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NYers to NYPD: 'I Do Not Consent to Being Searched'
The Village Voice ^ | July 21st, 200 | by Chisun Lee

Posted on 07/22/2005 11:06:07 AM PDT by BigFinn


Spend $16.99 so you can wear this to your grave

Reacting to the NYPD's announcement Thursday afternoon that police would randomly—but routinely—search the bags of commuters, one concerned New Yorker quickly created a way for civil libertarians to make their views black-and-white. In a few outraged moments, local immigrant rights activist Tony Lu designed t-shirts bearing the text, "i do not consent to being searched." The minimalist protest-wear can be purchased here, in various styles and sizes. (Lu will not get a cut. The shirts' manufacture, sale, and shipment, will be handled by the online retailer. Lu encourages budget-conscious New Yorkers to make their own and wear them everywhere.)

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly had announced the legally obvious—that New Yorkers are free to decline a search and "turn around and leave." But Lu, who is a lawyer at Urban Justice Center, warned that even well-intentioned cops could interpret people's natural nervousness or anger as "reasonable suspicion." The possibility of unjustified interrogation and even arrest is real, Lu said.

Although police promised they would not engage in racial profiling, Lu said that, as with all street-level policing, people of color and poor immigrants would be particularly vulnerable, especially if encounters lead to arrests.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; Miscellaneous; US: New York; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: baaaaa; libertarianfools; nonprofiling; nothintohidehere; nyc; nypd; sheeple; stupidliberals; tshirt; villagevoiceisarag; wot
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To: kellynla

Unless this is targeted by profiling it is nothing but a circle jerk and an utter waste of police manpower. What are they going to do in January, have everyone take off his coat? how many busses run through midtown? How many stops are there? How many taxis are there (and how many are owned and/or operated by muslims)? How many muslim owned and/or operated coffee, pretzel, hot dog carts are there in Manhattan? Each of these should be checked every day if they want to waste manpower in an area where it might actually stop something.


501 posted on 07/22/2005 2:22:17 PM PDT by wtc911 (see my profile for how to contribute to a pentagon heroes fund)
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To: TAquinas
Maybe the cops should simply shoot everybody that enters a subway entrance. If they led a good life, they have nothing to worry about.

It would prevent bombs on subways.

502 posted on 07/22/2005 2:22:23 PM PDT by Stu Cohen (Press '1' for English)
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To: wtc911
Unless this is targeted by profiling it is nothing but a circle jerk and an utter waste of police manpower.

I've been waiting 4 years for someone to use the term "circle jerk" on Free Republic.

Just when I was beginning to lose hope, BAM, you came though for me.

Thank you.

503 posted on 07/22/2005 2:24:03 PM PDT by Stu Cohen (Press '1' for English)
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To: MississippiMan

you could make the same argument about border security. everyday on FR, we have people who say "seal the border, stop the terrorists". I could easily make the case that the border cannot be sealed adequately to stop a small team of determined and well funded terrorists from crossing - so that logic says, why bother having any border security (immigration control aside). if random subway searches are useless because the odds of catching someone is too low to justify the civil rights intrusion, then border security isn't worth it either because ths odds of stopping a dedicated group from crossing with the 1000s of miles of borders we have, is too.

and we could run down a list of other things:

- random searches of trucks entering NYC tunnels. again, low odds of capture, so should these be eliminated?

- random boarding and searching of cargo ships entering NY harbor by the coast guard. again, low odds of capture, so should we eliminate that too?

I could go on and on - each individual security activity has "low odds" of success - should we eliminate them all?

what's left that we can do? because internment camps for muslims isn't going to happen, we both know that.


504 posted on 07/22/2005 2:25:38 PM PDT by oceanview
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To: Stu Cohen

I try to use it once a month...I alternate it with cluster F***.


505 posted on 07/22/2005 2:27:39 PM PDT by wtc911 (see my profile for how to contribute to a pentagon heroes fund)
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To: Stu Cohen

"Since you'll consent to ANYTHING to make yourself "safer", I can give you about 1,000 more instructions. Would you like me to post them, or freepmail them."

No, thanks. The first two tips you gave above were not clear. In fact, it's hard to discern what you're trying to say. I would imagine the rest of your "instructions" to be also not very effective in communicating them.


