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At Lakewood, goal is to be 'good stewards of God's money'
Houston Chronicle ^ | July 23, 2005, 6:13PM | By JOHN C. ROPER

Posted on 07/24/2005 1:36:58 PM PDT by zzen01

With 300 employees, a projection of $77 million in annual revenue and audited financial statements, Houston's Lakewood Church sounds a lot like a business. ADVERTISEMENT

And in many ways, it is.

"It would be naive to say, 'No, we're not a business,' " Senior Pastor Joel Osteen said in an interview. "We obviously are a business because we're dealing with millions of dollars. And I say that because we don't take that lightly."

According to a copy of the church's most recent audited financial statement obtained by the Chronicle and a review of public records including court documents, Lakewood is a sophisticated and successful business operation.

"We have to be good stewards of God's money, so we run it by sound, solid business principles," said Osteen, who this year stopped taking his $200,000 salary from the church and instead lives on profits from sales of his best-selling book, Your Best Life Now, which has sold 2.8 million copies.

The documents show revenue for the 2004 fiscal year of $54 million, including $3.4 million from the church bookstore, which sells religious videos, CDs and books.

Records also show:

•It owns and operates KTBU Channel 55, "The Tube," a local television station that features religious shows and retro programming like Gunsmoke and I Love Lucy. •Employees have access to retirement plans. •It has had a multimillion-dollar line of credit at Northern Trust Bank and has seven-figure investments in securities.. •Lakewood structured a sophisticated $60 million construction loan with Bank of America to revamp its new home at the former Compaq Center using collateral pledges from its members, a deed of trust on its northeast Houston campus and a life insurance policy for Joel Osteen. •The church has successfully sued to protect Joel Osteen's name as a valuable trademark. •Osteen, who lives in a home appraised at $2.3 million in the ritzy Tanglewood neighborhood, is listed as president of Lakewood Church, a nonprofit organization. (A spokesman for the church noted that Osteen paid $380,000 for the home when he bought it, though it has since been remodeled.) If Lakewood is to be compared to a business, there is no doubt it is family-run:

Osteen's wife, Victoria, his mother, brother, sister and in-laws all play central roles.

Kevin Comes, who is married to Joel Osteen's sister, Lisa, who also is a pastor at the church, is the administrator who handles the day-to-day business. He attributes much of the success to penny-pinching.

"We have an incredible budgeting system," Comes said. "We budget all the way down to hot chocolate."

Comes said Lakewood has done "significant analysis" that shows the church will increase its revenue by 42 percent, from $54 million in fiscal year 2004 to $77 million in the current fiscal year, 2006. At the same time, annual operating expenses will rise from $45 million to $75 million.

Comes said the increased revenue will come from a sharp increase in weekend attendance — already at 30,000 strong before the church moved into the former Compaq Center. Worshippers are encouraged to tithe 10 percent or more of their income annually.

Lakewood recently held its first services in the 16,000-seat arena, drawing standing-room-only crowds.

The church has few big donors and counts on a large volume of middle-income families, Comes said. "We have a huge middle class that gives responsibly," he added.

While Lakewood is considered the largest church in the country by attendance, it is not alone in finding success among the masses. Hundreds of other so-called megachurches — defined as having 2,000 or more weekly attendants — are cropping up around the country, and they're filling the pews using business tactics.

"Lakewood, and megachurches like it, are efficiently marketing an interchangeable product better than the competition," said James Twitchell, a professor of English and advertising at the University of Florida who's written about churches and marketing.

"They have been able to tell a story, dynamically market a brand and are harvesting the reward, namely, greater consumption at higher profit margins thanks to economies of scale."

John Green, a political science professor at the University of Akron in Ohio, who studies megachurches and their impact on society, refers to Osteen and other megachurch leaders as "religious entrepreneurs" who excel at niche marketing.

"If you go to a megachurch, you'll find that they emphasize different things, and if you're looking at this from a business point of view, that's good marketing. You find your niche," he said.

Interpretations of the Bible, for example, vary widely from church to church and are sometimes tailored to their demographics, Green said.

Lakewood features "prosperity gospel," which promises the faithful that if they ask, God will reward them financially. Its niche is what Osteen calls "the unsaved" or "unchurched."

