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Islam does incubate terrorism
Telegraph ^ | July 12th , 05 | Mark Steyn

Posted on 07/12/2005 2:00:10 PM PDT by F14 Pilot

'There are no Muslim terrorists. There are terrorists," Father Paul Hawkins of St Pancras parish church told his congregation on Sunday. "The people who carried out these attacks are victims of a false religion, be it false Christianity or false Islam."

Oh, dear. "Britain can take it" (as they said in the Blitz): that's never been in doubt. The question is whether Britain can still dish it out. When events such as last Thursday's occur, two things happen, usually within hours if not minutes: first, spokespersons for Islamic lobby groups issue warnings about an imminent backlash against Muslims.

In fairness to British organisations, I believe they were beaten to the punch by the head of the Canadian Islamic Congress whose instant response to the London bombings was to issue a statement calling for prayers that "Canadian Muslims will not pay a price for being found guilty by association".

In most circumstances it would be regarded as appallingly bad taste to deflect attention from an actual "hate crime" by scaremongering about a non-existent one. But it seems the real tragedy of every act of "intolerance" by Islamist bigots is that it might hypothetically provoke even more intolerance from us irredeemable white imperialist racists. My colleague Peter Simple must surely marvel at how the identity-group grievance industry has effortlessly diversified into pre-emptively complaining about acts of prejudice that have not yet occurred.

Among those of us who aren't Muslim, meanwhile, there's a stampede to be first to the microphone to say that "of course" we all know that "the vast majority of Muslims" are not terrorists but law-abiding peace-loving people who share our revulsion at these appalling events, etc.

Mr Blair won that contest on Thursday, followed closely by Brian Paddick and full supporting cast. If "of course" Mr Blair and Mr Paddick and the rest do indeed know that "the vast majority of Muslims" do not favour terrorism, is that because they've run the numbers and have a ballpark figure on the very very very slim minority of Muslims who do? And, if so, what is it? 0.02 per cent? Or two per cent? Or 20 per cent?

And, if they haven't run the numbers, why do they claim to speak with authority on this matter? If it were just a question of rhetorical sensitivity, I'd be happy to go along with Mr Paddick's multiculti pap and insist that "Islam and terrorism don't go together" - events in Beslan, Bali, Israel, Nigeria, Kashmir, etc, notwithstanding. But the danger in separating "Islam" from "terrorism" is that it leads the control-freaks of the nanny state into thinking that "terrorism" is something that can be dealt with by border security, ID cards, retinal scans, metal detectors. It can't.

Terrorism ends when the broader culture refuses to tolerate it. There would be few if any suicide bombers in the Middle East if "martyrdom" were not glorified by imams and politicians, if pictures of local "martyrs" were not proudly displayed in West Bank grocery stores, if Muslim banks did not offer special "martyrdom" accounts to the relicts thereof, if schools did not run essay competitions on "Why I want to grow up to be a martyr".

At this point, many readers will be indignantly protesting that this is all the fault of Israeli "occupation", but how does that explain suicide bombings in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where there's not a Zionist oppressor for hundreds of miles? Islam has become the world's pre-eminent incubator of terrorism at its most depraved. Indeed, so far London has experienced only the lighter items on the bill of fare - random bombing of public transport rather than decapitation, child sacrifice and schoolhouse massacres.

Most of us instinctively understand that when a senior Metropolitan Police figure says bullishly that "Islam and terrorism don't go together", he's talking drivel.

Many of us excuse it on the grounds that, well, golly, it must be a bit embarrassing to be a Muslim on days like last Thursday and it doesn't do any harm to cheer 'em up a bit with some harmless feel-good blather. But is this so?

Why are we surprised that "Muslim moderates" rarely speak out against the evil committed by their co-religionists when the likes of Mr Paddick keep assuring us there's no problem? It requires great courage to be a dissenting Muslim in communities dominated by heavy-handed imams and lobby groups that function effectively as thought-police.

Yet all you hear from Mr Paddick is: "Move along, folks, there's nothing to see here." This is the same approach, incidentally, that the authorities took in their long refusal to investigate seriously the 120 or so "honour killings" among British Muslims.

Just as the police did poor Muslim girls no favours by their excessive cultural sensitivity, so they're now doing the broader Muslim community no favours. The Blair-Paddick strategy only provides a slathering of mindless multiculti fudge topping over the many layers of constraint that prevent Islam beginning an honest conversation with itself.

Unlike Malaya or the Mau-Mau or the IRA, this is a global counter-terrorism operation across widely differing terrain, geographical and psychological. We need to be able to kill, constrain, coerce or coax as appropriate.