506 posted on 07/22/2005 2:27:49 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: Stu Cohen
What is all this "defiance of police" nonsense?

This thread is about a t-shirt being sold in New York City with a message that defies the police.

507 posted on 07/22/2005 2:31:16 PM PDT by RedRover
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To: TAquinas
No, thanks. The first two tips you gave above were not clear. In fact, it's hard to discern what you're trying to say. I would imagine the rest of your "instructions" to be also not very effective in communicating them.

Here, i'll speak slowly.

Stay .... inside .... and ... you ... will .... be .... safer .... than .... if .... you .... go .... outside.

Does anyone know sign language?

508 posted on 07/22/2005 2:31:22 PM PDT by Stu Cohen (Press '1' for English)
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To: Oberon
Not if you profile and do target searches of the foe.

Well then it's not a random search, is it?

Of course it ain't. A target search is not a random search.

509 posted on 07/22/2005 2:32:03 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: RedRover
This thread is about a t-shirt being sold in New York City with a message that defies the police.

It doesn't defy police. It says they don't consent to being searchd. Not giving consent isn't "defiance".

510 posted on 07/22/2005 2:32:14 PM PDT by Stu Cohen (Press '1' for English)
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To: Freebird Forever
Just for the sake of argument, I'll accept that you may be as inane as that question suggests.

Thanks for the personal attack.

511 posted on 07/22/2005 2:33:03 PM PDT by SandyInSeattle (Official RKBA Landscaper and Arborist, Duchess of Green Leafy Things)
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To: kellynla
if ya have nothin' to hide; then ya have no reason to object...

Your paper's are in order?

PS, DingDong sez hi.

512 posted on 07/22/2005 2:33:41 PM PDT by 68 grunt (3/1 India, 3rd, 68-69, 0311)
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To: savedbygrace

"That's amazing. It sure looked like you were disagreeing with me at first, but now it seems we're in agreement."

To tell you the truth, I was a bit confused at what my pupils were reading at first, but then realized we were in agreement and wanted to say so, but still not sure.

You've clarified that we are in agreement.


513 posted on 07/22/2005 2:35:06 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: SandyInSeattle
Thanks for the personal attack.

Not an attack. Just calling a spade a spade.

Next time grasp the substance of a comment the first time around and there will be no need to talk down to you.

514 posted on 07/22/2005 2:36:38 PM PDT by Freebird Forever (abolish islam)
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To: Stu Cohen
Now excuse me while I declare eminent domain on your toolshed.

HAHA. You must mean my neighbor. I haven't gotten around to building one yet!

515 posted on 07/22/2005 2:39:09 PM PDT by zeugma (Democrats and muslims are varelse...)
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To: xsrdx
xsrdx wrote:
"Random" searches are a crock and won't accomplish a thing. What's next, random searches on the sidewalk?

Good point. They may actually _resort to_ that before too long, after one or more suicide bombers blow themselves (and others) up in a public square. Do the same folks who so meekly consent to random searches in the subway, feel that random searches on the street will be needed, then, too?

I don't think the idea of "random searches" for the NYC subways and metropolitan-area commuter lines is going to work very well. They'll try to keep it up for a while, but like other things, what one tries to keep up must eventually come back down.

This goes _beyond_ the question of civil liberties and our rights under the Constitution (for the record, I _oppose_ such searches as an erosion of our liberties - what the heck are we supposed to be _fighting for_ anyway?). What's really may combine to make this unworkable are the issues of manpower, costs, and implementation.

My guess is that there are a _lot_ of posters in this forum who have absolutely NO idea of what the New York City subways and commuter lines are like during the rush hours. The hordes of people, crowding, pushing, teeming, just trying to get through the turnstiles.

Even the larger subway stations have relatively limited points of entry. That means that many, many - let me repeat that for emphasis, MANY - people must move through relatively constricted points of entry at a given speed in order to make the system workable. Clog up those entry points, and you have hundreds - THOUSANDS - who can't get into the system, every one of them trying to do their damnedest to get home after the workday.

Just how many riders can the NYC police actually corral, search, and release? One in a hundred? Two hundred? Three per hundred?