"We like to target people who do not go to church today," Osteen said.

Green also said megachurches are frequently structured like corporations.

Lakewood Church, for example, has a president, a chief financial officer who oversees a team of accountants, a board of directors, a public relations officer, and health and retirement plans.

Osteen said he is mainly involved in the spiritual side of Lakewood's operation but that the church has hired "top-quality people to manage the money to help us be good stewards."

It's common for a megachurch to have annual revenue in the millions of dollars, and for most if not all of that money to be spent on construction, highly produced services, advertising, promotion and broadcasting, according to the Hartford Institute for Religion Research.

The average annual income for a megachurch was $4.8 million, with expenditures of $4.4 million, according to a 2000 Hartford study.

Just 25 years ago, there were only about a dozen megachurches in the United States. There are at least 1,200 today, according to the Hartford Institute's Scott Thumma, who is wrapping up a study on the phenomenon.

Thumma said those churches are mainly nondenominational and are in 45 of 50 states. Texas leads the nation with 174 megachurches, followed by California with 169 and Florida with 83. Houston and Dallas account for 56 megachurches alone.

Broadcasting is a big part of the megachurch.

Some 44 percent use radio and 38 percent use television to spread their gospel and in turn get bigger, according to Thumma's research.

While no one knows for sure how much the megachurch industry is worth, most experts say that with their millions of attendees, who often tithe 10 percent of their income or more to the church annually, it's in the many billions of dollars.

"This is a business that dwarfs all other businesses. This business dwarfs the car business. Nothing compares to it," said Twitchell, who wrote Branded Nation: The Marketing of the Megachurch, College Inc., and Museumworld, which examines how religion, education and culture are relying heavily on brand recognition and marketing.

He's working on another book, Shopping for God, which will show how megachurches are targeting audiences using highly developed marketing skills.

Megachurches, he said, are marketing salvation.

"From a consumer point of view, we may not think we're church shopping, but from their point of view, they're shopping God," he said.

And to do it, they are targeting an audience that Twitchell said churches once largely failed to court — men.

"That's been the marketing breakthrough. If you want this thing to succeed and get big and get strong, pitch it to men," he said.

Megachurches, he said, are unlike the churches of yesteryear in that they feature what men like: comfortable cineplex-style seats, glossy professional-quality performances with high-tech sound and video systems, and rapid-fire sermons about issues related to day-to-day living.

In its glossy magazine's summer edition, Lakewood Church features an article written by a star of the Houston Texans football team, David Carr, whom it counts as a member.

With a laid-back tone and action photos of the popular quarterback playing football, Carr discusses how his faith guides him as a father and a field general.

At a recent Sunday service at Lakewood, among the crowd of several thousand were family men in their 20s and 30s.

On that Sunday, while her brother Joel was in California preparing to preach to a sold-out stadium in Anaheim, Lisa Comes gave a sermon to several thousand churchgoers on personal finance, which she called "financial freedom from the Bible's point of view."

Financial freedom, she said, will come to those who tithe.

And the church isn't shy about asking the congregation to ramp up its tithing. Joel Osteen said he wants to pay off "as quickly as possible" the $60 million construction loan used to refurbish Compaq Center. He said he expects church members, who have already paid $35 million of the $95 million cost, to carry the load.

"We're just going to put it to the congregation that we want to pay this thing off," Osteen said during a recent media tour of the arena.

He said he doesn't fret over filling the stadium or raising enough money to pay expenses.

"I don't lose any sleep over it," Osteen said in an interview. "If something's not working, we'll scale back."

Osteen suggested that the church could even eventually outgrow its new home.

"I'm satisfied with this, but 10 years from now, you never know," he said.

"We might need something bigger."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: lakewood; lakewoodchurch; marketing; megachurch; osteen; religon
What does everyone think of this?
1 posted on 07/24/2005 1:36:58 PM PDT by zzen01
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To: zzen01
It is hard to say, exactly. If Lakewood is truly following biblical precepts, then I'm okay with that. I am reminded that Abraham, Solomon, David, and others where individually financially wealthy. Wealth is not the issue, as it may appear in the article. If they are indeed being good stewards and listening to the voice of God, then fantastic. If this is some variation on Jim and Tammy Baker, then that's a problem, and if it is, it won't stand for very long - also like Jim and Tammy Baker.
2 posted on 07/24/2005 1:46:00 PM PDT by Obadiah
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To: zzen01

The obvious coment is that the main-stream, or main-line churches have all failed miserably at quenching the thirst that people have for a creditable message of faith..OTOH, I'd rather have this guy put his whole family on the payroll, as compared to what ECUSA does with its Diocesan pledeg here in NY.