Kill terrorists when the opportunity presents itself, as 1,200 "insurgents" were said to have been killed in one recent engagement on the Syria/Iraq border the other day. Constrain the ideology behind Thursday's bombing by outlawing Saudi funding of British mosques and other institutions. Coerce our more laggardly allies like General Musharraf into shutting down his section of the Saudi-Pakistani-Londonistan Wahhabist pipeline.

But the coaxing is what counts - wooing moderate Muslims into reclaiming their religion. We can take steps to prevent Islamic terrorists killing us, most of the time. But Islamic terrorists will only stop trying to kill us when their culture reviles them rather than celebrates them.

There are signs in the last week's Muslim newspapers, in London and abroad, that some eminent voices are beginning to speak out. At such a moment, Britain should be on the side of free speech and open debate. Instead, the state is attempting to steamroller through a grotesque law at the behest of already unduly influential Islamic lobby groups. One of its principal effects will be to inhibit Muslim reformers. Shame on us for championing Islamic thought-police over Western liberty.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bigots; bomb; british; bush; eu; false; iraq; islam; liberal; liberty; london; majority; mideast; muslim; paddick; radical; reformers; terror; terrorism; uk; usa; wahabbiapologists; western

1 posted on 07/12/2005 2:00:17 PM PDT by F14 Pilot
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To: Valin; AdmSmith; nuconvert; warsaw44; parisa; YaYa123; GVgirl

Thought you might be interested!


2 posted on 07/12/2005 2:01:10 PM PDT by F14 Pilot (Democracy is a process not a product)
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To: F14 Pilot

Why is it that we have not heard from one Muslim cleric in the USA, not one Muslim organization in the USA, not one Muslim family in the USA denouncing these terrorist acts in London or against our soldiers and the Iraqi people. Until that happens, in my opinion, then Muslims in our country are condoning these acts of violence.

This is a time for good Muslim people to come forth and denounce these acts.

nick


3 posted on 07/12/2005 2:03:44 PM PDT by nikos1121
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To: F14 Pilot

Yes, Mark Steyn is always spot on the money. Thanks for posting this.


4 posted on 07/12/2005 2:04:33 PM PDT by bboop
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To: F14 Pilot
All you need to know about Islam:


5 posted on 07/12/2005 2:05:18 PM PDT by FormerACLUmember (Honoring Saint Jude's assistance every day.)
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To: F14 Pilot

The poor deluded man.


6 posted on 07/12/2005 2:05:19 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: Convert from ECUSA

Ping!


7 posted on 07/12/2005 2:05:33 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - Tolkien)
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To: nikos1121

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/07/12/worldviews.DTL

http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-07-07-voa63.cfm

US Muslim Groups Condemn London Attacks

By VOA News
07 July 2005

U.S.-based Muslim groups have joined governments and organizations around the world in condemning Thursday's deadly bombings in London.

In a statement, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations condemned the attacks as "barbaric crimes," which it said "can never be justified or excused."

The group has said in the past that those who commit acts of terror in the name of Islam are betraying that religion's values.

In a separate statement, the Muslim Public Affairs Council extended condolences to the families of the victims and to the British people. It called the bombings an "attack against humanity."


8 posted on 07/12/2005 2:05:52 PM PDT by F14 Pilot (Democracy is a process not a product)
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To: F14 Pilot
'There are no Muslim terrorists. There are terrorists," Father Paul Hawkins of St Pancras parish church told his congregation on Sunday. "The people who carried out these attacks are victims of a false religion, be it false Christianity or false Islam."

Criky. I am sure getting tired of bozos letting Islam off the hook by including Christianity in their condemnations. An extremist Christian might give away all their possessions and live their life in servant paradigm...an extremist muslim believes in killing any non-muslim in an effort to bring the world under subjugation to Islam. The terrors WERE muslim terrorists even if this guy doesn't have the moral courage to say so.

9 posted on 07/12/2005 2:06:53 PM PDT by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
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To: F14 Pilot

islam IS HATE!


10 posted on 07/12/2005 2:09:58 PM PDT by porkchops 4 mahound (islam IS the ENEMY of ALL Non-islamic peoples.)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: F14 Pilot

Where have these people been for the past three years? Frankly, I'm not impressed. I don't see letters to the editor colums from them or any organized statements that are reported in the press. I don't see demostrations like we saw from the young Lebanonese in major cities. There in this country reaping the benefits of our system yet not lifting a finger to help their people back home. Am I cynical? Yes. Those soldiers over there are like our family. Any person in this country should feel the same way.