There are hundreds of subway stations in the system, many having two, three, or four access points. How much manpower is it going to take to secure the system? Are they going to secure every entry point, 24 hours a day? Who is going to pay for this? (HINT: it _ain't_ going to be the folks who live in New York City)

Let's consider the major transportation hubs, Grand Central and Penn Station. Penn Station has only about eight or nine entrance points through which must pass THOUSANDS of commuters, hurrying to make their trains. How are the police going to effectively cordon these areas so that they can scrutinize everyone? Impossible.

Or take Grand Central. Again, relatively few points of entry - and if you block those, you have hundreds of folks standing on the STREET, clogging up the outside of the station. Well, search them inside, right, at the gates of entry to the train platforms. Fine - but how about the commuter trying to make a train, who is hauled over to the side, searched, and misses his train? I wouldn't want to be the Metro-North official dealing with such folks.

Or consider the outlying commuter train lines, coming inbound. Dozens of stations, some in remote towns, high level platforms with multiple entry points. The only way to secure them is to limit the entry points so that everyone must walk through a cordoned gauntlet. Not likely. And the small towns which these stations serve don't have the financial resources to pay for local police to conduct searches on a 24-hour basis. Watch for an entire new "homeland transit security/TSA" bunch of goons, coming soon to a commuter station near you.

Strict security works for the airports because airplanes are _not_ "mass transit" machines; on the contrary, they carry limited numbers of riders, each of whom can be screened.

But trying to implement "security searches" on mass transit is going to be a nightmare. I predict it will either quickly be seen as:
1. Unworkable -or-
2. Unpalatable to the general public, who will demand that it be discontinued.

Then again, I could be wrong. Perhaps we are destined to surrender nearly every liberty we once held dear, all in the name of "feeling" safer.

In that case, I prefer the unsafe.

Cheers!
- John

516 posted on 07/22/2005 2:39:23 PM PDT by Fishrrman
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To: kellynla
... actually fought commies in combat ...

Like the wermact on the western front?

517 posted on 07/22/2005 2:40:04 PM PDT by 68 grunt (3/1 India, 3rd, 68-69, 0311)
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To: oceanview; Sonny M
is about 100 times dumber then having the police be watchful and picking out people to search.

Maybe so, but the critical legal point is that the cops are not permitted to "pick out people to search." For legal reasons, the search must be random or its unconstitutional.

That's what makes it stupid.

518 posted on 07/22/2005 2:44:18 PM PDT by XJarhead
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To: durasell
Also, I have something of a vested interest here, since I'm betting my life on these measures.

What if you are standing next to this guy in line waiting to be searched and get "blown up" when the cop wants to search him?

No offense but you are being terribly naive about "being blown up". The guys that wear bombs are neither intimidated nor deterred by random searches. If they are searched before they reach their destination, they just blow themselves up where they stand.

Additionally, the chances of the police searching the guy that is carrying the bomb is very low - insanely low. Why do you want to give up your freedoms for a futile approach?

519 posted on 07/22/2005 2:44:56 PM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: Stu Cohen

You still don't get it.

You can't profile the conduct of a target's lifespan, as you would run into the realm of abstractions. However, profiling of indiviuals based on non-tangibles criteria helps in choosing the target to be searched.


520 posted on 07/22/2005 2:45:36 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: Stu Cohen

This shirt is being sold in a far left publication that routinely portrays Bush as a vampire, as a Nazi, etc.
The maker of the shirt is an activist for illegal immigrants.
People who will be buying and wearing this shirt are being defiant of the searches. They are the same people who make New York and America less safe by being pro-illegal, anti-gun, anti-profiling.


521 posted on 07/22/2005 2:49:20 PM PDT by RedRover
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To: Stu Cohen

"Stay .... inside .... and ... you ... will .... be .... safer .... than .... if .... you .... go .... outside."

Stay inside? What's the matter with you?

If we followed that tip of yours, the world will come to a crawl, nay, civilization itself would halt. How how does this help catching the bad guys?


522 posted on 07/22/2005 2:52:21 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: oceanview
I could easily make the case that the border cannot be sealed adequately to stop a small team of determined and well funded terrorists from crossing

That would actually be an accurate statement. The reason to seal the border is stop the millions of immigrants who come here illegally and severely burden our social services.