3 posted on 07/24/2005 1:46:21 PM PDT by ken5050 (Ann Coulter needs to have children ASAP to pass on her gene pool....any volunteers?)
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To: zzen01

Theologically speaking, his sermons are hardly 'meaty'.

Some find him to be inspiring and uplifting, which is fine. To me, his sermons are motivational messages sprinkled with a little religion.

Not knocking the guy...he could be doing lots worse.

If he's sincere, then good for him.


4 posted on 07/24/2005 1:49:53 PM PDT by jra
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To: zzen01

If they're making audited financial statements available to the public, then it seems to me they're being honest with their contributors. It's up to the congregants to decide whether they're getting something they value.


5 posted on 07/24/2005 1:52:28 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Standing athwart history, shouting, "Turn those lights off! You think electricity grows on trees?")
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To: ken5050

It is sad if this phenomenal church growth is because people are drawn to a pastor that refuses to rebuke sin.


6 posted on 07/24/2005 1:54:05 PM PDT by RushingWater
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To: zzen01

A bit different than the way Jesus ministered. He had no home, no mega buildings, traveled about the country with a few disciples. He preached about the kingdom of God not what you could accumulate on this earth. He gave his life that others might live. He was a servant not a CEO.


7 posted on 07/24/2005 1:54:21 PM PDT by BigFinn
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To: ken5050

It is sad if this phenomenal church growth is because people are drawn to a pastor that refuses to rebuke sin.


8 posted on 07/24/2005 1:55:52 PM PDT by RushingWater
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To: zzen01

I wonder what percentage of their income goes towards supporting missionaries and charitable outreach?


9 posted on 07/24/2005 1:59:23 PM PDT by mollynme (cogito, ergo freepum)
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To: ken5050

"The obvious coment is that the main-stream, or main-line churches have all failed miserably at quenching the thirst that people have for a creditable message of faith."

An additional point is that Osteen refrains from hammering his congregation with his political opinions. Nothing turns me off like going to church and having the pastor assume I'm a liberal Democrat.


10 posted on 07/24/2005 2:01:17 PM PDT by clearlight
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To: zzen01
I certainly don't trust prosperity doctrine or a "bigger is better" mentality. I've attended and worked (administrative employee and lay person) in huge and small churches, both of which were great. Still, from my brief review of O'Steen, he seems to have all the big issues right.

This might be a style thing with me, but I never have liked the "shiny happy people" version of Christianity prevalent in the American church. A premium is placed on having a perfect smile, perfect suits, perfect family, hyper-polished presentations, etc. I would much rather listen to a preacher that is rough around the edges and has had his share of dark times. After all, Christ was called "the Man of Sorrows" and Solomon wrote "a sad face is good for the heart." Seeing a preacher with an eternal 1,000-watt smile and ubiquitous $2,000 suits makes me squeamish from the start. But as I mentioned, that might be more of a style than doctrinal issue.

11 posted on 07/24/2005 2:02:41 PM PDT by inkling
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To: RushingWater

What sin didn't Osteen rebuke?


12 posted on 07/24/2005 2:04:18 PM PDT by inkling
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To: zzen01
Two things..

1. Good work, if you can get it.

2. Sounds like a 'business', should be taxed as such.

I have absolutely NO qualms about criticizing most, if not all, of these 'made-for-TV' 'ministeries'. Joel sounds and looks a little too slick, for me. As does that slickster in Columbus or the weird bearded one that is always selling his books (has to do with 'gifts of life' or something like that).

Give me an old-fashioned Cathloic priest any day; not these 'happy-people' ministers that are only a small upgrade from a used-car salesperson.

13 posted on 07/24/2005 2:10:24 PM PDT by fuquadukie (If you can't hang with the big dogs, then don't jump off the porch.)
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To: BigFinn

"A bit different than the way Jesus ministered. "


Indeed. Jesus preached about giving one's wealth away and joining him, NOT using His Word to generate a $200,000/year salary.