Like I said above. I'm not impressed by these token gestures after London.

nick


12 posted on 07/12/2005 2:16:10 PM PDT by nikos1121
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To: F14 Pilot

Even Steyn hopes against all hope that there are "moderate Muslims". But where? And what else can we do except to continue to fool ourselves? Ship them all out to where they came from, when there are today thousands of mosques built in formerly Christian lands, allowed there by the elites running the secularist states who have looked at all religion as a benign 'opium of the masses'. When many (of the muzzlelimb fanatics) are citizens, unassimilated, of the Western countries? It'll take a revolution of the masses against the elites in their safe from terror academic, political and entertainment world cocoons. Rodeo Drive and the Presidents' alma matter campuses are still safe, aren't they? Who'd ever think of bombing country clubs or the Hamptons?


13 posted on 07/12/2005 2:16:38 PM PDT by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything!")
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To: F14 Pilot

Daniel Pipes usefully estimates the Radical Islamicist population at 10-15% of Muslims.

While that's a relatively small minority, it is still more than ten million people who want to kill you or die trying.


14 posted on 07/12/2005 2:22:32 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie
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To: nikos1121
>"This is a time for good Muslim people to come forth and denounce these acts. "

Good moooslimes tell no tales!!!!
The only good mooslime is a ????

Kill A Commie For Mommie
Seven Dead Monkeys Page O Tunes

15 posted on 07/12/2005 2:23:00 PM PDT by rawcatslyentist ("If it's brown, drink it down. If it's black send it back." Homer's guide to drinking in Springfield)
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To: Brad Cloven

Well, we need to encourage the rest of the Muslim community to fight them!


16 posted on 07/12/2005 2:24:16 PM PDT by F14 Pilot (Democracy is a process not a product)
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To: F14 Pilot
"But the coaxing is what counts - wooing moderate Muslims into reclaiming their religion. We can take steps to prevent Islamic terrorists killing us, most of the time. But Islamic terrorists will only stop trying to kill us when their culture reviles them rather than celebrates them."

OTOH, we are about one WMD away from the public requiring governments to:

"Kill them all and let Allah sort them out."

A nuke in Paris, Tel Aviv, Washington, or London would require the immediate overthrow / decimation of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia. Possibly Pakistan if provenance were suggestive.

17 posted on 07/12/2005 2:26:15 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie
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To: F14 Pilot
"Well, we need to encourage the rest of the Muslim community to fight them!"

We have encouraged them for four years, and virtually nothing has happened.

Where are the mass arrests of the thousand of Islamofascists in Britain? Oh, that's right, they never happen because "moderate muslims" don't turn in the radicals. Wishful thinking and another dozen "Pretty Please" requests don't seem promising.

I recommend spies, bugs, dirty police work and armies as necessary.

18 posted on 07/12/2005 2:30:12 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie
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To: nikos1121

>>
This is a time for good Muslim people to come forth and denounce these acts.
<<

But they did.

Both of them.


19 posted on 07/12/2005 2:31:22 PM PDT by noblejones
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To: F14 Pilot
Why would ANYONE believe ANYTHING a MUSLIM has to say. It is from their OWN teachings that lying to further the jihad is perfectly acceptable. They are even allowed to make TREATIES and BREAK them when they are ready to attack.

HELLO.... IS ANYONE AWAKE OUT THERE.

20 posted on 07/12/2005 2:31:31 PM PDT by marty60
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To: Brad Cloven

Four years?

You gotta be kidding me...

Give it Forty years and you may see the result


21 posted on 07/12/2005 2:32:30 PM PDT by F14 Pilot (Democracy is a process not a product)
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To: F14 Pilot

In the last 2000 years, Jewish and Christian principles, Greek ideals and Roman organization and law created western civilization. In the last 800 years, following a promising if sanguinary begining, Islam has created the suicide bomber. There is nothing else it has to show except abject poverty, both material and spiritual and tyranny. It is not a religion as we understand it, it is a suicide pact with an unwilling partner.


22 posted on 07/12/2005 2:39:32 PM PDT by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopeckne is walking around free)
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To: muir_redwoods

WRONG!

Did you forget Medieval Times?

Did you forget what Church did to Galileo or Giordano Bruno?


23 posted on 07/12/2005 2:40:50 PM PDT by F14 Pilot (Democracy is a process not a product)
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To: nikos1121

This is a time for good Muslim people to come forth and denounce these acts.<<<

There must first be "good muslim people" to hear your request /s.


24 posted on 07/12/2005 2:44:51 PM PDT by Iron Matron (Illegals should be Caught and Deported; not Released and Supported!)
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To: F14 Pilot; patent; Salvation; NYer

SC

Home

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Assistance Needed



Seattle Catholic
A Journal of Catholic News and Views
18 Jan 2002
Muslim Persecution of Catholics

The violence perpetuated by the "religion of peace"

As the Catholic Church finds new ways to approach the issue of "world peace", it is faced with an unfortunate reality: currently no religious group in the world is subjected to more violence and persecution than Christians. While the Church has been instrumental in eliminating the "discrimination" towards other religions in formerly Catholic countries, not all of those other religions have followed suit.