Making it harder for potential terrorists would just be a potential benefit.

Note that if a terrorist was stopped by the border patrol and then blew themselves up, it wouldn't have the same effect as a terrorist detonating themselves in a crowded subway security line.

That point is very important as a terrorist that is stopped from entering a subway car can kill just as many people and cause just as much harm if he detonates while in the security line. This is truly a "feel good" measure that the left usually enjoys - I am surprised that conservatives are being fooled by it.

523 posted on 07/22/2005 2:53:47 PM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: Freebird Forever

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you.

I grasped you just fine, my FRiend. You were twisting my words and I was trying to clarify so we could have a conversation.

I won't bother.


524 posted on 07/22/2005 2:55:39 PM PDT by SandyInSeattle (Official RKBA Landscaper and Arborist, Duchess of Green Leafy Things)
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To: Stu Cohen
I actually like the stop-n-search policy from a strictly Machievillian perspective. The conceit of every generation is that they believe their experiences are unique. Since there is limited institutional memory, people tend to forget what type of people created the US; but the genes don't.

At some point, the f-you attitude will boil over and the real culprits will be targeted. However, this may take another generation or so - we should probably give the phony WOT a chance. That way, there won't be much disagreement when more dramatic war measures are implemented in the correct overseas targets.

525 posted on 07/22/2005 2:56:31 PM PDT by lemura
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To: 68 grunt

... eastern front, silly boy ...


526 posted on 07/22/2005 2:57:38 PM PDT by 68 grunt (3/1 India, 3rd, 68-69, 0311)
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To: BigFinn

I still like the 4th amendment, backed up by the 2nd amendment.... Who cares about the cool-aid drinkers?


527 posted on 07/22/2005 2:58:20 PM PDT by MarshallDillon (Texas is a RINO-circus and Governor Perry is wearing leotards in center ring.)
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To: TAquinas
How how does this help catching the bad guys?

How does conducting random searches in the subway help catch any bad guys? The odds of searching the right guy are astronomical and even if you do pick out the right one, he will detonate himself where he stands and take a cop and whoever else is standing nearby. It will cause just as much damage and fear and the bad guy will not still not be caught as it was his plan to blow himself up in any event.

I'm not saying that we have to give up. What the people who value freedom in this thread are saying is that it is silly to give up very important constitutional freedoms for an effort that is useless.

528 posted on 07/22/2005 2:59:25 PM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: JeffAtlanta

I agree - we want the border sealed because of the illegal immigration problem.

but imagine if no one wanted to come here from Mexico - that we didn't have an immigration issue. and that border security was only about keeping out potential terrorists and criminals. should we not do it? should we eliminate all visas, passports, just make it wide open - since after all, the odds of catching someone is so low, why bother?

take a bunch of these "feel good" low odds measures all together, and I feel it makes a difference.


529 posted on 07/22/2005 3:03:15 PM PDT by oceanview
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To: JeffAtlanta

On some days, my bag is searched three or four times. Library, office buildings, museums, etc. One more time won't make a difference.


530 posted on 07/22/2005 3:05:35 PM PDT by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: XJarhead

well, all I can tell you is that the very police department we are speaking of - NYPD - conducted sweeping stop and frisk activites to get crime under control when Rudy took office. I see no evidence it was random - specific neighboorhoods were targeted, that alone constitutes a form of profiling. I didn't see any court rulings stopping it. what stopped it? the Diallo shooting.


531 posted on 07/22/2005 3:06:24 PM PDT by oceanview
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To: JeffAtlanta; oceanview

Oceanview: "I could easily make the case that the border cannot be sealed adequately to stop a small team of determined and well funded terrorists from crossing"

That's ridiculous. According to your "case," we should open the border gates to the immigrant alien since one or two terrorist might slip through the net if the borders were sealed. The fact is that closing the borders prevents the crossing of 99.99% of criminal aliens terrorists and foreign murderers. Keeping them open allows for 99.99% of the world's trash to come in at their pleasure.

JeffAtlanta: "That would actually be an accurate statement. The reason to seal the border is stop the millions of immigrants who come here illegally and severely burden our social services."