14 posted on 07/24/2005 2:20:38 PM PDT by Blzbba (For a man who does not know to which port he is sailing, no wind is favorable - Seneca)
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To: zzen01
Lakewood features "prosperity gospel," which promises the faithful that if they ask, God will reward them financially.

I don't know the context of this statement, but I strongly disagree with it as it reads. God does indeed bless some people with "wealth and prosperity", but we not entitled to that from God. In fact God calls people to follow Him wherever He leads whether that would be serving as missionaries to Africa or serving in small churches in backwoods America. There is no guarantee that we will be "comfortable" but rather we are commanded to just follow Him.

I think that statement refers to the verses in Malachi chapter 3 about "opening up the floodgates and pour out so much blessing". However those verses are not talking about financial blessings per se, but we will be blessed in other means.

15 posted on 07/24/2005 2:39:36 PM PDT by Space Dawg
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To: zzen01; Quix
......"It would be naive to say, 'No, we're not a business,' " Senior Pastor Joel Osteen said in an interview. "We obviously are a business because we're dealing with millions of dollars. And I say that because we don't take.... (that).... lightly.".....

....but it 'is' the......'TAKE'....as USUAL....$$$$....the love of _______'is' the ...........hidden....Terrorism!

....impossible?

1st John 4:1......

16 posted on 07/24/2005 2:53:05 PM PDT by maestro
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To: zzen01
It souns a lot like Frazer UMC in Montgomery, AL which has been called “Six Flags over Jesus.”
17 posted on 07/24/2005 2:55:44 PM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (The left won't be happy until Judge Roberts performs an abortion on the Senate floor.)
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To: jra

I agree with you totally. I wish these churches would preach more about Jesus and less about getting rich


18 posted on 07/24/2005 3:01:09 PM PDT by constitutionfan
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To: zzen01
What does everyone think of this?

Let me get "everyone" on the phone, then we'll tell you.

19 posted on 07/24/2005 3:04:29 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: zzen01
Lakewood features "prosperity gospel," which promises the faithful that if they ask, God will reward them financially. Its niche is what Osteen calls "the unsaved" or "unchurched."

This certainly is not biblical and reminiscent to "name it and claim" gospel.....YIKES!!!
20 posted on 07/24/2005 3:07:24 PM PDT by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine; fortheDeclaration; bondserv
yep.......

.....sounds 'TBN'.......and 'Rich Warren'......transitions of money laundering......

/naw

21 posted on 07/24/2005 3:18:01 PM PDT by maestro
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To: fuquadukie
Sounds like a 'business', should be taxed as such...........

I have absolutely NO qualms about criticizing most................

Give me an old-fashioned Cathloic priest any day...

Isn't the Catholic Church one of the largest 'businesses' (to use your word) in the world?

22 posted on 07/24/2005 3:19:26 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle
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To: fuquadukie

You are enthusisastic about Catholic priests after all the scandals they have been and are creating? I will take a used car salesman to a pedophile anyday. (None of this is particularly valid, but your comment desereved something in the same vein).


23 posted on 07/24/2005 3:27:59 PM PDT by Meletus
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To: fuquadukie

**Sounds like a 'business', should be taxed as such.**

History tells me the Catholic church 'acquired' a lot of wealth during the dark ages. One of my lifelong friends, an RC, visited Notre Dame in Paris years ago. He says that is an example of the megachurch centuries ago. And as he walked around in it, he said he couldn't help but think "was all this granduer acquired honestly?". He says he doubts it.


24 posted on 07/24/2005 3:31:07 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: RushingWater

It is sad if this phenomenal church growth is because people are drawn to a pastor that refuses to rebuke sin.



Well maybe sad.... but if'n you want hell fire and damnation, speaking in tongues, shouting in the aisles, etc then don't go to Lakewood.... or that is my observation from what little I've seen of the message on tv. Pastor Osteen sends a feel good message which helps motivate people in their daily lives or so it seems to me that is what he's doing. Maybe some of it helps the attendees to be better people in their lives at home, at work and in the public... who knows.


