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Va. teen nudist camp (White Tail Park)law challenge reinstated.
San Antonio Express News ^ | 07/06/2005 | Larry O'Dell

Posted on 07/06/2005 7:39:00 AM PDT by wildbill

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- A federal appeals court Tuesday reinstated a lawsuit challenging a 2004 Virginia law requiring parental supervision at a nudist camp for juveniles.

A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the American Association for Nude Recreation can pursue its claim that the law violates its free speech rights, crimping its ability to spread its nudism philosophy.

The organization claims it had to cancel last summer's camp because only 11 of the 35 youths who signed up would have been able to bring a parent.

"A regulation that reduces the size of a speaker's audience can constitute an invasion of a legally protected interest," Judge William B. Traxler Jr. wrote in the unanimous ruling.

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A lower court judge ruled last August the lawsuit was moot because organizers of the camp at White Tail Park surrendered their permit after the state law took effect.

Emily Lucier, spokeswoman for the Virginia attorney general's office, said prosecutors were disappointed "but we expect to win at trial."

The 2003 summer nudist camp for children 11 through 17 was the first in Virginia - and only the third in the country, according to its sponsors.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; mdm; nudistcamp; parentalsupervision; sexpositiveagenda; sexualizingchildren; teennudists; whitetail; whitetailpark
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You can't make this stuff up.
1 posted on 07/06/2005 7:39:02 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: wildbill
You can't make this stuff up.

Indeed! Indecency is "speech", but political or religious discourse is "hate".

2 posted on 07/06/2005 7:40:56 AM PDT by Shalom Israel (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: wildbill

Is this for fat kids only? Who benefits besides the owners?


3 posted on 07/06/2005 7:43:11 AM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, Employers use 888-464-4218)
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To: wildbill

Hello muddah,
Hello faddah,
Here I am at,
Camp Show-your-bodda.


4 posted on 07/06/2005 7:43:57 AM PDT by VRWCmember
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To: wildbill
White Tail Park?

Okay.

5 posted on 07/06/2005 7:44:45 AM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: wildbill
A regulation that reduces the size...

(heh heh)

6 posted on 07/06/2005 7:46:50 AM PDT by Lekker 1 ("Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?"- Harry M. Warner, Warner Bros., 1927)
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To: B4Ranch

The White Tail Park is a family oriented nudist park. The notion for the teen camp was the same as with any teen summer camp, a place and time for kids to get out of the house for a while and enjoy the summer. The fact that it was nudist is what set it apart. The kids that would have gone were kids that grew up in nudist families and were already members of the park. This is just another example of government intrusion into people's private affairs.


7 posted on 07/06/2005 7:48:44 AM PDT by SailormanCGA72
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To: SailormanCGA72
The White Tail Park is a family oriented nudist park. The notion for the teen camp was the same as with any teen summer camp, a place and time for kids to get out of the house for a while and enjoy the summer. The fact that it was nudist is what set it apart. The kids that would have gone were kids that grew up in nudist families and were already members of the park. This is just another example of government intrusion into people's private affairs.

Have to disagree with you there.

Who in their right mind is going to let a mix of kids, 11 - 17, run around naked without solid adult supervision? They are all minors and until the government started prying parents from the picture, minors are the responsibility of their parents.

No good and a lot of potential harm (very likely to be swept under the carpet of "tolerance") is possible.

Besides, the judge's ruling seems to indicate that anyone who wants to speak has a right to an audience, and not just an audinece, but a larger audience than migh be on hand without insisting on parental oversight of minors. How stupid and dangerous is that?

8 posted on 07/06/2005 7:55:57 AM PDT by trebb ("I am the way... no one comes to the Father, but by me..." - Jesus in John 14:6 (RSV))
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To: SailormanCGA72

When a family decides that nudism is healthy for its members, I have no problem with that. Their decision.

On the other hand, knowing the pressures on teen agers when puberty comes and sex is a new and exciting prospect that can overcome judgement, I don't think it is too much to ask that parents be around for supervision of their naked teens.


9 posted on 07/06/2005 8:00:24 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: trebb
Who in their right mind is going to let a mix of kids, 11 - 17, run around naked without solid adult supervision?

No mix of kids, 11-17, should be allowed to run around without adult supervision whether naked or fully clothed!

10 posted on 07/06/2005 8:03:05 AM PDT by foxfield
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To: wildbill

Why don't they call this the "Child Sex Camp" and get it over with?

Jeez.


11 posted on 07/06/2005 8:06:28 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: trebb
Who in their right mind is going to let a mix of kids, 11 - 17, run around naked without solid adult supervision?