In particular, the cult of Islam which is now referred to by confused Catholics as a "religion of peace", has shown little sign of letting up on its fourteen-hundred year campaign to eliminate Christianity. While the Pope welcomed the construction of a mosque in Rome almost completely financed by Saudi royalty, the construction of a Catholic Church in Saudi Arabia is strictly forbidden. Measures Catholic nations used to take to prevent the spread of error are subjected to the harsh condemnation of both secular revisionists and modern Catholics alike. But those same tactics employed in the Arabian counties of the Middle East are ignored out of a relativist sense of "tolerance".

The Church has decided to stop fighting its enemies in the interests of "religious liberty" and "dialogue", but its enemies have made no such concession:

The Church has chosen the road of negotiation and is "leading" by example, but such tactics appear to deny a fundamental and obvious truth not lost on the over one billion Muslims: the opposite of truth is error and error has no rights. Error is not something to be flattered, negotiated with, tolerated or accepted. It is offense to God and man and must be eliminated through conversion. The Muslims beliefs are false but their grasp of such a simple concept is irrefutable.

The relativism that considers all religions more or less good is a product of man, not God. The followers of Mohammed are right to completely reject the "enlightened" ideas of modern philosophy as every pre-Vatican II Pope did. Unless the Catholic Church is able to reclaim this truth for itself, it will find itself in an impossible position: having to defend itself from an enemy which Catholics were raised to believe is an innocent and peaceful ally.

There are many examples of persecution of Catholics at the hand of Muslims. Three areas of the world will be examined here.

Pakistan

Recently, a highly-publicized recent massacre in a Pakistani Catholic Church has caused many local Catholics to stay home on Sundays rather than risk a repeat of such a violent attack. Christians comprise less than 3% of the almost exclusively Muslim population of Pakistan.

On October 26, Pakistani newspapers printed the al-Qaeda demand for the death of two Christians in retaliation for every Muslim killed in the U.S. military strikes on Afghanistan. Two days later, masked gunmen opened fire on in a Church in Bahawalpur, putting 142 bullets into the walls, windows and altar and killing fifteen:

The investigation into the affair was big on political statements but lacking on effort: True to their words, the Bahawalpur attacks really were "just the beginning". Nine days, later another shooting occurred: and two days after that: Not only did these Muslim terrorists fail to get the Pope's message that "authentic" Islam is a "religion of peace", but they completely missed President Bush's insistence that "this is not a holy war".

Indonesia

Over the past two years, Muslim extremists have been waging a Jihad against Christians in the Moluccas region of Indonesia, bombing churches, burning homes and killing over 9,000 people.

On November 1st, militant forces trampled through the village of Waimulang, torching 350 homes and displacing over 1,000 people.6

On November 20th, nine Christians merchants were shot down in their boat while bringing goods to the shore.7

On November 26th, Muslim militants fought to overtake a Catholic educational compound and disabled children's center (!) so as to make it their military base:

Meanwhile, in the Sulawesi region of Indonesia, over 50,000 Christians are been forced to flee their homes to escape the violent Muslim militia. On December 20th, a peace agreement was signed between Muslim and Christian leaders, putting an end to the violence for almost two weeks. On January 1st, four churches were bombed.10

To make matters even worse, the Sulawesi region has also been host to al-Qaeda terrorist camps:

Given the past track record of the Indonesian government and army with regards to Christians, the efforts to stop the violence have been understandably slow. In December of 1975, the Indonesian army invaded the small Catholic country of East Timor beginning a bloody twenty-five year occupation that ended in a post-election slaughter of thousands. At the time of their withdrawal in 1999, the Indonesian army had killed an estimated 200,000 Timorese (one-third of the original population) and still detains an estimated 100,000 as political prisoners.12

Sudan

In the northern states of Sudan, the Muslim majority has been working to implement the Muslim Sharia law which includes such things as stoning for adultery, the illegality of any Christian worship or "proselytism" and the relegation of women to second-class citizens.

Christians have been protesting against the imposition of these laws and accompanying "Islamization" of the country by the Khartoum government, but have faced increasing violence. Rather than risk having their children seized and forced into slavery, many have fled to the predominately Christian southern states, which are receiving more refugees than they can handle:

With the body count now exceeding 2 million, the Sudanese civil war has been the bloodiest Africa has seen in decades.