The Open Borders crackpots are either confused and naive, or they intentionally would love to see our country's sovereignty lost to hordes of colonizing Third World aliens.


532 posted on 07/22/2005 3:10:24 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: BigFinn

You have the right to refuse being searched.
We have the right to refuse to let you ride our subways.


533 posted on 07/22/2005 3:12:11 PM PDT by Cincinna (BEWARE HILLARY and her HINO)
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To: lemura

Excellent!

I take a bow to you, Sir/Madam.


534 posted on 07/22/2005 3:12:16 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: oceanview
and that border security was only about keeping out potential terrorists and criminals. should we not do it?

The difference is that securing the border does not infringe or erode any constitutional freedoms - random searches do.

The problem with this measure is that is both futile and infringes on constitutional freedoms. The futility and ineffectiveness of the plan wouldn't be that big of a deal if were more friendly to the constitution. And for what it's worth, the constitutional issues wouldn't be as big of deal if it were a very effective approach.

This approach however does nothing but erode freedoms and inconvenience law abiding citizens.

535 posted on 07/22/2005 3:13:12 PM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: BigFinn
Immigration leftists like Clinton and Bush have traded our right to live in liberty in a safe Western nation-state for the glorious diversity of an islam-infected "world-country".

Four years after 9-11, and Bush (or is it Clinton or Kerry - can't tell them apart on this issue) is still pouring foreign muslims into our homeland at the rate of 100,000 per year. Bush's eight years of "leadership" will add another million muslims to the USA through legal immigration and the US-born children of those immigrants.

Here's what he (and Congress) did to America in one year alone (2002)

Birth
Country
Legal USA Immigrants
2002
Muslim population percentage Estimated 2002 Muslim Legal Immigrants
Pakistan          9,415               97                9,133
Iran          7,230               99                7,158
India        50,228               14                7,032
Philippines        45,250               14                6,335
Nigeria          7,872               75                5,904
Ethiopia          6,635               65                4,313
Bangladesh          4,616               85                3,924
Egypt          3,348               94                3,147
Morocco          3,137               99                3,096
Turkey          3,029             100                3,023
Jordan          2,927               95                2,781
Albania          3,362               75                2,522
Russia        13,935               18                2,508
Somalia          2,444             100                2,444
Iraq          2,450               97                2,377
Lebanon          2,956               70                2,069
Syria          1,938               90                1,744
Indonesia          1,805               95                1,715
Sudan          1,883               85                1,601
Yemen          1,382               99                1,368
Ghana          4,410               30                1,323
Uzbekistan          1,445               88                1,272
Afghanistan          1,252             100                1,252
Guyana          6,809               15                1,021
Sierra Leone          1,492               65                   970
Kenya          3,209               30                   947
Algeria             759               99                   751
Niger             808               91                   735
Saudi Arabia             735             100                   735
Romania          3,655               20                   731
Azerbaijan             746               93                   697
Togo          1,187               55                   653
Kuwait             707               89                   629
Malaysia          1,200               52                   624
Serbia and Mont.          2,994               19                   569
Bulgaria          3,825               14                   536
Liberia          1,766               30                   530
Cameroon             927               55                   510
Senegal             522               95                   496
Eritrea             556               80                   445
Thailand          3,126               14                   438
Israel          2,741               14                   384
UAE             380               96                   365
Tanzania             554               65                   360
Tunisia             353               98                   346
Cote d'Ivoire             483               60                   290
Kyrgyzstan             356               76                   271
United Kingdom          9,527                3                   257
Macedonia             653               30                   196
Germany          5,064                3                   172
Canada        11,350                1                   168
France          2,375                7                   166
Uganda             455               36                   164
Libya             140             100                   140
Mauritania             131             100                   131
Guinea-Bissau             176               70                   123
Fiji          1,095               11                   120
Burma          1,193               10                   119
Tajikistan             137               85                   116
Sri Lanka          1,246                9                   112
Mali             124               90                   112
Singapore             582               17                    99
Nepal          2,095                4                    84
Georgia             735               11                    81
Oman              76             100                    76
Turkmenistan              84               87                    73
Qatar              72             100                    72
Argentina          3,129                2                    63
Japan          5,971                1                    60
Bahrain              59             100                    59
Zimbabwe             358               15                    54
Panama          1,164                4                    47
Suriname             180               25                    45
South Africa          2,210                2                    44
Zambia             280               15                    42
Cyprus             123               33                    41
Australia          1,836                2                    38
Brazil          6,331                1                    38
Hong Kong          3,574                1                    36
Sweden             963                4                    35
Burkina Faso              60               50                    30
Netherlands             981                3                    29
Guinea              29               95                    28
Cambodia          2,263                1                    23
Malawi              62               35                    22
Italy          1,644                1                    16
Djibouti              16               94                    15
Maldives              15             100                    15
Burundi              74               20                    15
Angola              59               25                    15
Croatia          1,153                1                    14
Brunei              20               63                    13
Benin              76               15                    11
Mauritius              57               20                    11
Mozambique              36               29                    10
Greece             651                2                    10
Madagascar              40               20                      8
Chad                8               85                      7
Mongolia             153                4                      6
Malta              37               14                      5
Norway             320                2                      5
Cen. African Rep.                6               55                      3
Comoros                3               86                      3
Swaziland              23               10                      2
Namibia              40                5                      2
Aruba              27                5                      1
Botswana              27                5                      1
United States              32                4                      1
Rwanda             109                1                      1
Bhutan              15                5                      1
Slovenia              64                1                      1
Reunion                3               20                      1
Lesotho                5               10                      1
TOTAL              95,577