You don't have to be in your right mind to have children, you don't even have to take any reponsibility for their actions. Walking around naked in public is not natural or normal.
God (actually Christ, since no one has ever seen God) himself killed animals in the garden (before PETA) to clothe Adam and Eve so they wouldn't be naked.
When Noah got drunk and naked it was considered shameful.
Why do we need camps for children who want to be naked?
Some parents don't want their children playing with matches so they get them a lighter...

12 posted on 07/06/2005 8:12:38 AM PDT by The Brush
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To: foxfield

>>>No mix of kids, 11-17, should be allowed to run around without adult supervision whether naked or fully clothed!>>

There is adult supervision, just not parent supervision. My kids just got back from Bible camp, 16 kids to 2 >18 camp counselors. The big difference is they were CLOTHED.


13 posted on 07/06/2005 8:16:31 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: trebb
Who in their right mind is going to let a mix of kids, 11 - 17, run around naked without solid adult supervision?

There was never any question of adult supervision. The question was whether or not the parents had to go to camp with the kids. How many parents have to go to camp with their kids?

And what kind of parents would let their kids go to such a camp? Parents who have always taken their kids to family camps just like it, for most of their lives.

Their children have grown up less self-conscious about their bodies and other people's bodies. It is not a place where people let down their sexual inhibitions. It is a place where people let down their social inhibitions about the naked human body.

Of course most of those who complain about such places would probably not be allowed to stay long if they went there, because they would be unable to hide their sexual arousal, demonstrating their immaturity about sex and about their own bodies. Such people are quickly escorted out of most nudist camps.

Personally I have never been to a nudist camp but I have been to a couple predominately nude beaches here in the states and one in Europe. You can quickly tell who the perverts are and they are always in a minority and usually appear to be people who are not nude around other people very often. Their immaturity is as exposed as the rest of them.

14 posted on 07/06/2005 8:22:19 AM PDT by Wuli
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To: sandbar

I hope I'm wrong, but if this camp actually opens up with 'adult supervisors' other than parents, I wonder if they won't get a lot of pedophiles applying for the jobs.

It just seems a little creepy to me.


15 posted on 07/06/2005 8:24:35 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: trebb
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
16 posted on 07/06/2005 8:25:30 AM PDT by Rakkasan1 (every day is a gift, that's why they call it the present.)
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To: The Brush
Walking around naked in public is not natural or normal.

Well, a private camp like this isn't really "public" any more than your living room is public.

17 posted on 07/06/2005 8:27:08 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: Wuli
Of course most of those who complain about such places would probably not be allowed to stay long if they went there, because they would be unable to hide their sexual arousal, demonstrating their immaturity about sex and about their own bodies. Such people are quickly escorted out of most nudist camps.

Wait a second, becoming aroused at the sight of the naked body of an attractive member of the opposite sex is "immature"?

18 posted on 07/06/2005 8:29:44 AM PDT by ahayes
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To: wildbill

>>>I hope I'm wrong, but if this camp actually opens up with 'adult supervisors' other than parents, I wonder if they won't get a lot of pedophiles applying for the jobs.>>>

I think that's a big fat DUH. That was my first thought on the hiring of camp counselors. Personally, I think people who join this nudist colony w/family is a big pedo dream. I think the parental supervision is good, but not so much in the fact that I'm also not convinced the PARENTS aren't some sort of pedo's as well. Who wants their 11 year daughter running naked around 50 year old men? IMO,only someone who doesn't mind, if you know what I mean. DCFS would get involved if parents were giving their children alchohol or tobacco, why is this different? If it's the 'parents choice' for their children's naked bodies to be ogled, why isn't it the parents 'choice' to give their child beer, or cigarrettes?


19 posted on 07/06/2005 8:37:04 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: Modernman

>>>Well, a private camp like this isn't really "public" any more than your living room is public.>>>

So if I come over to your house for tea and crumpets you wouldn't have a problem walking around serving me naked?


20 posted on 07/06/2005 8:37:58 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: Modernman
Well, a private camp like this isn't really "public" any more than your living room is public.
Once your ceiling becomes the sky, you're not in your living room anymore. Once you put your nakedness on display to others under the sky in public, you're no longer in private.
God clothed his creation so they wouldn't be naked. I'm going to give Him the benefit of a doubt and assume that it isn't part of his current plan for man (and children) despite what they or their parents, (absent or available) may believe.
21 posted on 07/06/2005 8:40:01 AM PDT by The Brush
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To: ahayes

Yes it is; when it is not a private, and romantic and intimate situation, and you are naked with other naked people; it shows your libido and not your mind and your heart is in control. Jeesh, talk about people who cannot control their base "desires"!


22 posted on 07/06/2005 8:40:06 AM PDT by Wuli
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To: sandbar
So if I come over to your house for tea and crumpets you wouldn't have a problem walking around serving me naked?