In a supposed exchange for information on the terrorist attacks, the U.S. has removed obstacles to the lifting of UN sanctions — a move which seems to reward the oppressive Khartoum government. An open letter to the president signed by dozens of religious leaders and human rights activists rightfully criticized the move:

This was certainly a strange reward, but merely a prelude of the Bush Jr. administration's "policy" on China's human rights record. It's also a little ironic considering the ties between Sudan and bin Laden. According to Bishop Cesare Mazzolari of southern Sudan: The spread of Islam in the African nations is cause for great concern: Such a pattern has been more often the rule than the exception whenever the Muslim population becomes the majority. With Western European birthrates plummeting and the Muslim population and immigration surging without limits, it is not unthinkable to see the same "pattern" repeat itself in the heart of Western Civilization.

Conclusion

Father Vincent Serralda, a French priest who lived among Muslims in North Africa for fifty years, prepared a study analyzing the Koran and warning French families of the danger of Islam. He wrote in the preface:

Faced with such overwhelming evidence of the violent nature of Islam, both historically and throughout the modern world, how is it possible to maintain that Islam is a "peaceful" religion? While the Church is held responsible for launching the Crusades, Islam is not held accountable for the Turks' acts of terrorism which prompted them. The same double-standard exists today. Militant Muslims murdering millions of Christians in the name of their religion is not seen as any sort of problem with the false religion of Islam, but the misguided actions of a few radicals who misunderstand the "true" and "authentic" Islam.

And what is "authentic" Islam? One need look no further than the beliefs of their human founder himself:

Our Lady of Victory, Pray for Us.

Peter W. Miller
Seattle, WA
1/18/2002

FOOTNOTES:
1 From the Interventionis in scriptis on 13 October 1999 of His Eminence Mgr Giuseppe Germano Bernardini, OFM, Archbishop of Smyrna, at the Synod of European Bishops
2 ZENIT, "Christians in Pakistan Fear a 'Christmas Bloodbath'" (12/5/2001)
3 Ibid.
4 Ibid.
5 Ibid.
6 FIDES, "New Attacks by Muslim Extremists on Christians in Indonesia" (11/9/2001)
7 ZENIT, "9 Christians Shot Dead in Indonesia" (1/12/2001)
8 CWNews, "Indonesian Catholics Under Siege by Jihad Forces" (11/26/2001)
9 ZENIT, "Indonesian Christians Suffering New Attacks" (12/8/2001)
10 ZENIT, "4 Churches Bombed in Indonesia" (1/2/2002)
11 CWNews, "Indonesia says al-Qaeda Set Up Camps in Sulawesi" (12/13/2001)
12 Source: East Timor Action Network
13 FIDES, "Thousands Face Death in Sudan for Lack of Water" (1/11/2002)
14 ZENIT, "Letter to Bush Regarding Rapprochment with Sudan" (11/20/2001)
15 ZENIT, "Sudan Supports Terrorism, Bishop of Rumbek Says" (11/25/2001)
16 J. Burger, "Sudan's Christians Fight for Survival" National Catholic Register (12/2/2001)
17 Fr. J. Emily, "September 11 and the True Face of Islam" (2001)
18 Catholic Encyclopedia, "Mohammed and Mohammedanism" (1911)


25 posted on 07/12/2005 2:47:31 PM PDT by XR7
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To: marty60
I work with horses and dogs every day. They are always honest. Do you know why? It's because they can't talk, they can't use a voice to deceive you. People use their words to deceive each and every day. If you want to know what is true, turn off the sound and watch what they do.
Muslims flew airliners into the world trade center.
Muslims murdered many in the Madrid bombings.
Muslims murdered many in the London bombings.
All of these terrorists/mass murderers were Muslim, every one professed to believe in the ways of Islam.
When they open their mouths to tell you that these aren't Muslim terrorists call them on it and explain what the facts are before they try and twist the truth and declare that Islam is innocent. Islam is as guilty as it can be. Islam is a religion of hate and of tyranny. They want to force all of the world, by using the murder of innocent women and children, into living by one standard, the standard of the "Satanic Koran."
By the way, this is nothing new. The Islamic world has been imposing their Idol worship on people by force for centuries. Read a little history and learn the historical truth of how Muslims have murder millions to impose their religion on others. History also shows that the only way to stop this cancerous imposition on world society is to smash them with vastly superior military force repeatedly until they decide to retreat into their mud huts and lick their wounds for a century or two.From reading factual history we know how to stop this Islamic fungus. Lets get started. Lock and load and make them glow.....
26 posted on 07/12/2005 2:52:08 PM PDT by oldenuff2no (Proud Nam Vet)
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To: F14 Pilot

U.S.-based Muslim groups have joined governments and organizations around the world in condemning Thursday's deadly bombings in London<<<<

Yeah, right. Sure. Uh huh.