536 posted on 07/22/2005 3:14:13 PM PDT by dagnabbit (Vincente Fox's opening line at the Mexico-USA summit meeting: "Bring out the Gimp!")
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To: JeffAtlanta

"How does conducting random searches in the subway help catch any bad guys?"

I'm not for random searches, rather for targeted searches and profiling would help tremendously.


537 posted on 07/22/2005 3:15:30 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: RedRover

A stopped clock is right twice a day.

This guy who wrote the original article in question may have drawn his conclusions as to the inappropriateness of Bloomberg's action for reasons that you and I might not agree with. That does not automatically make his conclusion wrong. For my part, I recall being appalled but unsurprised by the new policy within moments of hearing about it earlier today.

I have only read about a third of the messages in this thread, but must heartily second the opinions expressed in message 484. I am astonished to see so many supposedly right-thinking people on this board happily relinquish their rights and freedoms with nary a concern for the consequences. Perhaps it is that many on this board avoid NYC at all costs anyway and regard it as past salvation. If so, this is a remarkably narrow and short-sighted view.


538 posted on 07/22/2005 3:17:01 PM PDT by dsmcf
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To: dagnabbit

Precisely how did 32 people manage to legally immigrate from the US into the US? Enquiring minds and all that...


539 posted on 07/22/2005 3:22:41 PM PDT by dsmcf
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To: TAquinas
I'm not for random searches, rather for targeted searches and profiling would help tremendously.

I agree but we both know that grannies and yuppies will end up being the ones searched. I also imagine that this will be used as an excuse to search those who fit a profile of a recreational drug user.

In this case, a guy blowing himself in a crowded subway station can be just as devastating as blowing himself in a subway car. The London bombers haven't killed very many people at all. The bad guys will not be caught or deterred the least bit by the searches.

All this measure does is give the police an excuse to search you. This should be very worrisome to those who love freedom.

The war on drugs has already eroded most of our freedoms - I fear that the war on terrorism will erode the rest.

540 posted on 07/22/2005 3:23:21 PM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: dagnabbit

Thanks for that list.

It's a must-read/study by every American as we are being transformed from a European extended nation to a third world nation somewhere between a Haiti and a Mexico.

Time to prepare our families.


541 posted on 07/22/2005 3:24:20 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: dagnabbit

That compilation also proofs what I have always said: Legal immigration is a much bigger problem than illegal immigration.


542 posted on 07/22/2005 3:27:13 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: dsmcf
Precisely how did 32 people manage to legally immigrate from the US into the US? Enquiring minds and all that...

My guess is that these are people who were born here, moved abroad and then renounced or otherwise lost their U.S. citizenship. Should such a person then move back to the USA, they would have to get an immigrant visa, and would thus show up in the stats as US-born.