I wouldn't be okay with it. However, if we were both nudists/naturalists and that's how we preferred to hang out in private, that would be different.

The point I'm making is that the presence of a group of people doesn't, in of itself, make a certain location "public."

23 posted on 07/06/2005 8:40:08 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: The Brush
Once your ceiling becomes the sky, you're not in your living room anymore.

Following your logic, if someone sunbathes nude in their back yard (and nobody other than consenting people see them) they are in public.

Once you put your nakedness on display to others under the sky in public, you're no longer in private.

Why does being under the sky make something public?

24 posted on 07/06/2005 8:43:05 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: SailormanCGA72

"Family oriented nudist park"? What kind of sick freaks think this is ok?


25 posted on 07/06/2005 8:57:21 AM PDT by quiet_vet
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To: wildbill

"I'D BE UP FOR THAT!"


26 posted on 07/06/2005 8:59:04 AM PDT by RightResponse (What if the Left, just got up and .....)
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To: Wuli

Let's just say that with me at a nudist camp my husband would invariably be kicked out rapidly for "immaturity." I don't think I'd want to change that.

In my mind it's just normal. That's why practically (?) every civilization has clothes of some type.


27 posted on 07/06/2005 9:01:23 AM PDT by ahayes
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To: quiet_vet

>>>"Family oriented nudist park"? What kind of sick freaks think this is ok?>>>

Apparently Modernman does.


28 posted on 07/06/2005 9:01:54 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: sandbar; quiet_vet
"Family oriented nudist park"? What kind of sick freaks think this is ok?

If the camp is supervised and there is nothing sexual going on, how is this any different than beaches in Europe where kids (and parents) routinely run around naked?

The problem with our society is that we've sexualized kids. A naked child is no more sexual than a "naked" dog or cat.

29 posted on 07/06/2005 9:05:20 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: sandbar

Alrighty - let the personal attacks begin!

"You're different than me - you're a sick freak!!"

For the record, I must be a sick freak too. I've been on nude beaches and you can usually tell the sexually immature people by the gawking that they do. To me, the sick freaks are the ones who equate nakedness with arousal.





30 posted on 07/06/2005 9:09:59 AM PDT by Sirloin
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To: Modernman
Following your logic, if children (11-17) are naked in their backyard with other naked children present, it is acceptable. and... if parents agree it is acceptable behavior, then it is.
Naked sunbathing to me seems odd in itself. What possible benefits come from naked sunbathing other than no tan lines?And why should children (11-17) be concerned about tan lines?
What's still hanging out here unanswered is, why do you suppose God clothed his (married) creation?
31 posted on 07/06/2005 9:22:45 AM PDT by The Brush
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To: The Brush
What's still hanging out here unanswered is, why do you suppose God clothed his (married) creation?

Why do you suppose the Old Testament has any bearing on our legal code? Aren't there some pork eaters out there you could be hassling instead?

32 posted on 07/06/2005 9:26:37 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: Modernman

>>>A naked child is no more sexual than a "naked" dog or cat.>>>

Speaking as a victim of rape at the age of three, I beg to differ. Glad that YOU don't see a naked child as a naked dog or cat, unfortunately there are some who don't. While being clothed doesn't protect a child, but to flaunt it in the face is asking for trouble. IMO


33 posted on 07/06/2005 9:28:31 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: sandbar
Speaking as a victim of rape at the age of three, I beg to differ.

I'll change my statement- to a normal person, a naked child is not sexual. There are, of course, sick freaks in the world.

34 posted on 07/06/2005 9:30:43 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: Sirloin

>>>"You're different than me - you're a sick freak!!" >>>

Don't put words in quotations that I did not say.

>>>To me, the sick freaks are the ones who equate nakedness with arousal. >>>

So glad you are soooo much more advanced than I am. You must immediately move to Europe to be with your more enlightened culture. We are just too primitive to accept child/adult nudity with strangers. Poor me.


35 posted on 07/06/2005 9:30:49 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: Modernman

>>>There are, of course, sick freaks in the world>>>

EXACTLY!! Why put innocent children on display for them??

I'm not talking about a toddler running around the yard in their diaper, please understand I am not naked phobic, but 13 years old??? Come on!


36 posted on 07/06/2005 9:32:24 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: The Brush
Following your logic, if children (11-17) are naked in their backyard with other naked children present, it is acceptable. and... if parents agree it is acceptable behavior, then it is.

If all the parents involved agree and the kids are okay with it AND there is no hanky-panky going on, what's the problem?

Naked sunbathing to me seems odd in itself. What possible benefits come from naked sunbathing other than no tan lines?