This is done to quell the fears of muslimes now residing in the USA, the ones who think we might commit hate crimes againts those who love the pedophile mohammed and his anti-Christian non-god allah.

In short, statements from muslims decrying terrorists acts is simply "Covering Muslime ASSsets".

I will never believe differently. Muslimes are Christian hating terrorists who wish to destroy us. God does not require me to understand the godless and terrorists, nor does He require me to love,like, and especially trust non-Christaians.


27 posted on 07/12/2005 2:52:42 PM PDT by Iron Matron (Illegals should be Caught and Deported; not Released and Supported!)
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To: F14 Pilot
With so many "strong Muslim communities" littering England's landscape, I think they're referring to this bombing as a "crime scene" to prevent a civil war or sorts. They feel they can't publicly villify Islam in general for this reason, but if Western nations continue to treat these bloody acts of war on our soil by Islamic infiltrators as 'crimes', we are in for a very long and protracted period of bloodshed and terrorism.

Hunting down the individual terrorists as each incident occurs and perhaps uncovering a terror cell in the process is the long road to victory. The shorter and safer road would be to have no "strong Muslim communities" in their midst in the first place. You don't fight cancer one tumor at a time, waiting for the next one send you to the hospital before treating it. You attack the whole cancer with radiation or chemo and try to get rid of it once and for all. God have mercy on our children and grandchildren who are told by our governments that Muslims are a 'peaceful people', and we only need to worry a few bad apples.

It only took nineteen "bad apples" to kill 3,000 of our people a few years ago, wound thousands more, and wreak so much havoc on our economy that we're still trying to recover from it.

28 posted on 07/12/2005 2:57:15 PM PDT by TheCrusader (("the frenzy of the Mohammedans has devastated the churches of God" Pope Urban II)
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To: F14 Pilot

The Muslim community will back the stronger horse.

If Christians are like that ridiculous wimp Steyn quoted, then why should Muslims do their fighting for them ? Why should they back losers ?


29 posted on 07/12/2005 3:01:28 PM PDT by Sam the Sham
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To: oldenuff2no
These Pc, spineless , mealymouth politcos are going toget us killed, and the Muslims just love them. They have their mo, and as soon as they attack they run to the nearest mic and shout, don't hurt us poor peaceful muslims.

Islam is nothing more than a cult of death and destruction, and enslavement. Period.

30 posted on 07/12/2005 3:05:01 PM PDT by marty60
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To: F14 Pilot
"WRONG!

Did you forget Medieval Times?

Did you forget what Church did to Galileo or Giordano Bruno?"

Interesting, if disconnected take on my comment. I did not forget anything the Church did and I didn't forget the slaughter attributed to the Israelites in the Old Testament nor the destruction of other people by the Roman Empire. I don't excuse those things. What I said was, that all of those influences built western civilization, warts and all. Islam has nothing but destruction in the last 800 years. The west has republican government, democracy, jury trials, constitutional law and most of the Nobel prizes, worthwhile art, music and literature and technology, modern medicine, space exploration and agricultural science that feeds the world. Islam has the Friday afternoon group hate.

31 posted on 07/12/2005 3:06:46 PM PDT by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopeckne is walking around free)
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To: F14 Pilot

Islam can't be reformed for one simple reason.

The number one rule in Islam is that there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet.

Therefore the life of Muhammad is and always will be the definition of a Muslim, and the shining example of how to think and act.

And that folks is the problem us infidels will always have to deal with.


32 posted on 07/12/2005 3:50:00 PM PDT by OK
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To: F14 Pilot
"Did you forget what Church did to Galileo or Giordano Bruno?

I remember what the Church did, and what the revisionists did to the truth.

Galileo, educated by Catholic monks, and in science at Piza University by Catholic science professors, sought to prove that great authorities like Aristotle were wrong about the prevailing belief that the earth was still, and the universe rotated around it. In those days, Aristotle was deemed the final say on these matters, and the Bible seemed to prove this by saying the "earth was God's footstool".

But Galileo was not content to shatter prevailing beliefs with science, he often ridiculed and made sport of his opponents with pen and mouth, making many enemies for himself. He thrived on being controversial and confounding other scholars.

Galileo's theory on heliocentricity was originally put forth by Nicholas Copernicus. Copernicus' work, "De Revolutionibus orblure coelestium", was published at the solicitation of two distinguished churchmen, Cardinal Schömberg and Tiedemann Giese, Bishop of Culm. It was dedicated by permission of Pope Paul III in order that it would be protected from the attacks of the "mathematicians". Hence before Galileo's own work on heliocentricity, the Church had already endorsed the publishing of this proposition.