Also a very few people (children of foreign diplomats) born here are not US citizens, and would thus need an immigrant visa (or lax US government) in order to live here.

543 posted on 07/22/2005 3:33:19 PM PDT by dagnabbit (Vincente Fox's opening line at the Mexico-USA summit meeting: "Bring out the Gimp!")
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To: JeffAtlanta
I'm not for random searches, rather for targeted searches and profiling would help tremendously.

I agree but we both know that grannies and yuppies will end up being the ones searched. I also imagine that this will be used as an excuse to search those who fit a profile of a recreational drug user.

You are confused.

You target the enemy -- whom should not be here in the first place -- not grannies and drug users.

544 posted on 07/22/2005 3:36:47 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: BurbankKarl

Good for the cops. I don't CARE what happens to the Times or any of their so called reporters. We all know what he's going to do with those pics.


545 posted on 07/22/2005 3:47:13 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Lord, we need a Logan miracle for Simcha7 and Cowboy. Please.)
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To: TAquinas
Sure getting blown up is a tremendous inconvenience, but think of all the marvelous international dining choices you now have! I hear one could hardly find a Shawarma stand back in the old, boring America.

Celebrate Diversity!
546 posted on 07/22/2005 3:51:02 PM PDT by dagnabbit (Vincente Fox's opening line at the Mexico-USA summit meeting: "Bring out the Gimp!")
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To: RedRover
How is wearing a t-shirt like that and defying the police a good thing?

I don't want to live in a police state because of Radical Islam or any other idiotic reason. If Islam is the problem then deal with Islam not the entire Global Population.

_____________________

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

547 posted on 07/22/2005 3:58:10 PM PDT by Major_Risktaker
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To: dagnabbit

Diversity is tyranny.

Demographics is destiny.


548 posted on 07/22/2005 4:03:28 PM PDT by TAquinas (Demographics has consequences: Tom Tancredo for President 2008/2012.)
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To: TAquinas
You are confused.

No, I think you misunderstood my post. I am saying that grannies and drug users SHOULD be targeted for random searches - I'm saying that is what WILL be done.

549 posted on 07/22/2005 4:15:45 PM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: RedRover
This shirt is being sold in a far left publication that routinely portrays Bush as a vampire, as a Nazi, etc. The maker of the shirt is an activist for illegal immigrants. People who will be buying and wearing this shirt are being defiant of the searches. They are the same people who make New York and America less safe by being pro-illegal, anti-gun, anti-profiling.

Well, that may be true, but by all accounts the guy that discovered aspirin was a real asshole. This doesn't make everyone who takes aspirin an asshole.

Supposed someone else made the shirt ... would it be okay to wear it then?

Not consenting to something is not "defiance". Especially when they say you can walk away. That is simply ... not consenting. "Defiance" would be struggling to take your bag away from police after they declared that their dog smelled explosives and they had reasonable suspicion to look in it. Defiance would be slapping the cop in the face. Defiance is not refusing consent. Consent, by it's nature, is voluntary - and one cannot be defiant for refusing it.

The neighborhood kid asked if I would give him $10 to mow my lawn. I did not consent. He didn't mow my lawn. Did I "defy" him? No. I simply declined to have it done. And in return, I didn't get my lawn mowed. At this point, it sounds like if you don't consent to inspetion in the subway, you don't get to enter that particular turnstile. You have to walk to the other entrance, or maybe to the next stop. But that's not "defience". It's making a choice.

Everyone is free to consent or not consent. They may check the bag without your consent, but not granting your consent is not defiance. It is doing what you think is right. And we should all do what we think is right. And not abiding by a law that violates the Bill of Rights is actually an OBLIGATION that all patriotic Americans have. Yes, I realize that it is impractical, and "not the way things work" ... but it's presicely our passivity to the deterioration of the Consitution that has gotten us to this point. Now since we've made 4/5th of the journey to totalitarianism people just say "we might as well go the rest of the way", but I don't begrudge the small number of people who try to preserve what the military is fighting for. Freedom.

550 posted on 07/22/2005 4:16:48 PM PDT by Stu Cohen (Press '1' for English)
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