Some people like to enjoy the sun and the fresh air unclothed. It's a personal preference, like enjoying vanilla ice cream over chocolate.

What's still hanging out here unanswered is, why do you suppose God clothed his (married) creation?

I don't believe the Judeo-Christian creation myth. However, nudity is not appropriate in every (or most) circumstances.

37 posted on 07/06/2005 9:34:41 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: sandbar
EXACTLY!! Why put innocent children on display for them??

Because we shouldn't allow sick freaks to dictate how the rest of us behave. If someone wants to oggle or molest a naked child at the beach, the proper response is to either remove them from the beach or arrest them.

38 posted on 07/06/2005 9:36:41 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: Modernman

>>>If someone wants to oggle or molest a naked child at the beach, the proper response is to either remove them from the beach or arrest them>>>

I'm afraid I think you live in a niave world. No, we don't lock them up, but we don't parade them for their sexual kicks either. Otherwise, why is child porn illegal?


39 posted on 07/06/2005 10:21:37 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: sandbar
Why don't they call this the "Child Sex Camp" and get it over with?

What part of "White Tail Park" didn't you understand?

40 posted on 07/06/2005 10:24:17 AM PDT by Stu Cohen (Press '1' for English)
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To: sandbar
No, we don't lock them up, but we don't parade them for their sexual kicks either. Otherwise, why is child porn illegal?

Child porn is illegal because it harms the kids involved.

41 posted on 07/06/2005 10:24:59 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: wildbill

Is it REALLY called "White TAIL Park?"


42 posted on 07/06/2005 10:26:08 AM PDT by johnb838 (I know Specter and the truth is not in him. -- Robert Bork)
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To: The Brush

I agree... I've heard the nudist's arguments, "it's normal", "it's natural", "it's healthy", "it's freeing", and I agree it's fun to go skinny dipping sometimes. I also agree that there's no need to be overly hung up about the body that God gave you.

But these nudists -- they're weird. They're NOT "normal", "natural", "healthy", or "free". They all sound a little bit like Michael Jackson making his argument about why sleeping with little boys is a good idea. Even when we're just talking about fat old people. It just doesn't make sense. There's something "queer" about it, not in the homosexual sense, but... in the old-fashioned "not quite right" sense of the word.


43 posted on 07/06/2005 10:32:03 AM PDT by johnb838 (I know Specter and the truth is not in him. -- Robert Bork)
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To: Sirloin
To me, the sick freaks are the ones who equate nakedness with arousal.

Putting aside the question of whether it really is abnormal to be aroused by the sight of the naked body of an attractive member of the opposite sex, from a purely practical point of view I think that with your definition most adolescent boys would qualify as "sick freaks."

I certainly wouldn't let my hypothetical teenage daughter go to a nudist camp with a bunch of hormonal boys, regardless of how much supervision there was.

44 posted on 07/06/2005 10:38:55 AM PDT by ahayes
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To: ahayes

Good point about adolescent kids - but I was speaking more about 30+ year old people who get aroused/uptight/freaked about the sight of a naked body. To me that indicates a certain emotional immaturity that equates shame with all things naked.


45 posted on 07/06/2005 11:06:27 AM PDT by Sirloin
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To: Modernman

>>>Child porn is illegal because it harms the kids involved.

Really? How does it harm a child to take innocent photographs of a naked child in all it's beauty? If all they are doing is taking photographs? (of course I'm being sarcastic) Child porn isn't just child sex photos, but naked photos of children.

See my point?


46 posted on 07/06/2005 11:29:27 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: sandbar
Really? How does it harm a child to take innocent photographs of a naked child in all it's beauty?

Legally speaking, nude pictures of kids aren't per se kiddie porn. There needs to be a sexual aspect.

Child porn isn't just child sex photos, but naked photos of children.

Legally speaking? No. Otherwise, anyone who ever took a picture of their toddler in the bathtub would be a child pornographer.

47 posted on 07/06/2005 11:32:43 AM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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To: snarks_when_bored

LOL!!!

White Tail Park - now with special tanning your white tail section.


48 posted on 07/06/2005 11:34:05 AM PDT by Dashing Dasher (I can resist everything except temptation. --Oscar Wilde.)
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To: Modernman

>>>Legally speaking? No. Otherwise, anyone who ever took a picture of their toddler in the bathtub would be a child pornographer.>>>

Ask the woman who was arrested for taking photo's of her daughter (three years old) in the bathtub.


49 posted on 07/06/2005 12:41:30 PM PDT by sandbar
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To: sandbar
Ask the woman who was arrested for taking photo's of her daughter (three years old) in the bathtub.

People get arrested for lots of things. That doesn't mean the state can make the charges stick.

50 posted on 07/06/2005 12:46:56 PM PDT by Modernman ("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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