After Galileo's discovery, he went to Rome to be celebrated for it, and was accepted with warmth and admiration by Clergy and laymen. In fact, he set up his telescope to view sunspots in the Quirinal Garden belonging to Cardinal Bandim.

All along, however, though Galileo's science was right, he 'proof' was in error. Scientists to this day understand his proposition to be right, but his methods of 'proof' to be in error. Great minds of Galileo's time, like Bacon, strongly disagreed with heliocentricity, claiming (rightly) that Galileo's 'proofs' were lacking in good science. A great many other scientists of the times also thought the Copernicus/Galileo heliocentricity proposition was in error. Because the Lutheran revolt was taking place at nearly the same time, and Holy Scripture was being revised and understood differently by many, and because the prevailing belief by scientists of the times was against heliocentricity, Galileo's found himself embroiled in deep controversy, and was thought to be against the Bible's teachings.

More than four years after Galileo's triumph in Rome, the Inquisition asked him to recant his proposition, based on the fact it could not be proved, and that it lead to heretical beliefs about the Bible. Galileo quickly agreed to recant. The Church did allow Galileo to publish his heliocentricity, but only as theory, and not as scientific "fact". As I said earlier, even today's scientists agree that Galileo's supporting evidence was erroneous, though his theory was correct.

What was objected to mainly was Galileo's insistence that he was right, and that the traditional understanding of Scripture was wrong. The most influential Cardinal in the Church at the time, Cardinal Bellarmine, practically begged Galileo to write and publish his theories, but only to clearly state that no absolute proof yet exists. He even went so far as to write to Galileo:

"I say that if a real proof be found that the sun is fixed and does not revolve round the earth, but the earth round the sun, then it will be necessary, very carefully, to proceed to the explanation of the passages of Scripture which appear to be contrary, and we should rather say that we have misunderstood these than pronounce that to be false which is demonstrated".

Galileo, however, broke his promise and continued to write his heliocentricity as fact, and he continued to attack his learned adversaries with venom. He also continued to vascillate between recanting and then believing heliocentricity as fact. Eventually this did lead the Inquisition to "imprison" Galileo at the end of his life, and his "prison" was, as his Protestant biographer von Gebler wrote:

"One glance at the truest historical source for the famous trial, would convince any one that Galileo spent altogether twenty-two days in the buildings of the Holy Office (i.e. the Inquisition), and even then not in a prison cell with barred windows, but in the handsome and commodious apartment of an official of the Inquisition."

For the rest of his life, he was allowed to use as his 'places of confinement' the houses of friends, always comfortable and usually luxurious.

I hope this little reply clears up the ridiculous lies and distortions that are, unfortunately, still believed to this day.

33 posted on 07/12/2005 3:58:46 PM PDT by TheCrusader (("the frenzy of the Mohammedans has devastated the churches of God" Pope Urban II)
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To: XR7; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Thanks for the ping! The post, albeit 3 years old, deserves its own thread.


Smoke fills the air after Assyrian church bombing

Description: Half an hour after the car bomb outside the Armenian church exploded, another car bomb exploded outside an Assyrian church where worship was in session.
Location: Baghdad, Iraq
Date: August 1, 2004

BAGHDAD/MOSUL: Car bombs exploded outside at least five Christian churches in Iraq on Sunday, killing more than a dozen people and wounding many more in an apparently coordinated attack timed to coincide with evening prayers.
15 dead in Baghdad, Mosul church blasts


A church in Mosul burns after being attacked by insurgents

Militants stormed an Armenian Catholic and Chaldean church in Mosul on Tuesday, forcing the congregations to leave before setting off bombs inside.

Attacks targeting Iraq's Christian minority have become more frequent.
Pope condemns Iraq church attacks

The Christian minorities in Iraq today are among the oldest in Christendom. They make up about 6% of the population numbering fewer than one million out of a population of 17 million.


CHALDEAN CHURCH AL TAHERA IN MOSUL, IRAQ - Before it was bombed!

* * * * *

Islam does not recognize human or civil rights, only religious rights as set forth in its foundation documents which place Muslims in a dominant position in society and all others below that. All others enjoy whatever may be accorded them by way of privilege and at the sufferance of the Muslims and their leaders. This arrangement is sanctioned by religion, law and custom. The Christian populations of the Middle East, once dominant, have either vanished altogether or have been reduced to small minorities by forced conversions, persecutions and emigration. In recent decades the Christian communities in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East have been eroding at an accelerating rate through emigration due to increased pressure from militant Islam. Europe, North America and Australia have all experienced increased immigration by Middle Eastern Christians seeking to escape discrimination and persecution at the hands of their Muslim neighbors. In the United States about 74% of the Arabs are Christians and the remainder Muslims. If current trends continue, the remnants of the ancient Christian Churches in Iraq and the Middle East will vanish. No longer will the chants of the ancient liturgies be heard. Then the wail of the muezzin will sound from the towers of the desecrated churches. Thus the final solution to the Christian presence in the Middle East will be achieved.
THE CHALDEAN CHURCH THE CHRISTIANS IN IRAQ