25 posted on 07/24/2005 3:34:38 PM PDT by deport (If you want something bad enough, there's someone who will sell it to you. Even the truth your way.)
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To: zzen01
A large part of the reason I'm a former Catholic is that most priests I encountered seemed just like the people that Jesus chased from the Temple with scourges.

I guess everybody has a line that separates prudent accumulation of property and security from greedy hoarding and huge salaries. This one in the story crosses mine.

$200,000 a year for a pastor? That's even more than most school superintendents make in Illinois, my new definition of over-paid "public servants."

26 posted on 07/24/2005 3:37:39 PM PDT by Bernard (Land of Lincoln, birthplace of Reagan, and now Durbin; The Decline and Fall of Illinois)
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To: zzen01

Let God's word judge who is faithful, who is sanctified.

Big, small, or in between, it doesn't matter, if church bodies are being fed something less than the whole gospel, then God is no doubt less than pleased. But the Lord will sort the 'wheat from the tares', and the 'sheep from the goats'.

What saith He?
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt. 7:14

Just a few. His words, not mine.


27 posted on 07/24/2005 3:41:45 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: BigFinn

Funny this was posted about a preacher in Houston.
A year and a half ago I went to Houston (actually Conroe, TX) and did seats carpet and sidewalls on a preachers Gulstream II. He has three churches in Houston with 20000 members and another big church in Austin. He also has a Hawker 400 and a Bell 206 helicopter.
A diamond encrusted gold medallion the size of a dinner plate hung around his neck and his wife was prettier than Halle Berry.
What was really funny, after the pastor left the airplane while we were working one of the mechanics working on the plane said " Damn, did ya'll see that hubcap hangin' around that preacher's neck ?"
I almost fell out of the airplane laughing at that.But I told him don't knock it his money is the same color as everyone else's.
These African preachers run in circles. Another from Maryland bought a G-II after that and called me up as I had done work for him before. He couldn't stand it. I had to arrange a limo for his entourage when he came to see me. $175.00 hr stretch Hummer so he could go see Creflo Dollar, or as we call him "Cashflow Dollar".
More stories about these guys later.


28 posted on 07/24/2005 3:41:51 PM PDT by fuzzycat
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To: zzen01

This will probably sound like sour grapes; but I don't understand a "Man of God" lives in a $2.3 million dollar home.


29 posted on 07/24/2005 3:46:57 PM PDT by freekitty
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To: deport
......Well maybe sad.... but if'n you want hell fire and damnation, speaking in tongues, shouting in the aisles, etc then don't go to Lakewood.... or that is my observation from what little I've seen of the message on tv. Pastor Osteen sends a feel good message which helps motivate people in their daily lives or so it seems to me that is what he's doing. Maybe some of it helps the attendees to be better people in their lives at home, at work and in the public... who knows.....

"Rollin in....'dough'... Osteen"

"Rollin in....'dough'... ______"

"Rollin in ...'dough'...Schiller"

"Rollin in ...'dough'...My-ears"

"Rollin in ...'dough'...Rich Warren"

......Roll Me Over in the... 'Clover'.....$$$$$

30 posted on 07/24/2005 3:57:09 PM PDT by maestro
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To: Bernard

**$200,000 a year for a pastor? That's even more than most school superintendents make in Illinois, my new definition of over-paid "public servants."**

YOU DARE ATTACK ANY STATE SPONSORED POSITION IN THE COMMUNIST PROVINCE OF ILLINOIS??? OFF TO GITMO WITH YOU!! :D


31 posted on 07/24/2005 3:58:04 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: zzen01

You know, we do not have safe communities anymore where common values are shared. These mega churches provide communities for people to find others who share similar values and a safe place to raise children. I think it is great and wish there was one around here.


32 posted on 07/24/2005 7:16:48 PM PDT by mlmr (CHICKIE-POO!)
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To: zzen01
What does everyone think of this?

I certainly have disagreements with their theology, but his salary was not out of line and facility costs are in line with attendance.

33 posted on 07/24/2005 8:33:41 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Bernard
$200,000 a year for a pastor? That's even more than most school superintendents make in Illinois

I would suspect that is low for comparable jobs at mega-churches in Dallas or Houston. Of course, most mega-church pastors supplement the salary with book sales. And the packages should be structured so that a large chunk of the $200,000 would be non-taxable.

