if they go that way, laws and guidelines, etc already developed) Maybe, it would be far more effective doing it that way than what they did on that cop show. Anyway, the more I see how ineffective the WOD is, the more I say we should give up that effort.


46 posted on 07/05/2005 10:12:05 AM PDT by Indy Pendance
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To: MEGoody

Plenty of people who do dumb or violent things while sober, too. Should we outlaw being sober?


47 posted on 07/05/2005 10:12:35 AM PDT by Quick1
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To: mysterio
I don't use drugs, and I wouldn't if they were legal. But I think the amount of money we spend and rights we surrender aren't worth it.

I'm likely to agree with you except when it affects pushers hanging around schools ... those scum should hang!

If an adult wants to stick a needle in himself while wasting his life ... go for it, I'll just step over the body on the way home to my wife and family.

48 posted on 07/05/2005 10:12:52 AM PDT by softwarecreator (Facts are to liberals as holy water is to vampires)
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To: jackbenimble
we should have figured that out after 50 years of failure.

The WOD is nearly 100 years old. It was started by southern DemocRats (and socialist Woodrow Wilson) in Congress looking for another excuse to put black men in jail. When the strict constructionsist SC overturned the law in 1938, FDR (another socialist) threatened to load the courts and cowed them into submission. Then he had another DemocRat Congress pass the law again.

49 posted on 07/05/2005 10:12:57 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: k2blader
So you think stuff like crystal meth should be legalized and "regulated"?

I sure do. It's your @#$%^!! body. If you want to put crystal meth in it, or put alcohol in it, or put nicotine in it, or put Drano in it, it's your business. Not mine. And definitely not the government's.

50 posted on 07/05/2005 10:13:47 AM PDT by Politicalities (http://www.politicalities.com)
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