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


Many Catholics are not aware that the Church is both Western and Eastern. The Patriarchs and Bishops seen in this picture come from some of the 22 different Catholic Rites, including Byzantine, Armenian, Coptic, Chaldean, Melkite, Maronite, Ukrainian, and Ruthenian. A Roman Catholic may attend Mass at any of the Eastern Catholic Churches and fulfill their Sunday obligation.

Eastern Catholic Ping List
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

You can learn more about the 22 different liturgies at this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

34 posted on 07/12/2005 4:16:33 PM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be here in a little bit.


35 posted on 07/12/2005 4:19:35 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: XR7

BUMP


36 posted on 07/12/2005 4:51:19 PM PDT by visualops (www.visualops.com)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

..........................................

37 posted on 07/12/2005 5:04:52 PM PDT by SJackson (On the second try, I got that jug off, but then I had a bear tied to a tree)
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To: GipperGal; Patrick_k; lebinmtl
GG .... cherish your sacred Maronite heritage! Help it to blossom and grow outside of Lebanon. If Islam continues on its course of destruction, the christians throughout the Middle East will flee, leaving nothing behind but memories. The Eastern Catholic Churches may soon disappear entirely from the Middle East. Plant the seeds and nourish them here in the US.


HIS BEATITUDE MAR NASRALLAH BOUTROS CARDINAL SFEIR.
MARONITE PATRIARCH OF ANTIOCH AND ALL THE EAST
IN A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH
March 2005

38 posted on 07/12/2005 5:13:28 PM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: F14 Pilot

Oh, please, Galileo lived peacefully in apartments at the Vatican itself. Some persecution.


39 posted on 07/12/2005 5:43:21 PM PDT by livius
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To: FormerACLUmember

Ping


40 posted on 07/12/2005 5:45:20 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: F14 Pilot
Islam does incubate terrorism

"I'm glad you're here to tell us these things!"

41 posted on 07/12/2005 5:46:07 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (The plan was simple, like my brother-in-law Phil. But unlike Phil, this plan just might work.)
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To: NYer
GG .... cherish your sacred Maronite heritage! Help it to blossom and grow outside of Lebanon.

Thank you, friend. And bless you. We Maronites (by "we" I mean you too) are a strong and proud folk. We ain't going nowhere.

42 posted on 07/12/2005 7:47:17 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: nikos1121

Where have these people been for the past three years?

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/site/wrappers/splash.asp

http://www.muslimsforbush.com/index.html

http://www.muslimsforbush.com/index.html


43 posted on 07/12/2005 8:57:16 PM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: hugoball; Alouette; SJackson; dennisw; sheik yerbouty; Slings and Arrows; Lijahsbubbe; aculeus; ...
The first thing a Muslim does after one of their co-religionists commits some mass murder or another around the world is to deny that Islam supports it. Then the say that it is important not to think that all Muslims are like this. Next they point out the 4 or 5 same examples where "Christians" allegedly did something similar--usually wildly inaccurate and untrue, and follow this up with a denouncement of the "occupation" of Palestine. After these apologies and misdirections, the Muslim community starts looking for instances where they were insulted or their mosque was spray-painted and cite these as instances of brutality and hate crimes against them. Lastly, they insist that any action against Islam would be an attack on the very social fabric of the West itself, and a strong violation of all of our constitutional freedoms. And the media and the morons in academia repeat all this like a mantra.

You should also mention that all of this victimhood generates feelings of desperation, rage, and retaliation, at which point certain of them blow up Jews and/or oppressive Zionist-controlled entities, and then the cycle begins anew from the beginning of your post.

44 posted on 07/12/2005 9:08:23 PM PDT by Thinkin' Gal
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To: Thinkin' Gal

Islam is, as Islam does. "By their fruits ye shall know them">


45 posted on 07/12/2005 10:13:40 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
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To: Iron Matron

I'm beginning to think that there are none...


46 posted on 07/13/2005 7:17:07 AM PDT by nikos1121
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To: Bombardier

Ping!


47 posted on 07/13/2005 9:22:14 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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To: Pyro7480
"'There are no Muslim terrorists. There are terrorists," Father Paul Hawkins of St Pancras parish church told his congregation on Sunday. "The people who carried out these attacks are victims of a false religion, be it false Christianity or false Islam."


48 posted on 07/13/2005 9:26:06 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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