34 posted on 07/24/2005 8:39:16 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35; Bernard

$200,000 / yr is what Mr Osteen used to make. He no longer draws any salary from the church.

Also, his house is large, but was bought relatively cheap many years ago. Many homes in the Tanglewood area were undervalued for tax purposes, but property taxes in Texas have exploded. Since these communities are capped at the tax rate they can charge, we are seeing large increases in home valuation. The $2.8 million is what the taxing authority declares it to be worth.

I have personally done business with Lakewood. The business office is straight-forward and bids nearly everything out. I have seen them go beyond what is normal to remain above reproach.

One can disagree about their message, but the church is run very professionally. And they pay their bills on time.


35 posted on 07/24/2005 9:29:22 PM PDT by texas booster (Bless the legal immigrants!)
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To: zzen01

His Father was above reproach as far as I know. I sure don't want to see another Jim Baker?Swaggert type scandal. but money and power corrupt. He needs prayers to keep him on the right path.


36 posted on 07/24/2005 9:31:24 PM PDT by marty60
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To: Space Dawg

I don't recall Joel Osteen promising anything other than that God will meet all of our needs if we are faithful, which is what is promised in the Bible. To those whom much has been given, much will be required. God will judge whether or not good stewardship has been practiced.

Just because a person is poor doesn't make him a more righteous believer. It may just mean that believer is a poor steward.


37 posted on 07/24/2005 10:10:52 PM PDT by skr (Almighty God, thank you for the liberty you have bestowed upon this nation.)
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To: RushingWater
It is sad if this phenomenal church growth is because people are drawn to a pastor that refuses to rebuke sin.

Amen!

2Tim.4:3.

38 posted on 07/24/2005 10:56:48 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Gal.4:16)
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To: clearlight
An additional point is that Osteen refrains from hammering his congregation with his political opinions.

What makes you think Osteen has any opinions, on anything?

The driving force of this type of church is the lack of any strong conviction on anything.

39 posted on 07/24/2005 10:58:59 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Gal.4:16)
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To: inkling
What sin didn't Osteen rebuke?

What sin did he rebuke?

Except not having not enough 'faith'to be wealthy?

40 posted on 07/24/2005 11:01:13 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Gal.4:16)
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To: zzen01; Do not dub me shapka broham
Reverand Ike rules!

http://www.revike.org/

41 posted on 07/24/2005 11:01:54 PM PDT by Clemenza (JJesus CChrist MMade SSeattle UUnder PProtest)
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To: Clemenza

"Have you gotten your HOLY, magic cloth yet?"

42 posted on 07/25/2005 2:25:03 AM PDT by Do not dub me shapka broham
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To: zzen01
"What does everyone think of this?"---It boggles my mind. Our pastor makes less than 10% of the salary that Joel Osteen just gave up. Our budget is less than $70K. 300 employees???? We don't even have 100 members. To each his own.
43 posted on 07/25/2005 2:34:08 AM PDT by Past Your Eyes (I don't care if it rains or freezes.)
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To: zzen01

I am a Roman Catholic and I watch Joel every weekend. Like my pastor at my church, Joel is a great man. Each week his message is loud and clear. "God has you in the palm of his hand..." On the weekend, I can catch him 3 or 4 times on TV.


44 posted on 07/25/2005 2:43:12 AM PDT by rambo316 (Peace Through Superior Firepower)
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To: fuquadukie
"Give me an old-fashioned Cathloic priest any day"---Gag me with a ______ (fill in the blank). My how the mighty have fallen. And none too soon, either.
45 posted on 07/25/2005 2:44:19 AM PDT by Past Your Eyes (I don't care if it rains or freezes.)
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To: maestro

Not sure your point.

I still consider Joel an enormously effective man of God. God is his judge.

But the good he is doing is obvious to anyone who watches closely. And, he's quite Biblical and responsible and sets high standards for himself and for individuals in his congregation.

His service on reaching out to others; the poor etc. in spontaneous acts of giving and doing for others was spot on.

Cheers, blessings,


46 posted on 07/25/2005 8:27:17 AM PDT by Quix (GOD'S LOVE IS INCREDIBLE . . . BUT MUST BE RECEIVED TO . . .)
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